BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

they are a highly under-appreciated group of people.

I also have encountered many helpful crossing guards, including the one at 45th – she called me honey which put a big smile on my face

i used to talk to her every day, her sons ride bikes and she got into the habit of stopping traffic for me when possible and waving me though.... even though i'm sure she deals with crazy stuff every day i never saw her in a bad mood, pretty incredible.

another top contender for #1 crossing guard is in front of the school buried in the middle of regent sq/wilkinsburg at the bottom of the hill after the school... that guy is amazing when he's paying attention and not chatting on the corner, but not nearly as reliable!

yeah that crossing guard at 45th & butler is great. yesterday afternoon i was walking on the other side of the street and she stopped her conversation, turned my way and yelled "hey you! merry xmas!"

That's Kelly Elementary School and he is the nicest guy. He chats it up with everyone. There are a few other crossing guards I try to say hello to who won't even acknowledge me.

A daily hello goes a long way to improve a daily trip.

I've never met a crossing guard I didn't like, whether I'm on foot, bike, or in a car. I don't know what it is, but they've all been super people. It's one of the sad things about the end of the school year, when they have the summer off. Not that their vacations are bad things, but I miss seeing them, I mean.

+1000 for the crossing guard on 45th and Butler. I used to live in the building on that corner.

She helped me out when someone crashed into my parked car and took off.

Obey Street and Steubenville Pike in Crafton, this woman can't possibly see more than 12 cyclists in a year, and I'm probably 4 of them, at a corner that's a melee of elementary kids waiting for the bus, commuters waiting to get on the bus, really sketchy people waiting to get on the bus, she says hello and have a nice day like I'm and old pal.

same with the woman at California and Benton in Brighton Heights. She's awesome.

The woman at Dawson and the Boulevard of the Allies is awesome too--I think she said she's been doing this for 18 years.

the guard at the corner of howley and main by liberty and the shur save was always my hero when i lived over there. cars never ever stopped and it was a terrible intersection.

i love crossing guards.

I regularly see 2. The one @ Race And Pennwood and another on Greenfield near the Catholic school. First is very friendly, second is not so much.

Oddly, I met the son of the one at Race & Pennwood a few days ago. Apparently she has been a crossing guard for 4 generations of children in Edgewood!

I pass the lady at Greenfield and Lydia (by the Catholic school) daily. She is super nice if you are on foot. Whenever I walk across the street she stands and halts traffic. When I'm on my bike she will not even wave. Not sure if she has made the connection that I am the same person.

There are two in squirrel Hill I really like. One I see on Shady, not sure of the cross street- probably Beacon or thereabouts. When I first saw her directing traffic, she was *dancing*.

The other is on Murray. I feel like I've seen her at more than one cross street, but again probably around Beacon. Absolute sweetie.

whoa.

i'm looking over the 2011 proposed city budget right now, and the city spends almost $2M on crossing guards.

$2M because people (many of which don't even live in the city) can't be civil on the streets.

talk about the high price of car culture.

in comparison, there's $100K dedicated for bike infrastructure improvements.

think about that the next time someone says that bike lanes/trails are a waste of money.

i'm not saying that the guards are a waste of money, i love them!

How do crossing guards cost $2m? That's crazy.

One of the crossing guards at Race and Pennwood is an old neighbor of mine. Really nice lady.

Or another way of looking at that is $2M protecting kids. Isn't that more to the point?

(Otherwise I agree with the larger point, that $100K is a pretty paltry sum by comparison.)

yeah, i was kinda shocked too. i don't think i'm reading it wrong.

Oddly, I met the son of the one at Race & Pennwood a few days ago. Apparently she has been a crossing guard for 4 generations of children in Edgewood! the PG should interview her

Or another way of looking at that is $2M protecting kids. Isn't that more to the point? of course! but there's one thing that they are protecting kids from

Think of the children!

I have never seen a crossing guard outside of Pittsburgh. I never knew they even had such a thing anymore. I now realize there are crossing guards all over, just never where I've lived I guess. Seems to be something about the driving culture here where yielding to pedestrians (particularly children, in this case) is not commonplace.

