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Cyclist killed on Harts Run Rd.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10147/1061257-100.stm


So the fact that he took the lane instead of riding the berm makes it ok?


aaron-s
2010-05-27 19:26:15

fwiw, I ride on the roads around this probably about once a week.


aaron-s
2010-05-27 19:27:43

I street viewed this whole hill, traveling east. I don't know what berm they are talking about. There was maybe a 12" shoulder with a metal guard rail sticking out into it. I'd be taking the lane too. Poor news reporting if you ask me.


I also do not know why the driver is not being charged with a crime. If he rear ended a car and killed the driver he would be charged with a crime, I'm sure.


dwillen
2010-05-27 19:35:57

The motorist will probably claim that he/she "didn't see the cyclist" or that he "suddenly swerved out in front of me".


My suspicion is that the motorist had sun in his eyes and didn't slow down. But that doesn't relieve him of his simple responsibility not to to hit things that are in front of him.


lyle
2010-05-27 19:38:40

Man that's rough to hear that happening near my old backyard. Unfortunately I'm all too familiar with drivers wanting to drive around Indiana Township roads much faster than the sight-lines would safely allow. Harts Run has pretty good sight-lines at least between Saxonburg and Dorseyville Roads. However, rather than safely driving, people use this as an excuse to drive 50, sometimes 60 on a road with a posted speed limit of 40.


Just another reason to NOT take the lane on this road, at least if you were to be going uphill and yet another reason why suburban roads should meet a design standard that allows for a minimum width of shoulder or lane. I'm a big proponent of trying to establish design standards like this.


impala26
2010-05-27 19:46:51

The PG article infuriated me enough to join just so I could respond. According to a KDKA.com article the Allegheny County police are investigating. Hopefully they will value the life of a fellow human more than the Indiana Township police who jumped the gun and said no charges would be pressed (according to the PG article).


snail
2010-05-27 19:47:13

I ride up that hill alot too. I see the victim was from Clearfield Rd which intersects Harts Run. He probably rode that way everyday, since his only other option to get anywhere would be Harts Run to Rt8.


boazo
2010-05-27 19:54:03

makes me so angry I'm going to wait to respond.


dmtroyer
2010-05-27 19:56:58

Sad and disappointing.


rsprake
2010-05-27 20:11:38

I'm furious. So it's okay to kill someone for taking the lane?


jz
2010-05-27 20:17:02

@Lyle He could have also lost control of the bicycle and fell under the wheels.


mayhew
2010-05-27 20:19:16

@lyle - no way the sun was in the driver's eyes at 7am. It would have well below the crest of the hill at Dorseyville Rd.


I'm out in that area almost every weekend... likely less traffic on Sunday mornings.


quizbot
2010-05-27 20:51:14

I agree w/ dmtroyer, Rsprake and JZ..... so, JUST because the person was on a bike and NOT in a car, it is ok to freaking "accidentally" kill the cycler? How f-up is that?


I mean.... I'm sure the person on the truck did not do it on purpose, but not giving them any charges because of it sends the WRONG FREAKING MESSAGE!!!!!!


How can one expect drivers to respect cyclists on the road, when our laws and police enforcement don't do jack-shit?


-100


bikeygirl
2010-05-27 21:01:41

Agreed bikeygirl.


I'm willing to go out on a limb and say if the situation doesn't improve. All of us here at bike-PGH need to sign a petition or something. As a former resident of Indiana Twp. I can safely say that there seems to be little consideration of bicyclists on the roads there. This may or may not be reflected in the police there, I'm not sure. I would be willing to go out on a limb and say that they're like not as "bike-progressive" about laws even to the extent the city cops are, which is scary because the city cops are criticized all the time.


But yeah, person should be charged with vehicular manslaughter like any other driver that kills a pedestrian or another driver.


impala26
2010-05-27 21:23:54

Just spoke to an Indiana Twp police officer who was not on duty when this happened. He said that Allegheny Co Police were investigating the incident and to follow up with them. He did say if he had to guess that this would be labeled as a "tragic accident" and nothing more, but that was just a guess. I inquired what constitutes "reckless driving" under PA state law and he informed me that "reckless driving" is driving with the intent to do harm. "Careless driving" is the next step down. I inquired if the driver should be issued a citation for careless driving since s/he clearly did not have control of the vehicle. The officer had no comment.


I called the Allegheny Co. Police and spoke to a very curt lady who informed me that she had no additional information and that the investigation was ongoing.


scott
2010-05-27 21:45:16

Thanks Scott.


bstephens
2010-05-27 21:50:41

Thank you Scott...


AND YES... that's vehicular manslaughter!


And yes, signing or starting a petition for something like this sounds like a good idea if this is the situation. I mean.... I'll admit that I'm not very knowledgable on what kind of laws -if any, protect cyclists. But... it frightens me that someone can kill or injure a cyclist and no action is taken. How can one take cyclists seriously that way? And how can we demand more respect from drivers? I KNOW accident happens, but what one can deem as an 'accident' is so broad, asshole / road rage / intoxicated / careless / drivers can get away with anything!!


This also makes me curious: Do driving tests (at least the written part) cover anything about hot to drive around cyclists? I would think that maybe that would be a way to 'educate' people... at least the new drivers.


Also, city/boroughs could rack a ton of money if they included as traffic violations 'careless drivers' harrassing cyclers. And hell... even maybe for cyclists to get a type of licenses & a cycling test too if they plan to use their bike as their main mode of transportation?


I know I'm just rambling at this point, but really.... this is making me stop & think that.... if someone -anyone, can get away at running me over the road and killing me JUST because I choose to be healthy & sustainable for riding a bike.... do I wanna keep on commuting on the streets? Because as a cyclist I don't have the same rights as an automobile? Because 'accidents happen'?


Seriously... this pisses me off...


bikeygirl
2010-05-27 22:10:02

"speed not reasonable"

"failure to yield"

"failure to exercise due care"

"failure to provide a safe passing distance when overtaking"


I bet if that was a cop directing traffic, the Indiana police would be a lot more eager to cite.


PS. This is why I am unimpressed with 3-foot or 4-foot passing laws. We already have laws against running people over. If those won't be enforced, any advocacy effort spent on 3-foot laws is a huge waste of time.


lyle
2010-05-27 22:40:20

i'm going to hold off my anger until we know for sure what happened and that charges won't be filed.


but if it ends up like it seems now, a petition is not enough. not even close.


hiddenvariable
2010-05-27 23:02:32

Wow...I don't know what to say...


So sad and makes me so mad...


sail2948
2010-05-27 23:08:39

Wow, the WTAE coverage is horrible. It seems like the reporter just called medical examiner and not the police.


bjanaszek
2010-05-27 23:39:17

This makes me angry. I am sorry for the poor victim's family and their senseless loss. I can't think of a good reason why a cyclist travelling with traffic, in the lane, in daylight in good weather should have an incident with a vehicle, much less a tragic one. Which means that I can't see how this was not unavoidable....unless there are some elements missing from the story.


It reminds me - too much - of an article I read in a Wisconsin paper earlier this week. Experienced cyclist killed during an early morning training ride on rural roads. Driver was turning left into a driveway, and "didn't see the cyclist..." Cyclist rode into passenger door of vehicle, died immediately. Driver was not charged. Final verdict - cyclist was on a training ride and may have been intending to do hills at high speeds. Cyclist MAY not have even looked up, being intent on speed rather than road. Mitigating factors? Cyclist training for a ride that featured hills. Not mitigating factors? 16 year old driver. Driving on less than 6 hours sleep, after having about 6 beers with his father at a fireman's picnic the night before. Determined at scene (apparently) to have been sober... Oh, and apparently unable to see a lycra clad cyclist - riding in a group of cyclists - on a rural road.


This all makes me just plain ANGRY. This is not about harassment. This is about legal use of the road. This is not about an offending driver "feeling really sorry" and "regretting it for the rest of his life." This is about a cyclist (or cyclists) losing their life, and leaving a whole family who will be equally sorry for the rest of their lives.


I hope they throw the book at this guy, AND require that he do about a thousand hours of community service on safe motor vehicle use in the proximity of cyclists. They won't but man, I wish they would.


Sorry about the rant. For those of you who know me, you know it takes a lot to get me this pissed off.


What can we do, as a group to make sure that cyclists are taken seriously in any FUTURE incidents (assuming there will be more...)


swalfoort
2010-05-27 23:50:06

New details....this was no novice cyclist.


INDIANA TOWNSHIP (KDKA) ?

Don Parker, of Allison Park, leaves behind a wife and three children.

KDKA


A man from Allison Park has died following an accident this morning in Indiana Township.


Don Parker, 52, had two passions - one for the people in his life and the other for bicycling.


He kept a picture of his cycling team in his office at Aptech Computer Systems.


"You don't come across people very often like him, Mary Robb, family friends, co-workers, the simple things in life were the most important to him," Jill Wilder, who's worked with Don for 25 years, said.


But about 7 a.m. on Hart's Run Road, Don was on his Schwinn mountain bike. It was his daily eight-mile ride to work from Allison Park to Fox Chapel. He was traveling west when he was struck from behind by a Ford truck and killed.


Friends, like Sean Fitzpatrick, could not believe it.


"I was in shock because he is an extremely safe rider," he said. "He would put on all the gear - the helmet, the lights."


Police believe the man driving the truck may have been distracted. Police also confirm that Don was wearing a helmet and had lights on his bike.


Sean Fitzpatrick, who is also a veteran cyclist, got a text message "Pray for Don," but Don had died of his injuries just before 11 a.m. at UPMC Presbyterian Hospital.


"You get news and it's like life changes. It's like you make plans and then life happens all of a sudden, just like that," he said.


At Aptech in RIDC Park, there were many tears for their lost friend. Don worked there as a manager.


"Don and his family are very special to us," Wilder said. "He has worked here 28 years."


A few years ago when one of his co-workers was diagnosed with Multiple Sclerosis, Don put together a fundraising cycling team to participate in the MS-150 – riding from Cranberry to Erie – 150 miles.


"He took that on as his personal way to help out and the scarf he used to wear on that bike ride when he returned he used to give to her," Wilder said.


Don was married and the father of two girls and a boy. Losing him leaves a huge vacuum in a lot of lives.


"Huge. We are all just numb," Wilder said. "We just don't know yet how we're going to deal with all this."


Allegheny County Police are investigating the accident.


swalfoort
2010-05-28 01:18:33

Wow..... this for me just got worst!!! I know that getting angry is not the solution, but really.... this is extremely sad!


bikeygirl
2010-05-28 01:38:51

outrageously tragic, angering and terrifying. prayers to the family.


saltm513
2010-05-28 01:48:29

Distracted driving which results in the death of a pedestrian, cyclist, or motorist should have similar penalties as DUI causing death. In PA that's apparantly 2 to 10 yrs in prison... which is also not enough time AFAIC, but it would at least be a start. I'll bet the driver was playing with his phone.... cyclist had lights? It's not exactly easy to miss a blinkie in that shaded hollow.


Outraged like everyone else.


quizbot
2010-05-28 02:15:33

Obviously very sad, and my sympathies go out to Mr. Parker's friends and family.


I don't know if I'm angry about it as much as just sickened and discouraged, because it happens over and over again. Driver kills cyclist (or pedestrian), suffers no or minimal consequences, so there's no deterrent.


How did we get to this point? I keep having this thought that if someone from before cars time traveled to the present, they'd think it was obvious that the people operating the 2 ton metal boxes at high speeds should have complete responsibility for not hitting and killing the people that don't. *Isn't* it obvious? Why doesn't it work that way? Worse, why do I feel like that is a foreign concept to most people, including cops?


salty
2010-05-28 02:21:34

Wonder if the police are checking to see if driver was on cell phone at time of crash.


bikinggirl
2010-05-28 02:31:12

If you run over someone in the middle of the road, isn't that prima facie evidence that you were distracted?


salty
2010-05-28 02:45:13

When did we become regarded as 'safe' targets? Does being on a bike make you less of a human being? (sigh)


88ms88
2010-05-28 03:42:40

Is anyone interested in deploying a ghost bike Sunday?


ndromb
2010-05-28 06:13:49

Fifty-year-old guy, being very obviously visible, with a lot of road experience, riding his bike on a suburban road, where sight lines are pretty good, and the sun was behind him.


Y'know, that could just as easily be me, anytime I take the bike out.


Scary.


stuinmccandless
2010-05-28 10:20:51

I took the liberty of emailing this to Mary Robb Jackson at KDKA;


"Your recent piece on Don Parker, the cyclist who was killed by a truck, was very well done. This was a tragedy. Please, PLEASE, do a follow up to this. There is a large and growing cycling community in the Pittsburgh region, this man could have been any one of us. We are all stunned by this incident, but what is more stunning is the general feeling that when things like this happen, it is treated no differently than if the driver had hit a deer or a dog in the road. No charges are usually filed, and the driver is commonly back on the road within days. WHY!!! There are limits to what can reasonably and honestly called an accident.


If you want the thoughts and perspective on this incident, I suggest contacting Scott Bricker at Bike Pittsburgh, an advocacy organization working to improve cycling conditions in our area, at 412.325.4334 or bike-pgh.org"


I hope that is ok, Scott?


edmonds59
2010-05-28 12:22:56

Nick, a ghost bike seems like a good idea, but right now, I'm leaning more toward a tour-de-france style painting on the road that says "murder, 5-27-2010".


edmonds59
2010-05-28 12:40:30

+1 Edmond.... I'm in on this


bikeygirl
2010-05-28 13:20:04

Hey, the Audobon Society's Beechwood Farms Nature Reserves' property looks like it extends to Harts Run RD probably very close to where the accident took place. Maybe they would host the sign or ghost bike on their propery there. see link below for a map showing their property


nature reserve:

beechwood


the map:

beechwood map


boazo
2010-05-28 13:36:25

How does a biker get run over from behind and killed? I don’t care where they were riding in the road, this is totally outrageous. This guy didn’t have a chance and did nothing wrong. The cycling community needs to rise up and take action for the sake and well being of all cyclists. Not citing the driver with any type of traffic violation is a crime and just mindboggling. The only way motorists WILL start to take responsibility and look out for cyclists is if there are consequences for their actions. It seems all bike accidents are just written off as the biker did something wrong, they should not have been there in the first place, or the driver didn’t see them. It’s never the drivers fault, why is not seeing them a legitimate excuse. So if I hit another car I’ll guess I’ll just claim I didn’t see them and everything should be fine. How many times have you been riding on a ½ mile straight flat stretch of road with no car coming the other way and a car passes you 6in off your elbow…


bikedude
2010-05-28 13:52:05

@Stu:+1. Coulda been me. Feel terrible for that family.


From May 28 2010 Post-Gazette: "Indiana Twp. Police said Mr. Parker's bicycle was on the edge of the travel lane, not on the berm, when the accident occured."


Many of you know the laws better than me, but he had a right to the lane (let alone the "edge," right? It is inherently biased for the Police and then the Post-Gazette to characterize it this way-as if he was "in the way" of the vehicle.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-05-28 14:30:09

I had one more comment to make, with all bike fatalities the dead rider isn't here to tell their story, someone needs to defend/speak for them....


bikedude
2010-05-28 14:31:50

Just now, awesome;


"Bill,


You must have been channeling our AM production meeting. I was assigned this very follow-up and have plans to contact "Bike Pittsburgh." Having spent a lot of time in Europe - they are so much more savvy about cycling and watching out for each other.

Don Parker sounded like a wonderful guy...


Be Well,


Mary Robb"


edmonds59
2010-05-28 14:33:53

@edmonds59 - excellent action in a sad situation.


mick
2010-05-28 14:50:42

I'm not one to advocate lawsuits – but that's what needs to happen in these kinds of cases. As with most things in our society, follow the money to get something done. More and bigger lawsuits resulting from cyclists injured or killed -> more insurance companies having to pay out -> more pressure on lawmakers to increase penalties for hitting cyclists (or simply to enforce the laws that are there, and REALLY treat cyclists as legitimate vehicles).


Of course public outcry can't hurt. A ghost bike is an excellent idea – most people out here have never seen one.


It's not up on the website yet, but Bicycle Times #6 has an article about why drivers who injure/kill cyclists are usually not charged or even cited – "Incivility: How Lawyers and Legislators De-Valued Your Life." Essentially, the courts have let it remain a civil matter rather than criminal. Of course, this means that survivors without the means to hire lawyers won't have the same chance at "justice."


kbrooks
2010-05-28 15:14:07

I'm starting to feel like collisions involving cyclists are looked at as collateral damage, a necessary evil in maintaining the status quo of car-centric culture.


eric
2010-05-28 15:15:42

i agree, and although it hurts a hell of a lot more when it's a cyclist, i think all traffic deaths are treated lightly. it's one of the top killers of teenagers, yet people are still allowed to drive with cell phones.


if in every news story about someone dying on the roads you replace killed by vehicle with killed by flu, people would be freaking out and there would be mad campaigns to prevent any more deaths.


erok
2010-05-28 15:30:28

it is amazing how casually we accept traffic deaths, isn't it? i mean, this has caused more deaths in our society than pretty much anything, and everyone still feels safe and cheery about driving. so much uproar is caused over one crazy, outlandishly improbable incident (i remember reading an article recently about how the shape of hot dogs should change because it presents a choking hazard), yet no one bats an eye at 40,000 people dead each year in auto accidents. it's like we're all taking crazy pills.


hiddenvariable
2010-05-28 15:37:47

Yep, exactly. We tolerate car-related deaths as a "cost of doing business."


kbrooks
2010-05-28 15:38:50

13 times a day, a car kills a pedestrian. That's almost 1/3 the number of people killed by guns, but apparently it's not really a problem.


salty
2010-05-28 15:45:24

Once clipped by a car turning right which had not fully passed me, I was bitched out by the police officer for trying to pass the car (!) on the right. The driver told him that she passed me before turning. In the report, her story was gospel, I was undependable reporter so my view was not even recorded.


I went up and across the rear end of the car as it went from parallel to perpendicular to the road and my direction of travel. My flat bar carved a notch down the fender then up onto and across the trunk lid. Yeah, I was passing her and she was fully past me.


Police get zero training on car vs bike accidents and if no emphasis on the priority of the rights of cyclists (like pedestrians in Oakland), so every event such as this recent one will be a case of first impression for the police officer. If they blow it or fail to use all the resources to assess the situation before submitting their report or talking to the press, better outcomes would ensue.


Still not enough to resuscitate a dead cyclist.


ascpgh
2010-05-28 16:24:34

I always thought I would get hit by some moron trying to pass me going down a hill with tight turns, but now I need to watch out for people running me over going UP a hill?


Berm comment in the article was total bullshit. Besides the fact that we're not legally obligated to ride on berms, 75% of rural "berms" have so much crap in them, (branches, grasses, trash, etc) you can't even ride in them.


I wonder if the guy would have been less likely hit in the middle of the lane rather than off to the side and potentially further out of the driver's limited and distracted peripheral vision.


And to agree with others, what's up with these lax laws? Driving a fast as hell one ton metal box is a big fucking responsibility. If you're texting or doing whatever distracts you, you're not really taking that responsibility seriously and somebody dies as a result. How about at that point saying "Hey sorry, if you can't concentrate on what's in front of you when you're diving, you're not fit to drive, we're taking away your license for a long time"


I wonder what would happen if a bike cop was killed by a driver. And whatever happened to that hit and run guy from last year? Just a slap on the wrist or what?


sgtjonson
2010-05-28 16:58:11

Pierce, I actually spent a few hours yesterday trying to figure out what happened to Timothy Kish. As far as I can tell, he is free on bond--most likely back on the road.


It confuses me-- you get caught DUI you are pretty much guaranteed to lose your license. However, you kill someone with your car, you get off with nothing?


Seems to be further proof that cops are desensitized, heartless, and ignorant of the law.


ndromb
2010-05-28 17:21:28

Does anyone have any experience with video, or have any idea what it would take to produce something like a PSA?

Everyone seems to have an accident story. I could envision starting to assemble video interviews with anyone we could find, talking about the circumstances of the accident, the outcome, police responses. Edit it up into clips and bang them together. I think the sheer number of stories juxtaposed with the similarity of the circumstances would make a strong story, and get it aired out there, instead of just "duh, watch out for cyclists, o.k.".


edmonds59
2010-05-28 17:23:11

edmonds, Last year there was a group of guys that started a web-doc on cycling in Pittsburgh with a large focus on the ghost bike that we launched last year.


I am going to be contacting them about this most recent killing. If they re willing to do more interviews, I will let you know.


Here is the trailer:

http://vimeo.com/6549014


ndromb
2010-05-28 17:31:06

Seems to be further proof that cops are desensitized, heartless, and ignorant of the law.


Some are, sure.


However, I suspect the problems lie more with those who choose whether or not to prosecute, rather than the flatfoot on the street. As far as I know, Officer (Un)Friendly doesn't get to make the call as to what Cap'n Distraction gets charged with, when it comes down to a fatality.


reddan
2010-05-28 17:32:32

The way I see it, if you aren't part of the solution, you are part of the problem. I think the problems with law enforcement are rooted in the fact that no one stands for anything--they really can't without worrying about losing their job.


I think if the officer on the scene knew more about the law, the fact that he was on the edge of the lane and not the shoulder, wouldn't even be mentioned--it simply doesn't matter.


You are right though, it's not all cops, but it is enough of them to cause a problem throughout.


ndromb
2010-05-28 17:36:31

Edmonds, this is completely fine. Thanks for doing it. We're going to be interviewed by Mary Robb this afternoon and expect to see something on the evening news.


scott
2010-05-28 17:48:13

Excellent. Invite Mary Robb out on a group ride.


edmonds59
2010-05-28 18:04:25

@Scott: Great... as you can see from everyone thoughts, sadness, anger, concerns in here; this accident/situation has really touched a nerve in the community. I know that you will probably won't get much time to fully express all that is in here, but please DO emphasize that accidents/situations like this should not be brushed away lightly, and with such -disrespect- for human life, as this is shaping out to be.


