BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I'm sure this is more or less how car drivers view us.

I know this could be perceived as hypocritical, but I totally agree with you, pghbikeguy (and have posted something similar on the boards before). I've had a similar experience (ninja runner at night, near the bottom of the hill, around where the lane starts to narrow and the curve affects visibility). Guy was running straight down the middle of the lane towards me and my very bright light and didn't move an inch (and I guess just assumed I could see him because his jacket had some reflective bits). Unfortunately, I'm currently unable to articulate exactly why this is fundamentally different from bikes in car lanes (besides that bikes in car lanes are legal and runners in bike lanes are not), so Chris may be right in implying that this is sort of hypocritical, but I feel like there's a fundamental difference that I'm still trying to figure out how to explain concretely. Part of that is that that lane is not designed to handle multidirectional traffic. The runners are running against traffic so they can see it... except the last one I encountered didn't react at all when traffic (me) was coming straight towards him. Didn't even flinch or move over a little, very clear indication of "I expect you to move into the right (car) lane so I can keep running straight here, thanks." The other factor is that there's already a "pedestrian lane" on that road, so it's not like they don't have somewhere else to go.

I say this all as someone who runs on that sidewalk on the other side of the road all the time, too. It's admittedly not in amazing shape, but neither is the road itself. I can't figure out why it would be preferable to run against traffic in the bike lane instead of running on the sidewalk and just being slightly careful about not tripping over a crack in the concrete.

Maybe this does make me the same as the ranting drivers who say "I ride a bike sometimes too, but I think all cyclists who ride on the road should die." IDK.

I am by no means implying anyone is a hypocrite. I suppose I don't even care if people are hypocrites. My point is the minute you say "this lane is for cyclists only" expect to be asked to stay there. Let roads be a means for getting from place to place, use some common sense and expect knuckleheads.

I imagine other runners are going to jump into this...

Sidewalks aren't perfectly good for anything. Pavement has far more give and thus is better on joints and muscles. This is why runners run in the road. When using the road, pedestrians are supposed to be going the opposite direction of traffic.

It's only a catastrophe if neither party reacts to the impending collision.

What you describe is a runner inconveniencing you, failing to yield, and wondering why they're not doing it somewhere else. That sounds like pretty much every disgruntled motorist

Yeah, I see what you mean. (Even if you had been implying it was a hypocritical standpoint, I wasn't taking offense at it—I legitimately can't decide how I should feel about this.) I do appreciate that we aren't yet forced by law to stay in bike lanes where they exist, unlike cyclists in places like New York, so I should probably count my blessings and just try not to hit any of these guys. It irritates me, but I'm not sure what could be done about it without asking for other problems.

Chill out, Pierce, I was hardly "disgruntled." I was asking for opinions.

Besides, I thought the purpose of running counter-flow was to be able to move if an oncoming vehicle (regardless of number of wheels) was approaching.

When using the road, pedestrians are supposed to be going the opposite direction of traffic.

that's only if there is no sidewalk available.

here's what the law says:

§ 3544. Pedestrians walking along or on highway.

(a) Mandatory use of available sidewalk.--Where a sidewalk is provided and

its use is practicable, it is unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and

upon an adjacent roadway.

(b) Absence of sidewalk.--Where a sidewalk is not available, any

pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk only on a shoulder as

far as practicable from the edge of the roadway.

(c) Absence of sidewalk and shoulder.--Where neither a sidewalk nor a

shoulder is available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall

walk as near as practicable to an outside edge of the roadway and, if on a

two-way roadway, shall walk only on the left side of the roadway.

(d) Right-of-way to vehicles.--Except as otherwise provided in this

subchapter, any pedestrian upon a roadway shall yield the right-of-way to all

vehicles upon the roadway.

Yeah, I forgot about the pavement vs. concrete hardness issue since I haven't had a stress injury in a while. I get that. IDK. Like I said, I know this may be hypocritical, which is why I haven't yelled at anyone or tried to hit them or had signs put up to tell them not to. I'm not sure that it's a good idea to run in the bike lane, on that particular road, at night, near that curve, without reacting to traffic conditions in any way, without at least making sure someone going well under the speed limit can see you in time to slow/stop/change lanes/not hit you... but if people want to do it, that's their deal and I certainly won't hit them if I can possibly help it.

ETA: And, like Erok said, part of the difference is the illegality thing, which makes sense in a place like that where there is absolutely no extra space for pedestrians on the side.

