BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Next week is finals and I have a project to finish.

I went by dippy around 9:30 and was wishing I could flock. I have family in town though

I was in town earlier by bike & would've stayed for a 6pm party ride, but then remembered this was the later one. Next week.

We ended up with eight. Only thing cold was my feet.

I could make it to more rides if they weren't on Fridays. I work at 4:30a Saturdays

I turn into a pumpkin at 10PM. And I'm finally ready to admit that I'm absolutely petrified of biking in the cold. If my fingers went numb at 40F then at 20F....

I have a test run this morning, using RF's layer-layer-layer-layer till there's no more clothes method. If I can last just two miles (to the bike shop), I get new pedals that have dynamo lights in them and potentially a balaclava. If I don't go, I have to stay home all day and clean.

I think I can, I think I can, I think I can...

RubberFactory, when would you like to ride?

Next week we have a 6pm ride with ice skating at 7pm. You should be able to come for a short ride, skate with all of us, and still get some sleep before work.

I now know how long i can make it in cold weather like that. I am glad it ended when it did. My feet hurt so badly i nearly started to cry when i got home. That happens to me usually when i try to go sledding. I have something called raynaud's and it's usually my fingers that are involved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raynaud's_phenomenon

If i can ride in the cold with this, you guys can also as long as you find what works for you.

OK, sorry I missed it. But I had some great bike experiences lately. Like these:

- Late late Thursday night, streets were deserted and I rolled down Wilkins Avenue to Fifth Avenue, where there was another cyclist going at a pretty good speed. I couldn't quite see who it was, so I asked if it was Joe F., but it wasn't (Dan? David?). For his part, he thought I might be Billy, but obviously I wasn't. So, way to go, late-night winter cyclists!

- Last night, I was coming over the Millvale Street bridge from Bloomfield to Oakland, and another rider was crossing the other direction, and we rang our bells at each other AT THE EXACT SAME TIME. It was great.

RubberFactory, when would you like to ride?

Next week we have a 6pm ride with ice skating at 7pm. You should be able to come for a short ride, skate with all of us, and still get some sleep before work.

well, pretty much any day but friday

But Saturday evenings are also good.

I've never been ice skating before, it'd definitely be pretty awkward for me, haha.

I need to obtain some winter gear to complete my transition from a fair weather cyclist. Hopefully I'll be back in the saddle for the new year.

/makingexcuses

/totalcoldweatherpanzy

/unlessimcampingorhiking

/ihatethewind

I would like to attend more Flocks, but usually have Friday night obligations.

rob - i wore a long sleeved shirt under a tshirt and this jacket: http://www.performancebike.com/bikes/Product_10052_10551_1090063_-1_1556503_20000_400040

shoe covers with wool socks, snowboarding gloves, a cap, and tights under jeans worked pretty well for me so far. this is my first year riding in the cold weather. i do have to say that it takes me forever to get ready to go out and ride though.

oh no. not ice skating. i HATE ice skating. ask stef how bad i am. i cling to the wall for dear life. can we have a continue to ride option for those of us who hate skating?

or, those of us too uncoordinated to skate properly can cling to the wall in a group.

ooor maybe can we do more than a 2 mile ride around before stopping at the rink? i liked the flock to light up night but i kinda wish we did a little more riding instead of going straight there?

I was at a work party making smiley face. There was wine though.

Wow, you don't want to let that Reynauds thing get too far do you? It's surprising that increased blood flow while exercising doesn't overcome that condition. I say some goofy sht but I am completely serious - I wonder if anyone has investigated if Viagra affects that condition. I have read about climbers using viagra at high altitude to reduce vasoconstriction and maintain their oxygen levels. Way OT, but hey.

Oh, wait, I just went back to Nicks post, is the next regular Flock be on the 17th at 6, the ice skating thing? The 2nd to last Friday is Christmas eve and would impact most Xtians.