Seriously, everytime I think about this accident I feel sick in my stomach...


bikeygirl
2010-05-28 18:07:43

Scott, if you talk to Mary Robb, try to find out what church he was active in. It would be good to invite his minister to the (location of) the ride of silence. Bring the power.


edmonds59
2010-05-28 18:21:55

One of my coworkers is active in the same church. I'll try to get in touch with him for details.


reddan
2010-05-28 18:30:33

this is incredibly disturbing to me. i was just the other day thinking that in order to be comfortable riding in traffic, you simply have to trust that a car won't run you over from behind. you can't make sure you get out of the way of every car.


that trust was violated, and it turns the world upside down. it's like walking down a crowded city street and having some random person push you out into traffic. you can't live your life as though that's a possibility. and then you get the occasional reminder that it is, indeed, possible.


everyone of us can imagine being in his place. and we'd be just as powerless to avoid the same fate.


hiddenvariable
2010-05-28 18:45:18

Trying not to be hyperbolic, I don't know, I'm getting a feeling. This guy, Don Parker, who nobody ever heard of before yesterday, needs to be cycling's Rosa Parks. It's time, everybody's sick, and done with this, everybody just needs to stand the freaking line.


edmonds59
2010-05-28 18:47:31

erok said, "if in every news story about someone dying on the roads you replace killed by vehicle with killed by flu, people would be freaking out and there would be mad campaigns to prevent any more deaths."


crucial post.


spinballer
2010-05-28 18:58:20

Cops are more than happy to issue tickets for speeding, rolling a stop sign, etc when no accident has occurred. Of course you are violating the law and hopefully these measures are preventing accidents. But here is a case where an accident has occurred, with as far as I can tell no extenuating circumstances, and no law was broke? It’s just deemed an accident. You are responsible for the safe operation of your vehicle period, this was reckless or careless driving at the least (which ever is the lesser charge, see other post). I think an investigation would show excess speed and a cell phone were involved. Seriously bikers are treated like road kill. It's making rails to trails look better and better.


bikedude
2010-05-28 19:06:46

The more I read this thread, the more I want to have everyone NOT on the Bike-Pgh messageboard read this thread.


stuinmccandless
2010-05-28 19:12:43

what bikedude said


spinballer
2010-05-28 19:29:50

"Berm comment in the article was total bullshit. Besides the fact that we're not legally obligated to ride on berms, 75% of rural "berms" have so much crap in them, (branches, grasses, trash, etc) you can't even ride in them. "


And up around that area, most of them have rumble strips ground into them.


lyle
2010-05-28 22:56:40

I was riding right by there the night before the accident. This is an absolute tragedy. Drivers around here have no respect for cyclists. Other areas where I ride have hotlines. If a driver harasses or drives dangerously near a cyclist the cyclist calls the hotline and the driver is cited.


djrbikes
2010-05-28 23:38:33

I'm sure the truck driver is feeling very badly about hitting and killing Don Parker, but from everything I have heard and read about the incident it was not an accident. The weather was good, the sight lines along Harts Run Road, even on the curves, are good and the cyclist was riding legally and properly.


If the truck driver is not charged, it will send totally the wrong message to a sizable number of drivers who think bicycles have no business on the road.


I totally support some sort of a memorial at the place where this trajedy ocurred.


timkirby
2010-05-29 02:42:32

Lyle- Exactly.


Scott- She's a damn fine lady and I was very impressed with her coverage of the story.


=


Out of eight straight years of daily watching this guy bike to work and I want to testify to the fact that he was the most visible, safest biker I ever had the pleasure of meeting. Never once did I see Don take the lane over sticking to the right side of the road.


It's the driver's fault. Period.


riotofcolor
2010-05-29 13:37:55

Nice job on the tv guys.


edmonds59
2010-05-29 16:04:17

I don't like being cynical, but here's what's on the front of today's P-G Living section.


http://post-gazette.com/pg/10149/1061569-62.stm


(edit: Sorry, wrong choice of words. I'm not cynical and neither are you. Cynicism leads to despair. Anger leads to productive action.)


nfranzen
2010-05-29 17:40:14

Crafton police had recovered pieces of a blue vehicle at the accident scene. On TV, police and CSI's get instant results. In the real world, it took three months to get results from the crime lab to match the pieces to the dark blue Dodge Caravan parked in Mr. Bainbridge's driveway.


Read more: http://post-gazette.com/pg/10149/1061569-62.stm#ixzz0pLJ7I0To


That's a lot of work! Good thing we value the life of our pets. I'd hate to think that our country doesn't serve justice for all...


sloaps
2010-05-29 18:02:25

The article is kind of warped towards the pet angle, but to be fair, Bainbridge did run down a human pedestrian as well.


lyle
2010-05-29 18:39:24

So far nothing has been stated regarding the driver who killed Don Parker.


Clear from this ought to be that if you hit a cyclist your future ought to be as permanantly affected as the person you hit.


Punishment for criminal offenses is supposed to stand as a deterrent to the behavior being addressed; hitting people with your vehicle is the primary negative behavior to address (people in other cars have a chance). Not enough deterrence this weekend.


I'm not talking night sweats and short lived self-doubt, I mean permanent record and indelible obligations.


You just killed a guy, what makes you worth going on and enjoying you life's dreams now free of the burdens you just imposed on his family?


Punishment is not the objective, making drivers aware that their car is no escape pod from reality. If your life stinks, driving offers no force field form the responsibilities you bear for wielding it. Gun laws demonstrate this concept much more clearly despite vehicles having produced much more death.


ascpgh
2010-05-30 10:22:33

he was the most visible, safest biker I ever had the pleasure of meeting. Never once did I see Don take the lane over sticking to the right side of the road.


Hey, Riotof? I don't want to hijack this thread, but this comment makes me think you might be misunderstanding the reason that cyclists "take the lane." If you're still hanging around, let's create a new thread for that discussion...


lyle
2010-05-30 23:11:48

Ok, the ghost bike is placed, the ride of silence has been done, when do we find out what charges are going to be filed against the driver? There has been a deafening silence on that front. And if the answer is "none", i have a serious problem with that. I don't care who it was or how it may impact their life, there needs to be punishment, and their drivers license needs to go away FOREVER.


edmonds59
2010-05-31 18:23:59

Sometimes it takes months before an investigation is done and charges are filed.


scott
2010-05-31 21:11:20

If I rear ended someone in a car with my car and killed somebody, I don't think it would take months to investigate.


sarah_q
2010-06-01 01:26:20

@asc.pgh your response is especially poignant. I hope answers are found in the short term.


dmtroyer
2010-06-01 05:44:42

@quizbot I'm finding this article especially moving.


He was riding his bike to get to work and help him prepare for the annual multiple sclerosis benefit ride,? Wilder said. ?He always rode the same way. It took him an hour from his home. When he wasn't there when we arrived, we knew something was wrong.


jesus.


dmtroyer
2010-06-01 05:46:54

it also just struck me what it must take to be killed by being hit from a driver from behind. it is one thing to be killed in a head-on, it is another to be killed from being hit from behind where I would assume the driver of the vehicle would be in the process of an emergency braking when they made contact with the bicyclist.


dmtroyer
2010-06-01 05:48:39

On memorial day morning, in the brief time we were at the incident location, a couple dozen cars passed us, many easily going over the speed limit, flying up to the intersection and braking at the last minute, if at all. And this is at 8:00 fraking am. on a holiday morning. This road has apparently become a shortcut between route 8 and 28, and all the suburban "plans" that have been built up in this previously rural area. It's likely that the road system is completely unprepared for the development that has occurred, so in addition to "distraction" or whatever, I think suburban sprawl played a part in this man's death as well.


edmonds59
2010-06-01 11:39:09

I think it was when Marko and I were riding together that there was a guy who, after passing probably .25 miles of cyclists, yelled out his window for us to get off the effing road.


saltm513
2010-06-01 11:51:55

I think I saw that guy too, in a little p.o.s. 4 door, on the climb on the way back. He started to say something at me and then started to fade off. Maybe he could sense that at that point I would have slammed his head in his own car door.

BTW, salt, sorry for running into your back wheel on that climb, that was me, I was too close when you stalled.


edmonds59
2010-06-01 12:32:43

Last Monday when I was in Harrisburg there were a couple hundred motorcyclists at the Capitol making speeches in an attempt to raise awareness of them on the roads.


http://www.livefreeridealive.com/


Perhaps we should do the same sometime?


sloaps
2010-06-01 12:35:10

Last Monday when I was in Harrisburg there were a couple hundred motorcyclists at the Capitol making speeches in an attempt to raise awareness of them on the roads.

http://www.livefreeridealive.com/

Perhaps we should do the same sometime?


Unless I've very much mistaken, that's what this (relatively) new group is all about.


http://www.pawalksandbikes.org/


Bike-Pgh is a part of this I believe.


jeffinpgh
2010-06-01 12:49:41

I would assume the driver of the vehicle would be in the process of an emergency braking when they made contact with the bicyclist.


You would be mistaken :( I looked for skid marks on the road. There were none. Emergency braking requires first seeing the bicycle in front of you. That's hard to do when you're sending a text message.


lyle
2010-06-01 13:29:45

Agreed Lyle. In my mental construct of this thing, there was no last minute braking at all, he had to have been hit full speed, he was never even seen. On dry pavement, going up that hill, any braking at all would have reduced the car's speed instantly. And an experienced cyclist would have headed for the ditch.


edmonds59
2010-06-01 13:46:03

Who would be the political contacts out there? Local council, Representatives, etc? I think now in the aftermath would be the time for individuals to send letters to those people, with strong wording demanding that this case be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law, even that it be made a precedent. This situation is so clear cut, straight road, clear weather, experienced cyclist doing everything by the book. There are 0 extenuating circumstances. I think the non-cycling community out there would agree as well. And demand a public statement from the representatives regarding this, this can not be left only to the police.


edmonds59
2010-06-01 13:55:54

I’m glad I decided to get up early yesterday and participate in the Silent Ride. I was amazed at how many people showed up and even more amazed at how well the local media covered both the ride and Sunday nights placing of the ghost bike. I live in the southern end of the city, so I don’t usually ride up in the north hills. My first impression of the roads was that they were very nice compared to what I normally ride on (Freeport road being the extreme exception). The pavement is really smooth with freshly painted line markings and there was way more road shoulder than I experience on the southern roads. Don’s commute through the tree covered ravines was beautiful and I’m sure he enjoyed logging all those miles on his bike.


However - While riding along in a group of eighty or so riders on a holiday Sunday morning I saw SEVERAL dangerous acts by motorists. The most egregious was a woman in a tan jaguar sedan who sped past our group on the wrong side of the yellow line not more than a quarter mile from the accident site! Thankfully there wasn’t a car speeding down the other direction or lots of people could have been going to the hospital. Then there was the a-hole in a dark sedan with New York plates that just had to pass a small group of us going down hill even though we were going 24 MPH at the time. He then had to slam on his brakes when he approached the main body of our riders as we all caught up to each other. There was the jerk in the pickup truck who yelled get-the-F-off-the-road to us after passing a quarter mile long line of cyclist. There was the elderly couple who rode my wheel for more than a half mile because the driver was afraid to pass us even though we were all single file at that point and there was plenty of room to safely pass. My point is to say that it was sad to see how bad the drivers in this area are towards cyclist and I assume to other vehicles too. On a ride to commemorate a traffic death, some drivers simply do not care about others.


However part 2 – We did have a lot of cars giving us the positive-type honking of the horn as they drove by, as well as some motorist being very patient waiting for the group to pass to make left turns, etc. So maybe the world isn’t all bad. But please do your best to be seen and be safe. I don’t want to get up at 5 a.m. to do another commemorative ride.


marko82
2010-06-01 13:59:38

I saw a piece on the local news (forget which station) and the it showed a little of the vehicle. The damage made me wonder the same thing. The damage that I saw was on the passenger side of the windshield. It was completely busted in, but only at the extreme edge where the windshield starts curving around to meet the post between the windshield and the passenger door. (There might have been significant other damage to the car, of course.)


Glancing blow? Hard enough to kill a helmeted cyclist?


There must have been some serious speed involved for that kind of vehicle damage and personal injury.


swalfoort
2010-06-01 14:06:00

Unsubstantiated third-hand report (i.e., I have no link nor proof) is that the kid who was driving was not texting, but had somehow gotten his %^&*ing flip-flop (!!!) caught on the accelerator. He bent down to free it, and that's when he hit Don.


Dunno if it's true (and it excuses nothing), but would certainly explain why there was no braking.


reddan
2010-06-01 14:31:19

I believe the next best step is for concerned individuals to write personal letters demanding action, to as many of these people as possible, political pressure.


Political Representatives for Indiana Twp area;

Local municipality, Indiana Township:


MAYOR JEFFREY D. PECK (R), District 2

412-512-4504

DEPUTY MAYOR DANIEL TAYLOR (R), District 4

412-486-0109

M. Bart Buckley (R), District 1

412-767-5446

George E. Dull, Jr. (R), District 5

412-963-7340

Darrin J. Krally (R), District 3

412-828-6881


All at -

3710 Saxonburg Blvd.

Pittsburgh , PA 15238-1068


Allegheny County:

Dan Onorato

Allegheny County Courthouse

436 Grant Street Room 101

Pittsburgh, PA 15219

Phone: (412) 350-6500 Fax: (412) 350-6512


Pa State Representative, District 33:


Hon. Frank Dermody

1331 Freeport Road

Cheswick, PA 15024

(724) 274-4770

Fax: (724) 274-8814


Pa State Senate, District 38:


Jim Ferlo

3519 Butler Street

Pittsburgh, PA 15201

(412) 621-3006


edmonds59
2010-06-01 14:51:56

Hey Marko, I'm going to offer an alternative interpretation of a couple of these.


The most egregious was a woman in a tan jaguar sedan who sped past our group on the wrong side of the yellow line not more than a quarter mile from the accident site!


I don't recall seeing this, so I can't say how dangerous this was, but I am generally pretty happy when motorists change lanes completely while passing. Doing it fast just minimizes the amount of time they're out there in the oncoming lane.


It's best if they don't have to stay out there for an unduly long time, which is why I encourage group rides to leave a substantial gap between every six riders, so that motorists can pass and then insert themselves back into the proper lane safely. Yesterday's ride was a special case, though.


There was the elderly couple who rode my wheel for more than a half mile because the driver was afraid to pass us even though we were all single file at that point and there was plenty of room to safely pass.


Afraid? Or just patient? Maybe even supportive of our purpose. Sitting there and not honking is pretty positive...


I think you were with the group that missed the turn onto browns hill rd, weren't you? Maybe that's why I don't remember the tan jag.


lyle
2010-06-01 15:34:05

Last Monday when I was in Harrisburg there were a couple hundred motorcyclists at the Capitol making speeches in an attempt to raise awareness of them on the roads.

We just got back from the second annual PA Bike Summit, which was exactly that. there was a rally on the steps of the cap, several supportive PA Reps and Senators gave speeches, then we went inside and had meeting with our reps to talk about these issues. there is currently a bill going thru about distracted driving as well as one about a 4-ft passing law that we went in to talk to them about.


erok
2010-06-01 15:54:01

@Lyle: I think when you hear a car gun past you, you assume that the driver is pissed, rather than just getting out of the way. Same with a driver sitting on your wheel. I agree with you, though--I'd rather a driver do one of those things rather than brush me (or worse).


bjanaszek
2010-06-01 16:13:10

The tan jag inserted itself into a gap towards the back of the pack as we rode up Hart's Run towards the ghost bike.


eric
2010-06-01 16:21:23

@edmonds, no problem, sorry about the stall! be sure to introduce yourself next time! looking forward to meeting you.


saltm513
2010-06-01 17:14:41

We just got back from the second annual PA Bike Summit, which was exactly that.


@erok That was this past May 4, right???


I was wicked busy with the ASCE Report Card (shameless plug) - bike summit slipped through the cracks...


sloaps
2010-06-01 17:19:48

No Lyle, I think my interpretation is accurate. The tan Jag passed at least twenty bikes in the lane (about a dozen car lengths or more). She had NO place to go if a car was coming from the other direction! She put herself and numerous cyclists in danger. Unfortunately this was not me not knowing the difference between a safe act and an unsafe one, and several of us commented on it at the time. And the elderly guy was white-knuckled scared. He had a death grip on the wheel and was intensely staring straight ahead despite my attempts to make eye contact. Since we were only going about 10MPH while he was behind/beside me I didn’t feel what he was doing was particularly unsafe, I just wanted to mention it because scared drivers are usually not good drivers.


marko82
2010-06-01 17:41:48

the jaguar came off of mallard, which is off of harts run right where we rode up, and was doing 50 past us toward dorseyville. i remember thinking "there's an idiot who's trying to get us killed", but i don't remember the specifics of why i felt like that, other than we were taking the whole lane, and she was going considerably faster than was safe.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-01 17:43:13

Yea, the jag pulled out of some fancy gated community looking place. Turned left into a gap in the cyclists and tried to pass multiple times. What I don't get is why this person didn't turn right, and go a different way, or just wait until the cyclists have passed.


dwillen
2010-06-01 18:00:45

Ah. I was at the back riding with the guy who got knocked down and hurt, so that's why I missed the jag.


lyle
2010-06-01 18:29:59

@Lyle: who was hurt? What happened?


(Jaguar driven by woman: jag-hag?)


reddan
2010-06-01 18:43:56

I thought I saw a few riders picking themselves up off the ground at the intersection of Dorseyville and Brownshill. I was pretty far back, and everyone was riding by the time I got there, so I figured no one got hurt.


eric
2010-06-01 18:54:12

I was about 100 yds back, but it looked like it was a riding-too-slow-couldn't-unclip-tipover, wasn't it?

I almost did the same but got unclipped with about 60 degrees left before the ground.


edmonds59
2010-06-01 19:17:20

Man... I was so concentrated in riding my bike, I didn't notice the other 'happenings' during the ride, although I do remember seeing the jaguar.


It would have been nice to put bikepgh/forum names from here, with faces during the ride. I was wearing an orange helmet, and was also the person whose derailer & chain got screwy during the beginning of the ride, although after that things went without a glitch with it.


It was nice to participate on this, and to see everyone there showing their support :)


AND nice to meet Dwillen and Stef finally too :)


bikeygirl
2010-06-01 19:46:29

Bikeygirl, I was the guy in neon yellow (which I seem to wear alot) who helped escort Stef back to the car.


marko82
2010-06-01 20:42:20

At the intersection of Squaw Run and Old Mill, the road turns up hill. Several riders were unprepared for the uphill, found themselves in too high a gear, and painted themselves into a corner. (holding, when they really should have folded). One of them fell over ("stumbled", her friend said -- she didn't actually hit the road, and she was just using plain old platform pedals) and bumped into someone else down which started a domino cascade. The guy on the bottom of the pile said that someone's helmet or bicycle landed on his hip. Not too serious, but it slowed him down.


By the time I got to Brownshill rd, everybody else was long gone, so I missed that one.


lyle
2010-06-01 21:17:26

the fella who pulled a horizontal track stand on dorseyville at browns hill wasn't prepared to stop and the car in front of us slammed on its brakes, so he fell into me. he was fine, though, he said.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-01 23:24:10

i didn't hear the guy yelling to get the eff out of the road. i don't ride in groups often and was hanging in the back at the beginning, as to try to avoid a collision with anyone else. i have a hard time maintaining a steady pace on a geared bike let alone a single speed.


so does anyone know the extent to which the driver's manual talks about passing bikes on the road? it was about 13 years ago that i was studying for my driver's exam.


stefb
2010-06-02 00:28:18

Hey now, I think I was that girl that stumbled on platform pedals, but I'm reasonably certain I didn't start a domino cascade! :(


nochasingiguanas
2010-06-02 01:12:51

Since I grew up in the area and spend my weekend there, I was able to find a bit of "word of mouth" info about the driver. Keep in mind that I do not guarantee the validity of this info.


Rumor has it that the driver was a student at Fox Chapel Area High School around the age of 17. Do not know of the gender. I have also heard that the situation may have been exacerbated by the driver wearing sandals and that the thong got somehow caught in the accelerator pedal (Mistake #1). The incident occurred at 7:11am and the high school's first and second bells occur at 7:25 and 7:30, respectively, I know this as I graduated there. Starting from this area of Harts Run this would give the driver roughly 15 minutes to drive, park, and get to class. Anyone familiar with the roads in the area and how to get to Fox Chapel Area High School will know that in order to do this, one would have to drive pretty consistently OVER the speed limit (Mistake #2).


The most glaring issue with the incident however is the location. Harts Run Road has several winding, narrow sections between Saxonburg Blvd and Route 8, but the shorter segment between Saxonburg and Dorseyville Road, while still pretty narrow, has GOOD sight lines. The incident also occurred only several hundred feet short of a T-intersection/stop sign. Most people would be naturally deccelerating in this area regardless of what is in the road. All three other people in my immediate family who have driven the road innumerable times all seem to be in disbelief as to the location of this incident. Anyone in this location on the roadway SHOULD be looking up for the cars coming to a stop at the intersection and cars pulling out of the Citgo/Jack's Pizza (Mistake #3) The lack of any skid marks at the site says to me that driver likely did not see the cyclist whatsoever.


There may have additionally been "shadow tricks" involved due to it occurred soon after sunrise. After checking out the scene personally, the sun could have easily been rising up over the hill in the driver's eyes. Presumably this would have silhouetted the rider, and his shadow may have been confused by the driver in a passing glance as the shadow of a telephone pole or something. If this were the case, the driver should have been paying more attention regardless of his/her footwear issues (Mistake #4).


So in a nutshell, teenage driver, running late for school thus speeding, driving carelessly by wearing sandals and getting caught in pedals, and occurring at a time where the sunlight may have been blinding or fooling the driver. Yeah sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.


So for everyone who has been wondering about the dearth of info about the driver, it's likely due to the sensitivity in this case of a high school student aged driver. I do not condone this for it's sake, but I'm passing on the info I know, and this appears to be the situation.


impala26
2010-06-02 01:49:49

Impala, not sure if this changes your views about this at all, but the ghost bike is uphill from the actual crash site. I understand the crash site to be closer to Mallard Drive.


eric
2010-06-02 02:12:01

Interesting post, Nick.


