BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Being reported as a hit-n-run.

Supposed to be a man riding a yellow bicycle. If you are reading this or know who this is, please contact the police. You are not helping... and given the partial description the police must have you may well get caught anyway.

Addressing the cyclist if you're a message board reader: Even if you're not caught by authorities, you're already caught. More than anything else in this life, you have to live with yourself. Judging by the choice you made today, if you don't turn yourself in and make full restitution, you're going to have a rough go of that. Maybe you're already feeling guilty. Or maybe you've rationalized some BS about how it's the pedestrian's fault. The thing is, it doesn't matter whether you lie to yourself, deep down you'll still know you were in the wrong. And vacating the scene rather than rendering aid... there isn't even a lie you can tell yourself there. You're on track for a long sentence of well deserved self hatred. Conversely, jumping those tracks, doing the right thing, even when it's hard and seems entail nothing but trouble... in fact, especially when it's like that... that's how you really make a positive change in your life. So turn yourself in, and do it now. The longer you wait the harder it is and the less peace you'll get (or deserve).

I own a yellow bike, I commute downtown, I obey traffic laws, and I am an advocate for safe streets. The collision between these two people and the decision of the male to flee the scene is inexcusable. The progression toward safer streets involves educating motorists, as much as educating bicyclists. I guarantee that the overwhelming majority of people that read and comment on this message board are proponents of safe cycling/walking/driving. WE are the bikers, pedestrians, and motorists that care. Let’s continue to actively advocate for safe streets by setting a good example through OUR actions. If you see a person doing something unsafe say something to them. On another note, does the fact that this received immediate news attention, while Mjai’s hit-and-run to this day has received no coverage, aside from the information on this message board, seem like unequal reporting?

@brad, I don't think so. A cyclist injuring a pedestrian badly enough to send them to the hospital, and then riding away, is unusual. A motorist hitting a cyclist, not so much. News coverage tends to focus on unusual events.

The report is very short on detail. Maybe best to wait a bit to understand what happened. It'd help to have a corroborated description of the incident, nature of the injuries and details of events that unfolded shortly after the incident. I fear it isn't the case but it'd be interesting to know details like: "was the cyclist stopped from treating the injured person and chased from the scene by an angry mob?" I hope all involved are OK. My experience being tackled off my bike by a pedestrian on Penn Ave involved: - Police insisting the incident didn't justify a report - Three months of pain recovering from injured ribs - No media coverage

Just as I think it's more likely that a cyclist got hit by a car, instead of deciding to nap in the middle of the road, when an ambulance is called at 1:30 am for a cyclist on Morningside Avenue, I also think it's more likely that a cyclist hit a pedestrian and then rode away than, say, was jumped by a pedestrian and knocked them down while escaping. But of course there's more to the story than we know, and unlikely things happen all the time. The pleas from me and others were written assuming things were as they appeared to be. If this turns out to be, say, a "Premium Rush" sort of situation all bets are off.

I don't read into it. For all we know, the cyclist did stop and the person injured was initially OK. If no name/info was exchanged, it would still be considered a "hit and run" as I understand it... even without a dramatic escape. There's just too little info to really comment on this, aside from noting that car-bicycles hit-and-runs have had even less info available and didn't receive the same news coverage.

I wonder if the cyclist was also hurt? This sounds weird.

We should be calling it a 'collision' not an 'accident', until we know otherwise. Cycling advocates have been pushing that terminology for car vs bike / pedestrian collisions. Let's do the same.

pgh "news" reporting: anything vs bike = harmless accident bike vs anything = raging homicidal maniacs.

True, but certainly not limited to pgh. I'm not going to make any excuses for the cyclist - if you hit someone you should stick around and make sure they're OK. Sure it's possible this is some technicality like "failure to provide information" or the ped claimed to be fine and called an ambulance later, but probably not.

pbeaves wrote:pgh “news” reporting: anything vs bike = harmless accident bike vs anything = raging homicidal maniacs.

