BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I'm not sure I understand.

You're waiting to go straight, and the driver behind you needs to turn right, so he squeezes around you and makes a right-on-red?

Have you ever been to New York?

If I'm going straight, and r-o-r is permitted, I look behind to see if the driver is signalling a turn. If he is, I move left and let him by. It's no skin off my nose to do somebody a favor.

I'm talking about when the light is green and I'm in the crosswalk, crossing with the light. Some guy zooms up behind me and makes a right just behind me.

I'm following the rules trying to cross the street pushing a stroller, currently with one hand in a cast.

Some guy's crowding a pedestrian, Who has the right of way? I feel I should be given the courtesy of finishing my crossing. Not honked at.

I've experienced it quite often.No problem; I just move over to the curb on my right and let the driver make the right turn on red.

so you're using the crosswalk and someone turns behind you? honking at you is irritating, crossing behind you- well, thats just fine, you're both following the rules. its not like you're suddenly going to jump backwards while walking across the street.

The light is no longer red it's turned green, a pedestrian is in the crosswalk. As a driver what do you do?

The driver has a green light and is not hitting you.

What's the problem??

I also have the green light and I'm walking in the crosswalk. It's beyond courtesy to let the pedestrian finishing crossing, it's the law.

I guess it's just one of the inconsequential costs I pay to share the road with motorists. I'm crossing legally, it takes me five seconds or less to cross. I have to put up with some guy, speeding through the intersection, within feet of me pushing a stroller. It's rude, It's not fine. It's intimating. Things sometimes fall off the stroller, the baby might throw her juice into the road and I pause to get it. That's not following the rules, it's illegal and dangerous. Here again, following my theme in other threads, I find it hard to believe people on this forum think that type of driving is "fine, it's no problem" I see post's on here berating cyclists for similar behavior. If you driving though, it's cool.

I can understand what timito means. Many of the crosswalk lights around here are in time with the traffic light. SO the cross walk turns white then the light turns green and you have folks walking across the intersection while cars are turning.

There is a light in front of the fire house on mt washington that will cycle thru the lights for the cars in both directions then keeps them all red as the walk signal turns white for all directions for about 20 or so seconds. I like how it gives people crossing the road a chance to go without having to rush for people making turns even if those turns are legal or not.

I'm inclined to agree with Tim here, though I'll say that probably most road users (including peds) don't particularly respect the laws around cross walks and crossing the street generally (my own pet peeve is when making a left from Ellworth to Negley--peds will often cross when I have a the left turn green, which leaves the red light at the cross walk still red). I don't say that to point a finger at anyone in particular--it's simply something I've observed over the years.

Does anyone have the law handy? Can a car or bike enter a crosswalk while a pedestrian is in it, albeit out of the way? I'm not doubting it's a law, just curious about the text of it...

I agree with timito, if there is a ped in or entering the crosswalk.. they have right of way. Even if they don't have the signal, if they are there, its is the car (or bikes) responsibility to let them clear the intersection before you can proceed.

I agree that most drivers dont even look for pedestrians before trying to make a pittsburgh left or a whatever right, they are focused on oncoming traffic.

As a pedestrian, I guess it just has to become a survival skill to try to look at all surrounding traffic to try to anticipate what they are going to do. Also, make eye contact with every car attempting to go through the crosswalk if possible.

@timito, I think the law says they have to "yield the right of way" to pedestrians which doesn't mean the pedestrian has to finish crossing, just be out of the way. If cars had to wait for people to clear the crosswalk in Oakland or Downtown, for example, traffic would be worse that it is now.

That said, I think it's impatience while driving and not agression/anger that is is the big problem that both bikes and pedestrians face in dealing with car drivers. It amazes me how upset people get then they are slowed down for, at most, three to five seconds by a walker or a cyclist. "Delay is unacceptable!"

What is the rush people?

I think the lack of proper signage for pedestrians, makes it dangerous for everybody, there's a light like bjanaszek describes at 40th and Butler. I've seen numerous people walk out in front of that arrow, sometimes I'm standing next to them, I cringe and wonder why this intersection doesn't have proper signage. It's really seems to be PennDots ineptitude. It's just scary, I'm sure no motorist wants to hit some seventy year old lady, who can't figure out which light to watch.

For your reading enjoyment

There's more than this (search for crosswalk or pedestrian) but here's the gist:

§ 3112. Traffic-control signals.

