BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I like pavement but the runners probably prefer the limestone. Pavement has its issues but at least you don't have to maintain it every spring.

I like crushed limestone, and don't mind pavement. Overall, for riverfront trail purposes I prefer limestone for one key reason: relatively cheap (and quick) repair/upkeep. The crushed limestone trail may be a mess right now, but fixing it after a long winter is relatively cheap and relatively easy. A paved trail might appear to weather the winter better, but may still experience subsurface wear. The costs of repairing the pavement is far more time consuming, weather dependent and expensive than just laying down more crushed limestone. Wasn't that one of the key lessons learned from the Hurricane Ivan experience?

yeah, but i prefer riding on the southside riverfront trail much more. i suppose the crushed limestone does keep rollerbladers off.

i think if it's going to be a true commuting option, it needs to be plow-able.

For running, crushed limestone is fantastic. If you were going to pave it, at least go with asphalt and not concrete.

I do see your point about commuting though. I suppose limestone only makes sense for recreational trails as opposed to trails which serve a useful purpose as alternatives to high-traffic roadways. But the North Shore trail runs parallel to some nice back roads anyway so I think if one were biking and the trail were impassable they could just take one of those roads. Sure, they might be impassable too given the response to this winter's blizzard, but at least they're plowable.

i'm a big fan of the paved in the middle, crushed limestone on the sides...as long as it is maintained for the runners.

i'd like to see a paved ramp on either end of river road. so i can jump off the trail when the pavement ends near the condos and onto river road, then back onto the trail at the 31st street bridge (and the soon to be paved trail to milvale). to make this truly awesome, they would need to pave over the railroad tracks. this would leave the crushed limestone to the walkers.

I ride the section from pnc park to just before the 31st street bridge to work daily and would like to see it paved. Last summer anytime it would rain the section of trail I rode would get rutted up from water draining across it. I know i can take the road there and I do but it would be nice to not have to worry about cars and cruise nice and slow to work without the bumpy ride the ruts create.

I use that trail every day for my commute. I don't think it makes a lot of difference to me, but then again, I use a mountain bike, so I don't mind some bumps here and there. When the river rises, as it did for Ivan, or even a couple of weeks ago, it doesn't really matter, because the portion of the trail between the 9th St bridge and the Science Center is submerged, anyway.

FWIW, the trail is just fine now.

Never thought about this intently before, so;

I like the paved Eliza Furnace trail, however,

- Asphalt is made of a nasty petroleum or coal based by-product and is energy intensive to make and install.

- Impervious pavement contributes to storm water runoff.

- the paved surface seems to contribute to a higher speed differential between strollers and bikers, possibly more dangerous, though I haven't heard of any specific altercations. And anyone going over about 15 mph ought to be on a road anyway.

I guess in the case of the EFT, the absence of a decent road alternative between those destinations makes the paved surface really the best in my mind.

For the limestone trails, what we need is a trail Zamboni.

crushed limestone is maintenance intensive. that's okay, if DPW is prompt with their maintenance.

either way, drainage is an issue with these trails. the limestone requires more drainage, because the water will flow down through. the water must be caught beneath the limestone and carried away. pavement needs a proper pitch to the surface and edge drains to carry the water away. Those bird baths on the eliza furnace trail do much harm. Without proper drainage, the limestone trails liquify, erode and rut, while the paved trails heave and lose their edges to freeze/thaw action - like a rural two-lane road with no shoulder.

Luck for us, these types of wear aren't happening too fast because cars and trucks don't run on the trails...

The trails do have a posted speed limit of 15mph btw (although I have been know to do in excess of 25 in some sections myself).. My one complaint with the crush limestone, if you are on a road bike, it can be a bit rough. The state of that stretch of the trail in particular makes me never want to ride it. Just my opnion here, but given the speediness at which maintenance is done on the trails, I think paving would be a better solution and would increase use in general.

I have seen people get to the section just past the washingtons landing switchback and turn around because it looks less like a trail and more like a wide footpath that wasnt intended for cycles.

Cobbles! (under the influence of last night's A Sunday in Hell viewing)

i don't know, i rode a bit of the north shore trail the other day, on a road bike, and it was pretty rutted and sucky. i've also straight up fallen on it in the past, because of potholes that have worn away the surface that i didn't see because i was on it at night.

on a side note, anyone else get freaked out when they see that sculpture at night?

on a side note, anyone else get freaked out when they see that sculpture at night?

Yes!

i think if it's going to be a true commuting option, it needs to be plow-able.

i would only side with paved if it really is going to be plowed. otherwise i say limestone.