In fact, bike infrastructure in Davis, CA became so awesome that they just eliminated the school bus service because it was safe enough for all the kids to just bike to school.*

*Unfortunately, there seems to be an ever-increasing line of SUVs lined up to drop kids off at school every morning. I think it speaks volumes that this line of autos dropping their kids off/picking them up is almost entirely SUVs. In a town without a hill, and near perfect weather everyday.

Two million seems a lot at first. If it costs $50K a year to put one out there, then that is only 20 for the city. Not many.

What with benefits, retirement, and administrative costs, it strikes me that $50 might be on the low side.

@dwillen- SUVs are a measure of how much TV people watch. They are not purchased because they are economical (they aren't). They aren't purchased because they are safe (they aren't).

Many, many advertising dollars, some affecting content, can make even the chimp-butt ugly SUVs "attractive". It's the magic of TV!

at my old place, the bus drivers would sometimes pass my stop, and when I would come riding back, the crossing guard (arlington/elanor) would always talk about how "I wondered where you were going!" She'd also stop rush hour traffic (which, on arlington isn't horrible, but was tough to break into) so I could hit the road.

$50k to be a crossing guard? Where do I sign up?

+1 crossing guard on butler at 45th. she stops what she is doing and waves to me if i ever go through that area late enough.

$2M at 50K per would be 40 guards. They wouldn't take home 50K; that's the cost to the employer. I'm guessing they don't see 40K.

We've had the same crossing guard at Perry Hwy at Sandle, one block past Perrymont, since my son was in kindergarten over 15 years ago. I'm not sure if it's township or school district footing the bill, but I don't care. Stopping traffic on a 4-lane highway nowhere near a light has to take some guts.

The school crossing guards were almost cut from the City budget in 2004. 200 jobs were saved when the Pittsburgh Public Schools agreed to split the cost with the City. These are part time positions, so no benefits. Paying just above minimum wage, average earnings are more like $20-22K per year.

But, in checking all this out I discovered that there is a phone number at City Police where you can call to compliment a crossing guard (or complain, of course). The phone is 412-665-3775. I suspect 311 would work as well.

This is a recognition to the lady who's done crossing-guard duty at Forbes and Murray.

She works at the Right-Aid on the corner but does the crossing-guard thing as well.

One day she calls us, to tell us that our son had left his oboe in the bus shelter (twit! but that's another topic).

What a marvelous person!

I sincerely doubt that crossing-guards get paid $50k at year. That claim sounds more like one of those right-wing attacks on community services. Also, 40 guards for all of Pittsburgh out sounds out of line. There are probably many more, or the budget number is wrong (or otherwise unexplained). We're looking at ~4 hours of work a day ($50/hr!). So why doesn't someone working ~minimum wage at Rite-Aid just quit and do the guard gig "full" time? It's like 7x the salary for half the time. Get real.

When I said it might cost $50 grand for a crosswalk guard, I didn't mean they take anything near that home. Costs of hiring, insurance, benefits (sick days, vacation, retirement), cost of supervising, buying uniforms, social security tax, and payroll clerking.

$50K cost and $22K to each crosswalk guard on the streets might be realistic.

Probably costs Rite Aid $200 grand a year to man a register 24 X 7 at minimum wage .

Regardless of the cost, crossing guards are public money well spent, in my humble opinion. Whether strictly a practical matter, or a union deal or whatever, they are a municipalities expression of how it values it's children.

It was perhaps injudicious (particularly given the context in which this thread was begun) to conflate crossing guards with municipal expenditures on bike lanes.

if i'm reading the budget right, there are 132 crossing guards (i'm not sure if that's guards or shifts) plus a supervisor and assistant supervisor

These are part time positions, so no benefits. Paying just above minimum wage, average earnings are more like $20-22K per year.

if i'm reading it right, they are getting $26K for 200 days a year.

Regardless of the cost, crossing guards are public money well spent, in my humble opinion.

totally agree, that's why i started the thread.

It was perhaps injudicious (particularly given the context in which this thread was begun) to conflate crossing guards with municipal expenditures on bike lanes.

fair 'nuff. i wasn't trying to pit them against each other. just pointing out that $2M is a lot of cash to spend because people can't seem to drive sanely. it's def money well spent. in a perfect world i guess we wouldn't need crossing guards. or bikepgh for that matter.

until then, GOOooooOOOO Crossing Guards!!!

here's one giving a hug. what other public employee does this!

here's one in the 50s in Friendship looking stylish!

here's one lecturing a bunch of kids on traffic safety in 1950.

