BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I believe working with DPW or Parks to learn what equipment they currently have and then determine how it can best be employed for winter maintenance.

small tractors and bobcats/skid steers can fit on the trail. if the city currently has this equipment, and it's in good working order, then all that may be required is an attachment, an operator and an administration willing to add the trails to their snow routes.

Based on years past, they have the equipment, they may or may not have the operators or the will to add the trails to their snow routes.

The problem is, as I understand it, that the City can only get to the trail(s) once all the streets have been cleared. Last year, as you will recall, that took several weeks.

That's how I understand the problem, too. Priority of the trails is same as a tertiary street, which is not what WE want. We would prefer priority of trails to be with primary streets: plowed early and often.

the main problem last winter is that they cleared the trails a few times early on and then after the storm they cleared them exactly 0 times

http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2010/11/firefly_workshops_pedal-powered_sno.html

Just sayin

it's like a tall bike, except it's a wide bike

I love these snow bikes, in concept. I am trying to find something that I can actually (maybe) pull the money together to buy and have in place this winter.

wow. that's my next freeride project.

oh? freeride closes for the winter this weekend? oops!

If division 3 garage (@ trailhead) can't afford the response we want, then we should either lobby city parks to take over trail "maintenance" which would more easily allow volunteers or non-profits to assist, or we could push the maintenance onto Allegheny County.

Maybe we could get ptag involved and have a commuter trail steward.

Based on the bike plow concept in dback's photo above, why not take it a step further: make a plow that could be clamped between TWO bikes, make the plow wide enough so the bikes would ride on freshly plowed road, and presumably have better traction. And, because there are two riders providing the power, the plow would be able to handle heavier snow over longer distances, or be easier to use under "normal" snowfall conditions.

It would be pushing the snow directly into the path of each bike, though, so the dual-cyclist efficiency would be negated.

if the plow could be v shaped and slightly wider than the two bikes there would be a clear path for power

i see what you mean, and that is the solution. you must go to CMU

If division 3 garage (@ trailhead) can't afford the response we want, then we should either lobby city parks to take over trail "maintenance" which would more easily allow volunteers or non-profits to assist, or we could push the maintenance onto Allegheny County.

@sloaps--I concur. Last year a number of us who passed through Schenley Park right after the "Big Snow" noticed that the Citiparks guys were out plowing out the roads in the park, even though the nearby streets hadn't been touched. I figured it was because the park was their responsibility but the roads were not. It would be great if the trail could be viewed as a park (and aren't parts of it called Three Rivers Park?).

I've seen DPW guys putting up "Snow Emergency Route" signs along streets downtown, along Forbes etc. Clearly some new snow removal plan is in the works in the city.

This has been a really interesting discussion. However, we continue to talk at a time when action is needed, if anything is to be done in time for this winter.

Is anyone actually BUILDING one of the bikeplow designs that have been mentioned? Has anyone committed to USING it during the winter?

Does anyone object to a short term quick fix option?

I think I can get a local foundation to provide equipment - either a plow or a dozen of so shovels/picks/etc to be secured at various locations along the trail.

Either option requires that we identify a volunteer force to USE the equipment to clear the trail. We could create a "Task" Force through Bike Pittsburgh, or perhaps through Friends of the Riverfront, City Parks, etc.

The big problem is that the program I am thinking of for funding the equipment purchase has an application deadline of December 1. If we can't pull something together by then, all bets are off for this winter -- unless someone can actually build and operate a bike plow.

Should I start the dialogue with Bike Pgh, and with Friends of the Riverfront, or is someone going to build something?

Since some mechanism exists to "Adopt a road" where people volunteer to go out and pick up trash occasionally, perhaps that could be used as an example? Except it's snow. And there's very little chance you could be killed.

I live pretty close to the trailhead of junction hollow/jail trail, and wouldn't mind taking turns plowing them after work. I do not volunteer to shovel, by hand, anything. Enough of that to do at home.

In the past, the problem wasn't so much building a pedal-plow, or scraping up extra parts to construct it. Nick seems more than qualified to embark on such a task. The largest issue seems to be where to store the thing when you are done. If you leave your homemade contraption chained to a fence outside, snow, salt, real snow plows and vandals will render it inoperable in short order.

Avalance 311 with complaints when the city fails to clear the trail.

Seriously. Many of us have worked to clear snow. Others have at least considered doing so. We can all contact 311 two or three times a day, depending on how often we sue the trail.

Could this be the most labor-effective thing we could do to get the trail cleared?

Any other political avenues where we could raise such a stink that that it would be evident to the city that they have a problem?

@Mick -

In talking with the Friends of the Riverfront, the City and others, I think a barrage of calls to 311 (early and often) will be the way to go.

The City will plow/clear, just not according to our priorities. We need to be a voice reminding them of the role of trails as communting corridors.

Volunteers are a great way to go, on an occasional and as-needed basis, but is hard to organize for sporadic duty, and flies in the face of the unionized City force who really does want to help - as time permits.

311 seems like a good approach Unless Bike-Pgh and other orgs like Friends of the Riverfront can work a deal with the parks etc.

