BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

Dang! Sure hope he is ok! For the record, the weather is great - still daylight at time of accident, although dusk not far off. Sky is clear. Visibility should have been good.

The weather is nice, but the light (at least when I went by) was in that grey zone of "should I be turning my blinkies on?" That's also a deceptive stretch: cars tend to speed and it's a hump that limits sight lines. I always try to be cautious on it. Of course we don't yet know what happened, hit by car, dooring, heart attack... Anyway, I hope he's ok.

Yeah, that was me (unless there was another incident at the same intersection). I prefer not to get into the details, but we can rule out heart attack. I appreciate the concern.

@maggies-sister, Glad to hear that your ok enough to at least post on here. I hope you heal real soon.

Another one this morning: "@pgtraffic 8:14 AM - 18 Sep 13 Bicyclist struck by vehicle at Friendship Av and Edmond St in Friendship, reported on way to hospital with head injury."

ugh... :(

buffalo buffalo wrote:Another one this morning: “@pgtraffic 8:14 AM – 18 Sep 13 Bicyclist struck by vehicle at Friendship Av and Edmond St in Friendship, reported on way to hospital with head injury.”

Scary. I rolled through there possibly minutes before this happened. Hope they are alright!

Friendship & Edmond: http://www.wtae.com/news/local/allegheny/vehicle-hits-bicyclist-in-bloomfield-1-injured/-/10927008/21994856/-/ymumnnz/-/index.html

[edit collision]

[never mind]

FlacidMeatLog • an hour ago ? "We need to ban bikes before something tragic happens! Why can't everyone just buy cars?" Valid point guys. Lets shut 'er dahn and buy more carz.

Doesn't this intersection have a crossing guard at it in the mornings?

*"before"* something tragic happens? Really?

username abbvs to FML. userpic is Buddy Christ. Gonna go out on a limb and guess sarcasm here...

but there's a bike lane there! shouldn't that paint have protected the bicyclist?

I'm curious to know more about how this happened. In particular, was this caused by a driver squeezing past a cyclist without sufficient space? Related: Do we need to remove that bike lane and put in sharrows instead? Especially if it's more harmful than helpful? Just asking questions here, but they need to be asked, and answered.

This is my morning commute, I passed the scene very shortly after the collision as the first responders were just arriving. If I hadn't paused to fill the tires up this morning...I cringe at what could have happened. I am cringing anyway. Anyhow, this intersection is EXACTLY the point were the bike lane ends and the sharrows start on the narrow part of inbound Friendship Ave. I get the business from drivers on a regular basis as I shift to the left to take the lane. p.s. this is also a well marked school zone with a 15 mph limit and flashing lights, FWIW

this intersection is confusing for all involved with that odd jug handle and and circle.

buffalo buffalo wrote: Gonna go out on a limb and guess sarcasm here…

It's kinda hard to push an "unreasonable driver" position past the point where people would believe it is, indeed, a real driver. FML is no worse than the guys debating Stu on facebook I personally think that if we all bought cars then our economy would get out of the doldrums and there would be some hard-working, deserving billionaires that would get the opportunity to make some real money. Which is what makes America great. It's a shame I keep getting distracted each time I head for the car dealership. SMDH.

I drove by the scene at Friendship & Edmond this morning on my commute, before first responders but after a small crowd had already gathered. From the position of the vehicle, it looked like the driver was attempting to cross Friendship Ave heading north on Edmond from that weird turnaround at the west end of Friendship Park. I think the cyclist was struck as he or she rode through the intersection heading west on Friendship Ave. Seeing someone on the ground like that made my stomach drop. I really hope the victim is OK.

Glad to see the driver didn't leave... I'm trying to think of how the light works in this intersection. (Or basically, I'm trying to think of possible scenarios) I know going outbound, folks going around the park often hit the gas and try to beat any vehicle coming down friendship. Same goes for inbound on the other side of the park (Gross St?) but I *think* there's a traffic light inbound at the intersection where this happened. I know I often get stuck in a line of cars, but haven't actually been stopped at the front and checked out the intersection for specific trafficking. I do know I've been trying to get hold of anyone I know who rides through there. Sad morning messages, to make sure your friends haven't been knocked out during their commute.

