BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Bad weather certainly never stopped anyone from driving like an asshole and causing accidents like these. There was a huge pileup near New Orleans a week or two ago that was blamed on the fog.

my 7 day forecast says that people will continue to drive like assholes

my seven day forecast says that people will continue to drive like assholes

You misspelled "decade".

I was on 80/90 last night, albeit in Ohio and not PA. There weren't very many people driving too aggressively for conditions. What there were A LOT of however, were people that were going as slow as 20mph when they should have pulled off at a reststop to wait out the storm. In most cases, a cluster of cars stuck behind someone going unreasonably slow precedes a pile up. So, personally, I think that people who over-react to conditions when they don't feel comfortable driving are just as dangerous (if not more so) as inappropriate driving for conditions.

^^ Agreed.

Also, if you can be ticketed for having tread too low, why can't you be ticketed for having the wrong tires mounted to your car? All-season tires are truthfully no-season tires...

Quebec has wised up and made winter tires are mandatory from mid-December through mid-March, the same applies to many parts of Europe.

The problem with tire mandates is that *good* all season tires can exceed the performance of *poor* snow tires. I would take Michelin all seasons on my cars before some generic snow tire any day.

Snow tires also do not help bad drivers. They will still drive too slow or too fast. I would rather see training. Software solutions are always better than hardware.

One thing about winter here that for some reason never ceases to amaze me is the people who complain about the road conditions in the winter. Not the general "ugh, a foot of snow just fell and I was supposed to do something awesome but can't get my car out" kind of complaining, but the "I saw a snowflake on the road - what is wrong with this town?!?!"

It's winter. In Pittsburgh. Snow, ice, rain, sleet, fog, and sometimes all of the above, happen here between October and April. Sometimes, plows aren't instant, sometimes salt is ineffective. I do complain on occasion that the unpaved alley behind a dead-end street one block away from me is plowed and salted before my (through) street, but I never expect Arizona roads in a Pittsburgh winter.

I expect people to drive worse in worse weather, but I also expect them to be able to predict that, just like every year before it, this one will have a winter. It's like that one blindingly sunny day we have every August erases memories in the general population of what temperate climate living is like.

But I will say this, at the risk of sounding like I'm defending idiot drivers - if you're on a road trip, unless you're listening to the road advisory AM station, white-outs can be sudden enough to totally wreck your day, before you even have time to get to a rest stop. I was headed home once from Toronto, and just across the border was a white-out. They'd closed the road, but they hadn't closed it at the border, so I got on when it was just snowy but ok, and quickly got stuck in total white-out (traffic and weather when I'd left had said it was fine, road was clear). Couldn't see to take an exit. I'd have been happy to stop at a rest stop, but I couldn't see any. I now plan on getting stuck up there if I go in the winter, and programmed in the appropriate highway advisory hotlines into my cell phone to call before I leave AND before I cross the border.

Not saying a 45 vehicle pile-up isn't due to crap drivers (that one sounds suspicious, I agree). Just that you can be attentive, prepared, able, trying to drive as safely as possible, and still run into problems (and objects) on the road. Or get run into.

and just so I'm not accused of planning on being stuck due to poor decision making - I also avoid driving in the snow up there ("stuck" is at my sister's house, not on the side of the road). The preparations I make are for when clear skies and clear roads are predicted for the whole day, it's sunny, everyone thinks it's fine, and they're all wrong.

Keep in mind that this may sometimes be more of an issue of driver education and experience, as opposed to people being willfully ignorant/reckless. Bad driving is still bad driving, but some bad drivers are still good people who would like to be good drivers and just don't know how to become them.

Case in point: me. I learned to drive in Tennessee and needed essentially zero knowledge of winter weather driving to get my license there, and that same license is perfectly valid here, although a set of skills is necessary here that was not necessary there. This winter is going to be interesting for me. I know how to drive in winter weather in theory, but I'm not sure anyone is particularly good at it until they've done it for a while, meaning there are always going to be a few of us on the road who aren't inherently idiots but who haven't yet gotten the hang of this whole winter thing despite otherwise being responsible adults with reasonable driving habits. So if you see one of those people going 20 MPH, conditions may have developed unexpectedly and they may have no other accessible knowledge to handle those conditions (this was me on US-19 through West Virginia last night, but people with more northernly plates were doing it too, so I hoped I wasn't being unbearably stupid). Maybe there's some way to fix this experience gap, but I don't know what it is.

