BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

This terrifies me. The ditch strategy has to keep in mind cars...nevermind the road rash. Am curious what wisdom will spring forth here...

Lock it up, slide the rear wheel around and step off the bike. It's the best of a bad situation.

You will not be ok with just a rear brake in that situation. The harder you brake the more the rear wheel wants to lift. It does help to get your weight all the way back (like saddle on the chest back) but physics are physics.

Put head between legs.

Kiss ass good-bye.

I was in a fog one time and mounted my brake pads reversed (front and rear). So coming down Black St, I applied the brakes and instead of slowing, I accelerated. I avoided shooting into traffic by using my foot against the front tire. But I probably wasn't doing 30+ in the first place. With only the rear brake, the best you could do is try to control your speed enough to hit a gap in traffic, and maybe bang a hard right turn.

Keep your cables in good repair!

Henry Koerner was a famous artist who lived on Negley Hill - about halfway up on the left (going up) you can see his modern house with a beautiful stained glass door depicting two women.

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=1005+S+negley+Ave,+Pittsburgh,+PA&sll=40.448482,-79.928799&sspn=0.012116,0.020256&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=1005+S+Negley+Ave,+Pittsburgh,+Allegheny,+Pennsylvania+15232&ll=40.448335,-79.928713&spn=0,0.010128&z=16&layer=c&cbll=40.448426,-79.928783&panoid=HsAr3sWG5k9QepF6e_ckiA&cbp=12,52.57,,0,5

He wrote about having his brakes fail on Negley Hill and going down onto Fifth in the traffic -TWICE. It puzzled me - brakes tend to fail one at a time and it would be easy enough to ride to Dunmoyle and Negley and walk the last 50 feet to his house.

Henry Koerner died an untimely death July 4, 1991, as result of a hit-and-run accident while riding his bicycle with his wife Joan on the Danube River in Vienna.

I'm with Mayhew, lock it up and lean in like you're trying to do a 360. One of the tricks is using your upper body position to control your back wheels skidpath. You will get a feel for the exact point that you can just step off the bike and leave it on the road. My advice is to use an old steel frame MTB from the 90's to practice because they want to do it naturally when you lock the rear wheel.

Practice it about a million times until you are comfortable and you can stop on a dime in an emergency situation. This move has actually saved my life twice before.

this type of maneuver would be a prime candidate for a beginner's (intermediate?) riding class... I have no idea how to do what you guys are describing, and zero confidence that I'm even picturing it in my head correctly.

I just try to go slow enough on hills that scare me such that if I bail or go over the bars, I'll be banged up but probably alive (I think I went down Negly once, at a crawl, not gonna do it again). It's the hills (and roads) that _don't_ scare me that worry me the most.

I'm starting to have enough confidence and strength to get myself into situations that I lack the confidence and skill to get out of - and I know it.

I wore through three pairs of shoes due to bad brakes....But I did stop each and every time. Not always when I wanted to though.

One thing I did, was when I realized I couldn't stop, I managed to get to a curb (BEFORE I started going too fast), ran into it, and fell onto the sidewalk. If you're going slow enough to where you and your bike will make it unscathed, that's an option, too.

Yeah, I used to ride off-road a fair bit so I've had practice getting my weight all the way back. My hope was that I could at least get slowed down enough with the rear brake that whatever I had to do next wouldn't hurt as bad. But, I suppose it depends a lot on how much distance is before the intersection or nearest car.

I don't understand the "step off the bike" part - won't that lead to a faceplant? Or are you at a low enough angle (and sideways) so you end up sliding on your hip/butt?

In any case, I may have to reconsider my route... I know the chance of something going wrong is small, but I'm not sure I want to give fate hundreds of chances a year to decide it's my day.

You really just need to keep your mechanics in good repair and check things often. It's unlikely that in a sudden situation that you'll have the presence of mind to do anything.

I dumped it a couple years ago going down Negley hill, on a mountain bike, it was slightly damp, just barely grazed the brakes, and I was down in a millisecond, no skidding, no controlling it, nothing. Got a nice meaty bloody calf out of it, a friend I was with said the sparks were impressive.

If you are heading west from Negley at the bottom, you can consider Wilkins as an alternate. It would drop you a half mile to the west, onto Fifth. It has less grade than Negley, so cable snaps are less problematic.