(Also, nice seeing you today, but why weren't you riding?)


ndromb
2010-06-02 02:33:08

@Eric: Oh, I knew that the accident didn't occur at the ghost bike site, but I did not know that it occurred as far down the hill as to be closer to Mallard Dr. (entrance to housing plan) than Dorseyville Road. I assumed it was along the straight uphill stretch getting close to Dorseyville. Either way, my point still stands in that the stretch of Harts Run has pretty good sight lines and the road is in good condition, especially compared to stretches of the same road closer to Middle Road and Route 8. I rode from my old Indiana Township home on Sunday night to the ghost bike dedication along an absolute crazy stretch of Dorseyville Road. Bad enough that, when this tragedy gets thrown away, I would say would be potentially MORE unsafe than riding on Harts Run Road.


It's my personal opinion that the speeds and nature of the roads in Indiana Township warrant better shoulders to accommodate for bicyclists, and I hope this tragedy can help to make improvements like that a reality there and elsewhere in the county and region. Saxonburg Blvd. could be potentially a great bike route, but currently it's much worse than it COULD be because of the fairly narrow shoulders and presence of bike-devastating rumble strips.


@ndromb: I was just messing around this afternoon at the Waterfront. I actually rode DOWN, and you could have seen my bike on the bus' bike rack. I hate riding up the Homestead bridge and Browns Hill Road, and I have made a motion to be polite and NOT use the Sandcastle/train tracks shortcut to the South Side Trail until it's "officially" complete.


impala26
2010-06-02 03:28:55

If someone is speeding, bending over, and trying to fish a sandal from under his/her accelerator, no shoulder in the world is wide enough.


Fix the drivers.


lyle
2010-06-02 12:00:59

Glad someone finally gave driver details. Understand the kid (a junior at FCAHS) is devastated. Don't think he has been back to school yet.


Original report said speed was not a factor. I think kid should receive some type of punishment (ticket/license revoked for a while), but also bothersome was the way the police and press so cavalierly wrote off the incident, almost blaming the cyclist.


This kid clearly did not see the rider and has to live with what he did for the rest of his life. I have a son the same age at FCAHS and something like this could happen to a lot of kids his age, since 17yr old boys are, by definition, distracted.


More disturbing is the account of the drivers who did see the riders during the ghost ride and had total disregard for their safety or rights.


novicebiker
2010-06-02 21:30:19

"Last Monday when I was in Harrisburg there were a couple hundred motorcyclists at the Capitol making speeches in an attempt to raise awareness of them on the roads.

http://www.livefreeridealive.com/

Perhaps we should do the same sometime?"


Just so you know, they've been doing that for like 20 years and hired professional lobbyists (my late father) and eventually got organized enough to do their own in-house lobbying.


So as organized cyclists, I think we're behind a little bit.


sgtjonson
2010-06-02 21:31:10

I am not sure about the "ride alive" message. That seems to be nothing more than prejudice against zombies.


lyle
2010-06-02 23:10:39

something like this could happen to a lot of kids his age, since 17yr old boys are, by definition, distracted.


JESUS FUCKING CHRIST NOBODY THAT AGE NEEDS TO BE DRIVING AT ALL!


I have a huge problem with the extremely low driving age in this backwards country. Sorry for yelling.


joeframbach
2010-06-03 00:06:14

Exactly. It is too easy for kids to drive. The driving age is too young, the test is a joke, driving to school should not be permitted, kids should not be able to afford the gas and their parents should not fork out the insurance. If the school bus/foot/bike were the only options, uncool wouldn't be a concern.


My experience in Europe is that hardly anyone under 21 owns a car, there is NO parking at school for student vehicles, and almost every college student gets around by bike or public transport. Young adults use bike+bus/train until they can afford their own car, so most of the driving population has at some time been on a bike on the road. I'm not saying there are no accidents over there, but there are way more cyclists, and when drivers wise up to bikes on the street being a normal thing, bikelife gets safer.


I also think that raising the driving age would protect the kids from themselves and their friends. I know how inconvenient it would be for their parents but it's worth it.


naomi
2010-06-03 01:30:35

novicebiker, if your son is distracted (by definition), be responsible parent and make sure he isn't on the road.


Personally, I don't care how devastated the kid is. He KILLED SOMEONE, and it is HIS FAULT.


I can't lose focus on the fact that he killed someone because of negligently operating a motor vehicle. It was his choice to do whatever he did that made his distracted enough to hit someone. If you are old enough to operate a motor vehicle, you are old enough to deal with the repercussions of irresponsible, negligent, and dangerous use of said vehicle.


ndromb
2010-06-03 02:14:30

+1 ndromb


I have a son the same age at FCAHS and something like this could happen to a lot of kids his age


I think that's an extremely poor choice of words. Nothing "happened to" the driver (whose age is completely irrelevant). He/she killed someone - it wasn't something that just "happened".


salty
2010-06-03 02:23:42

On one hand there are teenagers being killed, and killing, operating vehicles because the structure of their environment provides no options, un-walkable, un-bikable, no public transit. People have fled cities for the mythological safety of suburbs, in complete denial of the actual costs of the choice.

On the other hand there are kids the same age in the city lashing out at people randomly because they feel like they are stuck, they have no future, no options, and no real reason not to.

These incidents are two sides of the same coin, a screwed-up society driven more by the acumulation of wealth and stuff than by any concern for other humans.


edmonds59
2010-06-03 02:41:21

nothing is ever anyone's fault. we have failed to teach accountability for one's actions to an entire generation.


cburch
2010-06-03 02:41:28

FCAHS student. Driving to school, possibly late. Stuck flip-flop?


Shouldn't this kid have been on a bus?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-06-03 02:51:31

@Joe +100!!


Yes.. age doesn't change anything!!! Yes, teenagers they are young and have their life ahead of them.... but 'just' because they got distracted and 'something happened' that caused the death of another human being, they should ONLY get a ticket annd lose their license????? That's preposterous!!! What kind of message does that send to them, or to other young adults?????


Also... More disturbing is the account of the drivers who did see the riders during the ghost ride and had total disregard for their safety or rights.


PLEASE!!! You know why ---probably--- these older-mature people disregard the cyclists and their selves in the road while driving? Because they have gotten away with shit like this since they were teenagers, because of too much leniency and lax laws.


Please understand... while I think that this tragedy wasn't on-purpose, and was ---by lax definition--- an accident; this young person should still be held accountable for his mistake. I don't think that he should be in jail for the rest of his life or anything like that, but ---seriously--- just a freaking ticket and lose their license??? Come on!!


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 03:19:21

+1 for the anger. We have every right to be pissed off.


quizbot
2010-06-03 03:28:14

I wonder sometimes what ever became of the girl who mowed down the North Allegheny bus driver on the hill going up into Wexford back in March 1993. A roadside memorial has been maintained at the entrance to the storage facility, just down the hill from where the driver's bus broke down that morning. She and another girl were commuting to NASH that morning, as did hundreds of other students, and who continue to do so to this day. She'd be about 35 now.


stuinmccandless
2010-06-03 03:32:36

Unfortunately, I don't think PA is going to change the minimum driving age to 18 any time soon.


And when did I say the kid shouldn't be held responsible? But what, exactly, do you want them to do to a minor besides take away his license for a year or so?


The bigger picture is what can be done to make the roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians? I personally am in favor of only allowing hands-free calls even though it doesn't appear cell phone use was a factor in the accident.


Oh, and to the classy guy who swore and called this a backwards company...you are free to leave whenever you want.


novicebiker
2010-06-03 03:34:35

Sorry, typo. Should read..."called this a backwards country"


novicebiker
2010-06-03 03:37:08

@novicebiker "...The bigger picture is what can be done to make the roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians?..."


Well... I think it is very obvious in this situation that a KEY thing to do in order to make roads safer for cyclists and pedestrians, is to better ---educate--- drivers, to hold them --accountable-- for their reckless driving, regardless of age, regardless of them ---freaking--- looking for a flip-flop, speeding, texting, being distracted, having road-rage, etc.... it is 'tough love' what is needed in here, and unfortunately tough love in this case is not only having stricter laws for all people driving vehicles (be car, motorcycle, bycicle); but to also have stricter punishments for those individuals who engage in reckless driving conditions.


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 03:57:35

Public trans needs to be encouraged more in general. I do wish our country's infrastructure was better set up for this, like in Europe where there are just so many more options for transportation, and hubs for points of connect. In America, you see tons of land and then a random house. In Germany, for instance, there is expansive land then town cluster, etc.. You can take the train from town to town, and get around within those towns just fine on foot, cycle, (sidewalks and bike paths!) or bus.


As for distracted driving, as far as I can tell it effects all ages, and unfortunately isn't something society appears to grow out of.


saltm513
2010-06-03 04:21:48

Just because its was allegedly a 17-year-old driving makes the driver no less accountable. We should let him/her off the hook because all 17-year-olds are distracted/bad drivers? This makes no sense, even though I'm sure that is what will happen.


All drunks are bad drivers too, but we tend not to let them off the hook when they run someone down.


dwillen
2010-06-03 04:37:30

so i am still fuming over this - i was at work yesterday (in a local OR) and everyone was chatting about their weekends. I mentioned that i attended a ride of silence for don. the idiot scrub tech spoke up and said, "he shouldn't have been on the road." i replied that cyclists have a right to be on the road. he followed with, "no, bikes should be on the sidewalks. it's always those guys in spandex on the road. when i see them i wanna ram them with my truck." i was speechless for a minute, sad and pissed, but i did inform him that those "guys in spandex" on the road is me, my husband, my friends. he brushed it off like what i said didn't make sense.


stefb
2010-06-03 09:39:45

bloggy, comparing the connectedness of seemingly unconnected stories: Don Parker, Port Authority, and BP.


stuinmccandless
2010-06-03 10:05:07

et, all.... sincere apologies if I seem to be over-exasperated over this issue -no offense to anyone.


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 13:18:45

Stef - That behavior is unbecoming of ANYONE on a hospital payroll. We brought attention to P&G's management regarding their road-raging employee. Are you in a position to make some real change here?


joeframbach
2010-06-03 13:40:30

I've been thinking that there's a real opportunity for driver education at the high school level.


The parking lots at FCHS are very large. That's a lot of teenage drivers that the high school (and other high schools) puts on the road every day. Given the statistics on teenage drivers, this tragedy is not an accident. Just from the numbers, you can pretty much guarantee that some high school student is going to kill someone.


The system is not innocent. I'd like to see Fox Chapel High School own this killing. What could they do? At least, insist on driver training programs before the students are allowed a parking permit. Make it a school-wide priority -- have the vice-principal to stand out at the front doors, greet the kids as they arrive, and quiz them on traffic laws (get it wrong, lose your parking permit).


nfranzen
2010-06-03 14:40:11

Stef, it sounds like you did well under the circumstances. You've planted in this guys mind a real human being in place of some strange "others" in spandex. He probably brushed it off because it didn't fit his rigid mental construct of reality. Also it may never have occurred to him that "those guys" might be a woman. Sounds like you stayed professional in the circumstances.

Another important indicator is his mention of the word "truck". Guys who drive trucks as every day vehicles who aren't in construction, landscaping, farming, etc, where you actually need a truck, I wonder about. Grasping at some machismo image bs, I think. I've driven trucks when i've had to, as vehicles, they suck.


edmonds59
2010-06-03 14:44:25

Even better, put drivers training back in the curriculum at FCAHS. I'm not sure when they eliminated the driving part, but the in-class portion was taken out a couple of years ago.


I think Dan Thompson's article in the PG said it best. "No one wants to be in the position of either of these two people involved in last week's accident. Don is dead and the driver is impacted forever knowing he or she accidentally killed another human being. Either result is tragic and irreversible"


Read more: http://post-gazette.com/pg/10154/1062736-110.stm#ixzz0pnmkpuR1


B


novicebiker
2010-06-03 14:56:19

@novicebiker: "And when did I say the kid shouldn't be held responsible? But what, exactly, do you want them to do to a minor besides take away his license for a year or so?"


A minor? You can't have it both ways. If a person is to be allowed to drive a vehicle that is clearly dangerous enough to KILL someone, then that person should be held to the highest standards.


As others have pointed out, drivers don't just wake up one day and decide to behave poorly. Good habits never develop, or they erode. By doing nothing in this case, the police send the message to every other driver that there is no legal consequence for RUNNING SOMEONE OVER and KILLING THEM.


I'm in complete agreement with your point that we should be considering what can and should be done to improve safety in general for cyclists and pedestrians. A key element of that is establishing consequences for violating principles of safe driving. For example, if that kid ran a red light in front of a cop, I bet he'd get ticketed. Violation, consequence. The reason there's a consequence is not that there's anything holy about a bunch of red LEDs; it's that running a red light creates an unsafe situation for both the driver and others approaching or in the intersection. What has me personally so enraged about this incident is that this is about as clear-cut a case of driver-failure as one can get, yet the police are doing nothing, sending a clear message to the rest of the world that it's okay to KILL someone on a bicycle.


jz
2010-06-03 14:58:34

If this 17 year old kid was waving a gun around and "accidentally" shot someone, would it matter if he was 17 or 18?


The way I see it, there is no difference--you are supposed to learn how to use both properly and understand the workings and the responsibility before possessing and handling one.


What makes an automobile any different?


My point is, if you want the privileged of operating a motor vehicle, you also take the responsibility--if you aren't old/mature enough for the responsibility, you aren't old/mature enough for the privileged.


(I am also pretty sure it is illegal to drive with open-toed shoes. If it isn't it is still stupid and irresponsible.)


ndromb
2010-06-03 15:19:37

In addition to the points regarding responsibility, I take issue with the idea that "having to live with what you've done" is sufficient punishment in any way.


There's a lot of people who have to live with what this kid has done, starting with a wife and three children. The kid's feelings, frankly, are utterly irrelevant in comparison.


I'm not interested in seeing the driver suffer for the sake of suffering...won't do any good. I want them to be publicly prosecuted for causing the death of another human being through negligence, so that others realize that "youth, inexperience, and inattention" ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE F*CKING EXCUSES.


Sorry for the rant.


reddan
2010-06-03 15:31:15

I agree completely there has to be consequences, such as a reckless driving ticket, which comes with an automatic 6 month license suspension. I keep reading people want him to be made responsible. What specifically are you suggesting?


In this country, minors are treated differently than adults because they are considered to be not mature enough to be making important decisions. And I don't think a light bulb goes off when they turn 18 and they suddenly know all the answers, but there has to be some cutoff point. So, should we have them behind the wheel of a car? That's a different discussion. But right now, they are legally allowed to.


About a month ago my husband was riding a mountain challenge course with a bike club in Blair Co, PA. Coming down the mt, a car driven by a 50ish guy turned left and hit the rider in front of my husband. The rider was killed at the scene. The driver's excuse? He didn't see the cyclist because the sun was in his eyes. To the best of my knowledge, no ticket was issued there.


So, maybe we need to start with the young drivers and educate them better about sharing the road. Unfortunately, it won't help with the millions of other drivers already out there.


novicebiker
2010-06-03 15:37:38

Specifically? I'm suggesting charging as an adult for criminally negligent homicide and/or vehicular manslaughter.


License suspension? Give me a break. That's not just a slap on the wrist; it's a slap in the face of Don's family.


I agree that education of the millions of drivers already out there is impractical. That's the very reason why penalties need to be harsh, regardless of the age of the perpetrator. Fear of repercussion is easier to instill than education, even if it is far less preferable.


reddan
2010-06-03 15:51:51

Specifically, I think it should be treated the same way it would be treated if the kid was a few months older and did something stupid and killed another motorist--vehicular manslaughter.


It is not like the vehicle had a malfunction (at least to my knowledge of the currently released information), or the cyclist popped out of no where--the driver was irresponsible, and that is what killed Donald Parker.


If you think the kid shouldn't be held accountable because he is a minor, should we prosecute the parents for not instilling appropriate and responsible habits when operating a motor vehicle?


To me, reckless driving would be is he ran a cyclist off the road and the cyclist was scraped up. Citing him with reckless driving, to me, is under valuing Donald Parker's life.


If he was street racing and killed someone in another car, what do you think he would be charged with?


ndromb
2010-06-03 15:53:37

(Nick, dude, I think we were just tuned into the same astral radio station.)


reddan
2010-06-03 15:55:17

novicebiker, you seem to suffer from the misthought that "the law is the law because it's the law". You probably also agree with the commercials that run on TV that say "don't smoke pot because you'll go to jail". Reason is thrown out of the window in favor of law.


So, should we have them behind the wheel of a car? That's a different discussion. But right now, they are legally allowed to.

No, it's not a different discussion. We're having it right now. I'd say 18 is perfectly reasonable.


License suspension? Give me a break. That's not just a slap on the wrist; it's a slap in the face of Don's family.

Absolutely. I'll push for charging as an adult.


joeframbach
2010-06-03 15:58:50

from novicebiker "...About a month ago my husband was riding a mountain challenge course with a bike club in Blair Co, PA. Coming down the mt, a car driven by a 50ish guy turned left and hit the rider in front of my husband. The rider was killed at the scene. The driver's excuse? He didn't see the cyclist because the sun was in his eyes. To the best of my knowledge, no ticket was issued there.


So, maybe we need to start with the young drivers and educate them better about sharing the road. Unfortunately, it won't help with the millions of other drivers already out there.


So.... back to square one... don't we need to BOTH educate and HOLD ACCOUNTABLE the driver, be it young or old?


Obviously what legal-law decision comes to this, it is up to the Courts and the legal system. But... once again, ONLY a reckless driving ticket/fine, and a 6-month suspension????? Someone died here!!! THAT"S NOT ENOUGH PUNITIVE ACTION OR DETERRENT FOR ANYONE TO IMPROVE RECKLESS BEHAVIOR!!! SPECIALLY A YOUNG PERSON!!!!


Now... as it is pointed about the case of the 50ish driver who just got away with a ticket after causing a cycling fatality... that is a BIG FAIL TO OUR LAWS right there. Now... how do we change drivers? How do we change laws that don't seem to protect cyclists in this case? Answer: To better educate at an early age all drivers, and once again --to take REAL disciplinary action-- to non-law (((or even just simple common-sense!!!!))) abiding citizens.


NOW... of course it has been talked about how, if we had better infrastructure, better roads, all of this could be avoided. Very true: we need better/efficient/affordable public transportation; better urban planning & control of urban sprawl. But... I can tell you.... for things like that to change and be effective, we are looking at years, or at least a dedicated-decade of transportation-transformation. So what do we do for now? Start at the real-root of the problem: be need to be better drivers, to better educate our youth, to have better protection/support from out laws, and to PROPERLY HOLD ACCOUNTABLE those individuals who are reckless in the road, not only to defend them from themselves, but those of us who are in the road as well, be cyclist or pedestrian...


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 16:07:08

(I hope that doesn't mean I'm going to get a bent.)


I also think we need to take a step back and stop putting so much blame on the system. What about the parents?


My parents made sure I understood how serious a responsibility driving was. I had to prove myself for the privilege to drive (which I hated since I bought my own car at 16 with money I earned slinging tacos starting freshman year). Stuff like talking on a phone, having a passenger, etc.. was strictly prohibited. If I was ever caught doing something irresponsible, I would lose the privilege (which I never did).


Now, I am not a parent (so most parents will disregard what I say), but I think your child is your responsibility. It is your job to teach him/her about accountability and responsibility--there are penalties to actions (accident or not). Therefore, it is your job to make sure he/she is capable of responsibly operating a motor vehicle before putting them in one.


That is how I was raised--you do something stupid, it's your fault, you have to deal with it.


Yes, I think it should be much harder (skills tests, extreme condition/emergency maneuver tests) to get a license, but it is much easier to start safe driving at home. Just because your kid can legally get a drivers license, don't mean you have to let them.


ndromb
2010-06-03 16:11:55

@ndromb: (No worries...'bents are for fat bearded white guys. You, uh, fail to qualify.)


Now, I am not a parent (so most parents will disregard what I say), but I think your child is your responsibility. It is your job to teach him/her about accountability and responsibility--there are penalties to actions (accident or not). Therefore, it is your job to make sure he/she is capable of responsibly operating a motor vehicle before putting them in one.


No argument from this parent.


reddan
2010-06-03 16:18:13

i'm starting to get fatigued from talking about what should happen to the driver. i honestly don't care about the specific consequences. i think the real slap in the face was when police (initially) said the matter was closed because drivers can do no wrong.


harsh punishment isn't a deterrent. traffic tickets are a deterrent, but it often takes more than one, and it requires that drivers believe they will be cited to work.


but that doesn't work in big catastrophic scenarios, because no one believes it will happen to them.


what do we want out of this? we want a fundamental change in the system. we don't want one person to suffer. or at least, i don't. we want the world at large to look at this and say "i shouldn't do that." since this is such an isolated incident, any penalty, small or large, isn't going to make that happen in this case. no driver will actually believe that they could possibly hit and kill someone, so no amount consequence, no matter how large, will cause anyone to believe they could face the same consequences. no amount of penalty will act as a deterrent in this case.


we need to look at other ways to create a bigger change. strike while the iron is hot, and so forth. i don't believe age is a reasonable factor in determining whether someone is mature enough to handle a vehicle. but i really do like the idea of requiring a lot more training and education, plus a long period of supervised driving, in order to obtain a license. this is something we should pursue in this state, and we should get everyone we can on board, from FCAHS, to bike pittsburgh, to everyone who has been or feels personally affected by this tragedy.


we should also pursue distracted driving regulations. no cell phone use, regardless of whether an earpiece is used. perhaps bigger fines and suspensions for young drivers who drive distractedly, since they're not as good at it and so we may instill that fear at an early age.


obviously we should and will also pursue better roads that encourage multiple safe uses. and we should bitchslap penn dot for suggesting the onus is on cyclists to improve their habits.


there is a lot we can do. i just see discussing what should happen to the driver in this instance as a distraction from all of that.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-03 16:19:13

i honestly don't care about the specific consequences. i think the real slap in the face was when police (initially) said the matter was closed because drivers can do no wrong.


This reminds of me something I've been meaning to ask but haven't:


Are there any citizen review boards in the Pittsburgh area, and if so are there any cyclists on them?


I know they were talking of instituting one when I moved away from Pittsburgh in 1999, but I've forgotten to check and see if it happened since i moved back.


myddrin
2010-06-03 16:33:34

@reddan:(so does that mean I am doomed to carrying 10000 boxes all tied up on undersized rusty single speed bicycle when I get old)


I also think we need to take a step back and stop putting so much blame on the system. What about the parents?