But that's what my bike is for, so don't worry - you won't have to share the road with me as a driver too often this winter

Also, I hadn't really realized that I might need winter tires. Yikes. I should probably look into that, but the expense probably means that I just won't drive my car in bad weather since I only drive it maybe once a month anyway. Meh.

"All-season tires are truthfully no-season tires..."

Although, in fairness, many all seasons handle wonderfully in the snow for the first season. Once the top tread wears down from a year of use however, fa-get-aboutit. It just makes sense to throw on a pair of winter specific tires but that also assumes that you have somewhere to store your other-three-season tires. I'm living in a small apt. at the moment, but I do keep a set of chains in the trunk in case it gets really bad.

@pearmask, the key is to be aware of your ability. I lived in Seattle for a while, where they only get, at best, a week of snow in a year. What cracked me up was that all of the cars that ended up in ditches had AWD. Best to be cautious and not too sure of yourself. I was married at the time, and my ex (born and raised in Phoenix, AZ) made me drive her to and from work on those days. As far as putting theory to practice, go find an empty parking lot and force a few donuts until you get used to how your car handles in a slide, that's how we all learned.

Another tip is to weave a little bit when climbing a hill in a car and to avoid the iced over ruts. I used to live on a street (again, in Seattle where no one knew what they were doing) and there would be at least ten people an hour who couldn't make it up the hill and had to reverse and find another route; after a quick lesson, my ex never had that problem.

As far as the 20mph issue, they had plenty of opportunities to pull off... In similar storms in the past, those particular drivers did pull off and wait it out. I think a lot of holiday travelers waited until the last minute and felt the need to push forward despite the weather conditions and their comfort level. On the plus side though, traffic was being much more mindful than usual last night. You usually see a couple of idiots who swerve back and forth and apply the brakes a lot, but last night they were surprisingly patient.

Either way, I understand that people get caught up in it. My mom would have been one of the 20mph people. LOL I was just trying to point out to the OP that not driving for conditions isn't the only factor at play.

pearmask - there have been three pieces of easily remembered winter driving advice that I have found useful and have helped me in Pgh winters.

1. You can always stay home / not drive (you seem to have figured that one out, it's the toughest one to accept for some).

2. AWD, snow tires, chains, none of this helps you stop once you're going. It just helps you go. (I always figure if I can't go without them, I shouldn't, see #1).

3. If you get into a skid, point your wheels in the direction you want to go. So when you do regain traction, you will head where you want. For some reason I think slamming on the breaks will make things worse, but I don't know why I believe that and couldn't defend the idea if asked.

Welcome to Pittsburgh! (If they send out a frost bite warning, heed it.)

AWD is not often needed...

Think about it, vehicles have almost always has the ability to stop all 4 wheels and always have trouble stopping. If one cannot get moving why would they consider it as they will be forced to stop in the same situations.

This does not grasp all circumstances but living in a hilly part of PA, and Erie for a few years, I did just fine with FWD and RWD. (I much preferred RWD, but lets not get started on that)

You do not want to skid because a skid is a loss of control.

As for tires, people do not wanna spend the money on the tires they need. Again, *good* all season tires are not shot after one winter, I had exceptional results with multiple sets of Michelins. When I was working in a garage during college the same results were shared by customers and proven at various track days I was able to attend.

i grew up in buffalo and literally learned how to drive on snow and ice (my birthday is in january, and that's also when i took driver ed).

in my opinion, the most important things to keep in mind when driving in winter are: don't stop fast, don't start fast, and don't turn fast. virtually none of the snow, even in buffalo, is going to change your direction for you. if you keep in mind that the slick roads just want you to maintain your momentum, you will perhaps be dutiful in keeping your momentum in check for yourself, and avoid situations that require sudden changes in momentum.

of course, this is only part of the story in pittsburgh. the hills, they change things. i am guilty of once sliding down a steep residential street that had iced over completely. part of the problem was that the side i went up was fine, so i had no expectation of it being icy on the other side. still, i don't go that way if the weather dictates it.

now, i've probably ranted about this before, but it's been getting my goat a bit lately, so here it is again. i am sick of hearing about black ice. i have been driving for 15 winters now and it has never come as a shock to me that the roads are icy. ice is not some mystical thing that magically appears just to give you an excuse for driving like a dumbass. or disappears, perhaps?

"*good* all season tires are not shot after one winter"

I'll give you that, but you often won't know if your tires are "good" until you try to use them in that second season. I swear by the Bridgestone's that I used to have on my car while my current Conti's (which are rated higher at tirerack) suck by comparison... So, as with all things, YMMV.

