BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

What are your starting and stopping points in your commute?

Stanton at Negley to Liberty in the strip. I'm happier anyway with Negley - Ellsworth - Panther Hollow - jail trail - Grant - Smallman. Nicer ride, less stress. Liberty up in Bloomfield just feels sketchy during commute time.

Liberty: we're hoping that it will get repaved this year. the paving schedule has yet to be released. it's supposedly not political. if it's repaved, we're expecting some additional bike infrastructure (especially near the b-field bridge where we really need it) as well as some more durable road markings.

as far as eastbound thru larryville. dip down at 40th st and head east thru the neighborhood. the roads are really chill, especially plummer and hatfield. you can get all the way to at least 50th, cutting out the most narrow/congested areas.

I take Liberty Avenue outbound fairly often, and think that for that commute, it is the best route. The one you list (using the Jail Trail) takes you waaaay out of your way--it's twice as long as the direct route via Liberty Avenue.

Coming from downtown, I used to take Liberty Avenue, but now I think Smallman Street is a much better option until the bike lane on Liberty starts around Herron Avenue. Where the lane ends and the sharrows starts, it flattens out (in the main business district) so I can keep up with other traffic. As for potholes and disappearing sharrows, Negley and Ellsworth are really not any better.

There are definitely side streets you can take. Unless you are not in a hurry, I would not take the Jail Trail route on this commute.

Quizbot, are you expecting bike lanes on liberty -- invisible or otherwise -- to allow you to safely pass slower-moving cars on their right? Or are they passing you, but only just barely, and then dodging around a stopped car to their left?

If the former, this is probably something you shouldn't do. Overtaking on the right must be done very very carefully if at all.

If the latter, the way to prevent this is to ride farther to the left. Liberty ave between Main and the hospital is just too narrow to share safely -- riding too far right encourages this kind of dangerous motorist behavior.

I take this commute daily. Inbound, I do penn, but quickly cut over to coral to avoid the crappy sections through garfield. I then come back to penn around the cemetery and take that the rest of the way downtown, I find I have to be cautious down the hill but can generally keep up with traffic and take the lane.

Outbound, I generally take smallman but cut over to railroad to avoid the crappy sections of smallman. once railroad ends I cut over to liberty and take the bike lane up the hill, turn left onto ella (at the bloomfield bridge) and wind my way through friendship.

Not the fastest way to do it, but easily the least stressful and much faster than jail trail.

Liberty during rush hour can be pretty wild, but so long as I slow down and anticipate what a driver is going to do I am fine. If you use the sharrow as they are supposed to be used you will be riding in the lane and stuck in traffic, if you're riding to the right of the sharrow you're going to have to deal with the consequences.

The road conditions are terrible though. I will give you that.

you can ride back streets and river trails from stanton to the strip... just keep hugging the river... of course you have to conquer stanton every day, but i kind of enjoy it after doing it every day for a couple weeks

I use Liberty inbound in the mornings. Coming home, I go out of my way to use the jail trail instead. I don't know if it's a different traffic load in the afternoon than the morning, if it's the other side of the street, or what, but I swear, the drivers in the morning are pretty much fine, and in the afternoon, they're pretty much all homicidal maniacs with a special hatreds for cyclists.

Penn Ave, same story. No problems inbound in the morning. I prefer Liberty because the timing of the lights seems to be a little better. Outbound, nothing but pure evil.

There are just less people trying to squeeze through there in the morning.

no one WANTS to get to work in the morning. at night they all NEED TO BE HOME SO GET OUT OF THE WAY!!!!!!!

I agree. Drivers are much more nuts around 6 pm than they are at 9 am. I refuse to bike the same roads at night that I do in the morning. Maybe 6 pm is just the wrong time for me to be out there?

I find that if I leave work at 5pm the commute up Liberty is wild and crazy, people trying to get around turning cars, parallel parking etc. If I leave at 6pm it's much more calm.

Good point about the time of day. I generally commute at off-peak times. I've probably been trained without realizing it.

+1 for Mark's suggestion. When I did basically the same commute a few years ago, I often connected the maze of side streets in Larry-ville to get to the Strip. Aside from a small stretch just west of 40th, I think you can avoid Butler most of the way.

what about the alley behind the buncher buildings along the railroad/busway from 21st to 28th streets in the strip? when I head to the eastend from my office on 21st I take the alley all the way to sassafras, then sassafras to 32nd which is where I pick up liberty. totally low key

Ha I came to the message board to complain about Negley.

Negley: Is there any way we can work on getting, at the very very least, Share the Road signs put it from Highland Park to Center Ave? It is not unreasonable to expect bikes there, but I am looking for anything to encourage motorists to recognize us. The road is in horrendous shape in this section and to add to that the 4 lanes encourage cars to absolutely fly by and accelerate, even despite the amount of pedestrians between Black St and Penn, Where the charter school is. As a pedestrian I have been nearly hit more than once in the last 6 months, and have seen others jaywalking nearly hit as well.

Anything? Anything? I really wish I could avoid riding this stretch of Negley but it is really the only way out of HP and East Lib to anywhere.