(a) General rule.--Whenever traffic is controlled by traffic-control signals exhibiting different colored lights, or colored lighted arrows, successively one at a time or in combination, only the colors green, red and yellow shall be used, except for special pedestrian signals carrying a word legend, and the lights shall indicate and apply to drivers of vehicles and pedestrians as follows:

(1) Green indication.--

(i) Vehicular traffic facing a circular green signal may proceed straight through or turn right or left unless a sign at such place prohibits either such turn except that vehicular traffic, including vehicles turning right or left, shall yield the right-of-way to other vehicles and to pedestrians lawfully within the intersection or an adjacent crosswalk at the time the signal is exhibited.

(ii) Vehicular traffic facing a green arrow signal, shown alone or in combination with another indication, may enter the intersection only to make the movement indicated by the arrow, or such other movement as is permitted by other indications shown at the same time. Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.

(iii) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in section 3113 (relating to pedestrian-control signals), pedestrians facing any green signal may proceed across the roadway within a crosswalk.

(2) Steady yellow indication.--

(i) Vehicular traffic facing a steady yellow signal is thereby warned that the related green indication is being terminated or that a red indication will be exhibited immediately thereafter.

(ii) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in section 3113, pedestrians facing a steady yellow signal are thereby advised that there is insufficient time to cross the roadway before a red indication is shown and no pedestrian shall then start to cross the roadway.

(3) Steady red indication.--

(i) Vehicular traffic facing a steady red signal alone shall stop at a clearly marked stop line, or if none, before entering the crosswalk on the near side of the intersection, or if none, then before entering the intersection and shall remain standing until an indication to proceed is shown except as provided in subparagraph (ii).

(ii) Unless signing is in place prohibiting a turn, vehicular traffic facing a steady

red signal may enter the intersection to turn right, or to turn left from a one-way highway onto a one-way highway after stopping as required by subparagraph (i). Such vehicular traffic shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians lawfully within an adjacent crosswalk and to other traffic lawfully using the intersection.

(iii) Unless otherwise directed by a pedestrian-control signal as provided in section 3113, pedestrians facing a steady red signal alone shall not enter the roadway.

Just seems like many drivers around pittsburgh are in a hurry all the time. Then when a bike is in front of them they become more annoyed. Just seems stupid to me to make these fancy driving maneuvers and take the chance of hitting someone in a cross walk or hitting a bikers while trying to squeeze by them just to get to work a few minutes earlier. I cant tell you how many times I ride down boggs ave on my way home around 5ish. I will be going over 20mph and some douch will always end up riding my ass. Then 3 out of 5 times they will beep or call me a asshole as I make the signaled left hand turn that takes me down to my house. Sure I probably slowed them down a little, but what is wrong with going 22mph while the speed limit is 25? Oh wait they are not happy unless they are going 45. Sorry my bike is just not that fast.

There's also this from Chapter 35

SUBCHAPTER C

RIGHTS AND DUTIES OF PEDESTRIANS

Sec.

3541. Obedience of pedestrians to traffic-control devices and

regulations.

3542. Right-of-way of pedestrians in crosswalks.

3543. Pedestrians crossing at other than crosswalks.

3544. Pedestrians walking along or on highway.

3545. Pedestrians soliciting rides or business.

3546. Driving through or around safety zone.

3547. Right-of-way of pedestrians on sidewalks.

3548. Pedestrians to yield to emergency vehicles.

3549. Blind pedestrians.

3550. Pedestrians under influence of alcohol or controlled

substance.

3551. Compliance with bridge and railroad warning signals.

3552. Penalty for violation of subchapter.

§ 3541. Obedience of pedestrians to traffic-control devices and regulations.

(a) Traffic-control devices.--A pedestrian shall obey the instructions of a police officer or other appropriately attired person authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic.

(b) Traffic and pedestrian-control signals.--Local authorities by ordinance may require pedestrians to obey traffic and pedestrian-control signals as provided in sections 3112 (relating to traffic-control signals) and 3113 (relating to pedestrian-control signals).

§ 3542. Right-of-way of pedestrians in crosswalks.

(a) General rule.--When traffic-control signals are not in place or not in operation, the driver of a vehicle shall yield the right-of-way to a pedestrian crossing the roadway within any marked crosswalk or within any unmarked crosswalk at an intersection.

(b) Exercise of care by pedestrian.--No pedestrian shall suddenly leave a curb or other place of safety and walk or run into the path of a vehicle which is so close as to constitute a hazard.

(c) Limitation on vehicles passing.--Whenever any vehicle is stopped at any crosswalk at an intersection or at any marked crosswalk to permit a pedestrian to cross the roadway, the driver of any other vehicle approaching from the rear shall not overtake and pass the stopped vehicle.