My take on AWD, is that it will help you to prevent a skid. I disagree that they don't help you to stop, ejwme, as they do help you to gain traction and steer which may allow you a better opportunity to stop. Of course, if all four wheels are on ice, you're SOL.

Personally, I'd rather have FWD with a limited-slip differential than *most* AWD systems on the market, as I find AWD can be a bit fidgety ( a characteristic, which may, in of itself cause a loss of control).

don't stop fast, don't start fast, and don't turn fast

Don't lock up your wheels either, if your car doesn't have anti lock brakes this is how you're most likely going to end up doing a 180 in traffic.

The hills do indeed change things, that and the cobble streets.

For some reason I think slamming on the breaks will make things worse, but I don't know why I believe that and couldn't defend the idea if asked.

physics lesson time!

there are two major (related) reasons why slamming on your brakes is a bad idea (though neither counts if you've got anti-lock brakes).

reason 1: the coefficient of sliding friction is very nearly always less than the coefficient of static friction. that is, once something is sliding, it takes less force to keep it sliding than it takes to make it slide in the first place. if your wheels are turning, they are not sliding (hopefully!), and so will have better friction (stopping power) so long as they don't start sliding.

reason b: tires slide sideways just as well as they slide forward, and tires moving sideways provide no control of the direction of your vehicle. so, once you slam on the brakes, your tires are just as likely to move sideways as forward, and your car might just magically start turning. you will likely have witnessed this if you've ever driven on sheer ice: very often your car starts to turn as it skids. keeping the (front) wheels rolling decreases the likelihood and amount that the car will turn during a skid.

The reason I say AWD doesn't help you stop is because most cars have brakes on all four wheels. If you're trying to stop, you're not engaging the drive train, you're braking. Whether the drive train is connected to two or four wheels is irrelevant if you're not pushing the gas pedal. Since most cars have brakes on all four wheels, AWD and FWD and RWD all react to stopping on snow/ice as well as their tires and traction allow. I could be wrong about any or all of it, but that's what makes sense to me. If you're trying to use the drive train to keep yourself going UP a hill forwards, I could see AWD helping, definitely. But that's going, not stopping. RWD... my father has strong opinions on that which I have never understood. I figure I won't have an opinion about a drive train system I've never had to drive.

I think the AWD being fidgety might be due to many of them being normally 2WD except when those 2 don't work then it transfers to the other 2, which may or may not work - sometimes. I think that's really called 4WD. AWD is really all wheels are drive wheels, all the time. And then some cars have "anti-skid" "features" which... lord knows what that is.

Do they make AWD bikes/trikes? My head hurts contemplating what that would involve, but it must exist out there.

As for tires, people do not wanna spend the money on the tires they need. Again, *good* all season tires are not shot after one winter, I had exceptional results with multiple sets of Michelins. When I was working in a garage during college the same results were shared by customers and proven at various track days I was able to attend.

All season tires are made to be the jack of all trades (duh) and for that reason can't be molded from the MUCH softer rubber needed to remain supple in the winter. Summer tires and all seasons essentially become giant hockey pucks in the winter. You can leave huge tread voids, sipe the crap out of it, etc...and it still won't perform near what even the cheapest winter tire will.

It's also worth noting that tire companies are huge conglomerates now, and while the cheaper tire models are of dated tread patterns, they do use better compounds. Unless you're getting tires from tire startups in China (which are really only available on eBay), you're pretty safe with any winter tire you pickup at a tire store. Just don't go drive like a madman if the temps get over 40 degrees, and they should last a couple seasons.

2. AWD, snow tires, chains, none of this helps you stop once you're going. It just helps you go. (I always figure if I can't go without them, I shouldn't, see #1).

This is mostly incorrect. AWD won't help you stop/turn, the rest of it helps. A LOT.

Exhibit A: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GlYEMH10Z4s

" If you're trying to stop, you're not engaging the drive train, you're braking."

The absolute worst thing you can do on a slick road is apply the brakes in order to stop. This is why even automatic transmissions will still allow you to select a low gear, usually 1, 2, and 3. By down shifting, you "engine brake" which is much safer and more effective. We are essentially talking about two different things, I'm talking about braking in order to slow down and regain control of the vehicle while you are talking about braking as if you are coming to a complete stop. On bad roads, the best thing to do is to come to a stop as slow as possible... and that is where your drivetrain and momentum (preferably forward and not sideways) help. But to bring the thread round full circle, if you are driving too fast (limited vision ahead due to blowing snow, fog, etc.) or you are too close behind the person in front of you, then you are not driving for conditions since you have lost the ability to gradually slow down to a stop.