My parents made sure I understood how serious a responsibility driving was. I had to prove myself for the privilege to drive (which I hated since I bought my own car at 16 with money I earned slinging tacos starting freshman year). Stuff like talking on a phone, having a passenger, etc.. was strictly prohibited. If I was ever caught doing something irresponsible, I would lose the privilege (which I never did).


Again, I thing the solution (just like violence and obesity--which we also like to find scapegoats for) starts at home. The system has some effect, but it really comes down to parental responsibility.


Yes, we need education. Yes, we need enforcement. The thing is, all of that takes a lot of money for the government to do. All it takes is a little time from parents to do at home.


ndromb
2010-06-03 16:33:42

HiddenVariable: Wow, beautifully said. Intelligently written and you clearly see the bigger picture. I agree with everything you said, in particular.."there is a lot we can do. i just see discussing what should happen to the driver in this instance as a distraction from all of that."


You have my vote.


novicebiker
2010-06-03 16:43:59

i don't believe parents in this country think immature driving is a problem. my parents certainly took an active interest in my life, but driving (perhaps because i took a driver ed course) was mostly left to me. they were never in the car with me for more than a few hours.


requiring that young drivers jump through a few more hoops, such as putting in a certain number of supervised driving hours (even if it only requires the parents to sign for it) doesn't seem like it should cost anywhere near what it might be worth.


i think part of the problem, though, is despite how everyone loves to say that driving is a privilege and not a right, we have never treated it like that in this country. in fact, we treat it not just as a right, but as a rite.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-03 16:44:13

Yes, we need education. Yes, we need enforcement. The thing is, all of that takes a lot of money for the government to do. All it takes is a little time from parents to do at home.


let me just say that i do not disagree with you in the least. in this case, though, i see no reason to believe we can rely on parenting, and not because i think parents are irresponsible. i just think this is the best time for pushing for better cyclist-recognizing infrastructure and regulations.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-03 16:46:31

@Hidden Variable: You nailed it. This kid is symptomatic of the larger problem. Merely punishing him (her?) won't fix it.


And the fact of his (her?) age seems irrelevant - as evidenced by the many posts from the Ride of Silence, etc. What is relevant is the disregard of cyclists and disrespect of their rights on the roads we SHARE.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-06-03 16:50:48

i think part of the problem, though, is despite how everyone loves to say that driving is a privilege and not a right, we have never treated it like that in this country. in fact, we treat it not just as a right, but as a rite.


I completely agree.


However, what good is supervised driving if the supervisor is just as bad? As much as I think training and testing will help, I think much of the change needs to be with mindset.


I think people need to realize the destruction an automobile is capable of. I think it is a machine that should be understood before it can be operated.


I have spent most of my working life in the automotive industry (specialty retail and service) and I witness the problems with car-centric culture everyday (from a different side than most of the people on this board). Driving (and automobiles in general) is not taken seriously. We grow up with them, we use them, yet (most of us) know nothing about them.


If you focus on the culture surround the automobile, we get most of our basis for it from out parents.


ndromb
2010-06-03 16:53:01

i just think this is the best time for pushing for better cyclist-recognizing infrastructure and regulations.


I do too!


I just think a lot of the problems won't be solved just with infrastructure and regulation--government and law enforcement can only do so much. I think it is going to take contributions from multiple side--the biggest being parents.


ndromb
2010-06-03 16:57:13

"i think the real slap in the face was when police (initially) said the matter was closed because drivers can do no wrong."

When did the police ever say the matter was closed? The nearest I've read to that was the note in the original P-G article saying police hadn't yet filed charges. But that's hardly the same thing.


steven
2010-06-03 17:24:53

@novicebiker, you posted this:

"Oh, and to the classy guy who swore and called this a backwards country...you are free to leave whenever you want"


I hate to break the news friend, but most of us haven't been free to leave for quite some time. Primarily because nobody wants us.

Try going to any other country without having a specialized degree or being government issued and see what happens.


Some of us are free to leave. Most of us are not.


Not to mention how would I even get to the border if I couldn't even make it to the Pirates game?



spakbros
2010-06-03 17:33:09

Why do we have to fight so much? I just want to ride my bike!


joeframbach
2010-06-03 17:34:33

+1 what @joeframbach said


myddrin
2010-06-03 17:42:51

I have spent most of my working life in the automotive industry (specialty retail and service) and I witness the problems with car-centric culture everyday (from a different side than most of the people on this board). Driving (and automobiles in general) is not taken seriously. We grow up with them, we use them, yet (most of us) know nothing about them.


The head of the nail has been hit, methinks. Another way to look at it--for most of us, a tool like a jackhammer seems altogether frightening, yet there are people who use them every day, and don't think twice about it (until they cut off their toe).


Better enforcement of existing regulations could only help. If drivers suddenly realized they need to drive the posted speed (not 10 mph over), actually stop at stop signs, and actually pay attention at traffic signals, they may be more serious about driving in general. I'm not suggesting this is a cure-all, but it would go a long in helping (and, as an added bonus, the initial enforcement phase would fill the government coffers, too).


Oh, and if parents were faced with the reality of _actual_ enforcement of traffic regulations, perhaps they would be sure their kids are better drivers, too.


bjanaszek
2010-06-03 17:46:52

@all.... true, all very true: education starts at home, and parents are at the helm for that.


So... what to do now?


I've been trying to figure out --why-- I am so bent about this, and why I am struggling so much personally about the issues related to it: My anger and disappointment comes from both, Dan Parker's accident, and the artist (John Metzler) that was killed here in Pittsburgh from the U-Haul coming lose up in Washington Blvd. In Don's case, so far no charges have been filed. On Metzler's case, the driver (who improperly attached the uhaul to his truck), just got a couple of fines and tickets with no jail time. In both cases outstanding citizens and human beings lost their lives due to --really-- human error, bad roads, etc -all within a month.


IMHO, I feel like our laws are failing us in here. Because --for whatever reason these accidents/deaths happened-- at the end the law is not doing is part --as the 'parent' of society-- to try and correct these behaviors.


When 'novicebiker' cited that a cyclist got killed about a month ago where the driver was --also-- not properly persecuted and only got tickets and fines even though there was a death involved, it sounds like a red-alarm to me. I would hate that more --accidents-- like this will happen in the future, and once again, someone will cite "...well, awhile ago the same thing happened and the driver just got a fine..."


What kind of pattern is this? How many people need to die in senseless ways before real action is taken?


I just think that it has to stop, and that all 'parental' figures; be Mom & Dad for teenagers, or our Judicial System for adults, who need to do their jobs --now--


No more posts from me for awhile... but like I said, bottom line: I'm disappointed. And while there's no magic wand about what to do, we need to start somewhere --now--


Sorries


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 17:53:39

And yeah.... no more arguing from my part. I'm just going to ride my bike and hope that no reckless adult driver or easily distracted teenager runs me over & gets away with it...


peace


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 17:56:27

@bikeygirl: Riding your bike is always a good idea, and probably the single most productive thing any one of us can do. :)


reddan
2010-06-03 18:05:14

Ride, and do exactly what some have recently done, stefb, ilikebikes, stand up and speak out when there are opportunities, engage people as individual humans, face to face. Excellent examples.

Ooh, "engage, don't enrage". did someone say that?


edmonds59
2010-06-03 18:11:13

One thing (that I don't think has been mentioned, but I touched on at the lock-up) is we, as cyclists, need to voice our concerns to our loved ones. Sit down and have a serious talk about road safety and cyclists' rights with the people in your life.


I frequently try to engage people who make comments like, "I want to run them off the road." I try to make sure they understand that when you act dangerously around a cyclist, you are endangering their life, not just a metallic possession.


It usually isn't a comfortable conversation, but it is a necessary one.


ndromb
2010-06-03 18:24:24

EDIT::: I wasn't looking to 'enrage' anyone in here. And yes, I've been 'engaging' and educating people who know me and that I have the chance or opportunity to talk in person about this unfortunate situation -meaning I'm not just babbling away in this board.


Also, note... I had a brother who died after being run over by our school bus when he was only 5years old. At the time I was 4, and actually got to see the entire accident. In that case, the driver only got 5 years of jailtime.


SO.. yeah... I'm not expressing my views only as a cyclist, but as a person whose family has had to live through the aftermath of a 'reckless driving' episode. And I guess that if I've been expressing my views with so much passion, it is my way of engaging and trying to do my part.


So.. now fo' shizzle peace!!! ;)


bikeygirl
2010-06-03 18:35:53

bikeygirl- just to let you know, my comment was in no way directed towards you.


It's unfortunate that you and you family had to deal with that. I have never personally suffered a loss like that, but I have seen many families go through similar situations.


Keep doing what you are doing, and I hope to see you at the next FOC ride.


ndromb
2010-06-03 18:41:05

Well, here I am, parent of two driving-age children, and thus squarely in the crosshairs of this thread.


Child #1 is nearly 21. After burning through a year on a permit, he decided not to drive. Instead, he routinely clamps a bike to a 12A and can often be found heading to & from AiP on it. (whew!)


Child #2 is close to 17, and has 110 hours under her belt on a permit. She's clearly the target audience for this thread. And it's all up to me. The family reallyreallyreally could use for her to be driving, because, up here in NorthAlleghenyland, you just flippin' can't get life accomplished without an automobile. However, she has plenty of bicycle experience, including some on Perry Highway, and one bike-related ambulance ride. I think she's ready.


But: You bet your sweet bippy that this thread has been discussed, and will continue to be discussed at every opportunity.


(P.S. Really the plan is for her to get a motorcycle license. But that's an argument for another day.)


stuinmccandless
2010-06-03 20:44:43

colin always tells me that it's a fact that i WILL get hit while riding my bike on the road. i hope that it isn't true, but the number of red armbands (for those who were hit) at the ride of silence was frightening. now we are at a point where we may start a family soon. if i get pregnant, i may not ride for the duration of the pregnancy just because it's dangerous and i fear that i will get hit by a car. really frustrating.


also, i really don't want to work with that scrub tech again. i have no interest in interacting with him. while it is true that someone in the health care profession should not have that attitude, i don't think there's consequences for someone just being a crappy person.


stefb
2010-06-04 11:00:26

stefb, would you by any chance be allowed to wear one of the little fluorescent plastic bike pins that they have at the BikePgh office, at work? I love those things! I wear mine around (on one photo from the Flock of Cycles, on my pack). So every time this guy sees you he'll get that little confused feeling. They're fun AND irritating to bike haters!


edmonds59
2010-06-04 11:24:39

Stefb, nothing is for certain, but you can do a lot to improve your odds. I was hit 12 years ago, and then I took a class and realized that it was in large part my own fault -- riding too aggressively, trying to get out of the way of motorists behind me, and overtaking on the right in a single lane.


the unnerving thing about this incident is that there is almost nothing he could have done differently. But I take consolation in the fact that car/bike fatalities of experienced adult cyclists are still rare. This is the first that I recall since frank w. a decade ago -- though we still don't know what happened with R. Lin, so maybe it's the second.


lyle
2010-06-04 13:29:42

I just rode down Harts Run Rd today. The berm featured giant sewer grates, huge chunks of rock and other debris, and was most definitely not ride-able even if I wanted to ride there. Also the stop light was out at Saxonburg Blvd which added an extra degree of excitement.


Drivers are definitely not slowing down. How about a SHARE THE ROAD sign in honor of the person who was killed there. How do we go about asking for one of those?


sarah_q
2010-06-04 16:35:29

@Sarah - consider it requested.


swalfoort
2010-06-04 17:16:00

sweet! In both directions?


sarah_q
2010-06-04 17:48:29

What about one of those new fangled signs with the bike and car next to each other?


ndromb
2010-06-04 17:50:06

PennDOT reports that they will try to get out there next week to take a look at the site. We'll request signs in both directions.


@nick - um, maybe?


swalfoort
2010-06-04 19:23:26

+1 what Nick said about talking to loved ones.


When I came into work on tuesday this week and everyone was talking about their weekends, I made a point to mention what happened to Don and the memorial, which sparked several conversations about road safety and driver/cyclist concerns.


The guy I work with whose shop is right across from the ghost bike said people never obey the speed limit on that road, sometimes he has trouble just running across the street to the gas station - on foot, let alone traveling by bike.


robjdlc
2010-06-04 19:30:18

Isn't Hart's Run Road a county road?


It'd be better to assess the traffic conditions on that road and have the governing body make the determination to either lower the speed limit or retain the current posted speed limit.


Any additional signage is utter worthless in my opinion. At least by lowering the speed limit, that worthless sign has monetary repercussions.


sloaps
2010-06-04 19:32:25

I understand that cyclists seem to like these StR signs, but I'm not convinced of their benefit (beyond the political benefit of catering to a vocal constituency).


Nobody has done any studies, but I have some anecdotal evidence that the effect isn't entirely positive. I think that a BMUFL sign might be better, but even that should be backed up by some hard data.


I'd rather see something with teeth.


lyle
2010-06-04 19:42:09

@Sloaps - my information says that Harts Run is aka SR1010, so a State Road. If PennDOT determines it to be otherwise, we can go through the County. They are kicking off a new Active Allegheny Program that will be looking at key connectors in the region and making recommendations. I can direct them to Harts Run Road, if needed, as fallback plan "A"


swalfoort
2010-06-04 19:49:52

Share the Road signs at least give motorists the idea that we have a legal right to be on the same road. I always feel a little better on Rte 8 when I bike past that sign. People don't slow down, or give me any more space, that's for sure, but I feel vindicated. I am not saying that is the only thing that should be done about the situation, but it can't hurt, and it might help.


sarah_q
2010-06-04 20:35:20

I think the new side by side share the road signs give people a better visual example of what StR means.


ndromb
2010-06-04 20:45:16

[wrong thread]


ndromb
2010-06-04 20:49:52

@Swalfoort I checked the counts at district 11. Harts Run is a state route with 7000 trips. I'm sticking with a design/regulatory review of the road. It may reduce the posted speed.


sloaps
2010-06-04 22:19:32

@edmonds9, I can't wait to get on my bike again.

That is the most important thing here I think, keep riding. Accidents will happen. The more cyclists are out there, the better the drivers will adapt. People should not let any of these recent incidents intimidate them into riding less, or god forbid, not at all. I for one, ride ELB all the time. Often with my kids (one in a trailer). Despite what has occurred recently, I still plan to continue to do so (as soon as my bike is fixed!). All the while, continue to engage as many people as you can on cycling safety and awareness.


ilikebikes
2010-06-05 00:46:08

I hate to put wood on the fire again, but any news about any charges in this case? Or news about any 'share-the-road' education at FCHS? Or is this been brushed off and back to business-as-usual?


Any updates would be appreciated.


bikeygirl
2010-06-07 13:43:39

Hey sloaps, I'm pretty sure the speed limit on Harts Run is 35 mph. Would they make it any lower?


eric
2010-06-07 14:39:36

Eric, the speed limit on the stretch of Harts Run between Dorseyville and Saxonburg Roads is actually 40 mph. I think it was allowed to be higher because it's a fairly straight road and has very few places for new traffic to enter on that segment.


impala26
2010-06-07 15:01:19

And it should be safe at 40 mph, if people don't have their heads under the dash.


If we want to make the roads safe to drive with your head under the dash, we'll have to go back to the old rules that "horseless carriages must be preceded by a man on foot ringing a bell".


lyle
2010-06-07 16:39:37

Couple years ago, I was flying up Washington Boulevard in my car. It was a beautiful summer day and I was on my way home from an ultimate frisbee game in Fox Chapel. I was speeding and having a wonderful time. I'd driven that road that way for 20 years.


I came around a bend and there were two slow-moving cyclists in the lane in front of me.


I braked. I swerved. (I was pretty sure the left lane was clear, but I would've preferred to hit a car there than touch the cyclists anyway.) It was okay. I'm not sure the bikes even noticed me.


It scared the shit out of me. I went home and told everyone about it for the next six days. Writing about it now I still feel sick. I should have known better. I've been that cyclist. They didn't do anything wrong.


To tell the truth, I still fly up Washington Boulevard. But not in the right lane, and not coming up on blind corners. Reading about this accident has me thinking more about what else I can do to be more careful.


You can bitch me out for speeding if you want, but first think about how you drive (if you do). Where are the danger zones? Where are you seeing cyclists on the road where there hadn't been cyclists or pedestrians in the last 20 years? Could it have happened to you? And how can you make sure it doesn't?


erink
2010-06-10 03:56:10

@edmonds so you were the one with those pins all over your backpack at FOC? Those are totally rad. They have them at the BikePGH office?


noah-mustion
2010-06-10 10:28:17

Yep, from the BikePgh office. Scott told me I could take as many as I wanted as long as I promised to wear them! I did use some restraint.


edmonds59
2010-06-10 11:40:51

Hey ErinK, thanks for your comments. I know in my younger days, I drove like an arse much of the time.


I know that in that past ten years, my driving style has changed radically, much of it due to my time spent on the road as a cyclist. Perhaps that should be a mandatory part of driver training. And, I've said before, I think our streets could be made safer immediately by simply enforcing basic vehicle laws, particularly the speed limit (btw, this isn't a swipe at ErinK's speeding admission). I reckon most drivers assume that they will never get pulled over in the city for doing 35 in a 25 zone.


bjanaszek
2010-06-10 12:00:46

I'm not happy with the silence regarding Donald Parker's death and I've begun to call media to learn more about the situation: is the investigation ongoing? are charges pending? what else do we know about the driver? The situation is tragic and the veil of silence maddening.


I urge anyone reading this to google the victim's name, Donald Parker, and to contact news media to express your ongoing concern about the situation.


If I hear anything back, I'll pass it along.


surly-jason
2010-06-10 12:17:58

also saw this on wtae, it happened monday:


'Good Citizen' Hit, Killed By Teen Driver While Doing Yard Work

CRESCENT TOWNSHIP, Pa. --


A lifelong Crescent Township resident was hit and killed by a vehicle while weed whacking his front yard, police said. Crescent Township police said David Davie was struck while in his front yard by a 16-year-old driving on Route 51 at 11:50 a.m. Monday.


http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/23824425/detail.html


IN HIS YARD, his daughter heard it, AND his wife died in a similar way in the 70s. NO CHARGES THOUGH!!!


when the hell are we going to learn?


cburch
2010-06-10 13:53:23

Apparently baseball stats are more important than cyclist safety. Way to go, post-gazette.


joeframbach
2010-06-10 14:03:06

I just got off the phone with someone who spoke to Sgt. Bill Palmer of the Allegheny County Police. The rumors of a juvenile being distracted while adjusting his shoe(s) is true. He is reportedly "sick with grief." Charges of careless driving are being recommended and the case is being referred to the DA's office for review.


surly-jason
2010-06-10 14:34:45

Methinks demanding an order-of-magnitude increase in license application fees might get the attention this deserves. Merely upping them by $10 or $20 will merely irritate the we-can't-afford-its and the discriminatory-against-the-poors.


No. Start with a x10 increase. 16-year-olds can't handle their steering wheels any better than 18-year-olds can handle their liquor.


stuinmccandless
2010-06-10 16:08:19

I know the driver of the truck and he is a good KID (graduated high school this year) who has been through alot in his life which he overcame and turned to God. He is quite religious and would never intentionally hurt anyone. He is sick with grief and probably will never fully recover from this tragedy. I feel bad for the cyclist's family, but I also feel bad for the driver. This was a horrible ACCIDENT!! Everyone of us have done something stupid while we were driving but luckily, most of us have not had consequences to deal with because of it. How many of you have reached down to look for something, turned around to yell at the kids? Everyone, I don't care who you are, has done something that distracts you while you are driving. From what the media says about Donald Parker, he was a caring man who did as much as he could to raise money for good causes and cared about other human beings. I don't think that a man like this would want this boy to suffer for the rest of his life for something that he did unintentionally. But believe me, he will suffer for the rest of his life. I do not believe this kid will ever forget or forgive himself for what happened. There are two sides to every tragedy and neither side of this tragedy will ever truly heal.


shar145
2010-06-11 04:27:34

"This was a horrible ACCIDENT!! Everyone of us have done something stupid while we were driving but luckily, most of us have not had consequences to deal with because of it."


I like this definition of accident:


"an unfortunate event resulting especially from carelessness or ignorance"


Was he careless when he looked down, was he ignorant for driving with flip flops?


"but luckily, most of us have not had consequences to deal with because of it."


Luckily? I would say the lack of consequences directly results in the "doing something stupid while driving." I mean hey, if you can get away with doing stupid things while driving 95% of the time, why not? Heck, kill somebody, no consequences. So what exactly do you propose we do to stop people from doing stupid things while driving?


And I'm tired of this faulty logic "hey, you did that too, so that makes it right, right?" being thrown around. Guess what, if 99% of drivers did something stupid while driving (like speeding and not paying attention to what's ahead or know where upcoming blind spots are, driving with flip flops, etc) then 99% of drivers are IN THE WRONG.


And secondly, not everybody drives. I for example, probably drive a car less than ten days in a year. I know people that NEVER drive. Don't even have a license. So what do you say to them?


sgtjonson
2010-06-11 06:12:50

Unfortunately Donald Parker is dead and can't tell us what he thinks about the situation; I think putting words in his mouth, especially when they agree with your own viewpoint, is a bit presumptuous.


I don't have a vendetta against the kid, I just want people to stop hitting and killing cyclists, pedestrians, people standing in their yard, or even other motorists. The societal attitude that this was an "accident" and that somehow it's OK because "he was distracted, but it's ok because everyone does it", is the problem I want to address. If you lose your shoe, the kids are crying, you want to text, etc. - REDUCE THE VELOCITY OF THE TWO TON MISSILE YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR CONTROLLING TO ZERO FIRST. It's really not that complicated. It's not OK when you "get away with it" and manage not to kill someone, and it's certainly not an "accident" when you do.


salty
2010-06-11 06:37:37

+1 salty.


edmonds59
2010-06-11 11:38:08

+2 salty.


There have to be consequences for our actions -- whether they are intentional or accidental.


People driving cars are responsible for their safe operation. Sure, it wasn't intentional but it doesn't change the fact that the kid ran Mr. Parker over and he's gone.


Shar145 -- I think your pro-accident viewpoint is posted to the wrong forum and I don't think you or the perpetrator will find sympathy here.