** I was not jaywalking when hit. I try to follow rules so that when I do get hurt I can be all justified about how pissed I am going to be.

**NEARLY hit. sheesh what is it today. I blame Negley.

you can definitely avoid all of butler and penn on decent roads with skinny tires...

map

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=3619337

Hey Caitlin, you can use Euclid when heading south, and you can bob and weave through the middle of Penn Circle (including a shortcut through the muffler shop) heading north.

I actually walked Negley yesterday from Friendship to Hampton (silly flat tire) and I was surprised at bad it was. I must be numb to it on my bike.

+1 on Euclid.

also, there's always black st/mossfield... i always feel safe on that road, i know there are people that don't... but i prefer it to penn or anything else when it makes sense

Mossfield is okay, but I've ridden home (toward Morningside) during evening rush hour, and it was pretty busy. The road is fairly wide, but I didn't feel terribly comfortable given that most cars don't adhere to the posted speed limit.

!@#$%^& scofflaw motorists!!

I really wish I could avoid riding this stretch of Negley but it is really the only way out of HP and East Lib to anywhere.

Is Highland too far across for your use? I find it much saner than Negley.

Highland's great until you're on that stretch between Home Depot and Penn. Then it's absolute madness, from poor street conditions to pedestrians all over the road to cars darting out from those cross streets... and then of course there's the drivers who are already irritated from those very conditions...

I agree Negley is a mess and a half, I don't think I'd ever feel comfortable riding that stretch between e.lib blvd and center.

I got hit crossing negley @ black a few years back (as a pedestrian). I was following all the rules, waiting for the light and all that but the car didn't see me coming around the bus I had just gotten off of -crossing in front. The car was going to try and edge in front of the bus and BOOM (nothing serious).

But I did notice that the black/mossfield is not a recommended path on the bike pgh map and was curious as to why because it is a nice short cut and pretty empty during off peak hours.

Mossfield is okay during off-times, but during evening rush, at least, it is very busy heading toward HP/Morningside. Not as much heading toward Garfield, though.

It's also quite dark at night, and drivers are even more inclined to speed around the slightly blind bends.

The Negley/Black intersection is horrible for all road users, I think. Negley goes from two lanes to one northbound, and there no road markers to indicate that (nor a left turn only lane, which would probably be very helpful, except when cars park on Negley right at the intersection).

Highland through the circle is kinda like a video game. I suppose the advantage of it over Negley is that car traffic tends to adhere to the speed limit a bit better.

you can always take heron to melwood and then ride under the bloomfield bridge to baum. but then you have to ride through north oakland on either baum or center...

Negley is a disaster. I hit a gaping pothole too hard @ Black and Negley last August (it was either that or swerve into traffic... but nonetheless it caused me to fly off my bike and into traffic at that intersection--which thankfully nothing worse happened). I haven't, for good reason, taken Negley for a while on bike, but know that it is still a wreck itself. I've been riding Euclid these past few days to get from HP to EL, which I never really used to take. @Bjanaszek: describing it as a video game sounds about right. I've been genuinely confused navigating my way through the circle as of late. When you get from Euclid at that stop sign, and enter the circle, I am confused about traffic protocol. As a biker, am I supposed to remain to the right? Or since traffic is one way, can I make my way to the left side of the circle? To me, the left makes more sense since there are a few opportunities to veer right (which makes me skittish about drivers). I eventually need to make a left at Center Ave. and once more get into the right lane. Not really sure what the best way to move through is... suggestions?

You can legally ride on either the right side or the left side of a multi-lane one-way street.

http://www.dot.state.pa.us/BIKE/WEB/bikelaws.htm

Awesome- thanks, Lyle.

Speaking of video games... riding down Negley (on bike or in car) is like the biggest game of Frogger ever. Pedestrians crossing everywhere and anywhere regardless of traffic, cars flying hither and thither... whew.

negley between black and penn seems, for one reason or another, way worse in a car for me than by bike. maybe it's the 10-300 pedestrians wearing all black that you can expect to jump in front of you at any moment. they're much easier to avoid by bike.

but that street needs repaved. its entire extent, from squirrel hill to highland park. the shadyside section is like a war zone, and trying to avoid parked cars, moving cars, cars going around non-moving (turning) cars, scofflaw pedestrians, and lanes that converge or multiply every block, as well as potholes that provide shelter for bridge trolls...it's a bit much sometimes.

so true about Negley. either mode of trans makes me feel like my brain gets rattled-- I guess I'd prefer this happen in a helmet.

@rsprake: I'm not trying to pass slower cars on the right, these are people jumping out of line behind a left-turner into the invisible bike lane that give me the most trouble on Liberty.

Good tips from folks re: alternates, I'll try some lower larryville wiggle up to Stanton, which I definitely don't have a problem with (doing 4 or 5 Butler -> Stanton -> Negley loops once a

week for hill intervals). Inbound via Liberty is definitely calmer than out, could be the time of day. I really need to log some miles so will probably stick with jail trail in the am unless there's a rush... it's the times that I need to get home quickly at night that are the worst. It's primarily Liberty between Bloomfield Bridge & Millvale that makes me feel uncomfortable & obviously needs some attention to infrastructure.... agreed that Negley is a POS too.

these are people jumping out of line behind a left-turner into the invisible bike lane that give me the most trouble on Liberty.

