BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Damn, I am out of my troll food, anyone else have any?

To that end, Callie, your first post here should introduce yourself, not try and bring up an argument that is clearly one sided. I believe the Introductions thread is easy enough to find.

Traffic always crawls on the motor vehicle bridge so wah.

While that is rather silly of them to ride across that part of the bridge, don't cyclists legally have the right to use the traffic lane anyway?

The few times that I have taken the Hot Metal Bridge by bike since the ped bridge opened I have had to sit in car traffic... total bummer. If my biker comrades blew through the light at the end you probably would have been waiting there anyway... and you didn't have to sit behind them enduring a couple minutes of biker fumes, so at least you have that going for you.

You're welcome to take the ped. bridge whenever you want though, no traffic guaranteed! (Actually yesterday I had to stop for 20 seconds to stare at a baby bird, I was totally pissed)

(I love trolls :-* :-* :-*)

I also know from the posts on here that every cyclist is perfect and always follows the rules

even giving you the benefit of a doubt and assuming you are not a troll...

your reading comprehension sucks.

While that is rather silly of them to ride across that part of the bridge, don't cyclists legally have the right to use the traffic lane anyway?

Yep. And, if one is heading towards Greenfield Ave/Irvine St/Glenwood/etc. in heavy traffic, making the right off the bridge seems safer to me than making the left across traffic from the trailhead.

Restricting my riding surface roads in favor of adjacent bike paths makes about as much sense as restricting automobiles to adjacent freeways. Sometimes, the dedicated roadway isn't the correct one for your purposes.

There is a sign that says "no stopping" and yet cars are always stopped on that bridge. Jerks.

the other day i had to walk in the street because some car was parked on the sidewalk. i mean they just spent all this money for you to park for free on the street, and you still gotta park on the sidewalk.

seeing posts like this makes me believe bike pgh has really "made it". congrats, guys!

Restricting my riding surface roads in favor of adjacent bike paths makes about as much sense as restricting automobiles to adjacent freeways.

I actually like the sound of that - restricting the cars that is

i wasn't one of the riders, but callie is right and i am wrong. obviously.

Whoa is this group militant, reminds me of the union I used to belong too.

If you want the driving public on your side you cannot keep getting in their face by not following law. You are not going to get them to switch to riding bikes vrs their cars for various reasons (their too old, it's not convenient, takes too long, etc). When cyclists go through red lights/stop signs, jump from the street to the sidewalk, cause traffic to snarl, etc. It just reinforces bad blood in the driving public. There are more of them than there are of us. We need to police are own ranks. I do not want to harassed by some driver who’s mad at some cyclist who broke the law.

Come on you know there out there. Why do you ignore them?

I too sense that callie is a troll, but the take-away for us here, IMHO, is:

- The general public does not understand that a bicycle going 20mph is not going any slower than a car going 20mph.

- The general public does not understand that a bicycle is entitled to the full lane.

- The general public does not understand that a bicycle is not obligated to use a parallel trail.

- The general public does not understand that a person on a bicycle regularly can see and hear better what is going on at an intersection (i.e., "Idaho rules" make sense). (callie, if you are reading this, read this, Section 49-720 #1 and #2.)

So, @caitlin, yes, we've made our presence known, now the big project is to somehow get the general public educated.

i'm having deja vu

http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/idiot-biker-giving-us-a-bad-reputation-hot-metal

starting out with your first post with a statement like this: I also know from the posts on here that every cyclist is perfect and always follows the rules but isn't going to make friends. when they respond, it doesn't mean that they are militant.

I think callie that you are combining two separate incidents to complain about what you consider to be scoflaw cyclists. It is legal for bikes to ride across the automobile hot metal bridge. Traffic is slow there all the time. No one here is defending them running the light, but I guarantee that I could sit at that intersection and count dozens of cars per hour that run that same light. Again I am not defending the behavior, but why should it be treated any different that a car running the light.

I would have no problem of police pulling over the cyclist to give them a ticket if they ran the light. But I am curious, do you always stay under the speed limit? Do you always come to a complete stop at all stop signs? Do you always signal when changing lanes and making turns?

I also wish more cyclists would do a better job of obeying traffic rules. I for one do always stop at lights. I also signal when making turns. I try to be a good cyclist, but yes there are those out there who dont care, just like there are drivers that dont care. One major difference tho, bikes dont weigh 5000lb and go 60+ mph.

What do you suggest? Break our our u-locks and beat them senseless for preventing you from reaching the red light 30 seconds earlier? What does your rant accomplish?

Running traffic control devices is stupid under almost all circumstances. Unfortunately, nobody has provided me the police-our-own-ranks ticket book yet.

I should add that many of the newer lights in Pittsburgh have sensors that bicycles are unable to trip. If the bikes were stopped over this sensor (where they legally should stop) it would prevent the light from changing for both them, and the line of cars behind them.

There is a light like this next to Schenley plaza that I routinely have to run if there isn't a car ahead of me to trigger it. I've sat there 10 minutes before with a car waiting 12 feet behind me. All the waving and motioning for the car to move up to where the sensor is just gets me dumb looks. Its easier for all involved if I stop, look both ways, and make my way through when it is clear, as I am legally allowed to do for a malfunctioning traffic light.