The best thing that can be done, in my opinion, is for the kid to be punished and then, if he feels so strongly about what happened, he can take up public speaking and warn young drivers about the consequences of careless, inattentive driving.


surly-jason
2010-06-11 12:04:45

+10 for mandatory public service, probably the best thing for the riding public as well as help this "kid" who may very well be distraught, recover some degree of mental well-being. I personally would not demand pillorying and lashing. Also I don't think he should ever be given a drivers license again, for life, ESPECIALLY if he is that mentally affected by this experience.


edmonds59
2010-06-11 12:11:23

Actually, I have a lot of sympathy for the kid. In some regard, he is also a victim of a society which turns a blind eye to incompetent and reckless operation of dangerous heavy machinery in the public way.


It would seem unfair to crucify this kid and no one else. But on the other hand, what IS going to be done to hold people accountable?


lyle
2010-06-11 12:16:54

Careless driving in PA: up to 90 days in jail, fines, and 3 points on your license.


I doubt this kid will get jail time.


I agree with revoking his license but I don't see that happening under the current law.


sarah_q
2010-06-11 12:59:39

I work on jobsites that have site safety policies which will allow the owner to pull an operator's card, physically remove them from the site, and bring them up on charges if the owner finds the operator was negligent or careless while operating a piece of machinery.


Carelessness includes speeding, failure to yield and other activities which habitually occur in public.


If the problem too big to enforce, then we need to change the way people are permitted to travel. I'm not talking about a nanny state - like issuing a "share the road" sign - , but changes to land use and planning modules to inhibit car dependent development, eliminate the policy of constructing addition lane-miles of road to combat congestion, and legislate user fees which are commensurate to the actual cost of maintaining surface transportation infrastructure.


sloaps
2010-06-11 13:01:03

++++on land use planning changes. there need to be big changes made and fast on how we build and develop our street network.


but that aside, I do feel sympathy for the driver (though not as much as for the victim/family). He's very young and it's all very sad. Even moreso than jail time, I'd really like to see hefty community service mandated and also some kind of intensive driver training class.


tabby
2010-06-11 13:12:23

I'd like to see him become part of the solution. I have no idea how though.


lyle
2010-06-11 13:50:01

He is quite religious and would never intentionally hurt anyone.


Non sequitur.


joeframbach
2010-06-11 14:00:15

I'm gonna try to stay on a civilized-peaceful mode this time....


+3 Salty


+2 Surly Jason


@shar45: I don't think anyone wants to crucify this 'young adult' -don't call him a kid, because I bet he only uses the 'kid' term when convenient for him. I believe that we only want him to own up to what he caused, both by accepting whatever disciplinary action is given to him by the justice system, by doing community service and educating others in SAFE driving, and by... seriously, STOP calling this an accident. It wasn't malicious -we know that, but it was indeed careless and thoughtless.


Also, pulling the 'he's a religious kid who turned to God' trump card... bravo for him! But don't use it as a token that just because he's religious now, he should be absolved or forgiven for his trespasses ... specially when his 'trespass' could have been avoided had he been a GOOD careful driver. He DID kill someone.


Lastly, it is indeed a tragedy, but I will add, don't disregard the victim or specially the family he left behind. Because --seriously-- you have no freaking idea what those people go through. In the blink of an eye their life ALSO changed forever, through no action of them, through not fault of their own -and still, they are left to bear the effects of this tragedy for the rest of their life.


Yeah, tell Mr Parker's daughter that her Dad won't be able to walk her down the aisle when she gets married because due to an 'accident' her father was killed.


bikeygirl
2010-06-11 14:01:07

I've been only kinda monitoring this discussion, but since we're talking about forgiveness and whatnot, does anyone know if Mr. Parker's family is pursuing charges against the young man?


bjanaszek
2010-06-11 14:03:26

I largely disagree with shar145. There is one point, though, on which I am in agreement - *lots* of drivers are routinely careless. The key difference is luck. In most cases, the carelessness of one driver is mitigated by the caution of other road users. That said, I completely disagree with the conclusion "So we shouldn't do anything about it."


I think that we are far to cavalier about issuing drivers licenses. We issue them to people who are too young. We treat them as "for life" - far too many people reach an age or physical condition where they can no longer safely operate a vehicle, but continue to do so anyway. We allow repeat offenders for offenses like DUI to continue driving, either by returning a license after a suspension so short it's best described as homeopathic, or by simply not enforcing laws against driving with a suspended license, or enforcing them with similarly weak penalties.


jz
2010-06-11 14:04:05

@shar145: I usually don't intervene in this forum, but I find what you wrote to be infuriating. What do you have to say to people who actually make an effort for not driving, to people who are actually careful while driving? People who choose not to accept this good job, because it is in an area where the only mode of transportation is driving? People who ride their bike all year round, in the rain, in the cold, because they know that driving can kill?

You seem to agree with this was just an "accident". A mortal accident is a probability that is likely to happen the minute you get in the car, so an accident is not just an "accident". If you drive, it means you accept the risk when you got in the car, and if you kill someone, you must also accept all responsibilities. Because you have the choice whether you drive or not.


lulu
2010-06-11 14:48:12

@shar - It is a bad deal all around. And while I am sure the young man in question feels bad about it, there have to be consequences. Whatever those are, they won't ever equal the Parker family's loss.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-06-11 14:49:36

shar145, thanks for posting.


I do feel bad for the driver and believe he is sorry, but he still needs to be held accountable in some way. I don't believe in jail time in a situation like this but he shouldn't be allowed to drive again until he can prove he is fit to do so.


Being distracted is not an excuse, it's a cause. No one would let an airline pilot off the hook because they were adjusting their shoe when the plane crashed.


rsprake
2010-06-11 14:51:13

Shar145, First off, welcome to the forum. Most of us here publicly introduce ourselves. It helps keep conversations civil, and it gives you more credibility. I recommend you join the rest of us here.


Secondly, I think it is in very bad taste to be putting words in the mouth of the deceased. Especially if you didn't know him.


Third, if you (and those responsible for you) feel that you are old enough to drive, you accept that you will take responsibility for your actions. If you rear end a car while driving, you are responsible for the damages. It's simple accountability-- your faith, you age, your sex, your previous history shouldn't be taken into account.


If he is truly sorry, I think he should come out publicly and join us in our fight for safe roads.


However, I do think jail time, permanent loss of license, and fines are appropriate. He made a consciously decision to wear sandals (which is dumb and unsafe), and he also made the decision to take his hand(s) off the wheel and eyes off the road. These are conscious negligent actions that resulted in a mans death.


ndromb
2010-06-11 15:22:27

This is one of those situations where I think the system needs to be crucified rather than the perpetrator. Clearly the young man was in the wrong and deserves some punishment, but as someone stated earlier, the better use of this event is to engage the schools and the general public about driving habits and sharing the road with bicycles. Not to mention better designed roads to accommodate for bikes or additional alternate paths/trails.


impala26
2010-06-11 15:25:26

For shar's benefit, this has probably been said before, but I think perhaps a large part of the reason people feel strongly about this circumstance is that it is so clear cut - the weather was clear, broad daylight, experienced rider, there were no extenuating circumstances for the driver, 100% driver error, inexcusable. Regardles of any absence of malice or whatever.


edmonds59
2010-06-11 15:36:30

Local paper this morning confirms the flipflop story, remorse of driver. Posted to a new thread


swalfoort
2010-06-11 15:37:15

So the PG says No charges have been filed against the 17-year-old boy who had been driving the pickup truck. The District Attorney's office will review the investigative reports to determine whether charges should be filed.


and the trib says: Palmer said detectives have concluded their investigation.


"The report has been sent to the district attorney's office to see if anything beyond possibly careless driving will be charged," he said.


The district attorney's office didn't return calls of inquiry.


the trib's is implying that charges are being filed. the pg says no charges. it looks like it's in the hands of the DA at this point to file charges, so any recommendations on what to do should go to


http://www.da.allegheny.pa.us/


feedback@da.allegheny.pa.us


right?


erok
2010-06-11 16:00:35

The driver should voluntarily take a five-year sabbatical from driving, regardless of any suspensions, charges, whatever.


The driver's family should sell their house and move into the city where they all should start using bicycles and public transportation for 75-100% of their transportation needs.


On those two points, I am fairly serious. On the next one, a bit less so, but still...


Bulldoze the damn suburban development where they all live so that there are fewer cars on the road.


stuinmccandless
2010-06-11 16:01:38

A bit of vitriol Stu...


Personally, I feel something less drastic, like forcefully putting an end to this "why do we need to install sidewalks?" mindset with these suburban developers. Not to mention some way to incentivise (or force legally) improvements to suburban roads to make them more walking and bike friendly.


I was talking to a friend of mine from a small town in the Netherlands (online friend), and he told me that basically even the nature of biking in that country is that the cities and towns either have shared streets or bike lanes (mostly separated) and the country suburban roads mostly have separated paths for those walking and biking. He even showed me a google maps streetview of a typical suburban road like this, it's eye-opening to say the least.


I'm not saying we have to become Holland, I'm merely saying there is precedent to it and there is no reason we cannot invest in designated shared roads like this for biking and walking.


It has to start somewhere right?


impala26
2010-06-11 16:25:50

Wide berms, bike lanes, and sidewalks aren't going to stop a 45 mph pickup truck with nobody steering it.


dwillen
2010-06-11 16:32:18

@dwillen: True, but I think harshly reprimanding this kid won't do a thing to change other people's driving habits. We're talking about calling for systematic change, and unfortunately to do so (better driver's ed, stricter penalties, etc.) will have to take some time. I still stand by my statements that better bike facilities COUPLED with legal improvements would go really far to make a better experience for everyone, cars and bikes.


impala26
2010-06-11 16:38:45

Since when can you kill someone by negligence (note: much different than an accident) and have ABSOLUTELY NO CONSEQUENCES??????????


Message sent to drivers everywhere: a cyclist's life is not that important so text away! mess with the radio! tie your shoe! read the paper! no problem!


I am disgusted.


sarah_q
2010-06-11 17:09:47

And I stand by my statement that we shouldn't have suburban developments in the first place that 100% rely on using a car to get around. What ones we have already are bad enough, but we certainly should build no more.


I'm 51 (Don was 52), have a couple of kids that depend on me (as did Don), and need to bike to work on suburban highways (as did Don). I do not want to be the next Don Parker!


No apologies on the vitriol.


stuinmccandless
2010-06-11 17:21:56

a bit of a semantic qualm here, but it most certainly was an accident by the common usage of that term. just because someone was at fault doesn't mean it was intentional.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 17:26:04

I would consider his death an accident, but the dangerous driving that caused his death was certainly not accidental.


ndromb
2010-06-11 17:28:43

I would consider his death an accident, but the dangerous driving that caused his death was certainly not accidental.


That is precisely what an accident is:


"An accident is a specific, unidentifiable, unexpected, unusual and unintended external action which occurs in a particular time and place, with no apparent and deliberate cause but with marked effects. It implies a generally negative probabilistic outcome which may have been avoided or prevented had circumstances leading up to the accident been recognized, and acted upon, prior to its occurrence."


bjanaszek
2010-06-11 17:33:02

I was under the impression that DA's and Judges are to remain impartial to public opinion.


It's a bit disgusting seeing so many people calling for anothers head. He's a 17 year old kid who made a chain of mistakes w/ great consequence.


Granted I think distracted driving is a problem, but it's nothing new. My first accident was when a station wagon driven by a mom w/ many kids drove head-on into my first car 12 years ago, and then she got out of the car and yelled at me, who had come to a complete stop and just watched as she kept coming and hit my car while yelling at the kids jumping in the back seats.


I also think it's silly to frame the issue as a cyclist's life versus the more broad issue of a human's life. When you frame it as a cyclist, the issue becomes one where people can debate that he shouldn't have been on the road in the first place. If you frame it as a person, then arguments seem to fall by the side. I was thinking about this the other day when I passed a runner on saxonburg rd. and thought about how you usually don't see public arguments about how runners shouldn't be on the road (and most runners do run on the road, not the sidewalk), Although when I ran a lot in high school and college, I remember people making the same off-colour remarks about driving real close to buzz runners, go-forrest-go, and how you should run on the sidewalk.


Sounds like a horrible accident. My opinion, worth all of naught, is the weight of killing someone on your shoulders is going to affect him more than any fines he will receive for an accident. Although a reckless or careless driving ticket is probably in order to show that there are legal consequences. If it's not clear I feel sorry for all parties involved.


If you want to have a real impact,

a) get more people on bikes on the roads and roads out there,

b) lobby the local authorities and representatives that safe roads w/ less speeders and such through the enforcement of local laws is a priority.

c) lobby your local and state representatives that safe driving should be a legal priority for further legislation

d) quit making other people villians, and instead turn them into your conspirators by finding a way to bring them onto your side rather than dividing the issues or preaching from a soap box.


sympathy and empathy win more debates than anger and vigilance.


aaron-s
2010-06-11 17:41:42

If this "KID" had been texting with his eyes focused on his phone instead of fixing his flip-flops with his eyes focused on the underside of his dashboard the local media would be all over this story - and the DA a little more focused too. How is one situation different than the other? A man was KILLED! He was NOT in an accident, even if the circumstances were accidental.


Now with my own rant out of the way, I’m not sure that locking this young man up in jail is the right answer either. I think some form of community service where he spends a CONSIDERABLE amount of time speaking in front of high school students about car safety, personal responsibility, and how momentary decisions can have life-long, and life-ending consequences would be better. Let him tell his story and relive the events of that day over and over again for a few years, for me that would serve a better purpose than a few months behind bars.


marko82
2010-06-11 17:43:42

I also think it's silly to frame the issue as a cyclist's life versus the more broad issue of a human's life. When you frame it as a cyclist, the issue becomes one where people can debate that he shouldn't have been on the road in the first place.


I think you pointed out the very issue why it is important to recognize this is partially a cycling issue--there is no debate.


d) quit making other people villians, and instead turn them into your conspirators by finding a way to bring them onto your side rather than dividing the issues or preaching from a soap box.


It is hard to do when his identity is a closely held secret, and no one has come out with a public apology.


If you aren't willing to publicly admit your mistakes, you haven't truly accepted them as your own.


I really don't care about the internal pain this person is going to feel. Life is a true and tangible thing, feelings are not--saying that his feeling are hurt is punishment enough is ridiculous. Furthermore,The fact that the law and the media is protecting him in sure a matter shields him from much of the reality of the issue.


The fact is, so far he has had no real life repercussions to the accident besides guilt. Where as the Parker family lost a father and a husband.


ndromb
2010-06-11 17:53:21

In 2006, a man and 2 of his children were killed by a runaway piece of equipment that a driver didn't attach properly, from WTAE:


"The driver of the truck, Bradley Demitras, 35, of Pine Township, was sentenced Tuesday to nine to 18 months in prison and six years of probation on involuntary manslaughter and other charges.


"All I can say is I am sorry," Demitras said during sentencing. "I know that sounds like the hollowest thing in the world, but I am sorry."


Prosecutors said the chipper came free from Demitras' truck and went into the opposing lanes, killing Spencer Morrison and his 4-year-olds, Alaina and Garrett, on April 13, 2006.


Demitras pleaded guilty in March and acknowledged that the chipper wasn't properly hooked up to his truck before he left work.


Demitras also pleaded guilty to reckless endangerment for critically injuring the third triplet, Ethan, who survived.


Widow Nichole Morrison told the judge that her pain is immeasurable. She described having to explain to her 5-year-old who asks often, "When are they coming home, mommy?"


She asked that Demitras be sentenced to the maximum consecutive sentence allowed by law.


"I don't think you need to be punished to the maximum period," Allegheny County Judge Lester Nauhaus said. "I just think you need to be punished."


"You see about this accident and you say, 'What kind of moron would do this?'" said defense attorney Pat Thomassey. "And then the person walks into my office, and I just didn't find him to be a monster. I found him to be just a regular working guy who gets up every day and goes to work."


During his probation period, Demitras must talk to trucking companies about the laws of the road."


A lot of similarities except, the killed weren't on bikes, and the driver doesn't get shit.


edmonds59
2010-06-11 18:00:03

I can't help but to think...if this was someone on a motorcycle who was killed, the driver of the pick-up would have been at a minimum cited with reckless endangerment with more serious charges pending until further investigation. All forms of transportation should be seen as equals, obeying all rules of the road. I ride both a motorcycle and a bicycle. There has been many a scary moment commuting on either, but the advantage is with the motorcycle, as I can accelerate (ahem...speed), to avoid a hazard. I have no such advantages on bicycles.


I feel for both grieving parties, but a crime has been committed, despite it being unintentional. There should be at least a fine and/or jail time and certainly community service. The pick-up driver should join up with a local legislator willing to start hammering away at increasing fines for distracted drivers. Community service could also include getting this driver on a bike regularly and speaking with other young teenage drivers about distracted driving.


Yes, we are all distracted drivers at one point or another. But those of us wo regularly ride on two wheels realize when the cell phone starts to ring while we are driving in our 4 wheeled vehicles, we pull over.


Driving is a privilege, not a right.


heathrs9
2010-06-11 18:17:18

"Yes, we are all distracted drivers at one point or another. But those of us wo regularly ride on two wheels realize when the cell phone starts to ring while we are driving in our 4 wheeled vehicles, we pull over."


Couldn't have said it better. It seems that once you have you life endangered a few times, you take driving much more seriously--when you understand how fragile your life is, you are much more aware to others.


Of the people I know who ride (motorcycles and bicycles), none of them have ever ran into anything or anyone. However, I know of tons of people who have hit stationary poles, curbs, guard rails, and other cars--none of them ride.


ndromb
2010-06-11 18:33:16

I agree it is a sad situation all around, but the "kid" needs to be held responsible. I don't think jail time is necessarily appropriate, but with no consequence a message is sent that bikers are fair game.


I think contacting the DA's office about the matter is a good idea. While some may think they are impartial, unfortunately that is not true. It's an elected position and I believe public opinion will make a difference.


bikinggirl
2010-06-11 18:37:04

In the 2006 case above, the man and 2 children, what do you think public opinion would have been if the authorities had said "it was a terrible accident, the driver feels really bad, but it was an accident, so he's free to go". ?


edmonds59
2010-06-11 18:42:15

but with no consequence a message is sent that bikers are fair game.


I'm not sure this is the case. I think most people, if involved in such an incident would likely be pretty shattered afterward[1]. And for those people who wouldn't care, I'm not sure they'd get the message anyway (especially someone who might maliciously go after another road user). I think the message being sent here is that the whole system is pretty screwed up, and laws are not consistently applied.


I agree that if folks are worked up, they should contact the DA. It is very much a political position, and public opinion makes a difference.


[1] I'm not trying to equate this with the sadness felt by the family of the deceased. I'm merely saying someone who killed another human will probably be pretty shaken up by the event, and will likely live a changed life.


bjanaszek
2010-06-11 18:45:51

@bikinggirl "...I think contacting the DA's office about the matter is a good idea. While some may think they are impartial, unfortunately that is not true. It's an elected position and I believe public opinion will make a difference..."


I like this thinking..... If someone wrote a letter expressing some of our views and concerns as cyclists regarding this matter, everyone who feels of the same heart and view could sign it, and then be given to the DA. Regardless if is taken into account or not by them in the matter, AT LEAST they would know how the community feels.


And also, I feel very odd that there isn't yet a name released in this case for the driver. I wonder if this person has some 'connections', and that is why his name is not shared. I would be even more upset if it was found out that was the case..... I mean, Fox Chapel is a well-to-do area after all....


bikeygirl
2010-06-11 18:51:03

When you frame it as a cyclist, the issue becomes one where people can debate that he shouldn't have been on the road in the first place. If you frame it as a person, then arguments seem to fall by the side. I was thinking about this the other day when I passed a runner and thought about how you usually don't see public arguments about how runners shouldn't be on the road (and most runners do run on the road, not the sidewalk)


i don't buy this analogy. people can debate all they want on their personal feelings on weather bikes belong on the road or not. the fact is that pennsylvania law allows it. period.


Here's what PA law says about pedestrians in your situation:


(a) Mandatory use of available sidewalk.--Where a sidewalk is provided and its use is practicable, it is unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway.


erok
2010-06-11 18:53:37

the name probably wasn't released because the "kid" is a minor


erok
2010-06-11 18:55:38

Ok...... I thought their names were only protected in sexual-abuse cases, but not on criminal/homicide ones... my bad.


bikeygirl
2010-06-11 19:00:31

but, and this could be extrapolating a bit, but as often is the case, a person's place in the community could determine what, and if any charges are filed.


erok
2010-06-11 19:06:00

DA email sent in.


As citizens, we all have the power to voice our opinion to enable change in how our infrastructure progresses from here forward. However, we have little ability to retroactively change what has happened, and the legal system is the last hope in addressing issues from a flawed system. For this reason, I fully support as much appropriate punishment as possible.

Jail time seems silly, but loss of license and public service (including speaking and educating) seem like a great idea. I would have kept my eyes glued on a senior from the previous year involved in an incident like this, lecturing me about road safety in a class in high school. Peer pressure and learning are great forces, and ones that should be used for the better. This young man could become an inspirational image if he took up the call and spoke out.


The thought sickens me, but I do wonder what would happen to a cyclist who got distracted trying to unclip and ran over a stroller with an infant in it. I am just as responsible for my 20 pound vehicle as anyone else is for their 2 ton one. Use the road, take up the responsibility, and pay the price.


wojty
2010-06-11 19:07:04

I've been thinking about this one for a while.


Some back-of-the-envelope calculations:


If the driver was going 40 mph (the posted speed limit), and Harper 10 mph (not unreasonable for a fit cyclist up a steep grade), the speed differential was 30 mph, or 44 ft/s. That is, for every second elapsed, the driver closed the distance between his truck and Harper by 44 ft.


The stretch of road where the accident occurred is relatively straight, with good visibility. It's not unreasonable to expect a driver to see a bicyclist 500 ft ahead, but lets be generous and cut that distance in half. That gives the driver ~5.7 seconds from the moment he spots Harper until the moment he should pass him. It seems like a very short amount of time, but it's an eternity in distracted-driver terms. Try counting 1-one thousand, 2-one thousand, ...6-one thousand the next time you get behind the wheel, and pay attention to how much you process and react to in that time.


