BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

In my town you can get a permit to close a street for a block party, thereby causing a minor inconvenience for people who would otherwise pass down the street for the duration of the event.

It sounds like the casino is being responsible about it, with pre-notification, ADA compliance, etc.

Do they need a permit from the city for this closure - i'm sure they need one for the event itself.

Nice PR wording. My understanding is that this is actually a live fight begin held at the casino's outside ampitheater, not a televised or indoor event. So it's probably more along the lines of "we don't want anyone stopping and watching for free" than it is a concern of safety and large crowds.

Right before the table games went live, the casino held an outdoor celebration for it's employee's and families and the trail remained open. There were signs up that said "Private Party," but no one stopped me from riding through.

I'd imagine the detour will simply use the sidewalk going around the other side of the casino.

I am afraid that Erok got it mostly right.....

they can close it any time they feel they need to. All they have to do is play the "safety" card. Doesn't even have to be an even that is at higher than anticipated capacity. City is working on it.

I rode through there once when there were a lot of people outside partying. It was an unpleasant ride since the people there ignored you. You had to swerve and stop and beg to be let through. I can't envision a good detour around there, hopefully there is an adequate one; that would be better than trying to go through those crowds.

When its super crowded, like 4th of july, I found it easier to just walk my bike, but then, the entire trail from point state park till past the casino was slam packed. It still wasnt detoured tho.

I agree that it isnt great precedence, but at least they did work out a detour, unlike many of the previous trail closings.

I rode through there once when there were a lot of people outside partying. It was an unpleasant ride since the people there ignored you. You had to swerve and stop and beg to be let through.

Sounds a lot like any nice Saturday afternoon on the trail between PNC Park and the river, especially if there's a game or anything going on.

This morning they were already setting stuff up, but I had no trouble biking through.

I'm of two minds about this. On one hand, I don't like when they get high-handed and just declare the trail closed. On the other hand, when there's a big crowd out there, the trail is effectively closed anyway; there's no safe way to bike through. So, if they know that an event is going to create that kind of situation anyway, I'd certainly rather see them provide a detour than not.

The one thing that I think they're missing on is posting warnings on the trail. Even this morning, there was no sign or anything saying that they plan to close the trail and saying that there would be a detour. I hope that the detour is well-marked when the route is closed.

There is a good detour around the front of the casino and back around the back of it. It should be fine.

Sara, where did you hear that the City is working on this issue?

Well, we did foresee this happening from time to time [last year's thread].

For now, I'm with rsprake, as it's probably less trouble for everyone to take the detour than to deal with a crowded sidewalk in the dark.

But still, it'd be nice if they'd sign the trails with a day or two's notice.

In my town you can get a permit to close a street for a block party, thereby causing a minor inconvenience for people who would otherwise pass down the street for the duration of the event.

the difference is it's for a block party, open to the public. this is closing a public space for private profit. after this practice run, what's to stop them from closing it for INSERT REASON HERE whenever they want?

Gah, Erok makes a great point.

Erok: restaurants right now can get a permit to put tables on the sidewalk (the public thoroughfare) to have outdoor seating - effectively occupying public space for private profit. It is in many municipalities a matter of permitted use. I don't see how the Casino's use of some public property under a permit is any different.

I'm not arguing in favor of "the man," just trying to explain what appears to be a relevant precedent.

Also, if it is a permitted use or a conditional use "what is keeping them from closing the trail (insert reason here)" is the municipality. The municipality is responsible to regulate this. Unless i'm missing something, I am assuming they have a permit for the closure and the event. The municipality - the City of Pittsburgh, can place conditions or restrictions on the applicant - or they can reject a conditional use altogether.

i'm not against using public space for profit. sidewalk cafe's don't make people take a detour for the cafe, they share the space.

I'm not sure what the issue you're pursuing here is, Erok. It's a four-hour event window, 6-10PM on a Saturday night, they have a permit, they have made notice, they have prepared and will provide direction for a proper detour - shouldn't the Casino be recognized for that - in fact considering all of the other trail and route interruptions around town that just suddenly pop-up (such as the Furnace Trail/Bates Street detour), they have gone above and beyond.

So, am I missing something?

I totally see Eroks point - precedent. This event is a temporary thing, and they seem to have provided very reasonable arrangements - this time. It will just be up to the bike community and city to make sure they fully re-open the trail in a timely manner when their event is over, and continue in any future events to provide good trail accomodations. Any complacency could definitely lead to a creeping sense of "entitlement" to the trail on the part of the Casino management. That can't happen.

I wonder if they are closing it for pedestrians too? If not, what is to stop you from dismounting, and walking your bike through?

Did anyone go near there yesterday? I'm curious as to how it was and if this will become a "regular" thing.

the precedent is that under the arrangement they made with the city, the only reason they would close the trail is for safety reasons. it seems they want to use "safety" to mean "when we want to close the trail"

Imagine if we could get the city to agree to close streets "for safety reasons" when we have our group bike rides. How cool with that be? I'll chip in $5 for the permit and construct a few homebrew signs. Seems anyone can throw up a homemade sign on a bike right-of-way and nobody can do a thing. What happens if someone tried to pull that shit to keep cars off a street?

Happens all the time: St. Patrick's Day Parade, First Night, Super Bowl/Stanley Cup Parade, Pittsburgh great Race, Pittsburgh Marathon, Pittsburgh Vintage Gran Prix.

And they don't have to use home made signs, because they just go down to the city, plunk down the fee and apply for a permit.

Yeah, im still not sure that this event sets any precedent of any kind. They close the northshore trail for 5k races a couple times a year. And even tho the companies generally closing them are charities, they are still closing them to make money. I dont think you can make the distinction between for profit and non profit companies since, bike-pgh excluded of course, there are non profit companies that are just as corrupt for profit companies.

didn't see this in person, but another list i'm on says that they didn't even bother to put up detour signs, just trail closed signs.

Now that this has passed, might it be a good time to approach them and say, "Next time you decide to do this, can we agree on how BEST to handle it?" As an initial list, I would suggest:

1) 72 hours notice, post notices on the trails that a detour will be in place

2) 24 hours ahead, have the detour in place and signed (so anyone can try them and explain it to others who might need to use it the next day)

3) Day-of, indicate probable time that the detour will be in place (at the point of closure),

4) Day-of, indicate what the restrictions will actually be -- complete closure, walk-thru OK, whatever.

5) Afterward, have closure signs down within 1? 2? hours

6) Afterward, have the to-be-closed signs on the trails down within 24 hours (because they probably don't want to chase out onto the trails at 11pm just to retrieve signs, which seems reasonable)

I don't think what I'm suggesting above is that unreasonable. OTOH, they way they are doing what they're doing is not a whole lot different from giving us the corporate finger.

Stuff like this is annoying but if it is basically just an "around the block" detour that is not bad. A block party at least usually involves the people in that neighborhood and only inconviences people that cut through the neighborhood to get somewhere else. Something like this to cars would be on par with closing 5th in Oakland or Carson in the SS.

from today's Post Gazette

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10249/1085391-152.stm

Good article. I am thankful for our great advocacy groups.

Best paragraph:

"You can't add seating to your venue and overwhelm the trail that accommodates it, and then close the trail citing public safety issues," says Mark Fatla, executive director of the Northside Leadership Conference. "You created the public safety issue."