Bicyclists need to be more accommodating to automobiles to get them on our side. We have to be perfect because each one of us is representing all cyclists. One jerk on two wheels ruins it all for the rest of us. Anyone who says otherwise is a militant. Same old tired canards.

@dwillen - i rode down one wild place yesterday and was going to make the left onto butler. i couldn't trip the sensor and i waited at least 10 minutes for a car to come up behind me. i just went when it was clear.

i kinda felt bad about it, but not so bad because i have seen cars blow stop signs when they don't see anyone around or think it's too early or late in the day for there to possibly be traffic. a few of us actually saw two cars go speeding through a stop sign near/on hamilton? yesterday.

hey guys, i know you're all idiots and jerks, but i'm totally dumbfounded as to why you don't like the foolish gibberish i'm spewing!

@stu: Good list, but I'd add "The general public does not understand that the local cycling community is made up of individuals, and is no more capable of 'policing itself' than the automotive community is."

@dwillen, @stefb

Sometimes there's no car behind but you still need to stop cross-traffic. At Schenley Plaza I push the pedestrian crossing button to get the lights to change. Ideally you would have a button for cyclists on the street side of the pole. Someday.

@ Come on you know there out there. Why do you ignore them?

So its OK for car drivers to ignore the law ? Almost all drive over the speed limit ! So you pick the laws you want to obey ? Cars can easily kill a bicyclist by speeding but a bicyclist isn't very likely to kill or hurt a person in a car by going thru a stop sign. Its a much greater foul to speed in a car than to run a stop sign on a bike. Its such a great difference and its one that car drivers don't even seem to comprehend. You're living in some imaginary world where you take no responsibility for your actions .... Oil Spill - Climate Crises also come to mind. Yet you complain about a bike running a stop sign, maybe that messes up your sense of order. A sense of order where your first and foremost.

@dan: i don't think it's safe to say that we've all learned that yet.

i think everyone should be forced to ride a bike in the city during rush hour for a week.

the idea that anything said in this thread is "militant" is mind boggling.

In my humble opinion, and at risk of being viewed as a "troll" myself, I want to give Callie the benefit of the doubt. It's a big risk putting an opinion out there on this board, for just the reasons exampled here. He/she may have made some presumptions and generalizations and he/she may be mistaken. But it serves us little to beat her down.

Many of the comments in response are considerate and measured and constructive. Many are frustrated. And I understand both. But as someone who relatively new here, who wants to add to the discussion, I urge the board to cut some slack from time to time.

It didn't sound to me like Callie was picking a fight. He/she may have chosen his/her words injudiciously. But this is a medium that punishes subtlety and scrubs away sophistication. We ought to be more welcoming of opinions that may not fully align with our own. We may learn something from the ensuing discourse, and so may the "offender."

@stefb I agree!!! I think that if 'drivers' got out of the car and went in the road as cyclists, they would understand how unsafe and stupid they can be.... and this goes as personal experience! I know I've become a better/safer driver when I do drive since I started cycling.

And whatever..... I don't think that anyone in here thinks that even 10% of drivers follow the rules:

Tuesday I was almost ran-over by a car running a red light on Butler and 44th street. I was stopped at the red light with another car. When the light turned green I started cycling, when practically out-of-nowhere comes a blue SUV (or similar) 'running' to make the now non-existent green or even yellow light on its path..... I reacted by hitting my breaks big time, causing me to slide and topple over the bike and almost falling with it. As I could I moved to the sidewalk with my bike so I could double in pain as it was rightfully needed...... lacerated my lower pelvis where I hit the bike with it (thank God I'm not a guy, 'cause they would have probably lost their 'family jewels' in there).

In summary.... I'm fine, laceration healing, just still sore.

Stupid SUV car never even flinched, or stopped to see if I was fine -heck! Not even the car that could have been hit along with me stopped to see if I was ok after I moved off the road. I personally felt kind-of stupid sitting in there, so as soon as I could I got back on my bike and rode home a couple of blocks away.

There is really nothing that I could have done to avoid this accident -in fact, I think that I did everything I was supposed to, and that is why I wasn't hit by the stupid SUV.

I will admit that when traffic appears clear, I do 'yield' on red lights and just 'slow down' when coming to a Stop sign. While it might not be a 100% correct, I only do this when traffic is light, when the intersection is clear, or when I think that if I get ahead abit, the cars next/behind me would have an easier time moving along. When there is alot of traffic I do full-stops at both red lights and stop signs. And what I always do --regardless, is scan any intersection I approach before I go through it (which I think saved me this time).

So... sorry.... my rant, and sorry for stealing this thread.

It is true that there are cyclists out there that I do think ride dangerously not only to their detriment, but to the exarberation of drivers as well. But before you start throwing rocks --Callie-- think hard how many times have you been 'slowed down' on traffic due to asswhipe drivers not following the rules, and home many times have those been due to a gun-ho cyclists...... I bet you the asswhipes win in this one.

There, done...

bikeygirl, do you ever use plummer street instead? i often just cut down there to avoid that stretch of butler, then when plummer ends, it's at the wider section of butler

Bikeygirl, you should take your story to the SUV forums. Start it out saying you are an avid motorist.