I run on the road in residential areas without sidewalks where there's space for cars and bikes to get by me, I run on the shoulder of roads sometimes, etc., but I don't run straight down any road or bike lane where there's nowhere for me or the vehicle to go if we end up trying to pass through the same area at the same time. That's the problem. No matter how careful I am, if there's a car close on my left and a runner is coming up that bike lane, some parts of it are too narrow for both of us to get by. Of course I'd just stop if I had to in that situation, assuming that was an option by the time I was able to see the runner, but that's why it makes sense for it to be illegal for runners to be in that bike lane.

There are a lot of jerks out there – some of them drive cars, some bicycle & some run or walk.

I’ve had issues with moms pushing strollers two abreast on the trails lately. I encountered two on the hot metal bridge, two on the jail trail, and a solo mom in Panther hollow with ear buds; none of them moved an inch to repeated dings of the bell.

True, Marko. I really don't care when it's a multi-use path area, though, since pedestrians are expected and allowed there. I don't always yield to cars that honk at me wanting to pass, and I don't really care if pedestrians always yield to me in places where they are allowed to be. The real problem on Forbes is that pedestrians are unexpected in that bike lane, visibility is already bad, space is already tight, and speeds are relatively high and stopping distances relatively long because it's a big downhill.

@pghbikeguy This forced me to move into the traffic lane

It's your responsibility to make sure they see you approaching at 25 mph. Trust me, they will move.

@Mick: ...You'd be surprised. The last guy I encountered there could not have possibly missed my lights, but he REALLY wasn't moving. I wasn't going to wait until I was three inches away to see if he would dive into the woods on his left, so I eventually moved, but he was seriously not showing any signs of getting out of the way, and I was pretty close by the time I could see his little reflective stripes.

That's a dangerous bike lane with the fast traffic, potholes, animals, etc. Add salmoning runners to the mix and it's even worse. I avoid it now and spend a few minutes going through the cemetery or take Dallas to Reynolds.

As Erok pointed out it is the runner's duty to yield to you in that situation. Doesn't mean they will.

(d) Right-of-way to vehicles.--Except as otherwise provided in this

subchapter, any pedestrian upon a roadway shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

@rsprake: re: animals: We might be better served by putting up signs to tell deer and raccoons to stay out of that bike lane.

I keep meaning to settle on a new route home that avoids that bike lane and the stupid #@@#@$#@ Beechwood connector. Maybe I'll try Dallas to Reynolds today.

As far as I'm concerned, the comfort level of the surface should have nothing to do with who uses which lane/sidewalk. The reason bikes are allowed in the street is because it's not very safe for them to use sidewalks. It is safe for runners/pedestrians to use sidewalks, hence the restriction on them using the roads.

Anybody know why they make sidewalks out of concrete instead of making them out of softer stuff that runners would like better?

As a former runner with a lot of years and miles on roads, I rarely ran on Pittsburgh sidewalks as they were so uneven in the dark and icy in the winter the streets were safer.

I can't say why those runners were on that side of the street - maybe they felt they had to run against traffic? Not the best choice on their part in my opinion.

I also thought Pierce (who seems pretty chill to me) was referring only to disgrutled motorists, which we read about in the comments every time there is a newspaper article about cyclists.

I sometimes wonder if engaging people in rational discussion rather than ranting (or just posting) on a forum might make better sense. The times I have been able to do so with drivers, it always turned out well, but it does not happen enough. Should be easier with runners as they can't just speed away at 45mph.

@pearmask: Probably a number of factors go into what material a sidewalk is made of. Cost is probably the most important. Environmental friendliness, and comfort probably are less important. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sidewalk#Construction

@chemicaldave: That makes sense. I figured it was probably about cost more than anything. I probably should have just Googled that myself, haha.

And @helen s: In terms of what side of the road they were on, I guess I'd rather have them facing traffic than facing the other way in the bike lane so that they were even more oblivious to oncoming bikes, although I guess in this case being on the other side of the road would at least mean the oncoming bikes would be going a lot slower going up the hill. I think I've seen people on the uphill side too but it's not so terrifying and thus less memorable. Still, I don't know what the best option is here if the sidewalk is totally out of the question.

And I guess in this particular case it might just be awkward/challenging to get both people stopped and turned around to discuss the issue, but that's a good point.

The only 2 cents I can add is that, as a pedestrian (I don't run), the quantity of downed branches, beer cans, broken bottles, dead animals, etc., on the side of the road where I might be expected to jog makes it difficult or dangerous to do so, so in those cases, I will walk in the street. OTOH, if I see something coming, I will jump sideways to get out of the way.

@ helen S I sometimes wonder if engaging people in rational discussion rather than ranting (or just posting) on a forum might make better sense.