I think edmonds' comment about viagra is not off base. A mom I know from another country said it was used as part of treatment for her very premature infant.

Yup. I have been finding women with Reynaud's syndrome popping up regularly on my xc ski trips, so I did a little research. There have been a few studies of Viagra in Reynaud's syndrome and the results are promising. It would be a decidedly off-label use, and some of the side-effects might be a problem for biking, but it wouldn't be difficult to give it a try.

viagra was first used in trials to treat hypertension, but then researchers found that men didn't want to stop it and/or reported its use as it is now (or something like that). you would think that it could be used for raynaud's also. there are years of clinical trials and medications are prescribed by docs for off-label use often, so there may be some using this medication.

my fingers and toes don't get regions of color demarcation quite like that. they definitely turn all pale/white. it is the most pain i have ever felt in my life. when blood returns they get really red, and that hurts really badly, too, to have that rush of blood. so i have had to go to my car/someone else's car or inside where it is warm while snow tubing, sledding, etc., to get warm for a half hour or so before i could go back into the cold for a bit. it is a pain in the ass, but that is how it is. i think i will be ok this winter for commuting to work. it's only 6.5 miles each way.

How about electric clothing. Most of it is designed for motocycle/snowmobile use i.e. 12 volt, but there are some brands that use rechargable litium cells you clip to your belt(of course these are the most expensive). Putting drugs into my system -especially off label- is something I would try to avoid if there was another solution.

expensive http://cozywinters.com/hotronic/

cheaper http://blazewearusa.com/index.php?cPath=26

All this talk of freezing digits is interesting. In single digit temperatures, I regularly get to work with numb fingers and toes which hurt for a bit as they warm up. I always thought it just went with the territory of riding in cold weather. No reason to stop though.

There's cold fingers from biking around in the cold, and there's Raynaud's. My wife's fingers can go stone cold in a 55-degree room, as if she'd just had a snowball fight without gloves. Just getting a bag of broccoli from the freezer can cause her to have to sit down.

I bet she hates putting frozen groceries away, too

Stef - I need to get a jacket, and toe covers, and socks. Moved here a couple years ago from a place that isn't exactly this frigid, I guess its about time I started dressing for the occasion.

I have discovered that my footsies are woefully under or over prepared for the cold. Tenny's that I use in the spring/fall and LOOK (and feel and are labeled) like they are made of leather, below certain temperatures and in the wind are actually thin mesh. So I skip the uggs with the soles that are falling apart and go straight to the steel toed work boot. NO wind or cold gets through those mothers. And they weigh something like 7 pounds each, making pedaling rather like running in dry sand. But man my toes are cozy the whole ride through.

Reynaud's looks absolutely brutal, like enough to try and live in the tropics.

This weekend's rides have totally eliminated my fear of biking in the cold. It's on. (again).

Raynaud's isn't necessarily triggered by cold fingers. It can be triggered by cold in general (or by stress, or vibration, or other things). So you can get it with great gloves but a too-thin coat. It's as if the body incorrectly thinks there's some kind of thermal emergency, and cuts off blood to the extremities to protect the core. Lots of things can cause it to react incorrectly like that, not just cold hands.

Also, Viagra is just one of many medicines used for Raynaud's. Some of them seem pretty promising, and might be worth specifically asking your doctor about if you suffer from Raynaud's.

I'm a PA and i have thought about calcium channel blockers but i will just deal with it. I pay attention to my cold exposure. That is what my main problem is.

People tell me that I adapt to the cold better than most, and I should because I used to live near Lake Superior and my first job was on a lakes freighter. On the other hand, I dont' see any of these folks (that aren't adapting) dressing well enough to have a chance.

If you don't feel a strong urge to unzip something while going up a moderate hill? You are underdressed. No reason not to wear another layer.

This is separate from Raynaud's symptoms. I don't know enough about that to address it. But when I saw Stef clothes list, I thought "she needs a warm coat over that warm jacket when it gets below 20 or so. Then she might be OK. And maybe a hood over her hat."