Erok: Nope I don't..... I know that side-streets might be safer, but I truly think that by taking Butler Street -a more busy street- I am doing my part to get drivers used to have to share the road with cyclists.... it might be stupid, but I do it that way because I think is more helpful as a whole.

That intersection usually has my awesome Crossing Guard friend, but she's in summer vacation

@ALMKLM: it can be tricky to share viewpoints that the majority of a community disagree with, but it's far from impossible. but this thread started out with immediate condescension, and it's hard to look past it for any merit. in my experience on teh internets, it's not worth even trying, because the person isn't looking for a constructive dialog. the best course, then, is to not engage and just have some fun with it.

it's really not difficult to express a viewpoint without coming across as a pompous jerk, unless you are one. you don't even have to try. it leads me to believe that the original poster is either a pompous jerk or was deliberately trying to come across as one, i.e. trolling.

@bikeygirl: Ouch! glad you're fine, but sorry to hear about being lacerated. (hurts to even type that.) And then no one stopping to ask if you were ok? What's the matter with people? Sorry again.

Isn’t there a sign before the Hot Metal that says no pedestrians on the bridge? I guess this could be the source of confusion with this caller.

There is also a sign at the end of the ped bridge that says no bikes on sidewalk, the very sidewalk you need to ride over to get off the bridge. I guess cyclists should just swim?

But then the boat operators would register an account here to call us out for holding up their river passage.

@HV: Fair enough.

She did toss some chum out there I guess.

@ALMKLM: If "callie" would have introduced herself first, I think the whole discussion would have gone differently.

@ndromb: Agreed.

@Dwillen ... haha funny you

I'm mostly fine, walking abit like a cowboy, but fine. And yes, more than the physical pain, that's what hurt the most: no one stopping to at least ask if I was ok.... oh well.... everyone be safe!

@ bikeygirl - i did this once on my mt bike cause for some reason i had my front suspension off while going through a rock garden. it does hurt. hope you feel better

Callie Whoa is this group militant, reminds me of the union I used to belong too.

You need your social monitor callibrated, Callie.

This group is not particularly militant. It is also nothing like a union.

I think that for the most part it is silly to ride across the car part of the HMB, but bicyclists have a right to.

Callie, it is intersting that you found it so irritating that you took the time to post here. Your total delay was what? Maybe 30 or 40 seconds?

How long is it compared to the time you took to post your complaint?

How does that compare to how much time you spent the last time you waited for a suburbanite to parallel park? Did your find some place to write a complaint about that?

Now, IMO, I would ahve no problem with the appropriate road authorities posting a "No bikes on bridge," for the car part of the HMB. But as long as they have not, there is no reason for cyclists to avoid it.

Thanks stefb

Well said Mick. I still think the current situation with the Hot Metal Bridge, American Eagle, bikes riding on the street-side, etc. all stems from the simple fact that while the bike-ped bridge is well-designed, the access points at either end are NOT. The traffic signals at Second Ave. and Water St. are both very unfriendly to cyclists, hence why some cyclists still prefer to ride on the street-side of the Hot Metal Bridge. Personally, I think there needs to be some sort of stopping mechanism for cars that want to turn right onto Water St. after crossing the bridge. As for the Second Avenue side I am not sure what could be done to improve it.

What could potentially compound this issue in the near future is Bates Street Access. From interning in the City Planning Dept. I've learned that the planned new Eliza Furnace Trail Bridge over Bates will physically eliminate any sort of access ramp in the vicinity of the current unofficial (read: dirt) path to Bates Street. And as of this writing I do believe there is no contingency to install a new path at this location. What this means is that all pedestrian and cycling traffic from Bates intending on accessing Hot Metal will have to cross Second Ave at street level as opposed to the brand-new overpass that connects to the trail.

I wanted to raise this issue to all on the board here including the heads of Bike PGH and to hopefully gauge their sentiment. I personally access the trail from this point frequently to go from my apartment in Oakland to the South Side and I'm sure many in Oakland (bikes and peds) also do the same. My current hopes is that the plans will take this into account and try to accommodate it via a new ramp or path in the area between the trail and Second Ave. This is not a game-changer for sure, but something I feel people should be aware of and aren't likely to be happy about.

Sorry to cause such a problem. I ride to from Penn Hills to Oakland a couple times a week. It aggravates me to see other cyclists making it tougher for me by flying through traffics signals and pissing off drivers that I then have to deal with. I fell like a democrat calling Rush Limbaugh's talk show on this message board. I can't believe there is no one out there that understood what I was trying say.. It wasn't the xtra 30 sec on the bridge. It was that we got great addition to cycling with the bridge so we all can be safer and not agitate motorists and then some people ignore it. I know I know we have the right to whatever we want.

callie, welcome to the board. I think you would be welcomed by all, if we had a chance to talk to you and get to know you.

July 23 is a ways off, but I invite you to join us for our next Flock Of Cycles ride. I suggest you go to this thread and see the various links on my post, about 4th down, in particular my May 21 blog post about FoC. I think it speaks directly to what you just posted, above.