From Street View, it looks like a northbound vehicle on Edmond has a stop sign, while a westbound vehicle gets a traffic light. Maybe the intersection would be safer with a traffic light for both directions.

Given the way vehicles enter and negotiate the Friendship loop, it is similar to a roundabout - portends poorly for the possible use of roundabouts in Pgh. I just don't think Pgh Drivers are bright enough to get it.

Steven wrote:From Street View, it looks like a northbound vehicle on Edmond has a stop sign, while a westbound vehicle gets a traffic light. Maybe the intersection would be safer with a traffic light for both directions.

This sounds right, just based on seeming to remember people coming at me on the left with no restriction of a red light... (Am I reading this right?)

This sounds right, just based on seeming to remember people coming at me on the left with no restriction of a red light… (Am I reading this right?)

I think that signal controls the Cedarville & Friendship intersection. When the westbound vehicle on Friendship has a red, the light northbound at Cedarville is green. The stop sign northbound on Edmond is placed in the middle. Vehicles crossing Friendship northbound onto Edmond are supposed to stop regardless of the light, but westbound traffic on Friendship is supposed to stop before Edmond when the light is red -- even thought the light controls the next intersection. It's basically a giant clusterfuck. Honestly, that little road that lets you "turn" left onto Edmond from Friendship Ave probably shouldn't exist at all -- and I say this as someone who uses it as a shortcut to get home every day. The big problem with Friendship Park is that the ends of the park don't allow it to function like a roundabout at all. With roundabouts, traffic entering the circle is supposed to yield to traffic already in the circle. Heading east on Friendship and want to circle back west or turn north on Gross? You are not continuing in the circle, you are making a u-turn or a left turn. Traffic "entering" westbound has the right of way. Same deal if you are heading west and want to circle back east, although in that case you are given a different weird little u-turn lane with a stop sign. I actually think eliminating the lights and adding roundabouts on each side of the park would make it less confusing.

@edmonds - if it were actually a roundabout it would be a lot less confusing, the way it is (on both ends of the park) now is completely messed up and I'm surprised there aren't more crashes there. What Steven said is correct and so if the crash happened as described (cyclist westbound on Friendship, driver northbound on Edmonds) and the cyclist had the green there's no doubt it was the driver's fault: http://goo.gl/maps/QC51J Hope the cyclist is ok... I haven't seen any reports since this morning.

Anyone got video of rolling through here under normal conditions? I've been through there, maybe get past that once a month, but not enough to become familiar with its particular weirdnesses. And that's important. A street should be self-explanatory. You shouldn't have to "know how" to traverse a corner, no matter what mode of travel you use. I myself don't have a problem with Babcock Boulevard and its six places where a right turn lane materializes and you have to get left, because I do it all the time. But that would scare and confuse the hell out of anyone who doesn't do it all the time. Yeah, let's analyze this one closely. With an area as bicycle dense as this part of town, on a street that seems it should be fairly safe and low speed, this sort of thing simply should not happen.

As someone who bikes through here almost every day, I don't think it's really confusing as much as it is a place where vehicles turning left onto Edmonds from that weird little hook frequently try to game the system. It is a little weird because while there is a light there, cars in the hook just have the stop sign and can cross there. Add into the mix that there are frequently vehicles blocking the bike lanes on either side of the street on the other side of the intersection (either at the funeral home on the one side and Friendship Medical Associates on the other), it can be hairy. I know that cars can cross there even if I have the light and I know that they are always trying to gun it across there at their first opportunity, so I approach that area cautiously. I think being someone who drives this neighborhood with some regularity helps, cuz I understand how that intersection works, but I could see a non-driver just assuming that they have a green light and oh yeh, obviously that car has to wait for the light.

Has anybody heard anything more on the condition of the cyclist?

People going straight on Friendship are correct to assume people on Edmonds have to wait, even if they don't have a light. I understand that it might not work that way in practice but the people on Edmonds are doing something illegal if they violate the right of way of people on Friendship. Of course, they do it anyways because there's zero enforcement and they usually get away with it, until that one time they don't and cream a cyclist... Wait - they probably get away with it even then, just not the poor cyclist.