Think of it this way, engine braking is safer than using your brakes because you gradually slow down the wheel instead of stopping rotation instantaneously (which would cause you to drift sideways or go into a spin, as mentioned above). In an AWD vehicle, you have four different wheels which will work with the engine to slow you down. In a two wheel drive vehicle, you only have two* wheels. If they are both spinning on you, you've lost the ability to engine brake.

*Realistically, due to the design of most (i.e. non limited slip) transmissions, a two wheel drive car is no better than one wheel drive. The reason is due to the need to allow one wheel to spin faster than another when a car goes into a corner. The design which works well for corners has the opposite effect on ice in that the engine will continue to put all of it's power into the wheel/tire that has already lost traction. Both AWD and limited-slip differentials get around this problem by redirecting the engine's power to the wheels that still have traction (Or, in the case of 4WD, all four of your wheels were already turning to begin with).

If your wheels stop instantaneously you're applying the brake too hard and need to learn how to modulate.

Engine braking is not guaranteed to prevent a skid, and if it does you have to take the somewhat counter-intuitive step of pressing the gas pedal (or shifting to neutral or depressing the clutch).

In truth, either method works but I think you have more control with the brakes. I tend to use engine braking to maintain speed and the brakes to slow down.

And I definitely agree with what rice rocket said - good snow tires provide you with more traction which *will* help you slow down and corner. FWIW, I've driven RWD cars my whole life (except for the Mini which was FWD) and people put entirely too much stock in the drivetrain - tires make a much bigger difference.

My $0.02

I have driven FWD, RWD, AWD, 4WD, and 6x6’s (tri-axle dump with all three axles powered). The best way to slow down is to simply lift off of the gas while not in an overdrive gear (most newer automatic transmissions have a D and a ‘D-inside an O’ or use a button on the shifter to turn off overdrive). IMHO you never downshift to slow your speed because it is the same as slamming on the brakes if you don’t do it just right and this will cause you to spin. Lower gears are great, but you should have been in it already.

If this doesn’t slow you down fast enough you will need to use your brakes. Don’t ‘hit’ the brake, ‘squeeze’ the brake. Putting the transmission into Neutral, or pressing in the clutch will allow the vehicle to track straighter, but since most cars now come with antilock brakes this is no longer necessary. If you do put the tranny in neutral, make sure that you are prepared to put it back into a forward gear quickly, because sometimes the best way to get out of a spin is with the gas pedal – not the brake pedal. And as everyone else has stated, do everything slowly and practice in an empty parking lot first.

" It does you have to take the somewhat counter-intuitive step of pressing the gas pedal "

"IMHO you never downshift to slow your speed because it is the same as slamming on the brakes if you don’t do it just right and this will cause you to spin."

I'm in total agreement with both of you. I wasn't really advocating driving like that, especially in light of modern anti-lock brake systems which do the same thing. I should have clarified that. I was just trying to point out that with today's modern electronic controlled AWS systems, that is the sort of thing at play behind the scenes. My main point was simply that the drive train does play a role in braking.

"I have driven 6x6"

Ok, you win.

marko 82 said it all as a bus driver i couldent of said it any better myself

This thread really hurts my head.

I don't know, Orion, I think I would rather have $80 snow tires than $300 all-seasons.

Almost every winter I've ever driven, I've driven lowered 2wd cars with LSDs and snow tires and I have only got stuck once (doing something I should have been doing)--some of those cars had about 2" between the lowest parts of the chassis and the ground. Also, I used to have a job that required me to get there everyday no matter what*.

For the winters we have around here, anyone (who doesn't live in the sticks) and says they need AWD/4WD probably would be much better off with a little training and some good tires.

I think the general population doesn't put nearly enough value on the importance of quality tires (or brakes, but that's another topic). After all, tires are the only thing connect you and your car to the road.

Also, the min depth of 3/32" for tire depth is absolutely ridiculous.

*For some reason malls feel the need to be open even during a blizzard.

Between those choices of tires (80 v 300) the snows might be better, but the A/S tires would not be that great either. The problem, on average, with the cheap set of A/S tires is that they are terrible in the rain too. Comfort aside, they are poor tires all the time.

People do not place the proper value on tires period. Pricing what is currently on my wife's car and the cheapest snow tires we are currently better off with the A/S tires (except getting the cheapest tires studded). My track time at a Goodyear facility confirmed this opinion years ago. This goes out the window when the driver is willing to pay for *good* snow tires (newer Blizzaks, X-Ice, and a few others), but the cheaper ones are a gamble. To add, not all A/S tires are decent a year later, 2 year later, etc.