When it gets down around 10 or 15 degrees, I'll use this outer jacket

At the same time, I'll have enough "Turducken" layers that I'll shove that jacket in my pannier when I go up Forbes from Braddock. And I will like - really really like- that jacket when I go down the other side of Squirrel Hill.

Shirt, wool sweater, hoody, hats (plural), gloves AND mittens, neoprene mask, long johns, pants, XXXL scrubs over the pants, two pairs of socks (and room to wiggle the toes.) For me that's standard at 10 degrees.

When it gets colder than that, I get extreme.

You dress differently at 35 degrees than you do when it's 50. The 15 degrees from 25 down to 10 aren't one bit easier.

If you don't feel a strong urge to unzip something while going up a moderate hill?

WARNING: Be careful exactly what you unzip!

On a more serious note, has it already been colder this year than all of last year, or is it just me? Mostly, my fingertips were getting cold, but I bought a pair of glove liners this weekend and all is well again.

I discovered further evidence today, upon not being able to find my winter coat and wearing a basic windbreaker instead (NO I did not bike), that my perception of what I need for any given task outside in winter and what is actually necessary are two seemingly unrelated things. And my coat-eschewing husband is not as psychotic as I thought he was.

More and more I'm coming to believe that, Reynaud's aside, the only thing that sucks about winter is standing around outside in the cold complaining about it. Everything else just take a little trial & error & planning.

I'm not biking the idetarod in a swimsuit, for chrissake. My visions of getting stranded and using a cow as a substitute Tauntaun to protect me from the bitter arctic winds of Monroeville are probably a little over the top.

Mick, thanks for listing your layers: that is helpful info.

Today I wore

-Windblocking fleece balaclava + helmet

-Medium-weight wool base + cheapo polar fleece jacket + lightweight wind/rain resistant shell.

-Medium-weight wicking synthetic long johns + novarra stratos wind/rain pants

-merino sock liners + thick wool socks + wind/waterproof keen boots + shoe covers.

-novarra stratos lobster gloves.

Everything felt pretty good except the fingers (trying liners tomorrow). My thighs were cool but tolerable.

It was the first time my feet felt fine in the cold.

I don't have reynaud's but my toes and fingers tend to get cold easily.

All the money I've been saving this season on parking has been blown on clothing. But, I feel pretty great.

I'm probably insane and/or hot-blooded, but I wear:

- normal clothes (jeans, long sleeve heavyish shirt, socks + shoes or boots)

- showers pass windbreaker

- gloves (now with liners)

- headband/ear covers + helmet + beard

granted, my commute is pretty short (10-15 min). i do occasionally go for some longer rides in the winter but probably not more than an hour at a time.

although, i do wonder how warm i would be if i had to change a flat or something involving not riding...

I wear normal clothing too. Today I had jeans, t-shirt, thermal, 2x socks (one polypro, one wool). Same thing I wear indoors in the winter. On my bike I add a skull cap, an old fleece, a showers pass shell, and some really, really old ski gloves. It is probably one too many layers on my torso, but my hands still got cold. Not sure anything short of chemical heat packs would keep them warm at these temps. I wore the same thing for flock on Friday (it was a tad warmer out then), with the addition of some shoe covers. My feet got hot and started to sweat with those though. They are kind of a pain, and I don't think I'd ever bother with them for < 40 minute rides. My hands get way colder than my feet.

Today, normal pants + T-shirt + long-sleeve shirt. Old hoodie, windbreaker, reflective vest. Welding gloves for the hands, and plastic bags over the socks for the feet. I actually got too warm skidding around CMU and unzipped the windbreaker, pulled up the sleeves, and took off the hood.

@ salty- some people don't need huge amounts of warm clothing. Actually if we have a 20 degree day in early march, I'm usually one of those people - not now, though.

