BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Get a bike fitting, mentioned in numerous other threads. Usual cause is too low a seat, standing wouldn't do it. Also you might be trying to push too high gears. Don't hesitate to use those low, low gears. In the meantime just try raising the seat. Your leg should be just shy of fully straight when the pedal is at the lowest point.

I usually always use hard gears because it's more of a workout.

Nope. Go low. Spin.

Hmm, I'd say that's a misconception. Granted, your legs are getting a heckuva workout, but gearing down a bit transfers the limitation from your legs to your cardiopulmonary system. If your goal is muscular development, then fine, mash away.

FWIW, I make the best time from McCandless to Downtown when I spend the most time in my lower gears, rather than upshift and just cruise.

My one bike always has the seat too low, to suit my wife (officially hers, though I ride it >95% of the time), and my knees hurt after a few miles, no matter what gear I'm in.

Somehow, those thoughts are related, relevant, and I hope make sense.

If you're looking for a clinical solution and better performance, you should talk to Matt Tinkey at the UPMC cycling performance center on water street. (http://www.upmc.com/Services/sports-medicine/services/performance/Pages/cycling.aspx) He will spend hours with you to learn about your bodies needs on a bike and how your bike should be properly adjusted to those needs. The fit you get at a bike shop is nowhere near what he can offer. Was $75 last time I went. He's been a savior for my knee and IT band troubles.

If you just want general advice, if you can tell us more about how you ride (are you clipped in?) and where specifically in your knee (side, bottom, top) you feel the pain, and when you feel it, I can give you a few suggestions.

As far as spinning vs mashing, don't spin to the point you aren't pushing your muscles at all, and don't mash all the time. Both of these will mess you up in one way or another.

2nd @rrobjdlc's advice. "don't spin to the point you aren't pushing your muscles at all, and don't mash all the time. Both of these will mess you up in one way or another."

After knee surgery for a torn meniscus last year, I've been hyper-aware and trying to spin a low enough gear to stay around 70 - 80 rpm on most hills. It may not "feel" right instinctually if you're used to mashing, but it does help alleviate stress on the joints.

On saddle height: I used the LeMond method to roughly determine where mine should be about a year before I had a proper fit, which ended up being 3-5mm off (too low) after fine-tuning with Matt at UPMC. I highly recommend his services. A few tweaks really helped me out with neck strain and hand/arm numbness on long rides.

I get knee pain when I ride my old lager, which has a saddle height that isn't properly adjusted. Go to Matt. Worth the money.

My seat adjuster is quick release and I notice that it slips down gradually during a ride. This might be the problem.

Does anyone know if they accept insurance since its a upmc service?

I don't think so. 10% off for bike pgh members.

Italianblend, my seat on my pink bike is the same way. Only it slips down every couple of weeks. Usually a mild tweaking feeling in my left knee is what makes me notice.

Ooh, slipping down seat isn't good. Unless you really use the QR, can it and replace it with a bolt. Also helps prevent miscreants from jacking your seat.

Italianblend - Sounds liek your seat is to low. I had teh same issues a few months ago. Moved my seat up maybe an inch and it made a world of difference. Is your pain on the top of your knee? That is where mine was, went away with higher seat position.

Offering another observation to the good ones already here....

Have you changed your footwear? Are you restraining your foot in clips/cages that you didn't used to?

There can be an almost impercetible change in the angle between the knee and the ankle/foot when changing pedals or footwear. It doesn't take much to create knee pain.

Just one more thing to consider, but I think the seat adjustment is probably the answer.

And, as for mashing or spinning, I've destroyed my knees already. Mashing brings the pain front and center almost immediately. I'll be moving very slowly, and spinning, thank you.

Most people put tape on the seatpost to mark it and to make you aware of when it slips. Electrical tape works best, extra points if you coordinate it with your bike.

You can replace a QR seatpost clamp with a bolt. Easy change out.

I don't have clips, and have been wearing the same running shoes for a year now.

I really can't believe that I shouldn't be using the hard gears. Not that I don't trust you all, it's just that I've done nothing but pretty much my highest gear unless I'm on a hill for a year now. When I bike in anything lower, it just seems like I'm pedaling for no reason.

Ugh, I don't really want to give that up...but I will if it means destroying my knees...

It's why Tullio Campagnolo invented gears man. You wouldn't go against Tullio would you?

Pick your favorite pro cyclist. Watch a video of him (or her!) riding. Watch how fast they spin.

Spinning is good.

^ Whatever she says!

Even tejay?? Don't tell me it's so.... Tejayyyyyy nooooooo

All Phil Ligget says is "look at so and so turning over that massive gear," in his lovely British accent. To which Paul replies, "yes Phil, he is absolutely pushing his pain to the limit today," in his lovely British accent.

How long has the pain been present? I certainly agree with the earlier posts, especially about fit (some of the best money I've spent). But you could have developed some tightness and inflammation in the muscles surrounding your hips and/or knees. Adequate strength and flexibility in the right places is important even with a proper fit. If the pain doesn't go away with a short break and you have already tried the good advice above, I would recommend physical therapy. Many PT's have a direct access license, which means you don't need a prescription.

I just noticed it on Saturday for the first time - which is also why I'm puzzled - if I've been riding this hard of gears all this time then why wouldn't it have shown up sooner?

I didn't bike on Sunday and today I'm biking into work for a bit so I'll see how it goes. I'll try to shift down gear and have a good seat height. But I think I might change the quick release for something better if I can't stabilize it.

if I've been riding this hard of gears all this time then why wouldn't it have shown up sooner?