Limestone is alright, but tends to destroy your bike with the extra grit it puts on everything and in my experience crushed limestone trails are seemingly always in poor repair.

I would say that from an accident-point of view, paved is better... I had an accident on my bike at the North trail on Sunday (a combination of too many people riding, people not obeying trail-rules, narrow trail area, and asswipes flying over the speed limit).... anyhow, to avoid a front colission with asswipe I ended wiping on the gravel, which left some holes in my knee requiring stitches to close them up... If it had been paved I would probably just had gotten scratched evenly pretty bad, but with the grit that the gravel (or limestone) created, I ended with a semi-deep flap of skin open...

So, yeah.... I vote paved...

i understand the permeable pavement thing, but in the grand scheme of things, it's such a minute amount, considering how much is paved over for cars.

also, if they have to run a truck a few times a year to smooth it out and put more limestone down, it sort of negates the fossil fuel savings

I prefer paved.

You might get a way different answer distribution if you posted the question on a jogger/triathalon/pedestrian board. Or a skaters/boarders board.

Mick

Do all the bike trails in the city have that 15mph speed limit? If so I'd like to see a few signs put up. I am sick of people passing me unannounced on my left as I am already passing someone. This happened to me on the southside trail the other day and the guy that tried to get passed me almost caused a pileup.

And yes erok when I get stuck at work and come home late at night I always think that statue is waiting to get me.

i think a pave limestone mix is best, probably put the limestone on the non-river side... maybe even sandwich the limestone in between two paved paths... one in each direction... thats how some of the trails in Minneapolis are and i thought it was great

Which sculpture freaks you out? The cut-out man doesn't bother me, but when I go down the Ohio, I'm always convinced that Mud-man Mister Rogers is crouched, waiting to spring down and eat me.

I really like the limestone sandwich method that mark mentioned. To me that would let people know that they should travel in the right hand lane and with any luck the traffic would flow better.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_roads

When I was in Vancouver, the paved trail in Stanley Park had a grass median down the middle to separate people going in opposite directions. Further, there were lane markers painted on each track, with one side for fast-moving wheeled vehicles (bikes, skates, etc) and the other side pedestrian-only.

I think that'd never fly here. Even if you could get the construction costs together, I seriously doubt that people would stay in their lanes.

Many of the trails in California have gravel next to a paved trail, either on one side, or both (where there is room). Places where the trail narrowed for a bridge or road crossing, everyone would have to merge onto the pavement.

The walkers/runners tend to stick to the gravel, while cyclists ride on the pavement. On the American River trail, there are lots and lots of signs telling walkers/runners to run on the left side, so they can see a bike coming.

I'm not sure what kind of additional maintenance headaches this kind of trail would create, but at least the paved part should be plowable.

The gravel trails through Schenley park seem to be in a constant state of repair all summer long. It seems their solution to washed away parts is to dump lose gravel/sand in the holes/low areas. It sucks when you hit that stuff with your bike (since it looks near identical to the hard packed areas), and immediately loose all traction. I've fishtailed a few times, but luckily have remained upright.

dwillen...that is beautiful.

I like the combination of pavement/limestone, much like what dwillen posted, or at lease the style you see on the jail trail with limestone on either side. The trails aren't exclusively for bikes, so to facilitate everyones needs I feel that pavement-only kind of sucks. There are practical notions for both stone-only and pavement-only, but for a really acceptable - everyone is happy - sort of trail, I think hybrid is the only real solution.

that picture dwillen posted is supposed to be what the jail trail is... i think doing the opposite (having two paved trails with a large limestone/gravel part in the middle) deals with runoff and losing limestone much better... apparently the romans invented it so who's to argue really?

the trails in vancouver are amazing... if we could have anything anywhere close to what they have (multi-level seperated trails for bike/fast traffic and slow traffic each with directional barriers too) i would be happy...

I think it's an interesting idea to have a slow limestone trail lower in elevation and closer to the river for walker/joggers and a higher one for bike/bladers

YES!! a chance to use this photo again

Someone with some photoshop skillz needs to put those Romans on something like the Arenberg Trench instead of grass.

i think we should all think of chances to use the photo as often as possible.

did they try to do a combo with the jail trail? because now the "limestone" is full of weeds and ailanthus trees.

ya that's exactly what that's supposed to be... i think sandwiching the other way controls that because things get nice and trampled in the middle and there is no encroaching from the outside through the pavement on each side

i suppose there was no ailanthus or knotweed in ancient rome