This morning a car waited for me to pass for it to make a left. As I passed the open driver's window, I said "Thanks" in a normal speaking tone. The driver looked surprised.

I think any time you speak to a driver and NOT shout, it helps bicycles.

There is a closeness that doesn't happen between cars. it personifies the bike rider. Like "guy on a bike was there" instead of "there was bike in the way."

Having a soft calm voice saying, "y'now, I didn't feel safe with what you were doing" is more likly to change behavior than a "YO! DRUNKARD! WATCH IT, A&&HAT!"

Forget runners, I actually saw a jerk on a MOTORCYCLE using the bike lane on Liberty avenue up in bloomfield. There was traffic on the road that he was trying to avoid.

When I caugh-up with him at a red light (with me on my bike), I told him -hey, this lane is only for bycicles, not motorcycles. He didn't flinch (prollly didn't hear me under the helmet), and took-off when the green light came on, STILL riding the bike lane.

At that point I was gonna make a turn, so didn't follow, but still, IT pissed me off. The kid did-look young ((Univ of PITT shirt, shorts, helmet with WV university stickers, SANDALS)) -- still. WATCH OUT!!!!

As for runners, well, with the marathon this weekend, there's definitely an increase in runners out there trying to get fit for sunday (me included).

Lucia, don't worry. Soon he won't be menacing anyone from a powered wheelchair. unless he gets really good with the superman straw.

I have been doing a lot of running lately and I also find running in the street more comfortable than the sidewalk, it's much easier on my knees and joints. I have been told to run against traffic when in the street but I don't feel like the bike lane is a place I want to run, one reason is I'm not sure if it's right or safe.

I strongly agree with helen S and Mick's way of 'talking" to drivers and not screaming, or cursing at them. I don't believe it helps us bicyclist or make the roads safe to share. I have also "talked" to pedestrians about dangerous walking, crossing and drifting habits and have gotten mostly positive results. (from drivers and peds)

If the Netherlands is the ideal then we should be encouraging more mixing not less. 50cc bikes are allowed in most or all bike lanes. There are a lot of streets with no well-defined separation between pedestrians, bicycles, motorcycles, and cars.

I don't think there's much to gain from cyclists complaining about people walking/running in the road. The real problem in the OP (and probably the biggest problem in general) is the assumption that cars have the absolute right-of-way. It doesn't have to be that way.

I generally pedestrians carte blanche.

I think any time you speak to a driver and NOT shout, it helps bicycles.

i agree. i've been commuting through lawrenceville lately, and it really helps even just to look at someone out with their kids and smile. and the one night in shadyside, i was stopped at a red light with no cars coming in any direction for as far as anyone could see, but i still waited, and a pedestrian was crossing the street i was waiting at. i realized i was blocking his way, so i backed up a little bit, and he said "you're a really good person." caught me off guard a bit, and while i might not agree 100%, it was nice to hear.

on the other hand! there was a person turning around on liberty yesterday, from across the street where i was in the bike lane, waiting at a light. i moved up and over so he had room to turn around completely without me in the way. which he did. and then he blew right through the light. which had been red long enough that it was likely to change any moment. i laughed out loud, and may have said "it takes all kinds." some people, you just can't "reach".

Lucia, don't worry. Soon he won't be menacing anyone from a powered wheelchair.

I've actually seen powered wheelchairs in the liberty bike lanes!

going with the flow of traffic, i might add, so i was like, whatevs

i mean, they have two wheels. you can even get schwalbe marathons for a wheelchair. seems close enough to a bike.

I'm not sure why, but somehow I'm comfortable riding my bike in the road, where there's easily 20-30 mph difference in speed between me and the next biggest vehicle, even on a busy street, but I think running in the road, on that particular road or a comparably busy road, is just lunacy no matter what direction you're going.

I can of course think of a few reasons one would HAVE to run there (if he were using running as transportation and alternate routes weren't feasible), much the same way biking on any given road would be the only reasonable thing no matter the bike-friendliness of the road. I'm even a fan of running on the road instead of the sidewalk to save the joints.

But with the plethora of side streets and trails at either end of the road, and the sidewalk right there to hop onto for a handful of steps, what's the point of playing chicken?

I think Marko is right: Some people are jerks, and some of those jerks are runners. I think the chutzpah it takes to run in the road on that particular road is very similar to the chutzpah it takes to play chicken with an oncoming vehicle.

If anyone sees people running up hill on Forbes in the bike lane there between Frick and the cemetary, please stop and ask them why. I do not understand either- I suspect lack of thought process.