If you think of your body as something that wears this makes sense. You could be over doing it and you're just starting to notice the effects or it could be a one time thing. My knees hurt walking up stairs some days from playing basketball on concrete for years. I didn't feel it when I was a kid, but I sure do now (I need to see a doctor.)

Change out the quick release. If the seat post is slipping it means your legs aren't in the comfortable position for your entire ride. That's your first step.

@ItalianBlend

I'm curious - typically what is your cadence? This is how many revolutions per minute do you make travelling?

I know this can vary with the terrain, but on a flat stretch?

Aside from the bike issues, you say you've had the same running shoes for a year. My PT always points out to me that the soles of shoes "wear out" and become useless as a protection against shock a long time before the tops become unsightly.

Stretch. Slowly and gently stretching your hamstrings will most likely help - 30 seconds a stretch, at least two stretches per side.

Some bad stretches, like jerking the muscle and such, can wreck your back. You can likely find good stretches somewhere on the net.

Bicycle magazine claims that setting a water bottle on the ground and jumping over it sideways, feet together, helps bicyclist's knees. Make sure it's soft ground or padding. I do it on a schenley ovoal composite track.

A prompt visit to a physical therapist and/or the UPMC fitting guys could help avoid a world of pain.

@Italianblend if I've been riding this hard of gears all this time then why wouldn't it have shown up sooner?

"All this time..." ???

My impression is that you've only been biking a few months or a year or so. Am I wrong?

It often takes dacades of the wrong stuff to trash knees. See rsprake's post.

Haha yeah it's been about 15 months since I started...

I've never tried to figure out a cadence nor would I know how, but I will do an internet search.

Thanks for the advice everyone.

Cadence- time how many time your pedals go around for a minute- or if that's too long, do a shorter amount and then mutliply to get revolutions per minute. In running, ideally it should approach 90- but that will feel really fast for most people.

About knees- I can thank my dad for the genes that contributed to my loss of cartilage, and not the 45 years of running.

I recommend raising your seat to the point where you can just barely reach the ground. I have really messed up knees (had two surgeries in January), and keeping my seat high keeps them happy. Also I agree with what everyone said about switching to a bolt-on instead of QR.

I would love to raise my seat but I thought that too high a seat is damaging as well. Trying for the slight bend as I pedal.

Italianblend - believe them. See Matt for a good fit. No, they don't take insurance and it doesn't matter if you're insurance is with UPMC. The seat height (and yes, the "proper" height seemed pretty high to me)and slower cadence made all the difference to me. Embrace the granny gear! Seriously - lower the gear and take the pressure off your knees. Last year when I started riding I couldn't get more than a couple of miles without my knees screaming at me. I listened to Vannevar and eventually had the bike fit with Matt. I rode to DC in June this year and my knees barely whimpered during the whole ride.

@Italianblend, first I'm sorry you're having trouble.

I believe in the bike fit. It's a specialized technical task, and it takes a proficient specialist to do it, imho.

The cadence thing is huge. I'm a cadence bicyclist and it's essential to me. On my trail bike I ride 85 rpm (revs per minute on the pedals) plus/minus 5.

Let me bother you with the details of the cadence thing if I may. I ride 85 rpm all the time - uphill, downhill, level - I never really focus on my speed, it's all about cadence.

So I'm riding my bike on level ground, I move to whatever gear has me riding comfortably at 85 RPM.

I come to a hill which is more work, my RPM tends to drop and it gets harder. I shift into easier/lower gears until my RPM gets back to 85 and when I do, the effort is moderate again and I can go up hills that used to require stopping. The speed goes way down, the cadence stays at 85.

Top of the hill, now it's downhill, I change to lower/harder gears until once again I'm at 85 rpm. Speed goes way up, cadence stays at 85.

This is what my bike computer looks like: cadence numbers are big because that's what matters, the speed numbers are small and I really don't look at them.

The Cateye Astrale computers do a good job of cadence, they cost around $30. There are GPS units that deliver a "virtual cadence", it's a derived, indirect number and I don't recommend them.

Generally, knees are a primary beneficiary from cadence riding, followed by fun and accomplishment. No more stopping on mondo hills because I've tired out either my legs or my lungs.

Sorry to go on, it's a fave topic of mine, it's been very helpful to me. There's even a Wikipedia article so it must be true lol.

I second what Vannevar said- cadence is prime if you love your knees. As with your car, you want your engine to work at it's optimum, and an automatic transmission keeps if there to a point. You have the ability to be an automatic transmission as well as the engine. Mashing hard and slowly would be like driving up steep hills in 5th gear- your engine would not like it.

Also Italianblend, to be clear, your cadence is the number of times ONE pedal goes around in a minute. Pick one foot or the other and count that foot.

I was riding home yesterday thinking about this. If you don't want to get wrapped up in all kinds of fancy new 20th century technology you could just hum a nice march, I was humming and pedaling to the Washington Post march and that seemed about right (supposedly it's 120 bpm which would be a cadence of 60) although I've read on other boards that the Bee Gees "Staying Alive" will result in a proper cadence.

I've been a fan of 78 rpm records for decades, and have that image of a 78 rotating thoroughly burned into my brain. Whether or not it's an ideal cadence for my body, I have no problem replicating it in my head, and thus can carry it into my legs.

I suppose if you have a metronome, you can set it to tick at any speed you want. Memorize that, and you're on your way.

You need for a month. May be two and then you would be able to tell approximately based on your feeling.

I just put a metronome app on my phone to check this out based on this discussion. Yay tchnologee!

I've also noticed my knee cracks when I flex it. My other knee doesn't do that. Any ideas as to what that means besides I'm getting old?

Yes i know exactly what that means.

It means you should not get medical advice on web forums.

Ha-ha, but whatever Vannevar said.

+1 Vannevar

So practical guys!