Seems everyone attacked the cyclist on this board before knowing what happened as well, so I guess the news is about the same as here.

I didn't see anything suggesting "raging homicidal maniac" in KDKA's report linked at the top of this thread. It seemed very dry and dispassionate. (I'm just talking about the reporting, not the comments.) Seems like they're just relaying an equally nonjudgmental police report.

i'm not attacking anyone, just commenting on how the media portraits events.

You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too. It happens all the time. The cyclist may have even been injured or had a concussion, or otherwise not realized the person was injured. Not to be a ped-hater but as many idiots as I've dodged while riding my bike, I wouldn't doubt it for a second, in which case, maybe this pedestrian will have learned a valuable lesson about right-of-way. Namely, that right-of-way bullshit is small compensation when you're taking an ambulance ride. I hope they're both alright.

Pedestrians shouldn't be run down by cars or cyclists even if they act stupidly. And if there is an accident, the driver or cyclist should stick around and render aid. Period. Also I don't see how the news coverage of this hopefully minor accident has been out of line.

Two days and change since this happened. Does anyone have any, y'know, *facts* about what occurred?

jonawebb wrote:Pedestrians shouldn’t be run down by cars or cyclists even if they act stupidly.

Do you have power to change laws of physics? Just an example -- stepping down from sidewalk in front of a bus going 35 mph -- how it's possible to avoid running down a pedestrian?

He's right, no one SHOULD ever be run down; that's why they call them 'accidents'. But if someone has a concussion such as this cyclist may have for all we know, he/she could do anything unreasonable, including leaving the scene. People do funny things when they're hurt, especially if it's a head injury. And a lot of people are quick to judge, as we've seen in numerous discussions on this board. Unfortunately that's not accidental behavior, just self-righteousness.

One thing that sucks about being the cyclist in this scenario, is that if they were involved in a collision with a pedestrian and the pedestrian goes to the hospital, they or their insurance company could potentially go after the cyclist to reimburse the medical expenses. Auto insurance would cover a driver, but the cyclist may not have that to cover their liability in this case.

"You never know, the cyclist in question may have earned it by riding off the curb right in front of this car, too. It happens all the time." "The driver may have even been injured or had a concussion, or otherwise not realized the person was injured." "Not to be a cyclist-hater but as many idiots as I’ve dodged while driving my car, I wouldn’t doubt it for a second, in which case, maybe this cyclist will have learned a valuable lesson about right-of-way." Changing modes of transportation doesn't make those comments any more acceptable - yet it's everyone else being "quick to judge" and "self-righteous", correct? Haven't we done this already?

Benzo is right. I humbly suggest if anyone finds themselves in a like predicament, that you check for witnesses, then quickly dispatch the wounded victim with a good knife, handy rock, or glass shard. If it's dark, perhaps you could drag the person out into the road and leave them to be ran over by multiple vehicles. After all, who among us could enjoy their cycling, knowing there's a manhunt on for them? Good point, Benzo!

Thanks, Salty, I knew somebody would climb up on their pulpit and spew righteousness. PS: my comments are very acceptable to me. If you don't like them, tough luck for you, pal.

You are higher on your horse than anyone who has ever posted here, but also too full of yourself to realize it. Keep telling us how those "idiot" pedestrians deserve to be taught a lesson via a trip in an ambulance, though - that's enlightened stuff and I am truly sorry you think that's acceptable.

@Val: isn't there an age limit for posting on this board? I thought minors weren't allowed here without parental supervision.

Salty, you're an old, pathetic Liar. I never said anyone deserved an ambulance ride. That's plain and simply a LIE. It's really pathetic you can't handle any dissenting opinion. I feel sorry for you and at the same time, find your vindictive pettiness amusing. BTW, you may want to research the whole Freedom of Speech thing. The last time I checked, we are ALL entitled to our own opinions, even on the Bike-PGH message boards. Until we have the pleasure of conversing again, enjoy your self-appointed role as a petty tyrant and cyber-bully!