Murray Hill is also a reasonable alternative to Negley, although the cobblestones may make sidewalk riding the preferred path. It's a block east of Negley. Steep, but not as heavily trafficked as Negley.

There is a nice road through Chatham College that provides an alternative to Negley as well. I think it is technically private, but I tend to view it as a "don't ask, don't tell" routing option. It sort of winds around through the beautiful campus, so there are no real steep sections, and lots of space for a "flying leap" if necessary in the case of a broken brake cable.

In the case of Murray Hill and the road through Chaham (Woodland?) I'd see them as better alternatives for the ride DOWN Negley.

Of course this does not get to the bottom of the the more generic question of "what to do when...."

I agree, maybe we need some training opportunities in this area.

@edmonds - after reading that i'm feeling extra lucky for not losing it this morning. that's the 3rd time in a week i've done something really dumb and thought "wow, that probably should have hurt".

@swalfoort - heading north/east. Wilkins the other way to Beechwood is probably my best option (and the opposite of my route home), but of course that involves climbing a hill I wouldn't otherwise have to - and especially in the AM I like to exert myself as little as possible so I don't get to work all sweaty. I've never ridden through Chatham - whether they'd mind or not, I don't know , but it is definitely a private road. I've certainly professed my sick love of riding up Murray Hill, but riding down that steep of a hill on cobbles scares me.

So, that's how I convinced myself that bombing down Negley every morning was the best way to go

If I'm not mistaken, this situation is the only acceptable time to "Ted Shred" it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OH5W1Z23wPg

riding through chatham has been the best part of many of my rides in the area - beautiful buildings, trees, a pond, nice pedestrians, slow moving everyone. If people start screaming through and knocking over the students, "private" will be enforced. But when I'm in a hurry, wilkins is my preferred Negley alternative.

In my car, I've practiced skidding and fishtailing, I know how fast my breaks will stop me on a variety of surfaces, and how sharp a turn I can make at various speeds. On my bike, I've never pushed limits, because I don't like to bleed and casts are itchy. I'd love to test myself under controlled conditions in ways that aren't garanteed to turn my legs into meatloaf (bruises and scrapes I'm ok with, typical markers of "fun"). I'm guessing I'm not the only one.

"I'd love to test myself under controlled conditions in ways that aren't garanteed to turn my legs into meatloaf (bruises and scrapes I'm ok with, typical markers of "fun")."

This is what mountain biking is for.

Salty, you ever see anybody quad slide a skateboard down a huge hill? It's a similar concept I suppose

Basically turn your bike 180 and shove off as hard as you can at the correct angle and you can slow your inertia much faster than conventional stopping. And if you are going fast enough that you have to hit the ground as well, you end up hitting it much in the same way that motorcycle racers are taught to dump a bike. I.e. not getting tangled up with the bike / more even distribution of your body to the ground.

And like I said, much smoother and easier with knobby tires. A bit more sketchy on road slicks from what I've experienced.

@ejwme In my car, I've practiced skidding and fishtailing

On a bike, I've practice panic stopping - getting up speed, usually on a slight downhill, and then slamming the brakes on. If you do it until you know the feel of the back wheel leaving the pavement, that's good. Of course, it won't help in a brake failure.

The other thing I occasionally practice is looking behind me while riding on a straight line. Right now, that is a skill I need to tune up.

Every bike I buy, I go up Negley on it - but I don't think I've gone down Negley on a bike even once. There are better ways to get where you are going.

also, Ted Shred is pretty funny, does he know how much more expensive Vans are as opposed to brake pads?

This is what mountain biking is for.

Yep. Your handling skills improve quite a bit flying through the woods dodging trees and rocks. You learn how to fall real good too.

If you ever watch a professional road race, some of the best descenders (dudes that fly down the mountain roads and switchbacks the fastest) are often ex-mountain bikers. They know their limits and can pick a line just a little bit better than the rest of the guys that rarely leave the pavement.