I can't believe there is no one out there that understood what I was trying say.

it's not that no one got your point, it's that no one cared what you had to say because you said it so poorly.

incidentally, this thread makes me want to share two things. thing 1) the bike lane on forbes outbound from dallas through the park is more harmful than helpful. i used to just take the lane, stay near the speed of traffic, and expect people to go around. now i have to dodge manhole covers, debris, and the occasional giant plant sticking out into the traffic lane. or risk getting yelled at because i'm not using the bike lane.

thing b) i seriously doubt the validity of the idea that idiot cyclists do a lot of damage to the efforts of the rest of us. the people who complain about "scofflaw cyclists" already really don't get it, and their tune wouldn't change if we eliminated the idiots. and they're probably not the problem anyway. sure it drives us batty when drivers think we don't belong on the road, but they'll always be around; they're minds aren't changing. the biggest solvable problem, in my opinion, are the drivers who do dangerous things unknowingly. and bad examples won't hurt that cause.

Come on you know there out there. Why do you ignore them?

Bike Pittsburgh, the organization most of belong to don't ignore them at all actually. They are doing a lot to educate cyclists but they can only do so much. If your not already you should consider becoming a member. Your donation helps them reach more cyclists.

Welcome to the board, where not everyone will agree with your point of view and 99.999% of us are not militant.

i seriously doubt the validity of the idea that idiot cyclists do a lot of damage to the efforts of the rest of us. the people who complain about "scofflaw cyclists" already really don't get it, and their tune wouldn't change if we eliminated the idiots.

For evidence of this all you have to do is look at great cycling cities like Portland or San Francisco.

@callie - I know exactly what you mean - when I used to sit in traffic on the parkway on a daily basis, I often wondered why traffic was crawling along too. The weird thing is they don't allow bicycles there, so I never could figure out what the problem was.

Anyways, the day that motorists start worrying about not agitating cyclists is the day I start worrying about not agitating motorists. My #1 priority is safety, but #2 is being a courteous road user, yet drivers still get agitated. Drivers are in a perpetual state of agitation regardless - cyclists are just an easy target. If there's no cyclists around they find other drivers to get mad at.

Not that it's any justification for cyclists breaking the law, but the percentage of drivers that follow the law is approximately 0% - where's your outrage about that?

Callie - another cyclist from Penn Hills?!?!?*claps hands and squeals with glee* Hi!! Dbacklover is also from Penn Hills. That's awesome. There are at least three of us! YAY! (PM me if you're interested in helping get bikelanes/sharrows/trails in PH)

Hidden Variable and rsprake - while in general, I think you're right, there is definitely a sizeable contingent of motorists who see cyclists breaking the law with seeming impunity and get riled/scared enough that they extend that rile/fear to cyclists at large, and don't think anybody should ride on the road. I get it a LOT from suburbanites with commutes, but I always point out that I wait with traffic, take my turn, come to complete stops, signal turns, take the shoulder when I'm crawling and it's safe, AND the scofflaws irritate me too. Invariably a discussion ensues, and they get so confused. I'm crossing the us vs. them barrier and they don't know what to think, but they don't think what they thought before.

There are some "get off the road" idiots, true, but they're not using the scofflaws as a real excuse. More like another shovel of dung on the steaming pile they're trying to angrily swallow. But there are people who are genuinely scared of the scofflaws causing accidents. Ten seconds of engagement will tell the difference.

ejwme, I think you're talking about people driving cars, and I am talking about people riding bikes. Either way, engaging people in the middle of traffic is never productive.

Did you guys hear about the traffic jam at the Squirrel Hill Tunnels today? There were helicopters overheard from at least one, possibly two news organizations reporting on it live from the scene. I missed the conclusion of the report, but I'd assume it was because a cyclist was taking up the whole entire lane.

Callie, think about it: you came anonymously onto a board full of regulars (most of who are friends) and attacked us--you should not be surprised by the outcome.

Once again, I URGE you to introduce yourself here.

I think after you do that, your thoughts will be better received.

I agree with you that there are a lot of not-so-great cyclists out there. I was almost hit by one on my bike last week, and almost had two collisions with two different bikers in my car on Monday.

The thing is, when you look at road usage issue as a whole, bikes are the least significant problem.

EDIT: fixed the link

Actually, I think ndromb meant here. (wrong sticky topic)

I'm stealing this thread one more time....

I think I know why I was almost ran over by a car on Monday at Butler St and 44Th.... I just realized that's a one-way street, and the car was going THE WRONG WAY!!!!!

Now it makes sense the speeding, running the red light, and not stopping to see if I was ok..

Driver = FAIL

There are so many wonderful things about this board, it's really great that it's here. At the same time, stuff comes up on it that makes me really uncomfortable. I've sat here for way too long trying to decide whether or not to address this latest one, and have finally decided to take a shot at it.

There are some good, valid, non-condemnable reasons that a person can need a level of anonymity/privacy/etc. This is a forum that anyone can read online - I think it's pretty understandable that a person might not want to put their name/picture/identifying information on the introductions thread. I know that my own obstacles to doing that aren't things I'd even want (or be able to) discuss in an open forum like this one.

I'm not assuming/implying Callie can't do it; I don't know her. But when I see her being pressured to do something that I'd be in bad shape if I tried to do, I feel like I'd be kind of a jerk not to speak up.