Val, calm down, please. Stop picking fights. Nobody here is deserving of it.

@Jay, I am only mildly disappointed, seeing as how I had you figured for one of down-to-earth people on this board. It's not the first time I've been wrong... Go ahead and jump o the bandwagon, it's crystal clear (again) how things work on these forums... people are entitled to an opinion, as long as it's the 'popular' opinion. How pathetic...

@Jonawebb, hey man, all I did was post an opinion. I didn't pick a fight with anybody. But I'm not going to tolerate some d-bag lying and misrepresenting what I said. I am not deserving of that...

Groupthink: is a psychological phenomenon that occurs within a group of people, in which the desire for harmony or conformity in the group results in an incorrect or deviant decision-making outcome. Loyalty to the group requires individuals to avoid raising controversial issues or alternative solutions, and there is loss of individual creativity, uniqueness and independent thinking. The dysfunctional group dynamics of the "ingroup" produces an "illusion of invulnerability" (an inflated certainty that the right decision has been made). Thus the "ingroup" significantly overrates their own abilities in decision-making, and significantly underrates the abilities of their opponents (the "outgroup").

You're calling me a "d-bag" but I'm the "bully"? You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but pulling your little victim act while attacking other posters both individually and collectively is not cool.

@Val, you basically have to count on everything you post on the Internet getting half misinterpreted, according to the prejudices of the reader, who might not have read your message that carefully in the first place. I don't think you believe pedestrians who step out in front of a cyclist and get hit deserved it; what you were saying is that even if they didn't deserve it, they still might get a ride in an ambulance, so they should watch out. And I don't think you were trying to justify cyclists not helping in an accident; you were trying to explain how that could happen. I get it. But when you post something that could be interpreted that way, due to the haste or point of view of the reader, and they respond, well, that doesn't make them a liar or anything else you called people. It just comes with the territory. So, please dial it down. Nobody's doing anything other than arguing that pedestrians shouldn't get hit by cyclists, and cyclists should help with accidents, which you agree with. You just posted something that could be interpreted as being on the other side of the argument, and everybody wants to make it clear that they disagree with that point of view -- which, in fact, you do too.

Yeah, and being a LIAR is cool. Dude, you wouldn't know Cool if it jumped up and bit you on your ass! Here's what I REALLY said about the two involved in that collision: "I hope they're BOTH alright". But you somehow omitted that part in your petty little crybaby rant.

@jonawebb, you say I have to settle for my words being misinterpreted. Misinterpretation is one thing; someone being inflammatory and deliberately dishonest is a separate issue entirely. I pretty much let it all go, the first time we had one of these little group bashings; I don't feel inclined to do so again. I find it odd that you paint yourself as being so level headed and fair, but neglect to address anyone else other than me. That's subtle but not very subtle; it's designed to make it all look like this is my issue, I'm the antagonist, etc. As we all know, that's one of the benefits of being in the in-crowd on this board. You guys get to decide who's right and who's not, threaten to block me just like before, etc., etc... But I should thank you because now, I think I may just start an alternate webpage for cyclists in Pittsburgh. A page for adults who can handle a little humor, a little (or a lot!) dissent, and don't wear their vaginas pinned on their sleeve! You guys are best left alone in your little incestuous group where everybody thinks and talks the same. Nice and neat...

You know, every time people post here about new stuff they've gotten I always end up thinking whether I should get it. So now, thanks to Val, I'm thinking about getting a vagina button.

Now THAT'S funny. Just when I thought all the Oxygen had been sucked out of the room...

Take deep breaths. Walk away for a while. This need not be a fight. We've had this, um, discussion before.

I think that this site really needs an "ignore member" feature, so that those of us who think Val has nothing to add besides rude comments can simply click a box and never see said comments again. Lacking such a feature... well, like they say: "don't feed the trolls." But what I really wanted to say was, no one "deserves" to be hit. Make a dumb comment, get a dumb response. Take it with grace instead of blowing up over it and resorting to name calling. Sorry Val, but you aren't being singled out as some random act... you draw this attention to yourself. I'm not siding with anyone here when I say that you are consistently inflammatory. I'm not saying that it is intentional, either, but it is what it is.