Can anyone guess where that is?

The number of guards seems to have varied a lot over time. As Sara said, there were about 200 in 2004 when the city agreed to split the cost of them with the school district. But this story from 2006 says

The city budgeted for 159 crossing guards this year at a cost of about $1.88 million, but only 127 guards are on the payroll. Next year's budget cuts 27 of those 159 positions, leaving a potential 132 crossing guards.

That 2006 article also says

Crossing guards make about $12,727 a year.

I wonder if the $26K/year figure Erok cited could be the total cost to the city, including various types of overhead? I can believe the guards might make a bit more today than they did in 2006, but not twice as much. (I find it surprising, though, that overhead for part-time workers could roughly double their cost.)

For comparison, this article from 2008 says that crossing guards in Clairton (all fired that year) had been making $8/hour for a 4 hour day. At about 200 school days a year, they were presumably earning $6400/year.

well, like i said, i don't really know what all of the numbers in the budget mean.

if you simply take the $1.75 Million, and divide by 132, it comes to $13,310.

whether that is for each guard, i don't know.

the 26 figure that i cited may be because i'm not sure what the category exactly meant, and thinking that $13K was too low

I find it hard to believe that municipalities charge ~100% overhead, though I've worked for companies that managed to get 200% (3.0); 50-60% is probably the decent norm.

I also find it offensive to oppose the interests of children and cyclists. We're adults and we can take care of ourselves; kids can't. Get a clue.

I think erok meant to say "in the 1970s in Friendship...stylish."

To be fair to the motoring public, some of the other things that crossing guards do are: prevent kids from beating each other up in certain times and places, prevent kids from throwing stones/apples/chestnuts/snowballs at cars/busses/trucks, prevent kids from pushing each other into the street, or crossing against the light... etc.

It's not *just* that people don't drive sanely, it's that in order to provide complete safety for children walking to work, cars would need to be practically banned, and that's a step farther than we are willing to go.

I also find it offensive to oppose the interests of children and cyclists. We're adults and we can take care of ourselves; kids can't. Get a clue.

now now, i never said i wanted to oppose the two. as far as taking care of ourselves, there's many intersections that i have trouble getting through without a crossing guard

Hey Mick,

24x7x365 @ $8/hr (way above minimum) plus a typical 23% benefits works out to $75,423.60 p.a.

What's with your $200k p.a.??

Anyway, guards aren't working 24h/day... more like 4. Do the math.

no lie I looked into being a crossing guard when i moved back here. work a few hours in the morning, a few in the afternoon?! see happy kids! i was into it. but being that it is a city job it was a little more complicated than that. I do think the wage was something like $9-12 an hour, but I cant remember. no benefits like erok said, it was part time. but sweet if you think about it!

it's that in order to provide complete safety for children walking to work, cars would need to be practically banned, and that's a step farther than we are willing to go.

That is nonsense. What about in all the cities that don't have crossing guards? Children manage to make it to school without getting run over all the time. While I'm glad they are there (active traffic calming), I think it is sad we need so many crossing guards. Even the crossing guards get run over in Pittsburgh. What we need is enforcement of the traffic laws. Nothing will change until that happens. Pedestrians, crossing guards, cyclists, mothers pushing strollers will all be at risk as long as people continue to drive with disregard for the law and human life.

Many, many advertising dollars, some affecting content, can make even the chimp-butt ugly SUVs "attractive". It's the magic of TV!

Whenever I see a car commercial during a show I'm watching, I get somewhat ambivalent. I think "thanks for sponsoring this program I enjoy... but I don't see myself buying your product any time soon, or ever, and I kind of wish you'd stop promoting it."

@ Erok - Are you sure that first picture is from the 1950s? It looks more 1970s or maybe 1980s to me. And is the second one around the rail bridge near 30th Street?

@ahlir- I'm thinking the whole package of supervision and hiring (pricey stuff there), payroll clerks, hiring enough people so that when one person (or 5!) quits in a huff, you don't have to close down. Payroll, taxes, insurance. All that stuff costs money - most of us it you actually have to pay people (and not minimum wage) to do it.