(d) Application of section.--Subsection (a) does not apply under the conditions stated in section 3543(b) (relating to pedestrians crossing at other than crosswalks).

(e) Penalties.--The driver of a vehicle who violates subsection (a) commits a summary offense and shall, upon conviction, be sentenced to pay a fine of $50.

(June 25, 2001, P.L.701, No.68, eff. 120 days; June 26, 2001, P.L.734, No.75, eff. 60 days)

2001 Amendments. Act 75 overlooked the amendment by Act 68, but the amendments do not conflict in substance (except for the amount of the fine, as to which Act 75 has been given effect) and have both been given effect in setting forth the text of section 3542.

Cross References. Section 3542 is referred to in section 1535 of this title.

§ 3543. Pedestrians crossing at other than crosswalks.

(a) General rule.--Every pedestrian crossing a roadway at any point other than within a crosswalk at an intersection or any marked crosswalk shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

(b) At pedestrian tunnel or overhead crossing.--Any pedestrian crossing a roadway at a point where a pedestrian tunnel or overhead pedestrian crossing has been provided shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.

(c) Between controlled intersections in urban district.--Between adjacent intersections in urban districts at which traffic-control signals are in operation pedestrians shall not cross at any place except in a marked crosswalk.

(d) Crossing intersection diagonally.--No pedestrian shall cross a roadway intersection diagonally unless authorized by official traffic-control devices or at the direction of a police officer or other appropriately attired person authorized to direct, control or regulate traffic. When authorized to cross diagonally, pedestrians shall cross only in accordance with the signal pertaining to the crossing movements.

There's a crosswalk that's very well marked at 21st and Smallman, drivers get so impatient there they will throw stuff at you.

Does not surprise me to hear that. Seems to me that many drivers in this city have a huge sense of entitlement. I guess when you own a car you should always come first.

get so impatient there they will throw stuff at you.

Never, ever seen that at 21st and Smallman. What time of day?

I am beginning to understand timito's passionate hate of automobiles.

Ther ehave been similar conversations regarding cyclists new to pittsburgh vs the people that have been cycling for years in pgh traffic.

The less experienced cyclists will talk about how they are called assholes and nearly hit all the confrontations, vs the more experienced cyclist learn how to spot potential problems with motorists ahead of time and either avoid certain roadways and intersections and certain behaviors that can cause thos issues.

Its not that they are "better" cyclists, it more that they just dont want the hassle of dealing with entitled car drivers so they learn how to avoid the confrontations and mixups.

It may be slightly less convenient for a pedestrian to wait before entering the crosswalk, but if it keeps them form getting hit, then I would think that its a trade off I would be willing to make. Not saying that you arent a cautious and courteous pedestrian timito, just referring to general behavior.

@netviln I agree completely--after a while you develop a Pittsburgh road sense. For someone new to town it would be _way_ aggravating.

technically I am still new in town(been here just over a year now).

Can someone give me any tips on how to deal with someone riding my ass like I said in my earlier post? The ones that beep and call me names are not really what im concerned about. They are just annoying but I can laugh at them too. The ones that really get to me are the ones that get way too close or try to push you off the road. How is one to deal with those drivers?

Blasting through a crosswalk behind a pedestrian so close as to be a threat certainly should be illegal. I'd call it "reckless endangerment" or even "disorderly conduct" except that latter doesn't protect ordinary citizens...

But yielding to pedestrians doesn't mean that motorists have to wait until the pedestrian has stepped out of the crosswalk onto the the curb. Maybe some states have different laws. I think that's over the top. It's not impossible for motorists to drive near pedestrians without hitting them or threatening.

This sort of thing doesn't happen as much our west in my experience.

Can someone give me any tips on how to deal with someone riding my ass like I said in my earlier post? The ones that beep and call me names are not really what im concerned about. They are just annoying but I can laugh at them too. The ones that really get to me are the ones that get way too close or try to push you off the road. How is one to deal with those drivers?

one thing i do that works especially well on roads that are wide enough for cars to pass you, but narrow enough that it's never comfortable, is to give myself a few extra 3-4 feet to the curb, then when they go to pass, drift a bit back toward it. this forces them to pass wide, then you can use the extra room you created to keep them as far away from you as they should be.

another thing i've noticed that i do more as i bike more: i just go a lot faster than most of the other cyclists out there. there are certain intersections (e.g. liberty by the bloomfield bridge) that others hate but i never have a problem with, because i just gun through it before a car has a chance to bother me. also consider that most of the time i'm on the bike is for exercise and fun.