Val: "You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too." Val: "I never said anyone deserved an ambulance ride." "Earn: 2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action." You should definitely start your own message board. Then you could edit your old posts to match what you later claim you've said.

@Val: "the pedestrian in question may have earned it " that quote (from your earlier post) was interpreted via your tone as meaning "the pedestrian might have deserved it." If that wasn't your intended meaning, you should have clarified that after Salty's or anyone else's reply. The fact that you jumped directly to petty name calling and insulting people showed your lack of maturity, and I correctly called you out on that. So suck on that for a minute. As for freedom of speech, internet forums are moderated and inherently do not come with a guarantee of freedom of speech. The rules for this board specifically state "Be constructive and no SPAM." which means non-constructive comments and spam are subject to deletion (aka censorship) by the moderators. So yours, mine, and everyone else's shit-posting above should, according to the rules, be deleted, leaving our voices muted and our freedom to say what we feel sufficiently trampled. themoreyouknow.ogg

Steven wrote:Val: “You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too.” Val: “I never said anyone deserved an ambulance ride.” “Earn: 2. To acquire or deserve as a result of effort or action.” You should definitely start your own message board. Then you could edit your old posts to match what you later claim you’ve said.

You should extract your head from your ass, and see that I clearly meant that the pedestrian may well have precipitated the collision by stepping off the curb in front of a speeding bicycle. It's really that simple, Nancy, I mean, Steve.

@Val, two things 1) You are aware that the fundamental rule of Internet argumentation is that whoever posts last loses -- right? 2) Calling guys girl names is childish and silly, especially with two women currently at the top of the Pittsburgh Endomondo rankings. I wish I was that tough.

Can we ban this guy already? I think he failed his second chance.

Stefb, I knew we could count on your snarkiness. I'm guessing a certain someone won't be far behind. You've really failed your second chance with me...

Val wrote:Stefb, I knew we could count on your snarkiness. I’m guessing a certain someone won’t be far behind. You’ve really failed your second chance with me…

Go pick a fight somewhere else.

When I said we had had this, um, discussion before, it was with someone who posted as fungicyclist. Here is Scott's take on that conversation, July 2011: http://localhost/mb/topic/east-lib-blvd-jerks/page/2/#post-222255

I rarely post on the message board any more except about the group rides that I participate in. When I joined the board a few years ago it was a fun intimidation free community of fellow cyclist. Name calling, bickering and insults were rare. It's happening more often now and I don't feel as comfortable about posting here as I once did. The message board has great people that I consider the best friends I have ever had. Unfortunately the good things about the message board are being overshadowed by a small number of trouble makers. Because of that I will not post on or read the Message Board.

I've corresponded with a few folks already who happen to agree that there is a core group of users on here, who do their best to dominate every discussion. And reading the post from Mr. Marvellous, I'd say there are some more out there. It is not incumbent upon the Writer to explain every little detail in literal terms, so no feelings get hurt. It is the Reader's responsibility to exercise their given comprehension skills to discern or filter their meaning and if unable to do so, ask for more information. Of course NO ONE thinks ANYONE deserves to get plowed by a bicycle rider, car, locomotive or other moving vehicle. Having said that, raise your hand if you've never cursed some idiot under your breath, for making you execute a dangerous maneuver (maybe in traffic!) to avoid such an occurrence. Maybe instead of copying and pasting my entire post and then using it for target practice (Salty), you might try to exercise some of that maturity everyone keeps talking about and discern what it is I was actually saying. In fact, if you skim ALL the posts on this thread, you might notice I'm not entirely alone in my assertions. I didn't join this site to have a place to argue, I can get that anywhere. But I don't usually back down, it's a personal rule of mine. I'm done debating this chickenshit topic and I hope that both parties are okay.. AS I CLEARLY STATED BEFORE. Lastly, if a bunch of people think this site is being monopolized by a few self-designated elites, there just MIGHT be some truth to it...