+1 dwillen, soooooooooooooooooooooooo glad I rode single track for years before I ever touched a road bike

looking behind is a problem for me - when I wear contacts, peripheral glances have in the past done just fine. When I wear my glasses, my peripheral vision is not adequate for me to tell land from sky, so I end up doing a double take if there are no lights, just to make sure. Mirrors are in my not-to-distant future. But riding for long periods while looking behind... that seems like tempting road debris in front of me to punish my hubris (I'm picturing ARB inbound where I like to move to make the left onto Washington).

edited to add - but those are the reasons I've eschewed mtb, same reason I don't like downhill skiing - trees are scary and violent when I move fast. I guess I'll have to glimpse the dark side of pain if I want to learn to bike on the edge.

Now that I recall, I think my mistake was that I got onto the center of the lane where all the oil and crap from the engine falls, instead of being in one of the clean wheel-tracks. There's a little pointer for the kids right there. Really, I think it had less traction than ice.

I've had the unpleasant experience of hurtling down a hill too fast in a car and have the brakes fail. I managed to get down to about 15 mph by the stop sign at the T intersection at the bottom, and nearly turned the car over hanging a really hard right turn onto the right shoulder. Ever since then, I've had a fear of plummeting down hills too fast on any sort of wheeled object, with any number of wheels.

On bicycle, when descending a hill, I scope out places I can get off the road without a faceplant or grinding my skin off. I think about aiming for a hedge or bush, instead of less forgiving ditches, trees and parked vehicles.

+1 on making sure your brakes are in good shape. I start off every ride with a brief, steep descent. If I cannot come to a complete stop with my least capable brake by the stop sign at the bottom of the hill, I go back and take another bike.

for about 2 weeks last winter, I had to walk down hills. My old mountain bike from last winter serves as a cautionary tale about keeping your brakes in working condition - especially cables/housing. That thing was a deathtrap.

@ejwme looking behind is a problem for me

Find an empty parking lot - or any surface with a painted line and no cars.

Ride down the line and glance behind you then back - and check out how close to the line you stay. Then look longer and longer, until you are looking back more than you will ever need to in traffic. 5 minutes a day on 3 different days will change how you can ride in traffic.

@spak i think you meant 90 - although I guess if you can pull the 180 then you can just pedal to slow down

definitely that move is going to take some practice though - plus screwing it up or hitting a pothole/curb/etc could lead to some truly spectacular tumbles. i don't see many better options, but i think the risk of going over the top is high enough that i'd try to lay it down as quickly as possible.

i think the real answer is not to let yourself build up too much speed... damn, being safe is never any fun

@ejwme It's not a move any one practices. It's something you learn a few times riding off road or BMX and getting in over your head. There's almost no way you could teach that in a class.

Also, may I recommend 'cross to everyone in this thread? Great way to learn really good handling skills in a very low risk environment.

I did buy a 'cross bike... I'm sure it's mad at me for limiting it to roads and road-like trails.

Mick - I meant merely that when I have glasses on, I literally have tunnel vision due to my eyes being more decorative than functional and my glasses being small (limits coke-bottle effect AND peripheral vision). Thus it's an experiment in contortion, less an experiment in steering - I'm not so bad at the steering bit.

If your in trees and you need to make an emergency stop you can just reach out and grab a tree trunk with your gloved hands, then the bike just goes wherever it goes and you spin around the trunk some.

@boazo - sounds like a Jackie Chan technique.

Slight threadjack here but I was once walking up Negley and a guy on roller blades appeared at the top of the hill and started down. He was flying and when he got to the driveway to the apartment building on the corner he tried to steer in there, he made the turn but couldn't hold it, continued at high speed toward the curb of the parking lot, hit the curb and flew into the air, hands and head first, and sprawled down the hillside. It was spectacular to watch (I wondered if there was a camera crew nearby it was so perfectly movie- stunt-like). Guy seemed to be okay though..he landed on grass.

sounds like a Jackie Chan technique

Unless you've worked on Hong Kong fight movies or in the circus though, I wouldn't advise grabbing a signpost at 25 mph going down a hill, not if you value the attachment of your arm and your shoulder.

We developed that technique when me and my brother were at a ski area on rented bikes. They have some vey rocky single tracks there and it was just an instinctive reaction to a tricky situation. I wasn't going near road speeds though, but it worked really well and was a whole bunch of fun. If you were to try it ... just visualize a football on your selected tree trunk at about shoulder level, then reach out and grab it and hold on !