The one thing ignored, since we are on topic, is the net cost and impact. If cheap tires cost $300 a set and good ones cost $600 a set you will often get the same life out of the $600 set and for the most part superior traction, even below 6/32 on the good tires. People do not look at the price per mile, consider the number of tires they would be using, and really are not even engaged in the selection of tires.

The other part, between snows and A/S, is the compound. They are not just generically softer (some are). Good A/S tires are made of good compounds that are good year round. There is better, but your bargain bin snows are not likely the better tire. The compounds matter. Again, confirmed in some testing I participated in at a Goodyear facility and at another location with a few different representatives.

People just can't drive and do not know what they do now know, they refuse to obtain any form of training because they have some sort of ego, or they are just cheap. Most are both.

Ideally people would still have 2 sets of tires, *good* all seasons, *good* snow tires on steel rims to cut their costs, and a class here http://www.beaverun.com/skills_winter_driving_skills.php

It won't happen as people don't take driving a massive hunk of steel seriously. Good snow tires still have a fair amount of tread life too. If someone had around a grand to spend they could purchase most average cars, a decent set of each type of tire, wheels for the snows, and a class and be well off for many years to come.

FWIW, between 5 cars since 2001 I have never been stuck either. Lowered cars, cars with A/S tires and cars with the best snow tires out there. I have however been stranded. 30" of snow at once came down when I was in college.

And Nick, the biggest difference between your slammed cars and the average driver is not the car, it is you. Software trumps hardware in this instance.

"It won't happen as people don't take driving a massive hunk of steel seriously."

Entire thread summarized here.

The problem is, lots of times, and maybe it's just me, but I don't skid until I try to slow down, typically via applying the brakes (my usual way of slowing down, engine braking I toy with sometimes but I don't like to disturb people with the noise - I sound like a friggin tractor trailor). Maybe I'm one of those people inappropriately going 20 to avoid skidding in a turn or whatever, but my tendency, when I skid, is not to apply the gas (and engage AWD if I have it). My tendency is to attempt to achieve more control and a slower speed (or stopped and out of the way of "traffic"). I am not sure I could seperate the idea of having more control from going slower. Maybe that makes me a lousy driver, I'm ok with that. From the discussion above, it sounds like if AWD ever helps, it only helps if the driver knows precisely what to do. That's not going to happen in new, southern, or inattentive drivers. It'll probably never happen in me, I'm too chicken to gain the experience. Donuts in a parking lot strike me as both terrifying and a waste of gas.

Rarely I skid going up a hill, at which point I figure I shouldn't be out in it anyway.

As for jobs that require one to navigate un-navigable streets... The plow guys, emergency vehicles, maybe the odd doctor. Maybe the mall was an emergency shelter or something. I can't think anybody would deem sales during a blizzard (to snowbound customers) would be worth employee lives. But I'm a lousy capitalist.

So, I guess I didn't HAVE to go, but for me, it was a risk I took and would probably take again. It wasn't as much sales as huge fines--I don't think we netted anything those days. Even zero in sales is better than a loss, plus dealing with the ugly politics of a mall.

Also, the owners were the only ones who went in (by choice of avoiding fines). I would NEVER require an employee to do anything that they were not comfortable with.

With that said, I feel that with my skill set as a driver, combined with the reduced amount of cars on the road during severe weather, it was safer than driving with unreduced traffic with an inch or two of snow on the road.

If you think a few ounces of fuel isn't worth learning how to properly control a vehicle, you should probably reevaluate what you do use fuel for.

Nick - that's why I typically stay home in crap weather.

They fine you for not opening in a blizzard? Sounds like one mean guy's idea of some easy money. Mall politics... sounds like to painful worlds collided to create hell.

Like HiddenVariable, I grew up in the Buffalo area, and drove six full snow seasons there before moving here, and visited annually another 25 winters. Actual real snow tires were a given; everyone owned 7 rims per car: 4 with summer tires, 2 with snows, 1 spare. (or if you made do with 6, you just left an off-season tire in the back for the spare)

Bicycling (and for that matter, unicycling) in the snow was good practice for driving in snow. I learned, always the hard way, what the snow felt like under my tire/s, and correspondingly learned how to determine the type of snow I was on just by looking at it.

To this day, I have never put a car in the ditch. I prefer RWD, manual shift, and limited slip differential, only because that's what I'm most familiar with when navigating snow.