"I didn’t join this site to have a place to argue, I can get that anywhere. But I don’t usually back down, it’s a personal rule of mine. " There is a time to back down and a time to stand up. Stand up for what you believe. Stand up for what is right. Back down when it amounts to a miscommunication/misunderstanding. The only thing that separates you from "a few self-designated elites" is your attitude. There are no walls here, other than what you put in place yourself. You dont' have to agree with the core group of posters to fit in here. If you are polite and courteous, than I don't personally have a problem with you whether we agree or disagree on the topic at hand. If you are ever polite/courteous, that gets drowned out in threads like this. I don't know, maybe it's your personality? I suffer from foot-in-mouth-syndrome myself. BUT... I recognize when I'm the instigating and I take a step back rather than continue to add fuel to the fire (at least, I usually do).

I hear you have a sequel coming out. Straight to DVD though, ouch.

Val wrote:You never know, the pedestrian in question may have earned it by stepping off the curb right in front of this biker, too. It happens all the time. The cyclist may have even been injured or had a concussion, or otherwise not realized the person was injured. Not to be a ped-hater but as many idiots as I’ve dodged while riding my bike, I wouldn’t doubt it for a second, in which case, maybe this pedestrian will have learned a valuable lesson about right-of-way. Namely, that right-of-way bullshit is small compensation when you’re taking an ambulance ride. I hope they’re both alright.

In case you missed it, Drewbacca, this is my first post in its entirety. Yeah, I can see how it's positively dripping with attitude. I guess it's a small miracle I wasn't banned immediately for having the temerity to write such an awful post. Now that you mention it, I guess I'm just a bad person. Now I finally get it...

rice rocket wrote:I hear you have a sequel coming out. Straight to DVD though, ouch.

I hear your mom has a sequel coming out, too. :)

tsk tsk tsk... I work Downtown and see all of the above: Aggressive cyclists who run red lights, go flying-by almost hitting pedestrians, etc. I also see cyclists who are courteous and follow most road rules. I've seen mindless pedestrians run into crossing the street without looking almost making me crash at times (and even laughing at me). I've also seen people staying on the sidewalk and crossing cautiously. Cars, buses... all the same. Both safe and dangerous behaviors exist of either camp. However and regardless, if an altercation happens, if someone is hurt, people should stay at the scene -regardless if a cyclist, pedestrian, car, etc... Gonna have to say it: everytime I see a kamikaze cyclist riding through Downtown, it upsets me. Because while there's equally "good" and "bad" riders out there, to anyone else-the public, we all look the same "people riding bikes", and whatever good/bad behaviour one does, reflects on the other. And if the behavior is negative, well.... is like taking a step back for every step forward. Sigh.... Now, focusing on the news at hand: any updates on the pedestrian? or the cyclist identified? All that the cyclist accomplished by leaving the scene is to point culpability at him/her regardless if they were at fault or not. And while I know that car drivers are usually the ones fleeding the scene all time, that doesn't mean that cyclists should do it too.

So when we see other cyclists wantonly breaking traffic laws and riding dangerously, do we attempt to educate them as to the error of their ways? I think we should. Maybe this topic should be another thread..... if others are interested and willing to discuss.

On Principle: yes. I think it's a judgement call. Some people are capable of pulling it off, some aren't.

I never called, nor have I implied that, you are a bad person... you just suffer from foot-in-mouth disease. We should probably start a support group.

@Helen S It's kind of a tread lightly situation. I mentioned to a guy that had just cut off about half a dozen cars and ran several red lights that we ended up at the same place (by that PNC building by the trail) and he started cursing at me and something along the lines of me being holier than though. I continued talking to him until about the HMB and he was basically like "I don't give a shit about the cars or working with them or building a community, I've been riding my bike for 20 years and I'm used to fighting for myself" Some people with this mentality drive, some ride a bike, it's hard to break through to them

Unless you the person personally I think you just keep your mouth shut and ride like you want others to ride.

rsprake wrote:Unless you the person personally I think you just keep your mouth shut and ride like you want others to ride.

agreed.