I travel this stretch on Friendship from the west. Once you get to the bit with the bike lane it starts to feel safe. I guess not so much from the other direction. I would tend to agree that this intersection would work better as a roundabout. Roundabouts don't need to take up much space: The nice thing about roundabouts is that once you're in you have absolute right of way; riding along the periphery will get you to where you want. While getting that picture I ran across this baby: Now this is what I call road design...

Many PGH drivers don't get the concept of stop signs when presented on their path. Pretty sure they have no capacity to mentally process a roundabout. Exactly how many roundabouts are there in western PA, let alone Allegheny county? City of PGH? Nobody understands how to handle them on a practical level, and I don't see that as a reasonable fix.

Well, there's the one at Reynolds @ Homewood at least. Roundabouts are simpler to understand than stop signs, and would have eliminated the 90 degree conflict in this faux-roundabout on Friendship. No one stops at stop signs anyways (except me), so why continue the charade? There are entire cities with no stop signs at all.

In Ahlirs pic 3 posts up - I see Pghdrivers pretty much going straight across that sucker.

quizbot wrote:Many PGH drivers don’t get the concept of stop signs when presented on their path. Pretty sure they have no capacity to mentally process a roundabout.

Firstly, I hope the cyclist is okay. Shame. I agree with quiz, but it isn't just Pittsburgh. Drivers in the US just aren't trained how to drive. They are trained how to parallel park and given their license. Hence my mirror hanging off my glasses as I ride my bike. On a brighter note, this weather has been amazing!

There's also a roundabout in South Park on Corrigan Drive, and one on Ewing Road in Moon that opened in 2011. They're talking about one for West McMurray too (a few miles into Washington County). There's also this one, but it's not so local.

I don't know, I feel pretty unsafe in roundabouts on a bike, less safe than with stop signs. There's too much chance drivers will do something unexpected. Lovely Bicycle had an article on roundabouts, which are more respected in Ireland, where she is now, than in New England, where she is from: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2013/08/the-cyclist-and-roundabout.html. Every time I'm driving over on Penn and I head back home and realize I'm trapped into going through that weird area in Friendship with the park in the middle of the road, I groan. It is just a mess.

Steven wrote:There’s also this one, but it’s not so local.

eeuugh. that looks like a demented version of dupont circle... [ps., DC's got a whole bunch of traffic circles. they've also got a whole bunch of bikers. pretty sure someone's figured something out...maybe someone should ask them?]

I suppose if you grow up with them, they are second nature. Here is one of the neighborhoods where I grew up. My grandmother's house is roughly in the center of this view. Note the two circles at the bottom, one at the top. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Dorrance+at+Ward+Court,+Buffalo,+NY&hl=en&ll=42.837835,-78.814867&spn=0.013831,0.033023&sll=40.461389,-79.989417&sspn=0.003588,0.008256&hq=Dorrance+at&hnear=Ward+Ct,+Buffalo,+Erie,+New+York+14220&t=m&z=16 The Dorrance at Ward Court one, which now sports stop signs (they were unsigned when I was a kid), is just the size to handle a bunch of traffic. This setup has been the same for 50 years. The one at the west end of Main Street, East Aurora NY, has also not changed appreciably in 50+ years. This handles three numbered highways, a gas station, and a McDonalds (and mere feet away from a Tim Horton's). This one uses yield signs. https://maps.google.com/maps?q=main+at+seneca,+east+aurora,+ny&hl=en&ll=42.767667,-78.629622&spn=0.003462,0.008256&sll=42.831903,-78.808751&sspn=0.013895,0.033023&hq=main+at+seneca,&hnear=East+Aurora,+Erie,+New+York&t=m&z=18 Remember, it also snows like the devil here, too.

quizbot wrote:Exactly how many roundabouts are there in western PA, let alone Allegheny county?