@Willie - I just do something like the official "STOP" gesture.. left hand down with open palm, kinda like a back off.. If the is room for me not to be squeezed I will try to let them by. Some drivers dont think anything is good enough to warrant a bike on the road tho so there is no winning those fights, just dont take it personally and remember, you are on a bike and as the website says, "having way more fun than they are"

@Lyle - I didnt mean "completely cleared" the intersection, but rather cleared out of the way enough to safely proceed.

I agree that passing rediculously close, especially when you can clearly see a stroller there is completely unsafe and unwarranted in any situation. I would recommend getting there tag number if possible and calling the police.

Thanks guys. I have been riding with the "take the lane" attitude since moving to Pittsburgh and I can tell you it really does work. I ride in the center of my side of the road when riding. Forcing cars to have to wait for a clearing and to have to give me enough room. Someone I know put it to me in a way that makes alot of sense to me. They told me that when you push to the right to let a car pass you are encouraging them to pass unsafely. Even more if a car is in the oncoming lane because at that moment there are 3 vehicles using a road only designed for 2 to pass safely. It works great for me 99% of the time but there's always that jerk that thinks bikes shouldn't be on the road and decides to make a unsafe pass. You have to keep in mind that this always happens on boggs ave between the hours of 4 and 6 PM. Its a narrow road with many cars parked on it and a popular route with impatient folks on there way home from work. I know its not right but I might just start taking the side walk for the half mile stretch I ride on boggs to get to my house.

been riding with the "take the lane" attitude since moving to Pittsburgh

@Willie I kind of play both sides of that. Sometimes I take the whole lane and hold it if that's what it will take for me to be safe, other times I try to stay out of the way.

One thing I have found can help--at least some times-- is to let the driver behind know that *you know* they are there. Look back, wave them around if it's safe to pass (they'll usually pass wider if you wave them around) or hold up hand if it's not in a "wait just a second" kind of way.

If they are all fired up to get around me I try to find a way to make it easier for them to do so. If they see you doing that, they'll sometimes lighten up a bit. It's a subtle thing--I'm not saying you should pull over immediately etc..just seem attentive. The other thing I do for cars that do wait behind me for a bit is to wave as they pass...just a little wave. A "Hey, thanks for taking a couple of extra seconds out of your day, I appreciate it" wave.

And if they are just being jerks? Ignore.

A little OT: I was delayed by a LOT of cars on my commute home yesterday and I didn't honk at any of them. I wound up passing about 40, I guess. I didn't endanger any of them, though I did have to cross the center line a few times because they were too far to the left, hogging the lane, and not driving as far to the right as practicable. I wonder, if there were about 50 cyclists there, if we could have demanded that they be cited for not keeping to the right to allow faster-moving traffic to pass.

This behavior is even worse in NYC and other east coast cities

Yes courtesy extends both ways for sure, I'm constantly waving drivers through the intersection, before I attempt my legal crossing, I may have the right of way but they have the momentum, so I let them keep rolling, wave them through, sometimes if they're not too busy on the phone they wave back. If someone actually let's me cross at the crosswalk ( on average 1 out of 10 drivers will stop at a marked crosswalk if a pedestrian is waiting to cross. I always give them a big thank you, smile and wave, their attention is appreciated and deserves recognition.

21st and Smallman. It's the middle of the day, I go out of my way to use this crosswalk. I look left, I look right, there's a car over a block away. I look left again, it's clear so I begin crossing. The guy that was a block and a half away, we'll he's speeding. He gets up to the crosswalk and I'm not quite through his lane. He's mad I'm in the crosswalk because he's driving he's car. It would almost seem he speed up to unload his trash and yell at me. It's happened more then once.

Point to the yield sign that is there. Pretty sure there is one of those stupid yield signs there that no one reads. We had some of those outside our office but they ended up getting crushed and they are gone now.

The sign between Hillman Library and Schenley Plaza vanished this summer. I emailed 311 explaining cars failed to yield and the sign did help a little bit. They replaced the sign less than a week later, then a few weeks after that, repainted the crosswalk to be more visible.

It's funny to see those yield signs rsprake mentions, all crushed and run over. Probably dragged under a car for ten blocks, then set back up. I've contacted Lawrenceville United about the lack of pedestrian signage on Butler. They seemed confused by the idea that people walk, but they did install a croswalk at 38th, I like to think I helped get it out there, so I'm not just sitting around bitching all the time, although I do bitch alot. @rsprake I do point to those signs, sometimes I wildly gesticulate. People look and seem to be saying, I see it, what's it mean, can't you see I'm on the phone.

Heh. That's usually the case with me too. I just stare down the cars until I am across so they see my face.