Yep, because nothing changes behavior like a closed mouth Now sarcasm on the other hand...

Drewbacca wrote:I never called, nor have I implied that, you are a bad person… you just suffer from foot-in-mouth disease. We should probably start a support group.

No double standards here, folks, keep moving...

Does anybody know if "Never Back Down 2" is available at RedBox?

I don't know but I'm suddenly in the mood for some Tom Petty.

Salty, that's really hilarious. You're funnier than dick cancer!

Well, at least we've moved on to male insults. Baby steps. It's really hard to educate somebody on how to ride, except for a newbie or somebody you know. And I would expect that people who ride like assholes often are, and aren't that interested in hearing comments from other riders. But still, polite advice can have an impact over time, even if the rider responds negatively at first. I have modified my riding style over my lifetime, even in response to drivers honking at me. (For a little while, when I was a teenager, I tried riding right in the middle of the road -- perfect spot, no cars!)

It can't hurt much to offer advice regarding biking norms - if someone is just making different choices knowingly, they probably won't change, but if they just don't know what's considered correct behavior, they could be very grateful. You don't need to be a newbie to be unaware of the rules, either, just disconnected or unaware of the community. As an example, I grew up in a fairly rural area where there's not much to know about traffic rules, no separate sidewalks to worry about, not many cars, etc. When I moved to a more urban environment for college there was really nobody around to tell me how one rides in a city, and I had no idea that rules or laws about bikes even existed, so I just zipped around on or off the sidewalk, or in the middle of the road, or however seemed least likely to get me killed. I definitely irritated and endangered plenty of people - including myself - for several years before I met anyone who filled me in on some basic rules. I wish it had happened sooner ... So I only see upsides to at least asking if someone wants some advice, if they're displaying erratic or otherwise undesirable behavior and it's not obviously a reasoned decision.

There are a few who can be reached, but anything beyond a polite suggestion in the moment, when it costs you nothing, is likely wasted energy. Best bet is to focus energy on new riders. People who've been at it for a while in the same environment, especially if they're regular riders, have already ingrained their habits.

helen s wrote: So when we see other cyclists wantonly breaking traffic laws and riding dangerously, do we attempt to educate them as to the error of their ways? I think we should. Maybe this topic should be another thread….. if others are interested and willing to discuss.

While I kind-of started this, I disagree with this..... As rsprake said: "...ride like you want others to ride..." because I think that's the most efficient way. I usually just roll my eyes at people riding dangerously, or might raise my hand with a "are you for real?" look on my face. Other than that I stay polite in the road. There's been times when I've been riding with strangers who don't stop for red lights and/or don't make turn signals, that when they see me doing it, they commented "I guess that makes sense". Most of the time these people have been of the older-crowd, but that goes to show that sometimes people are fairly new to city riding and don't realize the benefits of being a predictable cyclist on the road. I will note that if someone, weather cyclist OR pedestrian OR driver does something that almost makes me crash, or is just over-the-top dangerous, I do tend to yell something at them. I do this also when I drive: My Dad always taught me that if someone does something on the road that is really just wrong and dangerous, it is my civil duty to point it out, in the hopes that they will remember -or realize- that what they did was unsafe. So yeah, I'm done.....

"People who’ve been at it for a while in the same environment, especially if they’re regular riders, have already ingrained their habits." I have been at it a while in the same environment as a regular rider, but have changed my attitude quite a bit in the last 2 years, mainly from reading comments on this board. I used to feel more like a lone ranger renegade cyclist, but now feel I should be the model cyclist any time there are other vehicles in sight. I do still go through red lights after a stop if there are no other vehicles in sight, often the case on early Sunday mornings. Riding through town during rush hour once, I was behind a guy on a too small mountain bike who was running lights and weaving on and off the sidewalk. When I caught up to him I just asked if he felt the bike was a vehicle or a toy. He replied the latter- and I left it at that for him to ponder.