And I know, there were alot of problems with her approach - the backlash against them is understandable. But if she wants to get to a better place here, I'd like to see her have the opportunity to do it just by accumulating a series of positive interactions over time. Not that she has to - she may have introduced herself by the time I finish typing this. But the push for it is making me uneasy.

I wanted to post this, but not draw a huge amount of attention to it, which is why I didn't create a new thread. I'm a bit nervous that I'll get responses that you have to identify yourself in order to be a part of the community or something like that. But people have a basic need for human engagement, and it's a wonderful thing when they can get that in an area of their interests. I'd really like to feel that people are welcome here regardless of limitations they may have in this way.

Yeah, Callie, whomever you are, please don't be driven off by the figurative pitchforks and torches, come on back in and join the conversation.

You just happen to have walked in and stepped right on an old trigger that's been a sensitive issue WITHIN cycling for 40 years, maybe more, i.e., when cycling specific facilities are provided, do they give motorists the perception that cyclists must use the facilities and notbe on the road.

Way back in the '70's the Cleveland area where I was growing up installed a bike path system in the Metroparks. I was a hard core road rider, and a typical days ride involved 3 or 4 hours at 20 to 25 mph, completely unsuitable for mixing with the doddling traffic on an 8 foot wide mixed use path. I would get a lot of "get on the path!", I would just ignore it, maybe even draft the vehicle for a few miles, after all, the speed limit was 25, most people would drive 35 or 40, just perfect for a little speed training.

That's kind of an aside, but a little background as to the land mine you inadvertently stepped on. So, welcome.

@edmonds - did you ride to work yesterday? Orange bike parked outside the Law and Finance Building much of the day. Looked like yours, but hada couple of stickers on the top tube, I think.

I saw two people biking over the hot metal bridge around 7:45 last night. I gave them a thumbs up. There were zero cars behind them.

I think it's pretty understandable that a person might not want to put their name/picture/identifying information on the introductions thread.

Not putting on pics or identifiable stuff is understandable. But a person could introduce themselves by saying "Hi! I'm (ObviousFakeName). I'm an 64 year-old woman who rides from Munhall to Oakmont everyday." Or some such. Although, I'm guessing there wouldn't be a lot of 64 year-olds with that route to chose from, so it could be a little IDing.

BTW, I haven't figured out how to get a pic of me up (although other people have put pics of me up) and I haven't posted in any introductions thread. No particular reason. Just haven't.

I think the point is, many (most?) of us know you Mick. Nobody knows randomranter336 when they register and begin trolling for arguments.

We had a bunch of trolls after the media coverage of Don's death and the ghost bike. People registered, posted a few things to stir the pot, then poof, gone. People popped up out of nowhere for the east liberty beatings. Same thing happened after Mike Pintek said he wanted to run over cyclists. Suddenly we had some of his interns trolling the board for juicy quotes, then after the show airs, they vanish.

A little introduction goes a long way. Post your pseudonym, tell us you lived in Pittsburgh for X years and you ride your bike to work twice a week. There are more vague introductions in the intro thread. Nobody asked for a last name, phone number, address. Photos (many of which don't even have a face!) are entirely optional.

I've wondered about the appropriateness of the Long Overdue Introductions Thread myself from time to time. The first 3 or 4 pages cover the regulars on the board, and roughly half of them contain photos from the first Flock Of Cycles ride that had just been posted by robjdlc.

Those posts are hilarious to read, but to a complete newbie, whether troll or serious, that might come across as less than welcoming.

@dwillen (and a little @mick, sort of mixed together):

I understand what you're saying about people who are only here to troll. And when someone gets off to a bad start, it can be hard to tell if that's all it is or if they're messing with us. If an introduction makes you feel better about assuming they're genuine, and if they're ok with posting one, then great. Still, I think people have to feel comfortable not doing it.

I want to clarify - it seems like I gave the impression that when I said I thought there were valid reasons that I was only talking about not wanting to be identified. There are others, but nothing I'm enthusiastic about naming here. You mentioned some things you felt a person should be able to include without issue. My feeling is that a person should be able to share whichever things about themselves they feel comfortable sharing, and be able to keep other things to themselves as they need to. And to be able to do it in a context they feel ok about. If that turns out to be just having conversations in the posts, I think that should be ok. We don't ever really know another person's situation entirely, so saying "just do this" can be kind of shaky ground.

And really, I should drop the issue of Callie entirely now - at this point I'm responding for my own sake. I want to feel ok being here. If anyone feels like I need to be more real for them to be comfortable, you can always PM me. Maybe we can go for a ride.

bikefind - you've got a good point.

Communities are made of individuals. While there's some consistency (i.e. we tend to all have cycling in our lives), we do retain our individuality even though we've joined the community. Some people lurk. Some people are private. Some people post their naked hearts out.

Callie touched a nerve, intentionally or not. It's easier for the community to forgive touching a nerve when you know the person. My fiance accidentally stomps on my foot and breaks my toe, I pout and demand pancakes until it's healed. Complete stranger does it, I may use the good foot to return the favor.