The best choice, of course, is knowing when to stay home, or to hole up somewhere if already out. Even if you can drive in snow, you have no control over who else is out there with you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhVGeIgLdlI&feature=youtu.be

@ejmwe and Stu -- you both brought up a great point that today many people tend to never think of. STAY OFF THE ROADS AND DON'T TRY TO GO ANYWHERE!!

I guess many people have becomed so divorced from the natural word in their daily lives that they no longer know and understand what the forces of nature can be like.

They seem to believe that they can drive through that 2 foot wall of flash flood water surging over the roadway, or in that whiteout, or toward that blackish green cloud and nothing will happen to them because, well -- it won't happen them, what they have to do is just SOOO important that they can't shouldn't be kept from doing it -- who knows.

There are simply times that ignoring natural forces is life-threatening and you have to accept that you can't do what you want.

As far as jobs that require you to come to work regardless of the weather. I work in healthcare and at every hospital I have ever worked for calling off or being late because of weather is greatly frowned on. In fact 2 years ago when we had the back to back snow storm in February I was disciplined for arriving to work 2hrs late. The pressure to get to work by employers in a blizzard is real.

@mr. marv -- Good point. I was thinking more in terms of the mall/ordinary commercial setting like Nick mentioned as fas as business situations go. Also the individual personal decisions that really don't matter -- have to get the the store, get the kids to soccer practice kind of thing.

Admittedly health care is different and much tougher to deal with in this situation. Sick people need care no matter what the weather is. It's sort one aspect of the natural realm in conflict with another. There is no good answer to this, and the one you describe is probably about the best you can come up with.

OT as a personal aside. This is my chance to mention this. I remember you posting elsewhere (I think it was the HMB bra display) that you worked in the cancer ward. It takes a really special person to do that. I could not. God bless you for being able to. I'm sure at least most of your patients appreciate what you do for them no matter what their ultimate outcome is.

Let me clarify that situation a bit more:

Business was very rough that time of that particular year. Fines could easily make the difference between making payroll and not.

Additionally, pissing off your landlord in a setting like that could mean the forced closure of the business, resulting in tens of thousands of dollars in loses and possibly bankruptcy and defaulting on fairly large amount of personally secured debts.

I know a person's financial well being may not be as important as their health, but it certainly is important enough to take (relatively small) risks over.

I don't know what your situation is, but I have a feeling you aren't in a place to judge the importance of me getting where where I need to be.

Also, I am again going to bring up the point that a trained driver, in a properly prepared vehicle, driving though weather like we had two years ago, is probably much safer and less likely of being involved in a crash than the average driver on the average day.

I have a FWD with snow tires. I haven't had a single day in Pittsburgh (including snowmageddon) where I couldn't drive at least on main roads. I've never felt in much danger, except for the occasional other driver doing something really dumb.

Where I grew up in semi-rural Alaska, our neighborhood would sometimes get snowed in with 6' drifts and we'd be stuck at home until the graders came and cleared them out. But even up there, we got around fine with both FWD and RWD cars and crappy studded tires.

The main thing is to go a little slower and maintain a bigger buffer to the vehicle in front of you. It drives me nuts when it starts snowing and everyone on the highway starts driving 25 mph but bumper-to-bumper.

@ cdavey OT. Thank you. I love working in oncology, the job can be rewarding and emotionally draining. When I was posting about the bras on HMB it was an exceptionally emotional week and it flowed over into the tread, I really love my work and I am often overly sensitive about the subject of cancer. I still owe Mick an apology for being so passionate about the bras.

"I don't know what your situation is, but I have a feeling you aren't in a place to judge..."

I know I've been guilty of it. I think a lot of us on this Board are. It's worth bearing "the other guy" in mind. None of us know what's in someone else's head or heart. None of us knows what someone else's motivations are.

@rice rocket -- softness of compound is very important for ice tire (if spikes are not allowed and spikes suck on hard surface like concrete). For snow tire the depth of the threads is much more important. Since we have mix of snow and ice usage of soft compound and deep threads makes sense. But riding on concrete/asphalt eats thread fast.

I usually have chains in my trunk but chains suck on concrete/asphalt. Ice or compacted snow are the only environment where chains give an advantage. I always have problem to get to my concrete driveway (18%) if chains are on.

@Marvelous I still owe Mick an apology for being so passionate about the bras.

Absolutely no apologies necessary, Mr Marv. You made it clear where your emotion was coming from.

@ Mick thanks for understanding