With that in mind, then, one (or some combination) of the three things happened:

1. The driver was took his eyes off the road before he saw the bicycle and was distracted for *more* than 6 seconds

2. The driver saw Harper, and chose to take his eyes off the road despite knowing that a slow-moving vehicle was in the road up ahead

3. Harper was obscured by an obstacle or curve, and the driver chose to take his eyes off the road with no visibility to what lie ahead


No matter how you cut it, it's an example of colossal stupidty, and *criminal* negligence, and there need to be consequences to those actions. I know the driver feels terrible, and I feel sympathy for him and his (hopeful) knowledge that the accident was entirely preventable and entirely his fault. He *should* feel terrible, though...he killed someone! He willfully and completely failed in his responsibilities as the person in charge of a 4000 lb. vehicle, and as a result a man is dead.


"Feeling terrible", even for the rest of his life, is not an acceptable consequence to those actions. Neither is a ticket for careless driving. Incarceration, probation, and a significant amount of community service are warranted in this situation.


If the driver was drunk, no one would question the need to prosecute him. Whether a driver is drunk or distracted, he is just as much of a danger to the other road users. In either case, the driver makes a conscious choice to disregard his responsibility; the only difference is that for the drunk it's over a matter of hours, and for the distracted a matter of seconds. For that reason only, I can accept lesser penalties for the distracted driver, but there still need to be penalties.


This one situation will not change our driving culture, for certain, but doing the right thing here is a start.


edmond69's example is a good one, and one that's crossed my mind since this accident happened. The girl in Washington County last year who was sent to jail after an accident she caused while texting that resulted in someone being killed is another. It doesn't matter that this "boy" is only 17; we've collectively decided that 17 is old enough to accept the responsibilities of driving in this country, so he must accept responsibility for his failure to do so.


mattre
2010-06-11 19:07:18

@bikeygirl - minor's names are not protected in criminal/homicide cases, as evidenced in this PG story on a recent homicide in E. Liberty.


"A 16-year-old East Liberty girl is also facing homicide charges in connection with the death last week of 19-year-old Andre Alexander after the girl telephoned her brother and Mr. White to the scene, police said.


Lashanet Thomas is being held without bail in the Allegheny County Jail pending a preliminary hearing at 10 a.m. Friday in Municipal Court.


She is charged with homicide, conspiracy and criminal solicitation in connection with the May 30 shooting."


That they're hiding this "kid's" name reeks of something foul.


quizbot
2010-06-11 19:18:05

"That they're hiding this "kid's" name reeks of something foul."


I think that this board is getting first time posters who seem to try to defend the "kid" also seems a bit odd.


ndromb
2010-06-11 19:25:11

That they're hiding this "kid's" name reeks of something foul.


that might seem like it were the case, only no one in this instance is charged with anything yet, let alone homicide.


it's interesting, and somewhat sad i think, that someone asking for mercy for the driver has reignited calls for the opposite.


also: it's perfectly reasonable to write the DA. the decision to press charges isn't only about the available evidence. they take contextual things into account, like whether the victim or the community would like charges pressed if sufficient evidence exists.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 19:30:03

Call or email the newspapers and tv stations and pester them about the identity of the driver. The more people who express an interest in the situation, the more likely someone at a media outlet will take an interest and try to learn more.


Today there have been at least two newspaper stories published about the end of the investigation -- send the authors an email and ask for more follow-up on their part. It wouldn't hurt to point out the apparent discrepancy of whether charges are pending versus whether they are under review by the DA's office.


I agree with quizbot that something reeks ... who is this kid? Is he the police chief's son? A relative of the township supervisor? He's old enough to drive and he killed someone: his name and other information should be known.


surly-jason
2010-06-11 19:34:04

I'm merely saying someone who killed another human will probably be pretty shaken up by the event, and will likely live a changed life.


I want people who have not killed another human yet to be shaken up and live changed lives.


If the only way to make people be responsible drivers is to let them kill someone first, and then wise up, we're in for a lot of bloodshed.


lyle
2010-06-11 19:55:22

Wait, wait..... I was just wondering who this 'young adult' person is. I understand that is a delicate situation, and anonymity makes sense in this case.


While I do not find acceptable what he did, weather it was accidental or not, it would help me understand the situation better. This 'shadow defenders' keep saying that this 'kid' is sorry, that is a 'good person' who found God, that they will forever be 'affected' for this...... given all this anonymity, I just think is bullshit. How can the community make a better assessment of his character when ALL we know is that he keeps being called a 'kid', who ran a cyclist by trying to grab his 'flip-flop', who has NEVER apologized? All they say in the news is that he 'feels' bad'...... bad for whom? Bad because he f'up his life and conscience? Or bad because he caused the death of another human being????


Right now I just think this person is a total coward for not coming forward to -in the least- apologize to the family, although that's probably because, by apologizing, he would admit fault, which I'm sure his lawyer would not want him to do...... or maybe there'll be a big settlement with the family to make it go away.


The fact that the Police and Media keep his name private, leads me more and more to believe that some political or business connection is there... which is not fair and just plain dirty.


I do not want to be seen as a bully, specially towards someone who is most likely -younger- than me. However, as we are all 'adults' who have obtained driver licenses, just as this young person did, I think is about time he spoke up, and perhaps make me develop a better opinion of them.


I'm sorry for his family and parents.... I'm sure they are trying to protect their son.... but all this hiding, all this evasion, is just sending the wrong freaking message.


AND EVEN BETTER..... the parents could make a statement too. You know? Cowards too......


(sigh)... I'm sorry... the more I think about this, the more I start to get all worked-up......


----

----

----


Personally, I think that the community would be able to begin the 'healing' and 'education' of the lessons learned in this tragedy if we were not kept in the dark about the identity of this person, and what charges -if any- will come of it.


All I know, is that a fellow cyclists died, to no fault of his own, and no charges have been filed, which makes me feel hopeless that there will be any justice in here.


bikeygirl
2010-06-11 19:56:17

@bikeygirl: Was it reported somewhere that the driver and/or his family hasn't spoken to Mr. Parker's family?


Just curious. As I've said, I'm only kinda following this thread, and the news reports from today don't indicate anything either way.


bjanaszek
2010-06-11 20:03:25

@bikeygirl: you know a lot about this anonymous person.


@lyle: agree completely. and that is why punitive vengeance in this case will do nothing as a deterrent.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 20:04:31

@Lyle: I agree completely. I merely saying the lack of charges in this case doesn't automatically put a target on the back of every cyclist on the road.


bjanaszek
2010-06-11 20:08:21

OMG no...... NO NO NO!!!!


I don't know who this person is or anything.... just a concerned citizen who is trying to connect the dots and find some resolution (Law and Order is one of my favorite shows).


I've read all the news so far in the case, and have been at the site of the accident twice (ghostbike & ride of silence). I also met briefly Don Parker's children after the ghost-bike ceremony, and that is it.


In fact, all I know is the side of the family, in the sense that I had a brother killed by a careless-bus-driver when he was five.


((plus.... I've only been in Pittsburgh for 15 years)


bikeygirl
2010-06-11 20:09:42

@bikeygirl I was about to write a long-winded post, but you took the words out of my mouth.


At the end of the day, systemic changes are needed, and punishing one person will not solve all of the problems of distracted drivers, but at the same time, just saying "sorry" from anonymity doesn't cut it.


I will also be sending a message to the DA about this.


hoffmannj
2010-06-11 20:15:57

News Links (probably not in order):


NOTE: Nothing is ever mentioned about the driver. Today it was the first time that the media even acknowledged that it was a 'flip-flop' malfunction.


Whatever I have deduced from the driver, is from what the 'shadow defenders' have posted in this forum, who are 'novicebiker' and 'shar145'. And we kinda-knew at the board that it was a 'flip-flop' malfunction from what the rumors Impala26 shared in here.


So... see my point? Everything is very one-sided. I know who Don Parker was and how and why he died. All is known about the driver, is that it was a 'kid' and silence.


@Hoffman... thanks.. I think that a 'I'm sorry' would go a long way.....


* http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10147/1061257-100.stm

* http://kdka.com/local/Indiana.Township.accident.2.1718147.html

* http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/23700396/detail.html

* http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/news/pittsburgh/s_683722.html

* http://kdka.com/local/Don.Parker.memorial.2.1724167.html

* http://kdka.com/local/Bike.Pittsburgh.safety.2.1722025.html

* http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/valleynewsdispatch/s_685560.html

* http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10162/1064915-100.stm


bikeygirl
2010-06-11 20:30:03

Publicly identifying this guy and his family will likely lead to retribution, in some form, from someone, so trying to keep a lid on it makes some sense.


My sensitivities run not to the past but to the future. What's going to change as a result of all this? Five, 10 years out, how many other cyclists will die because of too much traffic or too many inattentive/drunk/sleepy/speeding motorists?


In our representative government system, real change starts at the bottom. Somehow we have to stop enabling stupidity. As anyone with a professional license (R.N., CPA, engineer, teacher, etc.) knows, renewing a license means more than sending Penna. Dept of State a check every couple of years. Why not drivers, too?


Sprawl must stop. Bazillions of school students driving to school (where there is a perfectly operable school bus) must stop. Road lanes being a couple feet wider each direction would help a lot.


* Tax vehicle miles traveled

* Properly fund public transit

* 100-question written test with $100-$250 fee to get a permit

* 100-question written test with $100-$250 fee to renew a license every four years

* Vehicle confiscation after some number of incidents


My acid test has always been, Would you let your 10-year-old kid bike to the piano lesson every Tuesday afternoon? If not, why not, and what's in the way of saying yes, and what do we have to change to get to that?


stuinmccandless
2010-06-11 20:44:32

@hv: punitive vengeance in this case will do nothing as a deterrent.


I don't know how you can be so sure.


As an aside, the "shadow defender" phenomenon is par for the course at newspapers, blogs &c whenever something controversial is going on. Sometimes PR lawyers even hire sock puppets to do it.


lyle
2010-06-11 20:46:31

I don't actually care about the identity of the driver, if they want to protect a minor, fine. But then, why openly publicize the identity of the 16 y.o. East Lib girl who shot someone? WTF. Needs to be a level playing field.

Also, I need to know that there are charges, consequences for this completely self-initiated circumstance.

And punishment is NOT vengeance, it is ideally, justice. And an important part of the concept of punishment is deterrence, it is supposed to be firm enough to make others reconsider taking similar actions. And if not in this crystal clear case, when?


edmonds59
2010-06-11 20:52:56

in order for punishment to work as a deterrent, people have to believe that they could be in a position where they could be punished. as has been explained and acknowledged, everyone is distracted while driving at some point. the fact that we haven't killed anyone reinforces our sureness that we likely won't kill anyone.


"it could never happen to me".


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 20:57:28

That they're hiding this "kid's" name reeks of something foul.


because she shot someone.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 20:58:56

and in case it's unclear, my stance is that we should punish distracted driving for its own sake, rather than "make an example" of someone because his mistakes led to the most dire consequences.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 21:01:25

@edmonds: I suspect there are far larger issues afoot in the comparison to the East Liberty shooting, beyond how bicycles are viewed on the road.


That said, I agree with you.


bjanaszek
2010-06-11 21:11:23

I'm sure the kid feels bad and I don't care about his identity, however, charges must be filed here. It's completely unacceptable for the authorities to just write it off as an 'accident'. I'm not asking that he be sent to jail either. He can be tried as a juvenile and punished accordingly, but there has to be consequences here.


Without charges commensurate with the crime and the consequences of his actions, it will be open season on cyclists. Any driver with a case of road rage for whatever reason, legitimate or not, will be able to run us down and claim it was an accident. That cannot be allowed to happen.


marv
2010-06-11 21:30:05

@HiddenVariable - actually, the girl was not the shooter... she called someone to bring a weapon, that other person was the shooter, and she was charged with homicide, conspiracy and criminal solicitation. Please read the article before calling me out again on the same quote. Thanks.


@stu - I doubt there would be any sort of retribution, other than humiliation. This is about public accountability for one's actions. I like your acid test, btw.


I don't think the "kid" or the "boy" (or whatever nomenclature the media is using to make it seem like HE is the victim) needs to be made an example... the laws simply need to be modified (or enforced) so that when someone does something equally stupid that results in the death of someone while they are operating a vehicle, they're given appropriate punishment. Being charged with vehicular homicide would seem to me to be appropriate in this case.


quizbot
2010-06-11 21:42:54

re: "people have to believe that they could be in a position where they could be punished."

Apparently the the entire driving public needs to be reminded that when they get behind the wheel they are operating a device that can kill.

The status quo is unnacceptable, and will continue until a case arises that is important enough to re-set the precedent. This seems to be the perfect case for someone to take up that gauntlet. I am not content to let police officers in closed session analyze the evidence and pass judgement. There needs to be charges and a trial.

The popular sense that "it could never happen to me" doubles the importance.


edmonds59
2010-06-11 22:06:00

@HiddenVariable - actually, the girl was not the shooter... she called someone to bring a weapon, that other person was the shooter, and she was charged with homicide, conspiracy and criminal solicitation.


my bad. i did know that, but it slipped my mind in my quick response. the fact is, though, that she was charged with something. we can't complain we don't know the driver's identity when he wasn't charged with anything.


though it's probably obvious that i also don't understand why we need his identity.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 22:48:50

Apparently the the entire driving public needs to be reminded that when they get behind the wheel they are operating a device that can kill.

The status quo is unnacceptable, and will continue until a case arises that is important enough to re-set the precedent. This seems to be the perfect case for someone to take up that gauntlet.


i also wanted to say that i agree with this completely. i just don't think that making an example of the driver is the way to accomplish it, and i think we should use this as an opportunity to push for stricter anti-distracted driving regulation and enforcement.


and lastly, i am not against punishing the driver, not in the slightest. i'm just against punishing him excessively in the (mistaken, in my opinion) hopes that it will have an impact on the way other people drive. if 40k deaths a year isn't a deterrent, neither will excessive punishment be.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-11 23:00:47

"though it's probably obvious that i also don't understand why we need his identity"


HV,


I don't need to know his identity per se, but I do need to know that the protection of his identity and a seeming reluctance to bring charges is not due to some type of favoritism or other undue influence.


It's fairly obvious there is enough here to at least support a charge. When someone is killed, but the person responsible isn't charged and his identity is protected, it's appropriate to ask "Why?"


marv
2010-06-11 23:11:13

i just don't think that making an example of the driver is the way to accomplish it...


It's not about making an example out of anyone, It's about doing what's right. To let the driver off with a careless driving citation is not right.


This kid recklessly, negligently killed someone. The laws, and the precedents, and the punishments already exist; they simply need to be *used* in this case. Jail time and a criminal record are entirely appropriate in this case.


No one is asking for the driver to be held up as an example to frighten the rest of society into compliance. We're simply asking for the laws to be enforced, for the reckless and negligent among us to be held accountable for their actions.


Society is broken in these situations and needs to change. Change doesn't happen overnight, but it has to start somewhere. This is a good place to start. In two or three months, when it happens again, we'll all be in a better position to build on that start.


mattre
2010-06-12 00:29:55

I just had a conversation with a newspaper reporter this morning -- he reports that he is as frustrated with the refusal of the local and county police and the DA's office to release information about the identity of the driver.


Apparently, if charges aren't pending, there isn't a report that is made public. If I understand correctly, once charges are filed, then the information is made public.


However, the so-called veil of silence (my term) is leading many people to wonder who the young man responisble for the tragedy is -- and what relationship, if any, he enjoys with prominent, privileged or politically connected families.


surly-jason
2010-06-12 15:20:03

I bet if the driver was some poor kid from the city his name would have been revealed without a second thought.


bikinggirl
2010-06-12 19:39:36

i wonder what the stats are on distracted driving crashes among teens vs the general population. and the deaths that result.


i also wonder how we can convince people that tens of thousands of people dying unnecessarily every year is not acceptable. i've become somewhat fatalistic on this point.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-13 04:29:19

Well, I've come to a decision after reading this whole thread.


I'll vote for anyone who'll raise the minimum driving age to 18. 'Cause I'm pro-life (pro-MY-life.)


sprite
2010-06-13 21:17:40

One of the riders on the Melbourne Australia naked bike ride, back in March, wore paint on his back saying "Can you see me NOW?"


There's a grain of sense in that.


stuinmccandless
2010-06-13 21:41:58

@ sprite and other "raise the minimum driving age" people


The driver that killed that guy in Oakland was like 40+? or something right? Being a careless driver, although I think statistically higher in teenagers, spans across all ages. And I don't know if it is just related to experience, as in, would first time 18 year old drivers be as likely to get into an accident as 16 year old drivers due to lack of experience driving.


sgtjonson
2010-06-13 22:29:12

Forget raising the minimum. How about adding a maximum.


noah-mustion
2010-06-14 02:31:38

It's still confuses me these deaths are considered accidents, something unavoidable. Obesity, smoking, these are deemed preventable deaths. Deaths caused by automobile don't fall into that category, as if driving a car is unavoidable and the deaths they cause, just part of doing business. I would suggest everyone stop driving, your car is a ridiculous albatross responsible for pollution, death and disease. I ride down the street and I'm forced to breath in exhaust. People who drive cars bitching about a massive oil spill yet continuing to buy gas, It's not hard for me to make a direct link between that oil spill and people putting gas in their car. What should the minimum age for driving be? I think no one should drive and I'd like to give your pollution back to you, I fckn hate it.

I took my daughter for a ride today, first time in her child seat, what fun, To bad it was marred by breathing in car exhaust.

I know people HAVE to drive because they're important and they have important things to do, stuff that can only be done in a 4,000 lb vehicle on exceedingly expensive road ways.


timito
2010-06-14 02:53:53

I actually saw people driving their bikes to the bike store, I guess their bikes got tired and needed to be driven, amazingly I witnessed bike advocates driving to the bike store. drive, drive, drive, drive, I have to drive my car, see my car. I can't relate.


timito
2010-06-14 03:24:52

I will support any, and hopefully all, of the following three laws:


-Raise minimum driving age to 18.


-Introduce written testing for renewal every 5 years, Driving tests every 10. Think of all the jobs we could create for those needing to administrate this! (slight tone of sarcasm, as we all have dealt with DMV workers)


-Eliminate any and all distractions legally, with severe punishment.


Of course, all three of these would require enforcement, something that is already rather lax. I am not sure if pushing for new laws or better enforcement of existing ones is a better option. Which is a terrible thing to say.


wojty
2010-06-14 12:20:14

@Pierce there are studies about brain development, judgement, impulse control, etc that show that people's brains actually work better when they are a few years older than we let them start driving now (e.g. do a web search for "teenage brain development and decision making".) Honestly we may be asking too much of some teenagers in that respect - this doesn't excuse them, it just makes supporters of the current driving age complicit. There is only so much that gory slide shows (like they showed at my high school) can do.


Yes, we can all get distracted but very, very often, judgement is involved in either (a) how the distraction got in to the car in the first place, or (b) how we deal with the distraction. If even 40+ year olds are making poor judgements with mature brains, that is all the more reason to be concerned about what we are asking of people whose brains are basically still green and on the tree.


sprite
2010-06-14 12:23:08

Treat distracted driving like the crime that it is and similar to DUI.


First offense, lose license 30 days.


Second offense, lose license 90 days.


Third offense, lose license 6 months and so on.


heathrs9
2010-06-14 12:28:48

@timito: "I actually saw people driving their bikes to the bike store, I guess their bikes got tired and needed to be driven, amazingly I witnessed bike advocates driving to the bike store. drive, drive, drive, drive, I have to drive my car, see my car. I can't relate."


That's awfully judgmental. You have no idea what the situations of these people are.


This morning, I drove to REI. Why? Because my wheel is destroyed, and my bicycle doesn't work so well with only one wheel.


A couple of years ago, I destroyed my knee. Those who have seen me on my bike have probably noticed the weird crank that I have. That's because on one side, I still don't have enough mobility to stroke all the way around with a normal crank. I've made great strides - this year, I was able to move the pedal 1" closer to the normal position (it's now only about 2" closer to the center than normal). I think I'm doing great, but there are still days when the knee swells up so much that I can't ride. Hey, does that make me not a real biker?


I'm a relatively new member on this forum. For years, I pretty much avoided the rest of the bicycling community, largely because of a very visible minority who have a hard-core "us and them" mentality, and people who don't fit their model of "us" aren't "real bikers". As someone who is chronically overweight, I'm definitely not part of that "us". I've really enjoyed finding Bike Pgh, because I don't encounter that mentality very much here. I don't know whether or not you intend to project it (I hope you don't), but this post definitely came off in that vein.


As far as others go, what about novice bikers? I've encouraged, with success, many people that I know to start taking up biking. I never suggest to new riders that they start out by commuting to and from work every day in rush hour traffic. Instead, I suggest that they take advantage of our beautiful trail system, and start by biking on the trails. That generally gives them positive experiences to start out with, and allows them to build confidence, muscles, and experience. From there, it's a much easier leap to start using the bicycle for short local trips, then longer local trips, daily commutes, etc.


You consistently advocate biking over driving, and I generally agree with you. Creating a hostile environment for those who are starting to make that switch is not an effective way to achieve your goal.


jz
2010-06-14 15:52:17

I can't relate.


I can tell.


This thread is derailed again. Please make another thread. 9 pages of off-topic banter isn't right.


joeframbach
2010-06-14 17:01:42

I was thinking about enforcement of traffic laws.


It would be excellent and effective, if violators had to find antoher way home.


Stopped for speeding? You can pick up your car the next day at the pound. Go through a stop sign? The same.


Trouble is, when selecting representatives, the voters will not support the enforcement of traffic laws. In essense, people would rather give up their forth amendment protection for searches than obey the traffic laws.