Thing is, there are a lot of people who say "My body just can't adjust to the cold" when they mean "I don't have the sense to put on another layer."

With light clothes, I worry about an accident. Bleeding, dazed, AND freezing? No thanks!

Dan - the glove liners definitely helped me - I got them for $15 at pro bikes. Still thinking about a pair of those "lobster claw" gloves though.

For people with real cold hand problems, these might help, google "pogies"

@dwillen. my hands still got cold

Mittens. Over the ski gloves.

Still thinking about a pair of those "lobster claw" gloves though.

I like 'em for keeping my hands warm (lobsters, plus wool liners, and I'm good for a long time in the mid-teens F); make sure that you can comfortably work your controls, though.

I've used mine with twist, trigger, and bar-end shifters...bar ends are the only ones with which I felt really comfortable with the lobsters.

so is this friday a flock ride to ice skating? (or as i plan it hot chocolating)

here's a question for youse, and it's something i've been questioning for a while. I have a road bike with caliper brakes and thin road slicks - if you've been on the flock, you've likely seen her. lime green accents, hipstery wheels, homemade appeal. ahh, she's a beaut.

anyway. i have a hybrid bike that helps me get through some of the thicker snow, but i hate riding it too much. is there a product out there that will allow me to use a road bike on light snow? i've seen a brand called 'Thickslick', but i'm not sure if there's something for this or not.

or, potentially, anyone want to set up a bike trade? i'll trade my KHS hybrid for a mountain bike that i can fix up into a snow commuter!

@Mick - where on Lake Superior did you work? I spent some time in Duluth.

What exactly is it about the hybrid that you dislike so much? Riding position, etc?

You could probably inexpensively morph it into something that you like better that would be great in snow.

the riding position is goofy - i'm completely upright, and it feels like pedaling an office chair. Plus, the wheels are just too thin to really keep upright in icy conditions.

I'll grab a pic or start a thread about it a bit later. I don't wanna clog up this thread with:

msprout, that made me laugh so hard I got looked at funny by coworkers.

and it feels like pedaling an office chair

Whoa there, cowboy.

on the subject (from the last page) of layers, this morning I rode into work in

-tshirt

-long sleeve tshirt

-sweater

-hoodie

-sweatpants

-thin-ass work khakis

-winter gloves ($3 at burlington - and they're awesome. There were parts of my ride where I had to take them off)

-knit winter hat from lucy's in the strip

-two hoods (one from my sweater, one from my hoodie)

-knit scarf (also from lucy's) worn over my face like a balaclava

-one pair of ankle socks (I need regular socks, haha)

-my thin ass shoes

only thing I would have done was wear another pair of sweats, but it wasn't even that bad.

on the way home I lost the long sleeve and took the scarf off of my face. 6 degrees was a big difference.

Also, yesterday, I had pulled onto a sidewalk to adjust my bag, when a guy said, "It's too damn cold to be riding that bike," as though I wasn't aware it was cold. I looked at him and said, "No it isn't."

i have been trying to get Stef to wear more layers on her core for years now. she just keeps ignoring me and trying to get warmer and heavier gloves. personally i prefer this weather to the hot parts of summer. but i also grew up on the shore of one of the great lakes (its still great, even if it is the littlest one!)

Also, yesterday, I had pulled onto a sidewalk to adjust my bag, when a guy said, "It's too damn cold to be riding that bike," as though I wasn't aware it was cold

I got the same thing from a pedestrian on the Ohio trail yesterday afternoon. Dude is walking along, clutching his coat around himself and shivering; looks at me, with a grin on my face, an open jacket and my 'clava pulled down, and says "You gotta be freezing."

bikes: the fastest way to turn any mere human into a radiator.

@msprout where on Lake Superior did you work?

When I lived up there, it was in Ishpeming, MI (in the UP).

When I worked ont he boats, I shipped out of Cleveland. The boats travelled to Duluth a lot. Mostly when we were in Duluth, the younger guys from the boat would cross over to Superior to drink - WI drinking age was 18 back then.