I'm thinking the whole overhead thing would be more than the payroll for entry level itself.

For the city? I'm guessing that if their bugdet is indeed $1.88 for the whole business of providing 132 crosswalk guards, that each guard would be getting paid maybe $6,000 apiece. I dont' know if this is accurate or not. Maybe some of what I'm counting as "overhead" - like insurance and payroll expenses, a desk somewhere that parents - or school

officials - call with concerns, etc, are covered by another part of the city budget.

I'm thinking if 132 crosswalk guards get $12,000 each, for 1.6 million, then most of what I'd call overhead is in a part of the budget not couted in the 1.88 million, which might only cover age + social security.

Maybe someone here that has more than 2 employees they hire or budget for could give a guess.

Friendship photo, I'd guess more like 1970. Guard is black, kids are white and black. Much earlier, you would not have had a black guard. Much later, all the kids would be one color or the other.

1950 photo (the car is late '40s), I thought it was by Saline St, but I'm not sure. Might be that bridge is gone or replaced. The arched structure on the distant hillside at extreme right might be the best clue.

I'm thinking if 132 crosswalk guards get $12,000 each, for 1.6 million, then most of what I'd call overhead is in a part of the budget not couted in the 1.88 million, which might only cover age + social security.

Don't forget that the city and the school district split the cost of the guards now. I don't know if it's an even split.

Roughly, the city's contribution seems to cover the actual pay for the guards, so the district's share would cover the overhead, whatever it is. If the city puts in $10 for every $1 from the school district, for instance, the overhead might be pretty small.

I found the school district budget documents here, but no mention of crossing guard expenses. Perhaps they're not detailed enough, being only a few hundred pages long....

it's that in order to provide complete safety for children walking to work, cars would need to be practically banned....

The other "safe" option is just the opposite: If a child has to cross a somewhat dangerous road on the way to school, then he goes by car. You replace the scary danger of crossing the street with the comfortable, acceptable dangers of obesity, heart disease, and the rest.

What about in all the cities that don't have crossing guards? Children manage to make it to school without getting run over all the time.

I suspect reducing the number of crossing guards leads to fewer kids walking to school. But it's possible other cities manage better because the drivers are safer. In my experience Pittsburgh drivers seem noticeably less interested in following traffic laws than those in other cities. (In some places, drivers manage to stop by the time a light turns red, instead of speeding up as they do here. Hard to believe, I know.)

crossing guards can also be seen as an investment. it pains me to think about this in monetary terms (cause you can't put a price on kid's safety). but aside from the obvious benefits of keeping kids (and adults) safe and better behaved, they also save the city money by not having to send police/ambulance etc to the scene of an incident - reducing the crashes reduces this cost. while i do believe removing crossing guards will cause some more parents to drive their kids, it's also worth noting that about 14% of pittsburgh workers have no access to a vehicle, so these kids will be walking (taking the bus) no matter what. removing the guards from the equation, you will see more crashes. and the crashes would be skewed toward the kids that don't have much of a choice but to walk.

@ Erok - Are you sure that first picture is from the 1950s? It looks more 1970s or maybe 1980s to me. And is the second one around the rail bridge near 30th Street?

ok, the photo from the site was dated "1950-1968...photographer unknown"

1950 photo (the car is late '40s), I thought it was by Saline St, but I'm not sure.

I thought saline st as well

In part, the number of crossing guards may be decreasing because the City has been closing schools. A parent requests a crossing guard at a corner on, say, Shadeland, and then the City closes Horace Mann School. I think that means the crossing guard becomes available for re-assignment, but to where? There is no other school/crossing guard request in the neighborhood. Does the position just go away? If so, that would generate the lower numbers that Steven mentioned.

Simply closing schools should increase the number of busy streets the average student has to cross, since the average distance between a residence and the school serving it would tend to increase.

Some of those distances might become so great that the child now goes by car or bus instead of walking. But in general I think the need for crossing guards would increase as a result of closing schools.

From the newspaper articles I linked to, it seems like the decrease in crossing guards over the years is basically just about money.

you can request a crossing guard in Pittsburgh:

Residents can request placement of a school crossing guard at a neighborhood intersection. A written request should be addressed to the Chief of Police, 1203 Western Avenue, Pittsburgh, PA 15233. A copy of the letter should also be forwarded to the City Budget Director, 518 City-County Building, Pittsburgh, PA 15219.