The police are quite happy to be allowed to stop any driver they want to for arbitrary reasons. "They were breaking the speed limit. So was everyone else, but I wanted to stop this person because I didn't like how the driver looked."


mick
2010-06-14 18:22:41

@JZ I'm not sure how commenting on seeing people drive to a bike store is judgmental, please explain.


timito
2010-06-15 09:37:11

I don't want to sound bossy, but there's already a rant-y thread going on elsewhere. Please.


edmonds59
2010-06-15 11:46:27

Yep, Timito, I am a bike advocate, and you probably have seen me drive to a bike store, or a bike ride, or a bike event. Sometimes I have my bike with me, sometimes I don't. In part, I drive so I CAN participate in such events. Bike advocacy is one of the many, many hats I wear. Often I am "trip chaining" going from one meeting to another. If I had to attend/support only those events that my job permitted me to ride to and from, you'd see me at far fewer events. The car permits me to participate in several events in the same evening. I think the cycling community benefits from my involvement, and my mode of transportation TO the event is not really all that significant. I cycle when I can, and where I can. (And no, I don't think that you were directing your original comment at me, or at any other individual.)


swalfoort
2010-06-15 13:31:29

I just find it Ironic to see bikes being driven around on cars. My wife has a huge truck, sometimes Me, her and the baby go places in it. The other day I had her drive a few bikes in it. I'm not hating on people that drive, If I did it would be a very lonely life. I just think cars are obsolete and expensive, they use an inordinate amount of energy and the landscape has been destroyed to make room for roadways, Oh and then there's the pollution. I think when my daughter is grown, the question kids will ask each other is "did your family have a car?"


timito
2010-06-15 13:50:53

Heaven forbid Timito finds out about this.


But seriously folks, NOT in this thread. Please. Move elsewhere. This banter is offensive to the original intent of the thread.


joeframbach
2010-06-15 13:54:51

yeah, timito, we've had this conversation a bajillion times, let's keep this thread on point. feel free to start another one, please.


erok
2010-06-15 15:09:26

he already did, and he's still arguing about it here too. if it keeps up can you lock the thread for at least a little while before it gets totally ruined?


cburch
2010-06-15 15:35:29

CNN has an article on States cracking down on distracted driving...


http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/06/15/us.distracted.driving/index.html


While I know it is too late for Don, this does give me hope that maybe through these efforts from the various USA States, more lives (drivers, cyclists, pedestrians), will be saved. Also, very important and key in here, to recognize that this has become a huge problem in our society.


Perhaps this is an opportunity to the Police Enforcement and the 'mystery kid' who was behind the wheel trying to grab his flip-flop when he killed Don, to speak up and show what kind of repercussions 'distracted driving' has.....


EDIT...


I wonder where one could get a copy of this report. It would be interesting to see what kind of efforts to curb this are being done in other States, and also see what kind of penalties and legal repercussions are growing because of this... hrm


EDIT...


More here!


http://www.streetinsider.com/Press+Releases/New+Report+Shows+States+Increasing+Efforts+on+Distracted+Driving/5730821.html


EDIT...


The big kahuna here! I'm gonna give it a read tonight...


http://www.ghsa.org/html/publications/survey/pdf/2010_distraction.pdf


bikeygirl
2010-06-15 17:00:46

from above article : "States are using new technology to educate motorists. Fifteen states and D.C. are using social networking sites like Twitter and Facebook to promote anti-distracted driving messages"


...and I'm sure that some people are reading those mesages from the comfort of thier cars! It seams to me that technology is making car driving more dangerous no? Like the people who follow their GPS thingys no matter how stupid the directions are. Sigh.


marko82
2010-06-15 18:47:46

Hah. That's exactly what I thought regarding global networking sites. Maybe the gub'mint can send text messages, too!


bjanaszek
2010-06-15 18:52:16

Y'mean like this?


stuinmccandless
2010-06-15 20:31:58

Just wondering if any charges have been filed yet, or if the driver's identity has been leaked. Someone here must know someone who knows someone with a kid enrolled at Fox Chapel High... there has to be some rumors floating around.


quizbot
2010-06-17 03:01:48

I had the chance to talk to a Post Gazette reporter after the bike ceremony downtown today. He said he was interested in the attacks in the East end and biker safety. During our conversation I mentioned Don's death and how the driver's name hasn't been released, nor have charges been filed. He seemed very interested and I suggested that he check out the discussion here on this board. His name is Anthony Fenech so keep an eye on the thread, hopefully he’ll show up looking for our viewpoints.


marko82
2010-06-17 03:20:21

That's good -thanks Marko!


I read the newly issued report on 'Distracted Driving' by the GHSA and looked into Pennsylvania's steps towards improving, and while they are listed that they are pursuing different venues (internet, etc), it all looks to be 'only' on paper, and not actively pursued, which upsets me. In the least, I'm glad that data is being collected regarding this issue (distracted driving).


bikeygirl
2010-06-17 04:20:50

The driver's name is not being withheld because he comes from a wealthy family (it's actually completely opposite of that) and they have no political ties. His name is being withheld because he is a minor.


shar145
2010-06-27 06:25:42

Saw this on CNN with headline "Flip-Flops Bad for your feet".


I thought it was going be also about how Flip-Flops are unsafe to wear for driving, but no such luck... that should have been pointed out too.


http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/health/2010/06/27/hm.flip.flop.fears.cnn


@quizbot: Nope... no charges so far. Can someone find out?


@shar145: Personally, I don't care to know the identity of the person who killed Don, or if they have money or not. My main concern is that formal charges are filled on this. Don's death by definition was not an accident, but negligent driving. Don's death could have been avoided had the driver been paying attention to the road. The driver, regardless of age or position, should be formally charged -period.


bikeygirl
2010-06-28 14:51:15

actually, don's death was the very definition of "accident". negligent driving may have been the cause of the accident.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-28 16:05:47

@Hidden Hrm.... yes, sorries- accident caused by negligent/reckless driving.


bikeygirl
2010-06-28 16:28:51

I could have sworn the "Ghost Bike" tribute was missing from the top of the hill when I drove by Harts Run Road tonight...really bums me out to think somebody took it.


Anybody else notice it missing, or am I losing it?


rocco
2010-06-30 01:00:09

mary robb jackson did a piece on it at 5pm today and they showed it still in place from what i assume was earlier today. it was for sure there on sunday when i drove past it.


stefb
2010-06-30 01:12:51

OK, sorry for the false alarm...I must be more overworked than I thought.


rocco
2010-06-30 01:19:21

It just blows my mind how it only took a day for charges to be filed in the Mt. Lebo case, and STILL nothing in Don Parker's case a month after the fact.


quizbot
2010-06-30 18:41:00

Rocco, you're not overworked. went by it twice Tuesday evening. It is gone. Not a trace left.


skinnychris
2010-06-30 18:49:33

That KDKA report was good, and I hope they keep at it and asking questions..... charges and sentencing should definitely be applied to the driver in this, what could have been, a preventable accident.


But also... what more investigation is taking place? Maybe trying to charge the flip-flop company for making 'unsafe flip-flops' not suitable for driving?


And really? The bike is gone? skynnychris: introduce yourself please.


bikeygirl
2010-06-30 18:58:46

Only children would remove a ghost bike - or, any form of roadside memorial. perhaps acquaintances of the flip-flopper?


sloaps
2010-06-30 19:08:43

perhaps, if it is true, the ghost bike has been removed for the very same reasons no charges have been filed yet.


I'm also curious about why driver who killed the mother with the stroller who died in Mt Lebo has been treated differently than the teen who killed Don Parker. Family vs. Criminal court and sentencing are the appropriate places for age determined responsibility level to come in to play, not in charges.


I think if the ghost bike really has been removed, and not to be refurbished and returned, perhaps another memorial ride is needed, because simply removing the bike will not change the fact that a man was killed.


ejwme
2010-06-30 19:30:01

I'm guessing it was just someone in the neighborhood who did not like it there. I'd be surprised if someone connected to flip-flop boy removed it.


mick
2010-06-30 19:34:00

@ejwme I will check the site after work today. If the bike is really off, I think you are right: we should plan a bigger memorial-bike ride there....


bikeygirl
2010-06-30 19:36:10

I'm also curious about why driver who killed the mother with the stroller who died in Mt Lebo has been treated differently than the teen who killed Don Parker.


they're pretty different situations. don parker was apparently killed by a distracted motorist traveling along a normal driving trajectory, whereas the mount lebanon thing involved someone running a stop sign while apparently driving under the influence of something. additionally, the motorist responsible for don parker's death was a minor, whereas the mount lebanon driver was merely underage. those cases have always been treated differently.


hiddenvariable
2010-06-30 19:49:33

The fact that it was a minor who was not under the influence and was driving within his lane does not mitigate the fact that he struck a vehicle that had right of way and a human died. That's been rehashed to death on this thread. Trying him as a minor and reflecting the circumstances in any sentencing that may happen are ways to deal with that. Not by silence.


Whether the ghost bike was removed (if it was, pending bikeygirl's confirmation [thank you!]) by a friend of the teen (which I too doubt, just my gut saying that) or a neighbor who didn't like the looks, it simply points to the fact that someone out there doesn't understand the gravity of the situation. It's not there to shame the teen or mar a view. It's there to remind every human who passes it to be careful, a horrid and preventable tragedy happened in that location. Removing it indicates a complete lack of understanding at best, and a callous disregard for life at worst.


ejwme
2010-06-30 20:22:03

.... a complete lack of understanding at best, and a callous disregard for life at worst.


I've never understood the mentality of the suburb dweller, but this sentence seems to capture it pretty well.


mick
2010-06-30 20:27:42

Anyone in that area know when trash night is? I wouldn't be too surprised if someone swiped the bike only to junk it.


2nd possibility, someone swiped it "to get a free bicycle", not realizing ndromb makes these bikes unfixable. (It was pretty much shot when he got it from FreeRide, AFAIK.)


Most likely explanations: @Mick or @sloaps


Hmmm... Did it not go far? Is it just pitched into a nearby ravine?


stuinmccandless
2010-06-30 21:04:39

It was locked up with a pretty hefty chain. They would have to bring tools down there to remove it. Not an innocent trash pickup, for sure.


It was either county/township road crews or some asshole(s) on a f-them-bikers mission. I guess those two options aren't mutually exclusive, but in any case, that sucks. Seems like it disappeared right after the latest KDKA story aired, no?


dwillen
2010-06-30 21:20:50

That sucks. Does someone feel up to making a friendly non-hostile call to the township to find out if maybe they removed it? The agencies in charge of road maintenance are within their jurisdiction to remove such things, most of the time they get left alone because it would be such bad p.r. to start ripping them all these memorials down.

The cynic in me really thinks it seems like someone wants to let this blow over a.s.a.p.


edmonds59
2010-06-30 21:21:49

there was a ghost bike at the intersection of allegheny river blvd and sandy creek road (on my commute to/from monroeville) in the past 3 years. i may be mistaken, but parts (handlebars?) were removed from it over time before it was finally removed entirely. anyone remember this bike?


stefb
2010-06-30 21:23:40

ps - there was a yellow jersey hanging from don's ghostbike as well. i assume it was his and the family put it there?


stefb
2010-06-30 21:25:00

Let's us not get too excited about this yet.... I will go check today after work..... I'll be the first to fume if it was indeed taken!


bikeygirl
2010-06-30 21:30:28

I'll be the first to pitch in for a Ghost U-Lock


sgtjonson
2010-06-30 21:45:04

Ghost bike is DEFINITELY gone..... looks like it was never there.... I had to run to the BikeFest meeting and couldn't ask questions, but yeah... Ghostbike is gone.


If the family took it down, I have no problem. But if this was taken down to 'make the accident dissapear' ...... I'll be pissed


Discuss


bikeygirl
2010-06-30 23:44:59

Maybe a large white ghost bike just needs to be painted on the pavement. That would be difficult to take away.

There is a brief article in Bicycle Times related to this issue, about how how bike accidents were taken out of the criminal system and pushed into the civil system so someone, a victim or D.A., has to pursue the case through a lawsuit. It's messed up.


edmonds59
2010-07-01 00:47:39

OK, I hate to have to join in on the bitching, but WTF? I agree with those who thing that the County or Township took the bike, that was my first thought, too.


I mean, you've gotta be a pretty cold-hearted civilian to remove a tribute like that.


If the road maintenance folks *did* take the bike, then it's probably not worth the effort of getting into a battle with them...I wonder if someone approached the owners of that little convenience store (that's about 25 feet from where the bike was) -- I wonder if they'd let us put the bike on their property. The County/Township can't complain about that.


I don't know the owners from Adam, but I drive past the place every afternoon, and I'd be glad to approach them about it...


rocco
2010-07-01 02:29:39

Messed up +1.


I've been avoiding Fox Chapel on my Sunday rides as much as possible since the accident... the Red Belt is about as close as I'll go out there. My aversion to it is like ELB at night.


That being said, had a close call on the Red Belt last Sunday. Dropped my chain going into a climb, and was 5 feet off the berm into someone's yard fixing it... was looking back into the lane & some idiot is drifting into the berm headed straight for me about 50 yards behind me going 40 mph. At first I thought it was intentional, but he was simply not looking ahead. I yelled, and he snapped out of whatever he was preoccupied with. Had it been 30 seconds earlier, I would have definitely been hit. Caught up with the dude a few mi down the road (he was headed back in the opposite direction at a stop sign) and somewhat calmly read him the riot act on paying attention behind the wheel. It ended up being a positive exchange.


quizbot
2010-07-01 02:48:15

Yet makeshift memorials (crosses, photos, flowers, etc.) for auto accident victims stay up for YEARS. To the point of becoming landmarks themselves.


noah-mustion
2010-07-01 02:49:01

Good idea.... put up a cross. Nobody will screw around with that.


Mary Robb Jackson may also want to hear about the missing Ghost Bike.


quizbot
2010-07-01 03:02:34

a human being with opposable thumbs took the ghost bike down. "I was following orders/rules" is not an excuse. Being a member of the family would be the only thing that would reign in the tirade running in my head, so I'll assume it was his wife just to preserve my sanity.


Rocco - I have to respectfully disagree. If it was road maintenance, then this is exactly the fight that the ghost bike is intended for. A man died. He was on a bike. It was avoidable. Removing that message is removing the opportunity to transmit that message to every motorist (and cyclist and pedestrian) that passes that place. It's saying "Status Quo is Fine." It's saying his death was UNavoidable, a faultless accident, an act of god.


edited to add - Mick, careful, you quoted a suburbanite to bash them. What a weird way to use someone's words against them!


ejwme
2010-07-01 13:02:17

I agree. If someone was "just following orders", then Someone In Charge has to have his/her mind changed.


"Take names and kick ass."


stuinmccandless
2010-07-01 14:54:25

Personally, I like Noah's idea of the traditional cross at the site, but perhaps with a twist: maybe a mini ghost bike, or a bike icon of some kind. Something like this would have to be put through the family of course. Anyone taking down something like this, well also like Noah said, would be unthinkable as the roadside crosses seem to stay in place for YEARS.


impala26
2010-07-01 15:52:02

Oh I didn't suggest putting up a cross... just pointing out that those tend to stay up forever.


noah-mustion
2010-07-01 16:07:36

a cross with a crushed (from a crash?) bike helmet super glued or cemented in place would work. Or sink the bottom 5 inches of ghost bike wheels in a giant cement block. But these would all have to be cleared with the family, maybe municipality or whoever owned the property. Could be the property owners were just pissed off at not being consulted.


ejwme
2010-07-01 16:40:35

The bike was locked with a 3/8" hardened steel chain and a 3/8" shackle lock. For it to be removed, you'd need 24" bolt cutters.


Does anyone know of a way to find out if the family removed it? If so, I think we should leave the site be.


If the family didn't remove it, I can have another ghost bike up there early next week.


I also already have a u-lock painted white.


ndromb
2010-07-01 17:36:43

Wasn't there a reporter who was trying to follow this? Didn't someone have a contact for him? It seems like he would be a legit person to try and find out what happened, he would probably have a contact for the family and township, etc.


edmonds59
2010-07-01 18:55:47

I could contact a sister in-law of Don's to find out if the family removed it. Seems unlikely that somebody in the family would remove a memorial. Seems especially unlikely that a road crew would remove a memorial.


sgtjonson
2010-07-01 21:19:16

Except that I saw this quote in that 2008 article edmonds59 linked to a couple posts ago:


Each state has different rules.


Pennsylvania, for example, officially prohibits memorials but won't bother a family over one unless it's a hazard of some sort.



stuinmccandless
2010-07-01 22:01:46

Seems especially unlikely that a road crew would remove a memorial.


It's possible that a local road crew would have no idea it was a memorial.


mick
2010-07-01 22:25:20

@Mick -- there was a huge plexiglass sign on the ghost bike saying that it was there because a cyclist died. Nobody could say they didn't understand the point, so whoever took it did so knowing what they were taking.


rocco
2010-07-01 22:42:15

[Photo by Rob de la Cretaz]


Looks like a roadside memorial to me...


Plus, with all the coverage this got, there isn't anyone who doesn't know what it is.


ndromb
2010-07-01 23:07:49

I'm shocked to hear the ghost bike has been removed. It wasn't a family member who removed it. I found this site by accident and I'm pleased to see how many beside myself can not understand why something hasn't been done to justify Don's death.I emailed the DA myself today to state my feeling of this taking so very long. My son is gone while the driver goes on with his life.


aleen-mary
2010-07-02 00:46:29

I'm starting to fear that this was done because of the driver. A common theme of this whole case seems to be forces that be wanting to cover up the driver's identity and the event in general. The removal of the ghost bike this soon reeks of the same stench.


On the other hand, I suppose it could have been the owner of the Citgo/Jack's Pizza or nearby residents seeing the ghost bike as "unsightly" or something and wanting it removed. In either case, I don't think we as bike advocates are done here with this.


impala26
2010-07-02 01:13:08

thanks for coming by to post Aleen. Don's death has really affected the cycling community, and I think in general we all want to make sure that it doesn't pass as an unnoticed "accident" by the rest of the community as a whole.


I'm up for doing another group ride out there. I missed the first one.


tabby
2010-07-02 02:33:09

I also missed the first one, and would like to participate. Like I said before, auto accident memorials stay up forever, I think a ghost bike is absolutely necessary. Putting up a second one would be a huge gesture - to Don's family, to the community, and to anti-cycling wahoos that, no, we won't let this tragedy be forgotten. Let's make this happen.


noah-mustion
2010-07-02 02:48:47

Thank you Tabby, I do appreciate all the backing I see in all these notes I have been reading. It is helping me get through the loss of my son to see how many other lives he has touched in a positive way.


aleen-mary
2010-07-02 02:54:13

Aleen, I am so sorry to hear about your loss. Although I can only imagine your pain, know that you have a very strong community behind you.


Although, I never knew your son, I feel as if I should do everything I can to raise attention to the situation, because that's what I would want my friends to do.


If it is ok with the family, I will have another ghost bike up there early next week.


If there is anything any of us can do to help, don't hesitate to ask.


ndromb
2010-07-02 05:29:27

ndromb I think the replacement of the "Ghost Bike" is a great idea as long as it doesn't get any of you participating in trouble. Thank you for you kind words that is what is helping me get through all this. Although the pain will never go away I will learn to deal with it.

I would like to see too some sort of a law against driver wearing flip flops while driving. Chances are if this driver wasn't trying to drive and reach down to straighten his flip flop this may of never happened.


aleen-mary
2010-07-02 11:20:30

Aleen Mary, welcome, all I can say is you and your family have my deepest sympathies for your loss.

Since it seems to be a complete mystery as to what happened to the ghost bike, is there any way you or someone in your family could ask around your community to try and find out? Was it the township, a road crew, the convenience store owner? I don't like to jump to conclusions and think that it was someone trying to sweep things under the rug, but if we can eliminate the parties who would have a reasonable explanation for removing it, that would provide some answers. I would kind of like to know before anyone puts up another one.


edmonds59
2010-07-02 11:47:40

I'll see what I can find out. I live in the South Hills as does most of the rest of the family. Don, his wife Jan and their three children Stephanie, Mark and Rachel lived in Hampton.


aleen-mary
2010-07-02 12:03:18

Aleen, I'm so sorry for your loss. I never met Don, but by all accounts it sounds like you raised a son who made the world a much better place. Even though I don't know you, I've never before wished so hard I could send a real hug over the internet!


My grandparents spent 40 years living in Hampton Township, my cousins and sister rode their bikes on those roads, and I occasionally head up that way on my bike "for old time's sake". It could have been any of us. That's why we all need the memorial. To remember Don, and to let him teach us all to be more mindful while we're using public roads. Because it doesn't have to be any of us.


I'd like to somehow make sure that the nearby property owners (not just the people running the convenience store, but the people who own the property touching the road where the ghost bike is placed) are involved. When you leave the city, there's a large contingent of people that get REALLY territorial. From my experience, they'll let you do just about anything you like, if you ask. Not asking is the fastest way to get shut down, often in rather severe, impolite ways - trespassing is taken seriously. I'm not saying that's the case here, but it's as easy as a knock on a door and a 5 minute conversation. Besides, they can then be an ally ("Don't touch that, that's on my land by my permission!"). Not just the landowner, but any landuser (renters, etc). It's a community thing.


ejwme
2010-07-02 16:20:44

Dear Aleen, I'm very sorry for your lost.... I don't know what else to say, except that your son's untimely passing has really touched us all, and as we are able, we are trying to honor his life and make sure that reckless accidents like this don't happen again -nor are forgotten.


Everyone: Sorry for the delay in posting the photos I took at the ghostbike site, but I have been busy.


Here are the photos of the site as-of wednesday 6/30 at 6:45pm. As you will notice, it looks like nothing ever happened in there..... really pisses the heck out-of me off. I'm definitely leaning towards 'individuals related to the driver' as having taken the bike down. There is no-one-else who would be interested in touching a memorial like this, except the people who want it to 'go away'.


I so wanna know the name of the driver now..... I think that childish behavior like this -trolling comments, taking memorials down, claiming that the driver is/was 'but a distracted kid', months now of investigation with still NO CHARGES being made; is doing more harm to their case, and to the memory of Mr. Parker...