I think the "introduce yourself" pressure was the community's way of trying to vet a potential troll and give her a small amount of leeway, trying to put out the flames. Members of the community who are simply private but involved, provided they avoid the nerves (which involvement has taught them where they are), shouldn't have any trouble remaining private without any pressure. There's no required profile information. There's no "mandatory" in the sticky thread subject.

I first posted here using a few years ago under a different name, and felt verbally beat up by the responses. So I also hestitate to really introduce myself, but may do so at some point.

For the record, I saw quite a few cars run stop signs and red lights yesterday- anyone know where their forum is so I can complain?

@helen Haha! Let me know if you find a forum for complaining about cars! I think that alot of us will have plenty to post there

Also, sorry if I might have "verbally beat-you up" in my previous post..... to hear someone complaint about a cyclist on the road after I was almost ran over by a car running a red light while going the wrong way on the street, really made me upset -_-

Peace

@bikefind: I have a strict policy in life--if you aren't willing to put your name on it, you shouldn't say/do it.

If you want anonymity online, fine. However, you cannot be upset when no one takes you seriously--especially on a board where most of the posters have met each other in person.

ndromb?

That sounds really cruel to me.

I think it's uninformed - there really are reasons that have nothing to do with saying/doing things that you wouldn't take pride in and stand behind if that were an issue.

And I had no idea that no one took me seriously.

And, I've met lots of posters here. Volunteered with some of them, rode with some of them, one I've known for over ten years.

I would like a chance to meet you in person too. I would like to try to explain myself to you and hopefully convince you that I'm not just screwing around, that even though I can't have certain types of exposure, that my life, my relating of pieces of it here, my concerns and stories, they're all valid and not deserving of dismissal for lack of a name tag etc.

I have to leave now, but I'll PM you when I get back online. I hope we can talk and make this better than it is.

@ ndromb - That 's a little bit harsh. I think any poster who consistently posts relatively reasonable posts should be taken seriously.

(Thanks robjdlc)

Ps Yins all think I'm a middle-aged dude. Actually I'm a pair of 19 year-old, red-headed, twin sisters looking for a threesome and waiting for you to send your pic and credit card number, now!

Cruel? Come on.

I didn't say it you shouldn't be taken seriously, and I didn't say anything you say should be disregarded--you are putting words in my mouth.

My comment wasn't aimed at you at all. My point was, if you come on this board and your first post is to complain about something without telling us anything else about yourself, you probably are not going to be taken seriously.

Furthermore, if you know so many of the members, then what is the big deal about having your name on the internet? After all, you are no long anonymous...

I stand by what I said. It is my policy, and I never said anyone else should adopt it, but I think it is something everyone should think about.

Mick, I know you aren't some middle aged dude....

I agree with ndromb

A forum, especially a local forum is going to be like that. the internet is a place where it is too easy to say whatever you feel like and not care about the consequences.

The fact of the matter is if you choose to hide your identity, for whatever reason, then it is up to you to realize that in doing so you have chosen to make it harder for people to

1. take you seriously

2. belive what you say

3. think of you as something other than a troll

now I am not saying that someone who hides who they are is a troll, or a dishonest or anything like that, all I'm saying is that when you do hide your identity it is then up to you to convince the people on the board that you are serious, and not a troll.

Actually all of us have to prove that with our actions and words, it just becomes harder to prove it when you hide your identity.

Take it into real life.

if someone called you on the phone and started telling you things, and you had no idea who they were, a complete stranger, would you take what they say seriously or with a grain of salt?

everyone on the forums has the responsability to build up their own trustworthyness. we all do it by the things we do on the forums. by the items we choose to get involved with and by the items we choose not to get involved with.

Sorry for the long post but having spent a long time on forums on the internet (and bbs, yes im old enough to pre-date the internet) I have seen this happen over and over again. you have to treat the internet like it is real life. i.e. what would you say if we were all sitting together at a table at a local diner. if you wouldn't say it there, then don't say it here. That is my general rule and has kept me out of a good 90% of the flaming/trolling that goes on.

I still get sucked in sometimes but I try very hard not to.

i generally assume that there is no anonymity anywhere at anytime, ever. hiding behind a screen name does you no good if someone really wants to figure out who you are, so i just don't bother.

I've posted here a few times, but I was really surprised at the response to Callie. It had a chilling effect on me and will make me much more reluctant to add my views here.

A couple reasons why I haven't posted on the introduction thread:

I am a recreational/fitness biker and I get the feeling that if you don't commute on a bike your opinion is not valued as much here.

This seems to be a much more hard core group and can be intimitading.

Also, there are over 200 posts on the introduction thread. Does anyone really take the time to read through them?

And you can post completely false information there as well.

All that said, did anyone see the story Sally Wiggin did last night on bicycling. I thought it was pretty balanced, but she should have checked on the ghost bike. She used file video of it, but apparently never checked to see if it was still there.

http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/24129982/detail.html

I believe Callie got the response she did because of the smart ass comments she made. Referring to her comments "about how all motorists are jerks. I also know from the posts on here that every cyclist is perfect and always follows the rules". That just reeks of sarcasm, tells me that the person is not looking for a discussion but just looking to rant, and doesn't exactly give a good first impression, regardless if she had introduced herself in the intro thread or not.