Sara in terms of your question, I just think it's too much trail for people to do manually, or even with bike plows. A light coating of snow, it might work. But three miles of trail 6 inches (let alone 25 inches) deep? As Dan said I've got enough shoveling to do at home. How long would it take a city pickup truck with a plow blade to do it? Longer now that the detour is in place and the bridge is truly out--but you are talking 10 to 20 minutes versus what, 6 to 10 hours or more? Per "snow event."

I imagine pedaling a pedal-plow down the trail would be fun, at least the first couple times. Even if it took an hour or two, it would still be a nice workout doing something I like to do. Shoveling, not so much fun.

A fossil-fueled sidewalk plow would also be enough fun that I wouldn't mind putting in a couple hours after a big storm.

If the parks department can't do it, I think the trails would be best plowed via a contracted third party like a landscaping company. Their contract would have to have a quality component (think 311 complaints). They used contractors after snowmagedin - without any bidding.

Brr, it's chilly out. Whoo-hoo, winter!

great video, whoo-hoo! Includes some path maintenance!

http://vimeo.com/8597651

^^^ Wow, just wow.

And that path maintenance truck? That's what we need.

Jeff, that is just some type of tractor with a rotary broom on the front and a winter cab on top. Pretty simple setup.

Look at the John Deere web site. You can buy the tractor, then bolt a cab on top. Then you put whatever attachment you want on the front, rotary broom, plow or snowblower. You can even tow a cart with a salt spreader.

You can find these setups used pretty cheep on CL. New might only run you about $15000 with everything you need except for a driver.

Another great option is a skidsteer. They can be outfitted with all the same attachments and the city might be more likely to have one already.

Awesome. Now all I need is a spare $15000.

I suspect the city probably has everything they need to plow those trails already, except the will to do it regularly.

^^^Wot 'e said.

As individuals, I think the best things we can do are 1) keep the city aware that we need trails cleared via 311 calls and 2)take matters into our own hands in areas that are tougher for the city to get to.

For example, the city has the necessary vehicle to clear the Hot Metal ped bridge proper, but they don't have anything that will handle the narrow ramp down to Second Ave. It's the areas that are A) high foot traffic and hard to clear that rapidly turn into icy death traps, and that can best be aided by a little guerrilla shovel action.

+1 Mick with Avalance 311

The City Parks have the smaller tractors and snow removal equipment to clear the sidewalks and I’m sure they can be used on the trails. I live across the street from a city park and I see them clearing and salting the sidewalks all the time during the winter. If they forget the old lady who lives next to me can’t walk her dog and she calls 311 and they come out the next day.

I would assume that all of the riverfront trails fall under the jurisdiction of the County and we would need to call the County hotline for it's snow removal.

they don't have anything that will handle the narrow ramp down to Second Ave

This might be important, now that that there is a long-term detour in place.

would assume that all of the riverfront trails fall under the jurisdiction of the County and we would need to call the County hotline for it's snow removal.

I don't know for sure, but doubt that's true of anything within the city limits of Pittsburgh.

The County maintains the snow removal for County roads, bridges, and parks. The City maintains the removal of snow for it's roads and parks. They also have agreements to maintain some of each other’s roads & bridges when it makes sense geography.

They probably don't have agreements for snow removal on the trails. I’m sure the City and County both have the equipment to clear the path down Second Av. It’s just a mater of finding out who’s responsible for it and to make sure it gets on the snow maintenance list.

Next really big snow, could someone (other than me, who's 14 miles away) please get at least one shovel width of snow removed on the HMB Second Ave ramp before it turns to an ice pack? Four hours of beating my steel shovel into a potato chip to clear a 75-foot path is really not my idea of a good time, no matter how good I felt afterward.

Jeff, that is pretty cheep for a piece of equipment. The labor dollars that is required to operate the equipment is the expensive part. Some union worker at $30+/hr adds up quickly.

If bike pgh could come up with the equipment, I would be willing to operate the equipment when needed. I have lots of experience at snow removal from working in Colorado doing property maintenance. In the winter I could work part time at my current job and part time for bike pgh, or who ever is willing to pay for the snow removal.

Okay, there's a sidewalk plow. I've seen it the past few days going along the Panther Hollow Road sidewalk around 7:15 am. I don't recall this thing being around last year during the big storms (or else it was being used someplace else, since I walked that route regularly).

Now, I'm all for sidewalks being cleared. In fact, I complain about it all the time as a pedestrian and runner (and shoveler!). BUT, surely they aren't considered primary roads.

This thing would be great on the trails!

Anybody notice that the Panther Hollow Trail was cleared a few days ago?

All the more reason why they need to contract out what they can't do easily or quickly. We, the cycling community, need to make the case that clearing trails need to be primary, or at least equivalent to Next Thing We Do After Making Sure The Fire Trucks Can Get Through. EFT and HMB are our equivalent to major thoroughfares. Making them priority reduces the need to get all the other streets done.

Looks like the sidewalk plow did the paved trail in Schenley behind the pool this morning also.

I don't see the case for the trails being such a high priority. As cyclists, we can use the main roads. (I certainly did.) It was a problem that cross country skis worked better than a bike on most main roads for several days after the snowfall.