There were three of us riding along Sarah St one Saturday back in December. We stopped for a stop sign, then almost got creamed by another cyclist who blew a stop sign at an intersection. One of us said something corrective -- pleasant tone of voice, not threatening, kindalike a "I wouldn't have done that" (it's been four months, I don't recall exactly) -- and got in response a flow of profanity and insults, being called at best "holier than thou". "Um, we were in the right?" was our collective (and voiced) response, which just sent the guy over the edge. We just pedaled away, shaking our heads. When you are clearly in the wrong, and cannot admit it, is there any hope for you?

@Stu for some reason this makes me think of a letter to the editor of a skater magazine a while back. The author was writing in to say that he'd just found out that Washington, D.C., is not in Washington state, and he'd just like to give a big f*ck you to all the people who had not told him that over the years.

^ That was super helpful. Now I get it!

"There are a few who can be reached, but anything beyond a polite suggestion in the moment, when it costs you nothing, is likely wasted energy. Best bet is to focus energy on new riders." (Prepare to roll eyes) This reminds me of veganism. The few that can be reached are worth it, even if you have to go through a few people cursing at you to get it. It could be one less pedestrian ran over, a lot less annoyed drivers, and for those who don't change their behavior, at least they're being presented a counter-view from another cyclist, rather than being able to just demonize cars. Chances are, they're not going to ride any more dangerously because we talk to them

Case in point, I just ate bacon while rolling my eyes at you. ;) mmmmmm bacon. It's a good example though... there is a distinction between being helpful (pointing out the harm in a lifestyle choice in a non-combative way) vs having a sort of holier-than-thou approach. I don't think anyone would ride "more dangerously" though... they will simply ignore the input. Ultimately, it's not the message that is a potential problem but how it is presented. I think that comes back to why it is better to point out bad behavior to someone you know as opposed to a stranger. Personally, I just try to keep the message short. Sometimes I will yell at a cyclist out of my car window: "Hey! I'm a cyclist too... and what you just did was really stupid!" It must be that angry-motorist agression or something as I am less likely to point out bad behavior while on two wheels?

Pierce's comments made me realize how important it is to invite new cyclists and make new riders feel included but more importantly, have fun doing the sport. Because then at least while they're newly developing riders, they are gluttons for information. And of course, what better time to teach someone else proper etiquette and survivability skills... PS: Helen, there's your strategic outlook. If you want to make good cyclists, grow them.

I guess I'll just say I have a limited supply of do gooder energy and this seems like an inefficient way to use it. I mean, if I'm right next to someone who's been riding like like a lemming I'll express some polite concern (something like... "hey man, that was kind of close, be careful out there"). What I won't do is yell, try to catch up with them, and certainly won't go their way instead of mine to try to get another chance to talk. The more you do the more you look like someone with an agenda and the more the defenses go up anyway. And yes, a select few idiots might ride even more aggressively to ditch you / prove a point in their minds... people like being "right". Helen, I salute you and anyone trying to be a model cyclist... you're better than I. But it makes sense you'd find counterexamples among our midst... us regular readers/posters think WAY more about cycling than your average Joe. It makes sense some of us wouldn't just think, but would tinker with our riding style in response. I maintain that most people don't think, and don't want to think about how they transport themselves. That's half the reason it's so hard to get people out of their cars. Pierce, I like vegan foods. I just happen to like them even more when you add a little meat.

Actually, I'm taking that rather literally, with my eldest daughter. She's too young to be riding in the street solo, but I'll take her with me (and the two little ones in the trailer) on some super-quiet stretches with me, most likely on Sunday mornings, so she can get some practice and learn the skills. For the time being at least, she still listens to me.

ITT: schadenfreude

"Pierce, I like vegan foods. I just happen to like them even more when you add a little meat." Speaking of which... I make a great salmon-salad with veganaise!