So in other Hot Metal Bridge news, riding across it last night was a lesson in how not to swallow bugs while biking.

@dbacklover-

I think that alot of what you're saying is true, these things that we'd all probably like to have (things related to being taken seriously) are harder if we don't make it directly clear who we are. Harder, but not impossible. Or it shouldn't be impossible anyway.

You're making me feel the need to reiterate, though, that sticking with a forum handle, rather than one's name, doesn't have to have anything to do with the kinds of things you say. I don't think I've said anything on the board that I wouldn't say to someone's face. I'm actually a little more cautious here since I know not everyone knows me and would nec appreciate my sick sense of humor. So I feel that I do treat it like real life.

And I want to answer your question about the stranger calling. If someone called me and said "you don't know me, but I need someone to talk to, because I'm having a really hard time and need someone to listen," I'd actually do it. I tend to take people as though they're genuine until I have a reason to have to reject that idea. On the other hand, if the person called and said, "You don't know me, but I need you to go and stand on the corner of Forbes and Murray and wait for a guy named Joe" I'd wish them luck with that and get back to whatever I was doing. If they called and insulted me, I'd probably just hang up, unless they started apologizing and explaining themselves quickly and start building something positive to work with.

Another thing about anonymity: we're throwing that word around and I think there are levels of that. There's a difference between choosing a non-identifying forum handle and then using it every time you have something to post, vs setting up scads of new accounts so you can be really unknown. The first lets people get to know you, develop a familiarity that I don't feel is terribly hindered by lack of a copy of whatever it says on your birth certificate.

@cburch: You're right as well, in reality it's impossible. Also, one day I'll die. I can't deal with that. So I go on and do the best I can and try not to think about it too much. I sort of feel the same way about this.

@ndromb: Thanks, that helps alot. The part about what the big deal is, I'm going to try to address off-forum. This whole thing is getting bigger than I'm wanting it to be.

@noah: on the other hand, sometimes it's really hard to keep one's calorie intake up on longer rides. Every little bit helps.

@bikinggirl: I don't commute...

I can understand how the board can be intimidating, but with any social situation, the best thing to do is just jump in. We are all grow-ups here--step out of the corner and participate.

Keep in mind that we were all outsiders at one point. When I started reading this board you were lucky if there was a new post every week. Now it seems there are posts every few minutes all day long.

Even though there are over 200 posts you are forgetting this is the internet. I can assure you there are plenty of people who have read every single one (at work). Plus, there are pictures--pictures always keep attention longer.

Lastly, you are right--you can post false information. You can also give false information in person...

Some times I regret posting in various forums with my real name, especially my business name, mostly because I have to be somewhat less opinionated than I like.

But the free advertising more than makes up for it

Edit:

Ndromb, was that the remnants of the flock I buzzed on the Junction Hollow right before 3am last night? Seemed like it and I should have probably turned around and said hey

Yep, it was the winding down of Midnight Mass. I was wondering who the hell was riding down there at 3am.

Biking Girl,

I dont commute much, almost all of the riding I do is on the rail to trails, if I get to commute to town 10 times on my bike before the snow flies I'll be doing the Dance of Joy on penn ave. Also I will be more than happy to post my information but even as I do so I don't belive that many others will. the idea of posting personal information on a public forum is something that many people wont or shouldnt do. also as @ndrbomb has said, I spend quite a bit of time on the site and have read 90% of the posts in the last few months as well as every post in the intro thread. I have a lot of free time (even at work) and I have found the people here to be both informed, interesting, and for the most part well behaved. Callie's first post here was negative and trollish. Which was why I never responded to it. only once the subject changed to something worth talking about did I respond.

Moderately ambitious trolls (actually, any one of us) can easily make up "personal" information. It doesn't make you any more real.

But posting for a while does. It's really the only way to let people know who you are and how you think (other than meeting face-to-face, several times).

So, relax.

It didn't occur to me at the time I registered to have a more descriptive "handle," and I can't figure out how to do pictures. I don't commute, and I don't get to ride as often as I like. (And although I did the "introductions" thread, I didn't really take it too seriously, and have probably given more direct information here now.)

I really, really like cycling, though. And I like people that like cycling. That's why I came to these boards.

Since February or March I've tried to get in on the conversation with varying degrees of success. It has also been with varying degrees of frustration. It is very intimidating for just the reason that has been mentioned: many of you know each other directly, in person.

I'm just ALMKLM. Not trying to hide, or mess with anybody. Just trying to be involved with a community I m a part of.

I'd like to think this community can tolerate "anonymous" posters. Maybe we could temper our responses a bit (ie.: give the benefit of the doubt, engage in constructive discourse, rather than immediately pounce on someone assuming they are a troll).

That said, I've written some things on other threads here that earned me some heat, and I took it, learned from it, and now just take a little more care with how I craft my position.

Like any message board you don't just show up and start by criticizing the members in your first post. The sad thing is she probably left with a negative opinion of bike pittsburgh and its members even though she was in the wrong.

I've never had a problem on the msg board -- everyone's been very friendly and helpful and I've learned a lot here.