From the top of my head (I biked there): https://maps.google.com/maps?q=15219&hl=en&ll=40.319195,-80.007881&spn=0.005857,0.012617&sll=41.410718,-80.388102&sspn=0.011523,0.025234&hnear=Pittsburgh,+Pennsylvania+15219&t=h&z=17 https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.339762,-80.067238&spn=0.00207,0.003154&t=h&z=19 https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.374847,-80.055377&spn=0.004138,0.006309&t=h&z=18 https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.446392,-79.9032&spn=0.004134,0.006309&t=h&z=18 Forgot this one -- https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.474265,-79.908983&spn=0.001461,0.003154&t=m&z=19

Steven wrote:Ewing Road in Moon that opened in 2011

https://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&ll=40.480692,-80.201515&spn=0.005639,0.012617&t=m&z=17 I used to bike there before they built it. :) Downhill on McClaren real sharp[ turn to left and it's a Resurrection with short and steep up hill. And as soon grade disappears you Resurrection Cemetery on your right. :)

There is a big roundabout in Rochester, PA. There is also a small one in Ohio Township. Can't remember the road name, but it is on a road that connects St. Joseph Road, off Camp Horne Road to Roosevelt Road somewhere near the VFD.

Way out here in Beaver County, they've installed a roundabout in Rochester PA to replace a particularly irksome six-way intersection and it's a tremendous success. Seriously. I ride my bike around it often. I have been known to take an extra lap around it, both in my car and in my bike. View Larger Map

The roundabout in Ohio Township is on Crawford Road.

quizbot wrote:...I don’t see that as a reasonable fix.

I'll have to rethink this. Good to know there are local implementations.

So, any word about the cyclist on friendship? Or the cyclist and/or ped from Craig this am?

Quizbot - a serendipitious thing about the Rochester location is it's pretty close to the Rochester drivers license testing facility. I think most people teaching a kid to drive use the DMV parking lot with its mocked-up orange cones for parallel parking practise, and it's pretty easy to hit the roundabout coming in or out of there. I bet most people with a student driver in the area make sure to hit it, based on what my daughter tells me. BTW, she loves the roundabout, thinks it's fun.

salty wrote:So, any word about the cyclist on friendship? Or the cyclist and/or ped from Craig this am?

Per PG reporter Molly Born this morning, "@borntolede: Allegheny County dispatch supervisor saying woman was NOT hit by a car at Craig and Forbes, just fell off her bike." ... as for report of cyclist hit at Craig and Fifth: "@borntolede: County 911 has no reports of anyone being hit by a vehicle this morning in that area."

From what I gathered from someone who rode by shortly after, the police were carrying her bags and bike - so she must have fallen pretty hard (not just one of your embarrassing tumbles where the only injury is your pride). What about the cyclist in Bloomfield Wednesday? Any word?

I know the cyclist who was injured in Bloomfield. He is alive and has now been released from the hospital but he has some serious injuries to recover from.

@chinston Please tell him that many people are wishing him a rapid and complete recovery.

Neither bike accident made it into the police blotter for Tuesday or Wednesday. There was, however, a pedestrian accident in Oakland on Tuesday, the 17th. Report says a pedestrian was hit by a vehicle at North Dithridge and Bayard Street at about 7 p.m.

Vannevar wrote:Way out here in Beaver County, they’ve installed a roundabout in Rochester PA to replace a particularly irksome six-way intersection and it’s a tremendous success. Seriously. I ride my bike around it often.

Ha, completely forgot about this one even I've passed it during rando ride and 3 states ride multiple times. :) Thanks!

Mick wrote:@chinston Please tell him that many people are wishing him a rapid and complete recovery.

+1

+1

Mick wrote:@chinston Please tell him that many people are wishing him a rapid and complete recovery.

add another. and keep in mind that for every person that actually explicitly makes this wish, there are a probably a hundred or more people who do but don't put it into writing.