That's not a bike lane, it's a shared lane. Doesn't excuse the drivers from jumping in front of you though.

I thought it had stripes in the past? Was it always just sharrows?

It has been sharrows for as long as I have been riding that route.

Anyone confirm? Bueller?

Is there anything that can be done about the 'bulge' on Butler street? It is right between the parked cars & moving traffic.... it annoys the hell out of my.

Plus.. potholes around Main & Butler ... very bumpy

re: the bulge. that's from trucks and buses. it will be there until they repave it.

re: liberty. bike lane was always west of the bridge, sharrows always east of the bridge

re: the bulge. that's from trucks and buses. it will be there until they repave it.

I always thought that bulge was because there are trolley tracks burried under the asphalt and then the trucks and buses moving over the hot asphalt cause it to deform along the tracks? Whatever it is +1 bikeygirl it's annoying as anything in traffic.

There's a strip of bulge on Highland as well that has pretty much been there forever, between Alder and Walnut. Never been a fan.

*sigh* Why is it that the cyclists have to endure the worst parts of the bumpy pavement-patching like Liberty in Bloomfield?

Center Ave is indeed bad, a comparable area would be Schenley Drive Ext near the museums. Same issue with the concrete breaking apart at the seams, although it's a much much shorter street. Can we convince city officials NOT to use concrete slabs for streets anymore?

I'd want some civil engineering experts to make any such recommendations. I suspect that concrete slabs are the most durable solution for the same budget. Otherwise I think you end up with all the ruts and ridges.

I was generally surprised with how much concrete road surface there is in pittsburgh when I moved here, given how the up-front cost is exponentially more expensive. Granted, I'm not so surprised as to how it has been maintained and used way past its expected lifetime.

Depending on how it's done, concrete can last a very long time. The East Busway Extension, from Wilkinsburg to Rankin, was built with concrete that's supposed to last 50 years. Reasoning: Henry Nutbrown, who just took over as PAT's construction chief, had just recently retired from PennDOT, and demanded "the good stuff" be used. Source of info: Port Authority planning guy Mike Moorman, on a 5/18/2003 tour for ACTC of the extension just before it opened in June 2003. So, how's the ride (out past Wilkinsburg) holding up after 7 winters?

I should take my own advice, and avoid Liberty outbound in Bloomfield after work. I'm in the sharrow at Liberty and Cedarville tonight, guy in a black Prius, PA DMM-4672, he's on the phone, cuts into me to get out of line behind a left hand turner at Cedarville as I'm going along side with him.

Chase him down, catch up at Millvale.

Me: "Excuse me sir, but do you know that you just cut me off back at the last light? Are you paying attention to the road?"

Him: "FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE!" ... returns to phone call, rolls up window. Well, thanks, Mr. Environmentally Concerned Motorist.

I could have easily chased again but just let it go...

Cedarville intersection in particular is a major pinch point, with no dedicated left hand turning lane as there is at Taylor. I'm just wondering what the point is of having sharrows up there at all, because there seems to be no respect - either ditch the sharrows because they provide a false sense of security - or fix the Cedarville left with a dedicated bike lane or left turn stripes or something.

i just take the lane in business districts. there's no point in letting anyone pass me. this works well for most of butler through lawrenceville. although in somewhere like bloomfield, i'm often gliding past all that traffic jam anyway.

what nick said. plus, for both to and away from town, i've been really digging gold way/melwood through polish hill this year. herron's a good bit steeper than liberty, but a) i usually prefer steeper and shorter, even when i'm tired, and 2) the calming lack of traffic makes it feel easier anyway. don't know quite where you're heading, but last time i went through polish hill to shadyside from the strip, it took me a good deal less time than through bloomfield.

You don't have to ride "on the sharrow". Many times they are placed too far to the right. Off the top of my head, I think that all the sharrows on Liberty are too far right.

If you look into the history of sharrows and how the standards for placement were developed, you will understand why.

The sharrows & bike lanes on Liberty are just about pointless. There is car parking on the other side, so the lanes force you right into the door zone. It's always a bit harrowing when I'm going down the hill towards town during morning rush.

@Hidden Variable - re: from Strip, through Polish Hill... if I go up Herron and bear left on Melwood, can I get all of the way to Center Ave in North Oakland?

that would take you to baum via gold way, then you would have to turn left, then take any right to get to center. yeah that's an awesome route.

probably not helpful, but if you bike into work at 6am from morningside (turning down the part of baker that doesn't go past the zoo), down butler, onto penn, it's not bad. but i guess that can be said about any time that doesn't involve rush hour. but i do refuse to ride on negley any time of day... unless it's between hampton and the zoo.

on friday i was riding up liberty to get home and some pedestrians were jaywalking. i i slowed to let them pass, but the guy said to the woman he was with "they never follow any of the rules".. assuming he was taking about me/cyclists. i decided to refrain from pointing out the fact that he was jaywalking.