@Cburch - Which lake? Erie (southernmost and shallowest)? Ontario? (smaller, but deeper and farther north than Erie) Or Lake St Clair (which is arguably "Great" and unquestionably smaller than the others).

i sweat with the jacket I listed previously. If i am sweating, do i really need more layers?

Stef, if your hands are cold, part of it might be that your arms are cold. I suppose.

I'm guessing your strategy of putting more, better clothes where you are colder is the best, though.

If I get warm in frigid air, I take off coats and leave the gloves/liners/mittens and hoods/hats/masks on.

Is it possible that you sweat with exercise even if your core temp is cool? I'd guess breathability could be important to you.

Whatever you need to be outdoors and active is good.

Mick i grew up HERE outside Rochester, NY right on the shore of Ontario (north of the ridge that marks the ancient lake shore, so we got insane lake effect) I also spent a lot of time sailing little tiny boats (mostly sunfish and the even smaller sailfish) in the lake and up in the St Lawrence. You think those lakers look big when you are on them or looking at them in pictures, try sailing a 12 foot boat in the shipping channel when one is approaching. I have a great photo somewhere of my dad doing an incredibly stupid thing. he sailed right up to the laker as it was motoring through the channel and i got a photo of him standing in the boat with his hand on the hull of the laker. it wasn't my little sunfish, but it was still only a 16 footer. good times.

I'm on board with cburch, I was always taught in survival courses that you keep your hands and feet warm by keeping your head and torso warm, so maybe if you're sweating it's more of a breathability issue of your clothes. On the other hand, this physiological condition sounds like the normal responses go out the window anyway.

That is one sad thing about Pgh - no sailing.

can't you sail on rivers? (I was on a sailboat once, it was cold, windy, gray, and the "Captain" was a pompous jerk, but I can see how sunshine and beer or a different captain would have made it the best thing ever). I thought morraine had a lake you could sail on too... but I can understand missing a lake of a decent size.

I went sailing once, after a 5 minute "lesson" from a guy who didn't speak much english. After getting stuck pointing straight away from the wind and spending a few minutes figuring out how to get going again, I vowed to be more aggressive with my next turn. Then I got to figure out how to uncapsize the boat in deep water. It was fun, though - aside from the coral reef I brushed against which tortured me for the rest of the week.

if stef and i ever follow through on our talk of moving to hawaii, i will probably start sailing again all the time and damn near never mountain bike. thats how much i love sailing.

also, when you grow up sailing on a great lake and in the seaway, the dinky little ponds we call lakes here are a cruel joke. the dont ever get windy enough or have big enough waves to jump the boat. thats half the fun of having a tiny little thing like a sunfish. sailing in the rivers would be so boring, you'd basically just be able to reach back and forth across the confluence. anything else would require much upstream tacking, which would require much dropping sail and paddling. no thanks, i already have a canoe.

Cburch is not exaggerating. I grew up about 10 miles downstream from Lake Ontario. These things you call rivers... Hm.

Most rivers are too sheltered to get good wind. Actually, most of the St Lawrence is tough to sail in, once you get farther downstream. And even the wide parts, at the top and bottom of the river, get pretty calm between dusk and dawn.

but daytime in the shipping channels near alex bay? hot damn thats some good sailing!

we've got some great rivers if you're a fish.

Sailing in Pittsburgh, on occasion

*Moraine Sailing Club

i'm saaaailling away...

Stefb, did you try something like this?

http://www.alpenheat.com/shop_eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_33&products_id=85

http://www.alpenheat.com/shop_eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_32&products_id=116

http://www.alpenheat.com/shop_eu/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=31_32&products_id=90

Holy thread revival.

what is a fl-kocker anyway, and does it have anything to do with a gang-bang tag?

Not that there's anything wrong with any of that...

holy spam is more like it.