I was the guy who got hit in Bloomfield on Wednesday morning (9/18). I feel bad and look worse, but the doctors think that I will have a full recovery with time. Thanks for those of you who typed or just thought your condolences and good wishes. Thanks, too, to the first responders and care providers who helped me. I have been a bike commuter since September 2010, and I was heading to work on my usual route when it happened. I was heading west on Friendship Avenue, as it runs along Friendship Park behind West Penn Hospital. I was in the bike lane, and I had a green light at the intersection of Friendship and Edmond, so I kept going. While I was going through the intersection, a car cut across it, and we collided. I remember seeing the car cross my path and not being able to stop before hitting it. My next memory is of being in the ambulance. The bike is totaled. I haven't seen my helmet yet but assume that it is, too. As for me, I somehow managed not to break any bones, but I have some chipped teeth, a very mangled face, hands that are scraped and swollen, and some spinal swelling that has caused nerve damage which makes my hands extremely painful - I am typing this very very slowly with one finger and with some effort. I had a concussion and don't remember the time between hitting the car and being loaded into the ambulance. All of my injuries are supposed to heal in good time. I am grateful for that and for the people who have been and are helping me - my wife, kids, neighbors, fellow Sacred Heart parishioners, co-workers, fellow bikers, etc. It has been quite the outpouring - we have more food than we know what to do with - and I am humbled by it. I don't know when or if I will be bike commuting again, but I encourage those of you who do to be careful out there. One last thing - the driver of the car stopped. One of the firefighters who arrived on the scene - a former neighbor and great guy - said that he stopped and was distraught. So I don't think this is the sort of situation where bikers and drivers should divide into tribes.

Ugh, hope you heal quickly - that sounds bad but glad to hear it wasn't worse. BTW, it's usually better not to post details until any legal case is resolved. If you email bike-pgh they can edit your post.

Glad to hear you will be ok, and that your spirits remain high. Terrible thing to go through. We hope the next couple weeks of healing go quickly. When you have regained use of your hands and fingers, and feel up to it overall, could you be sure to enter the time, date and location of the crash in the bike Pittsburgh crash map? It seems ridiculous, but it is about the best record of road safety for cyclists that we currently have. Without this evidence of prior accidents and injury, we have little standing with penndot, the city and others in pressing for bike safety improvements. If Maggie's sister is reading this, I would encourage him/her to do the same. Heal quickly and heal well, both of you! We are all sending healing vibes....

Sorry, I should have included directions on how to find the crash map. From the Bike Pittsburgh home page, click on the bike map tab. Select the online bike map option. The map will load. My fresh load always shows the trail access points. At the top of the map, click on the trail access tab to toggle that layer off. Click on the Crash tab to load the bike crash data, Once the map loads, look for the 'report a bike crash' tab. On my server, it appears to the right of the map. Be sure to click on the map at the location of your incident, or move the icon to the proper location, I think the default location is Point State Park. When you assign a name to the accident record, a geographic reference is helpful. A street, intersection or neighborhood helps link the map and the data record, which are accessed separately. Thanks!

Wishing you a quick recovery. Hopefully insurance takes care of the details, the driver learns a valuable lesson (and shares it with other drivers), and everyone moves on... sadly, that often seems like too much to ask for.

So glad you are (mostly) ok. Sending warm thoughts your way.

Quick recovery wishes to Jason and Maggie's sister!

Jason: Best wishes for a speedy recovery! Do get back to biking; I did. It's still the easiest way to get around. But do be careful. Soon, we'll be part of the street and get the respect accorded to all others. Edit: respect level == accorded to others on the street...

Hope you heal quickly. Ps- I assume you are one of the Spak brothers as in the Spak brothers who make awesome food in Garfield?

Jason Spak wrote:So I don’t think this is the sort of situation where bikers and drivers should divide into tribes.

I really admire your perspective and presence and spirit. I hope to meet you on a ride. Respects.

Wishing you a full recovery.

Wishing you a full and speedy recovery, I'm sure this was an unbelievable shock. Not sure who your physicians are, but I would urge you STRONGLY to see the concussion specialists at UPMC on the South side. Many doctors (we know this from personal experience) will not recommend this, and think even a CAT scan is enough. Your memory loss indicates some concern and concussions are still very complicated and under diagnosed. Off the soap box now. Sending you and all those recently injured on bikes healing thoughts.

Agree with seeing the concussion people at UPMC... I never lost consciousness in an accident of mine, but still tested poorly on all their tests and had to get prescription glasses I didn't need before the accident