But a few years ago at BikeFest I showed up at a short ride in my bike shorts and jersey since I had built that into a longer day of riding. I was sneered at by hipsters on fixies. I think it's worse to show up for a group ride on a bike w no brakes than it is to show up in a dorky kit, but that's just me.

Whatev. I commute and I am a triathon dork. The two worlds are not mutually exclusive.

Why's everyone been assuming Callie was a she? Could be short for, Calvin, or, Caligula, Caleb, Callan. Ha, ha!

I commute and I am a triathon dork.

+1

It's entirely possible that a good many cyclists (I won't say "all") exhibit some degree of dorkyness. I wear an orange vest and have a laptop bag hanging over my shoulder. That all comes from being somewhat counter-culture. ("Whaddya mean you don't drive a car to work?")

I've made no effort at all to conceal my identity. My "handle" actually predates my use of the Bike-Pgh message board, having come from my calling in to The Saturday Light Brigade radio show. I have nothing to hide, and I don't think I'm doing anything here or anywhere else that would cause anyone to want to do me any harm.

Is callie a he or a she?

As I said in another thread or blog somewhere, it doesn't really matter. Female or male, we're all in this riding experience together. I can think of several regulars on this board who I didn't know (or care) their gender until they'd been here a while.

Why's everyone been assuming Callie was a she? Could be short for, Calvin, or, Caligula, Caleb, Callan. Ha, ha!

oops. I may have started that.

I actually had it in the back of my head that I didn't know Callie's gender (assuming she/he/ze/sie/ou/argh identifies with a gender) when I went with "she". I was kind of picking a pronoun in desperation after spending some time reading progressive-ish blogs that use the gender neutral stuff. I did that for a while, until one day I tried to actually speak that way out loud ("I don't know where sie put hir bike because sie didn't tell me") and was able to rattle it off after practicing for only about 20 minutes. "They" would be a nice alternative, except that my 7th grade English teacher beat agreement in number into me to the point where I sort of involuntarily cower under an unseen ruler when I knowingly violate that particular commandment.

@ahlir: Just like any other form of writing, a name and some information gives your more credibility--whether that information is true or not, we all like to know something about the people we talk to.

@ALMKLM: You are right that a lot of the conversations are dominated by people who know each other (and I can see how that can be intimidating), but a lot of us only know each other from the board.

If you feel like you are excluded, why not meet some of us? A decent chunk of the board can be found at the FOC rides. The BikeFest Party is also going to be a great chance to meet a lot of posters

Just like any other form of writing, a name and some information gives your more credibility--whether that information is true or not

So really, a consistent email handle *is* a name. We use them to address each other and recognize a series of posts from a single individual.

we all like to know something about the people we talk to.

Which you do. In my case, if you read my posts, you could know my gender, the part of town I live in, some of the kinds of biking I like to do, how I sometimes respond to frustrating situations on a bike, and the fact that I was so over-the-top ecstatic to have found a bike stolen from a friend of mine had that I maybe got a little carried away, decided to use that as my handle. And a bunch of other stuff.

That's kind of what you have to do in real life too, at least with me. I generally don't walk up to a person in real life and give them a list of pieces of data about me.* Nor do I respond well in real life to anyone who expresses that they think I should do that. (It's happened.) My feeling has always been that if you want to get to know me, you interact with me, you spend some time in my company, and eventually you'll have a pretty good sense of the stuff that really matters.

The more I think about it, the more I really kind of like the fact that there are things I don't know about some of the people here that would generally be obvious in real life. If that makes some of them feel more free to express thoughts that they might not otherwise, I think (at least some of the time) I like that better. (Aren't some of you dying to hear what spakbros is really thinking?) Or even from my end, as a listener: I think of all the little things that affect the way we receive someone, even when we'd like to be more enlightened. Someone's gender, their age, how their appearance strikes us (especially aspects of it that have nothing to do with who they are, so I'm not talking about being neat vs sloppy or that sort of thing), all kinds of things I like to think I look past, but I'm sure I never succeed 100%.

In this kind of context, a person really has a chance to be known and related to solely based on the contents of their** mind and their ability to express those things. That's actually alot closer to the world I want to live in than the one I find when I head out the door.

And I know, there are downsides. Not using your real name gives you a little more leeway to do things that you don't want to own. There are trade-offs in each direction as far as how the community benefits or is left at greater risk. But even with this concern in mind, using a consistent handle still represents an investment in one's identity. If I chose to spout off awfully at some forum member, I'd ruin something I've put some time into and place value on (my relationships and interactions with other posters on the board) so there's still some commitment there, to try to be a positive presence.

*Except Nick.

**take that, 7th grade English warden.

"Anonymity on the Internet", Larry Detweiler. Also, "Snakes of Medusa."

@ndromb: almost had a hall pass for FOC last time around, but was foiled by my daughter's gymnastics picnic. Bummed I missed it, but hoping to make next one. Looks like a lot of fun, and an opportunity to put faces to the names. Does anyone here do the team decaf rides? I've heard they are fun.

Even if it was only one cyclist on the Hot Metal Bridge you wouldn't have been able to pass her because the lanes are so narrow.

I can see a few reasons you might want to ride there instead of the bike bridge (lighting, where you need to turn at the end) but it's not a great route.