The request will be forwarded to the School Crossing Guard Program to conduct an audit of the intersection to determine the need for a crossing guard. The auditor considers traffic flow, safety of the children, and whether children are walking to school or a bus stop.

The auditor's recommendation is forwarded to the Chief of Police for approval or denial. If the Chief of Police approves the recommendation, the request is forwarded to the Budget Office who makes the final determination regarding additional guards.

For more information about the School Crossing Guard Program or to report a compliment or complaint about your school crossing guard, call 412-665-3775.

Thinking back to my childhood we had very few crossing guards. I lived in Erie in an urban neighborhood and walked over a mile to middle school and grade school UPHILL BOTH WAYS! I had to cross at two very fast intersections. Used to do the same thing to go sled riding too since my sled riding hill was at the middle school.

What if we could spend that same amount on a safe routes to school program that would improve the streets around schools rather than paying someone to stand in the way?

Just thinking out loud.

When I was a kid there was a crossing guard (same one, for at least 11 years) on the relatively busy street between my house and the local elementary school. I went to a parochial school about 6 blocks in another direction for most of elementary school. There was a City crossing guard at the big, busy intersection. Then the school appointed 7th and 8th Graders the responsibility of being crossing guards for the little kids at each of the side streets on the other end of the block. It was quite an honor. You got to leave class early, wear the cool reflective "belt and sash," etc. Since everyone (about 700 kids) walked to school, it was a good idea to have some presence on even the side streets for the littlest kids. I hadn't thought about that for a long time. How small town that seems, even though it was in a relatively large metro area.

We had "sidewalk patrol" at my school. Sash, badge, total power. You had to be recommended by your third grade teacher and you were in for life (fourth and fifth grades), barring some kind of catastrophic mishap or a dip below a 3.0 GPA. I don't remember what they did, I think mostly tattled on the bullies. Damn you, Ms. Chapman, I WAS responsible enough. They also had Hall Monitors with looser entry requirements, but when I found out those kids didn't get to wander the halls during class, I turned down her crappy consolation prize. When they're supposed to be empty is the most interesting time to monitor them!

The crossing guards were the most useful in terms of protecting kids, but there never was one at Barnesdale and Wilkins, where one was desperately needed.

What if we could spend that same amount on a safe routes to school program that would improve the streets around schools and pay someone to stand in the way?

for what it's worth, SRTS money wouldn't come from a city capital budget, it's a federal program. the crossing guards are a nice addition to using this type of money

this kinda goes back to what i was originally saying. so much money is spent because of and due to cars. fire, ambulance, police, a large chunk of the public works budget, property damage. the $2M is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount spent on the other external costs happy motoring.

I was on Sidewalk Patrol for 2 weeks until I got in a fight with the other guy stationed on my corner, Paul Thompson. The principal came out and apparently felt that was counterproductive, so that was the end of that. I was actually friends with the guy, he was just a knucklehead.

what if crossing guards were deputized with the authority to issue tickets for traffic violations? they would pay for themselves! not to mention making our streets a lot more safer than they already do.

We had the student crossing guards as well, but I don't know how safe that really was even with the orange sash.

i love this classic Teenie Harris Shot

^that's in the Hill

Perry & Sandle, there's often a McCandless town cop sitting just out of sight of northbound traffic. Someone passes a stopped school bus or does something else stupid, they don't get far.

That one spot is THE bus stop for several streets around, both sides of Perry Hwy. Not uncommon for 10 kids to get on each school's bus (elem, middle, high). She's not out there for the high school kids -- they can take care of themselves -- but if the smaller kids can get that far, she makes sure they all get on & off the bus safely.

There are frequently police officers waiting at Forbes and Braddock for drivers trying to cheat the light and speed up Forbes. That intersection would benefit greatly from a red light camera.

you too can be a city crossing guard!!

https://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/employmentcenter/JobDetails.aspx?Postings=1545

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/12036/1208061-53-0.stm

crossing guard shortage! please o please o please someone on here do this!

The other day the guard at Dawson and Blvd of the Allies fist bumped a kid who just got off his bus. It was awesome.