@johnwheffner - that brings up a good point. There might be more than one or two xcountry skiers that would be happy if the trails went unploughed for long enough. I'm not one, so I don't know. But the two activities require different maintenance schedules. I'm not saying there's a plethora of skiers with poles a-fire to keep the city from clearing the trails, but cyclists aren't the only group who use those trails.

JohnWeffner As cyclists, we can use the main roads

Sure we can. But that's like saying that cars don't need the parkway - regular main road can take them wherever they need to go.

The bicycle alternatives to using the trails for trips like Greenfield-Downtown or Oakland-SouthSide are difficult and dangerous at best. They are much worse with snow and ice.

There are plenty of trails in Schenley and Frick for Cross country. To my knowledge, there is no one in town who uses skis for tranportation.

If the snow were more reliable I would love to xc ski to work all winter.

The city's new snow removal plan gives expected times for all city streets to be plowed.

With 3 inches of snow or less, plowing should be completed 12 to 24 hours after a storm. With 3 to 6 inches of snow, plowing should be complete in 16 to 32 hours; and with 6 to 10 inches, 24 to 48 hours. With snowfall of more than 10 inches, however, the response will be based on "storm variables."

From http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10343/1109420-53.stm#ixzz1886n4kUK

At a minimum, bike trails should also be plowed within those time frames. If they can do the tertiary streets in that time, they should be doing the trails too.

As to the priority of bike trails versus streets, I think it should be based largely on usage. How many people use a given trail per day in the winter, when it's plowed? Then it should be plowed with roughly the same priority as a street used by that same number of people daily.

I'm guessing that would place most bike trails with the tertiary or perhaps secondary streets, not with the emergency or primary routes.

To my knowledge, there is no one in town who uses skis for tranportation.

In February, I got my dad's old cross-country skis out and I skied from my house on Ellsworth down past the Cathedral of Learning, down Panther Hollow, and out to Penn and Highland in East Liberty. You've never skied until you've skied on Centre Avenue.

It was phenomenal. People kept taking pictures of me; I felt like a minor celebrity.

I stopped at Giant Eagle on Negley Avenue on my way home and mangoes were on sale for a dollar each, rather than $1.50. Of course I bought a couple, and perhaps became the first person in the history of the world to ever ski to go buy mangoes.

@ Steven As to the priority of bike trails versus streets, I think it should be based largely on usage. How many people use a given trail per day in the winter, when it's plowed? Then it should be plowed with roughly the same priority as a street used by that same number of people daily.

+1

ieverheart - your story is awesome, and prooves the point: if somebody can, somebody will.

I want this to plow the trails.

I want that to plow my driveway! In the summer I could mount a lawn mower to it. Maybe even a pooper scooper for the dog!

dang, u must have a big dog

Yea, one of his "deposits" just about fills a regular shovel.

he named his kid bubby.

Bubby:Steelers::Bubby:RoboPlow - this invention is flawed.

Ok, I've contacted some of you directly, but will reach out to the group here.

Friends of the Riverfront has the ability to position (and lock into place) snow removal equipment for use by volunteers along the Eliza Furnace Trail and the Hot Metal Bridge. They are ready to put the equipment in place any time now (and hopefully before the next snow....)

We are still looking for a few volunteers who will be given access to the equipment (via lock combinations). The thought is that as conditions deteriorate, authorized volunteers could use the equipment for a short distance/time, reposition it along a fence or ??? so that it is ready for the next authorized volunteer to do another little section. That way, the risk of equipment theft is kept low, the trail is likely to be kept relatively clear, and no one has to haul shovels or other equipment down to the trail.

If you are interested in participating as a Winter Trail Maintenance Volunteer, please send me your name and email at Swalfoort at spcregion dot org.

Thanks!

This is awesome!

Do you have any more details at this point – like would there be a schedule? Time of day to do the work?

@Kbrooks - no, the magic is no schedule is required. For an average light snowfall, work could be done at any time. Anyone with the required authorization could grab a shovel and help clear the path at any time it was needed. You could spend five minutes at it, if that's all your schedule permitted, or longer, if you felt so inclined. For larger snowfall events, a special call for reinforcements at a designated time would probably be required, but we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

I'm all in favor of this.

(I do look forward to seeing two or three cyclists show up at the HMB at once and start squabbling over the shovel...what a problem to have.)

Seems like a very creative idea.

Squabbling-wise, maybe the existing trail conditions twitter feed could help?

Steven - thanks for the Twitter link, I didn't know there was such a thing.

I wonder if, instead of shovels, it might be more appropriate to use "wovels"?

@ Vann - we use what we can afford.....unfortunately. Although I suspect the wovels would be harder to steal!

The Twitter feed can be of assistance. Right now I think Ian and I are the only ones who are posting updates. The account could benefit from someone who rides the river trails regularly as I rarely do this time of year.

@Swalfoort, have you reached out to REI? Last year there were several employees who rode the bridge throughout the winter.

@Swalfort, I understand... they just seem so "bikey".

@rsprake, I never knew about this Twitter feed, I think it's awesome and will use it in the future!

The Wovel has a nice write up in the Post-Gazette today.