Shame on you..... SOMETHING happened here, and real acknowledgement of it needs to be made.





bikeygirl
2010-07-02 16:24:22

Aleen, my deepest sympathies to you and the rest of your family. I never met your son, but hopefully some good will come out this senseless tragedy in the form of education and awareness for both cyclist and drivers. I attended the Silent-Ride conducted in Don’s memory on Memorial Day and remember how lush and green the valley roads were, and how enjoyable his daily commute must have been. He sounds like he was a remarkable person.


marko82
2010-07-02 17:06:27

A comment on the ghost bike - It could be that whoever is contracted to cut the grass for the gas station removed the bike so they didn’t have to trim around it. This by no means makes its removal any less infuriating, but it could be an issue with having the bike in a grassy area. Maybe a stone chip circle around the bike would be more maintenance friendly.


marko82
2010-07-02 17:07:03

Not being snide, just a thought, most landscapers probaby don't carry 24" bolt cutters or battery powered angle grinders, just saying.


edmonds59
2010-07-02 17:19:02

Bill, I would probably BUY bolt cutters if it was the third or fourth time my guys had to trim around it and didn't know or care about the bikes significance.


marko82
2010-07-02 17:32:48

As someone who did landscaping for a very short period, I always carried something capable of cutting chain and fence links.


Has anyone tried to contact the owner of the Citgo? Seems like he might be a good lead, seeing as he didnt have any issues with the bike when we placed it.


robjdlc
2010-07-02 18:02:17

Marko82 - there's no way someone didn't know. "5/27/2010; cyclist, husband, father of three was struck and KILLED HERE" Big letters.


Given the tools involved, it was calculated, planned, intentional. They didn't care. It's our job, as part of the community, to let them know through our actions that this apathy is unacceptable and unsupported by the community at large. That's why we need to find the full story, get the municipality's position, and involve the land owner.


ejwme
2010-07-02 18:02:25

photo embed test

< img src="http://picasaweb.google.com/114752395576120643585/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCLigv7Wa7KeT5QE#5489368808088510194">


boazo
2010-07-02 18:26:00

Photo embed fix:




robjdlc
2010-07-02 18:26:49

Thanks for the fix !

heres one more

< img src= "


http://picasaweb.google.com/114752395576120643585/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCLigv7Wa7KeT5QE&pli=1&gsessionid=Xkq9dlyymaf2FSnb8LHX2g#5489377613116574322" >





These show, I believe, that the place where this all happened is owned the Western PA Conservancy and zoned as Public Park. I think the original ghost bike was a little above where the accident actually happened anyway. Maybe we could make a super nice memorial in this park land ? Its probably run by the Beechwood Nature Reserve.


boazo
2010-07-02 18:33:40

Beechwood farms is leased to the audubon society of western PA, so the audubon people might be involved as well.


ejwme
2010-07-02 18:43:50

Cross posting from ndromb's facebook to keep you folks updated:


With the information available to me at this time, I can say, public works did not remove it, the police did not remove it, the manager of the gas station whose property it was on did not remove it, and the family od Don Parker did not remove it.


I have heard from a member of his family, and two cyclists who live in the area, and there will be a replacement ghost bike locked up next week. I will make the details availible when they are decided.


We will not be painting the road, we will not be permanently attaching the bike, and we MOST DEFINITELY will not be using red paint.


I think our best option is to do what we did before- peacefully and lovingly place a somber memorial for our fallen brother.





Boazo, to embed an image from the links your posting, go to the image page, right click the image, click "copy image location" or whatever similar option is available, then use img src="paste into here", with less than greater than around it. If what you paste into those quotes doesn't end in a file extension like jpg or png, it wont work.


robjdlc
2010-07-02 18:54:36

thanks robjdlc.


ejwme
2010-07-02 18:58:23

I had an email from Don's wife Jan this morning and she told me the bike was there on Tuesday morning and was gone when she passed again Tuesday evening. So who ever removed it did so in the light of day/

I just spoke with Matt Smith and he is looking the missing bike for me also he will talk to the DA and find out where he is in the investigation. When hear more I will let you know.


aleen-mary
2010-07-02 19:02:58

@robjdlc I agree..... let's do what we did before: a peacefully and lovingly memorial for Don.


Besides bringing the new ghostbike, I would also recommend doing a ride there, once again starting from the Waterworks Mall. Last time we were about 80 people on bikes.... let's get more people this time around!


bikeygirl
2010-07-02 19:22:11

So, like Rob re-posted from my Facebook (I can't get on the board from my phone), I am working on getting a new bike up there early to mid-next week.


For the time being, I plan on putting it back where it was. Although it is private property, it seems the property managers have no issue with it being there.


I think it needs to go back where it was to show who ever took it that you cannot erase what happened.


Unfortunately, the logistics around riding with the ghost to the lock-up make it unrealistic, if someone would like to organize a ride around the re-lock-up, I think it could be a good idea.


ndromb
2010-07-02 21:33:39

So my friend who owns the metal shop across from the citgo talked to the attendant there, who seemed like a real dick about it. He said he didn't care about it and that it "wasn't supposed to be there anyway" that it was "on our property and they never got our permission." The kid was the son of the owner.


robjdlc
2010-07-02 22:37:40

He didn't care, but was agitated it was placed on their property (which it wasn't) without their permission?


Well then I don't care that he doesn't care and I will let him know about how my degree of not caring is greater than his.


sloaps
2010-07-02 23:08:16

So did the gas station people remove it? I'm 99.99% sure that it was locked on public land, not "their property".


dwillen
2010-07-02 23:19:59

I went out there today and walked down Harts Run from Dorseyville Road to Mallard Drive. There is a tiny wooden cross in the shoulder, just a bit up the hill from Mallard, I suspect the exact location where Don Parker got hit. A sticker on a nearby tree confirms that the adjoining land is an Audubon/Conservancy area.


I put a couple new photos on my Facebook album. (Don't get too excited; my cell phone has a crappy camera.)


stuinmccandless
2010-07-03 20:50:24

Where you saw the wooden cross is where Don's brother Richard placed it after talking to the police for the exact location. He said he is intending to eventually put a larger wooden cross.


aleen-mary
2010-07-03 22:00:37

maybe we should contact the audubon society and see if we can put up a more permanent ghost bike memorial there?


cburch
2010-07-04 02:48:14

Already on it, Colin.


ndromb
2010-07-04 04:10:45

perfect


cburch
2010-07-04 05:19:29

There aren't enough words to thank you for all that you are doing to keep the memory to Don alive.

Following is a letter my husband sent into the paper whether it will be printed or not we don't know yet.

On May 27 th my step-son Donald Parker Jr., was killed while riding his bicycle on Hart's Run Road practicing for his annual 150 mile fund-raising ride for MS, when he was struck from behind by a pickup truck. Shortly after that a large group of very nice people, friends, relatives, bicyclists and many people who, even though they didn't know Don, just wanted to show their respect for him and the type of person he was, erected a memorial near the scene of the incident. Among the items left there was a white bicycle, referred to as a "Ghost Bike." The bicycle was taken by someone this past week. As far as I can learn it was seen there early Tuesday and gone by evening the same day. While it may never be known who took it or why, my wife and I speaking for the entire family wish to express our gratitude to all those who took part in erecting the memorial, and to all who sent their expressions of sympathy, not only in cards but in donations to the Multiple Sclerosis Society in Don's name. The bicycle may be gone but our memories of Don and all you nice people who cared about him, will last our entire lifetimes, thank you ! Jack and Aleen Croyle


aleen-mary
2010-07-04 11:11:39

Thank you for posting the letter Aleen Mary. Please let us know how else we can help. This is a tight knit community and we will always stand up for and support our fellow bicyclists and their families. I sent you my phone number the other day, please don't hesitate to call.


scott
2010-07-04 14:03:58

I have your phone number Scott and I really appreciate the support I'm receiving knowing how many peple care about what happened to Don.

I also wrote a short letter to the Trib and again whether it get published or not is another thing.


In reference to the article in Sundays Living section "Roadside shrines help loved ones deal with tragedy"

The "Ghost Bike" placed in memory of Donald Parker who was struck and killed May 27,2010 was removed this past Tuesday by some uncaring person or persons. Did they give any thought to the healing of Don's family? Absolutely not!!!


aleen-mary
2010-07-04 14:37:36

Aleen, I sent a letter to the ASWP abotu putting the new ghost bike on their land.


I am going to wait for a reply before erecting the new bike, but if I don't hear from them by the end of the week, it will be going up Friday.


ndromb
2010-07-04 16:20:39

Thank you, I will let our family know.


aleen-mary
2010-07-04 18:02:06

I am talking with someone from the Audubon Society tomorrow about putting a new ghost bike on their land.


ndromb
2010-07-07 03:42:27

I just got off the phone with the executive director at the ASWP about putting a new ghost bike out. He said they have no precedent for such a thing and have to do some research before setting one.


I am going to hold off doing anything until we have a definitive answer from the ASWP. If they decline my request, we will have to come up with a contingency plan.


ndromb
2010-07-07 14:41:33

I wonder what they would say about a wooden cross instead of a bike. If a difference, why? Any problem with both? With either?


stuinmccandless
2010-07-07 15:00:16

One point her brought up was if the ghost bike could be a dangerous distraction. I said, it really comes down to the driver. I could definitely see how it could be argued to be a distraction. However, almost anything could be argued as a distraction.


Let's ban all pretty girls from 50ft within any road.


I'm not really sure which way the ASWP is going to go. He was very PC and ambiguous the whole conversation.


ndromb
2010-07-07 15:23:38

one can understand his concerns, at least a little bit. based on what you say, it sounds like the whole idea of it caught him off guard, and his first thoughts were "what could go wrong?" everyone has liability concerns, and surely they want control of their land, so would prefer to establish a procedure for granting permission, rather than just saying "go ahead" and (in their mind) opening the door to anyone who wants to post anything on their land (content-based discrimination free speech concerns, perhaps?).


it seems to me their concerns can all be easily mollified, and i hope they reach that conclusion, but i don't blame them for taking a moment to think about it.


hiddenvariable
2010-07-07 15:39:31

I completely understand his concerns. Like I said I agree with him completely.


I don't know how my last post came off, but i really appreciate the fact they are even considering it. I expected a standard form email saying, "no."


He also brought up the point that the state has control over the land for a certain distance from the center line. He believes it is 50-60ft.


This would lead me to believe, that a road side memorial put on the side of the road is really only in the control of the state and not the land owner.


ndromb
2010-07-07 15:48:47

If you zoom in as far as possible on google maps you can see the right-of-way... it's somewhere around here right?


salty
2010-07-07 15:58:43

Hmmmm...


I wondering if it would help if Aleen, or someone, from the family called?


Nick, I'm sure you let him know that you had the victim's family's support, but if the family actually gets involved it could make a difference.


If this couold be done ona weekend or evening, then there could be a ride out there. I imagine it would be a large one.


mick
2010-07-07 16:02:46

It's absolutely right about the right-of-way line. A 50 to 60 ft ROW is common for roads, so the actual property line would be 25 to 30 feet from the center line of the road. This allows the state or whomever to have a shoulder, place road signs, etc. Property owners don't allow road signs on their property out of civic good will. The statement by the convenience store owners son, about the bike being on "their property" is complete horse-shizzle. the idiot.


edmonds59
2010-07-07 17:05:15

Mick, though I'm sure it wouldn't hurt, I don't think it really matters who contacts the ASWP. I think their decision really comes down to legality, business, and politics.


I plan to wait patiently for the decision and go from there.


ndromb
2010-07-07 18:01:55

Just for reference purposes, here's a photo from the Ride of Silence for Don Parker:



More images linked in the above thread.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-07 18:18:17

A Right of Way means someone has limited control over a piece of property in addition to the property owner. Not instead of.


lyle
2010-07-07 20:50:46

Are you thinking of an "easement"? A plot of private property never extends into a roadway right-of-way, does it? Everything I've seen has the property line meet the road r-o-w, and not beyond into the road.


edmonds59
2010-07-07 21:10:11

Actually, I thought the property line went right to the centerline of the road.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-07 21:17:14

Lyle - I don't believe that is true, at least not in this context. This document certainly makes it sound like the state acquires any land it uses for roads. I believe Harts Run Road is a state road (SR1010?). Even if it's not, it wouldn't surprise me if the county/township/etc own the land.


From that picture above I'd say the bike is almost certainly on state property because the sign it's chained to is almost certainly on state property.


So, I think it's irrelevant who owns the adjacent property, but why are we sure it belongs to the Audubon Society and not the gas station? It's hard to tell from the picture.


salty
2010-07-07 21:32:23

The land where the ghost bike was is adjacent to the gas station's property. The land where Don was killed is adjacent to ASWP property.


ndromb
2010-07-07 22:20:06

I'll call tomorrow to the Audubon Society and tell them family does approve of putting up another memorial.

I'm sure family members will be there too, we will just need to know when.


aleen-mary
2010-07-07 22:49:50

The ghost bike would tie into the ASWP education mission also. Its easy to visualize a trail leading to it branching off from their existing trails. Schools use them for educational purposes on nature field trips and such. So the ghost bike could be a stop along the the trails. Its especially appropro considering the driver was a school student.


boazo
2010-07-08 12:44:31

On right-of-way / ownership / liability issues:


In the city, far as I can remember, sidewalks are public spaces (as in the adjacent property owner can't block it off and deny access by, say, parking their car over it), but the property owner is responsible for clearing the snow and maintaining a passable route. I'm fuzzy on if a random person walking by trips and falls (and it's NOT snowy/icy), who they would have to sue for medical bill payment.


I think the Citgo owner/son were just pissed that that was 75 people NOT buying their gas. On the next ride? I'll take an extra waterbottle and snack from home to avoid patronizing that place. Mean people suck.


ejwme
2010-07-08 13:34:58

A right of way is a kind of easement, yes. My point was that, technically, someone else might *own* the property through which the state holds a right-of-way, and they still have the right to limited control of that property (defined by whatever the terms of the right-of-way are). Including, for example, the right to prevent you from placing political campaign signs. Just because the state owns a right-of-way for the roadway doesn't necessarily mean that they own the property itself (they might, they might not). Now, if you want a real expert, find someone who has been involved in building a rail-trail.


@ejwme: the property owner could certainly be liable for injury suffered by a pedestrian on a sidewalk. This is why people have homeowner's insurance.


lyle
2010-07-08 15:47:38

My understanding of rights-of way is somewhat narrow from being involved in municipal politics, but this is my take on it:


It is likely the municipality or county or state owns the property beneath the road and grants a "right of way" (via the road) for the citizenry to pass on (ie. cycle, drive, etc.). That "right of way" often extends a certain number of feet from the centerline, after which the homeowner's, or in the case, the Audubon Society's property line begins.


Often it is not clear-cut as to where the property line is between the right of way and the private property, and so property owners often assume ownership beyond what they actually do own.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-08 16:01:13

Right. All I'm saying is, you can't know who owns what just by looking at it, unless you see the deeds...


lyle
2010-07-08 16:24:29

Regardless, the next property down from the citgo station is a private residence that may be approachable should the Audobon society nix the idea. I don't know them, but the parcel search indicated different names than the citgo land owner, so they may be more welcoming (I'm not posting their names here for whatever respect for their privacy I can give them, the county doesn't afford them much). That and it's their home that people are being killed in front of / near. So we're not out of options.


ejwme
2010-07-08 16:42:28

I am still in a state of disbelief that this man was killed by a negligent driver and there has been no charges nor any real update into the "investigation". The driver took his eyes off the road long enough to kill someone!


sarah_q
2010-07-08 16:55:18

I just spoke with Scott Bricker and gave him this information. The "Ghost Bike" is at the Saxonburg Penn Dot Garage, that apparently is who removed it. He is going to look into getting it back. Seems that Penn Dot doesn't like memorials put up on their roads.

I also called the Audubon Society and told them the family does not object to a memorial being put up for Don.


aleen-mary
2010-07-08 16:56:51

Aleen, Scott just called me with the information you gave him.


I called Mr. Allers at PennDot and he said I am welcome to pick it up anytime at the Saxonburg PennDot Station. He was not open to starting any further conversation about the legality around road side memorials, why it was removed, or what we could do, but he did tell me to contact his manager, Bob Crawford. I just called him and left a message to see if we can open a dialog about road side memorials.


This became very messy very fast. I will do my best to make sure we, as a community, can do something to memorialize Don. However, I have a feeling this is just the beginning of a very long process...


ndromb
2010-07-08 17:19:14

Pardon my sarcasm...... but perhaps instead of putting a 'ghost bike', let's put a huge sign saying something like this ....


..... "it is ok to complaint and be upset about a roadside memorial for a Son & Father of 3 Children who was untimely killed by a careless driver; but not to complaint and ask for criminal charges against the driver who killed such Father because the driver took-off his eyes off the road to fix his flip-flops"...


Man, what kind of community is that? Makes me sick AND SHAME ON THEM!!!!


Edit: I'm so sorry Aileen Mary about all this.... I just think this new blow is awful


bikeygirl
2010-07-08 17:27:49

Regarding rights-of-way vs. property rights: I had a conversation last year with Jon Smith, who was/is with the Allegheny County Transit Council, about re-installing streetcars/light rail in Pittsburgh. He said one major impediment is that former trolley easments had lapsed, and you'd have to get sign-offs from all the property owners along the route. Outside of downtown, he said, property lines went to the center line of the road and there is a right-of-way, while downtown, the city owned the full width of the street.


I would tend to believe that, but don't know for sure. We were talking in the context of urban and downtown streets, and there may be different rules for suburban and/or state-owned roads.


Re: PennDOT removing Don's roadside memorial, they have got their work cut out for them if they are going to start removing all of them. If they are removing some and leaving others, I wonder if that opens up free speech issues. How big is that warehouse?


ieverhart
2010-07-08 17:31:17

I hope the ghost-bike situation can be resolved even if it takes a little longer to resolve than most of us would like it to. But if it can't be worked out what is our plan B? I think a bike shaped flower bed might be ok'ed. Any other thoughts?


marko82
2010-07-08 17:33:47

@bikeygirl: Personally, I have placed myself in a position where I have to be careful with what is done with these ghost bikes. I do not condone doing anything about this until we have more information from PennDot and the ASWP. However, I cannot be held accountable for the actions of others.


@Ian: I believe this specific one was removed becuase of specific complaints. What bothers me is it seems PennDot and the members of the community who complained about the ghost bike are concerned about a roadside memorial being offensive. What more offensive, a man being killed by an irresponsible driver, or a group of individuals trying to honor that man and his family?


@marko: I'd like to stick to the ghost bike format, because I feel like like it has a very strong symbolic meaning. If we can't do that, I am open to almost anything.


---


I have a feeling that a letter writing campaign to state representatives may be in order...


ndromb
2010-07-08 17:49:32

Just lock another one up.


bradq
2010-07-08 18:02:50

I see at least three major pieces to this:

A) Getting a proper memorial for Don Parker installed, somewhere, permanently

B) Changing the way we educate our young people (e.g., driver ed classes) so that cyclists can use the roads without fear of getting killed by young motorists

C) Changing laws and processes (e.g., driver license renewals) so that cyclists can use the roads without fear of getting killed by older motorists


I can think of no better way to make something good come out of Don's death than using it as a catalyst to effect real change in Pennsylvania's treatment of cyclists and cycling.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-08 18:14:33

Brad, my biggest concern with just locking another one up is, it's just going to get removed, and it will be a never ending pissing match.


If someone wants to lock another one up today, I have no issue with it. However, I am going to try my best to get proper approval so we can take some time and make a nice more permanent memorial.


ndromb
2010-07-08 18:18:31

@ Nick ..... I know, I was just being sarcastic with that post. Doing something like that would be asking for trouble, but seriously... I just put it up as 'food for thought'.... because SERIOUSLY! What kind of 'community' is that??


Other than that Nick, I really thank you and admire you for putting up this bikes and doing the follow-ups in this process which is indeed turning sour.... But as you know, I get very fired-up by situations like this, specially when I see so much unfairness and just apathy by both the justice system, and now the community as well.


EDIT: Someone should contact the media about this new development. You always hear stories about communities being brought-together to support victims, or those of their own. BUT NEVER had I heard something about a community that seems to be joint-together to protect a 'criminal' and to disregard a victim....


bikeygirl
2010-07-08 18:34:55

i wonder if penndot could install a "your speed is" sign near where it happened combined with the memorial. i don't know if this driver was speeding, but it seems like speeding is a problem on this road. those signs seem very effective and could also add a practical reminder to people to slow down.


erok
2010-07-08 19:39:09

hunh... Can somebody post a list of roads that belong to Penn Dot? I've been mistakenly tresspassing all this time, but I didn't know! (That was my reaction to them not liking memorials on "their" road, if "their" is that Citgo station, I simply stand by my previous post - they'll get a penny from me if they can wrest it from my cold dead hand).


Flowers require maintenance. I mean more maintenance than a ghost bike. Unless you're like one of my neighbors, who plants plastic ones, but that seems wrong.


ejwme
2010-07-08 19:56:12

My understanding of roadside memorials is that PennDOT leaves them alone unless they are very distracting or offensive. It doesn't suprise me at all that members of the community would find a ghost bike offensive, where a floral cross probably would have been fine.


I think seeing the bike is a very strong visual and we should strive to get that replaced (thanks Nick for your efforts) but if that fails something more generic would still be nice to do.


eta: @ejwme I have one of those neighbors too! they actually have plastic flowers in planters with concrete poured in. it's so wrong.


tabby
2010-07-08 20:14:12

Some person on Greenfield Ave has a front lawn filled with plastic flowers. I walked by in March and had a few seconds of "holy hell, how did they get beautiful flowers this early?!?!" before I realized they were all plastic, neatly embedded in the Earth and surrounded by bark. I guess if you are running the stop sign at 20 mph in your car, you would never know they're not real.


dwillen
2010-07-08 20:21:03

What is more offensive, a memorial for a great man, or the senseless killing of a great man?


I think some could argue that a cross is just as offensive....


I have been in contact with members of media, everyone who has covered stories related to Don and the ghost bike know about it's removal.


I just got off the phone with a reporter from KDKA who says PennDot's PR person cannot confirm that they even removed it. However, they said it was in a dangerous place, and if it were a dangerous place, they would remove it....


I don't see how a memorial on the side of the road can be considered dangerous, when having a teen driver who lacks the logical skills to know how to drive is acceptable.


There is no need to thank me. I only do it because if it happened to me, I would hope it is what my friends would do.


ndromb
2010-07-08 21:13:05

As a temporary measure, it may be beneficial for anyone interested (or able) to find the small wooden cross placed by Don's brother and add to it. If a bunch of flowers and other mementos pop up, I think it could help show the community that we are not going to let the memory of this man and his death just be cut away.


ndromb
2010-07-08 21:26:00

My understanding of roadside memorials is that PennDOT leaves them alone unless they are very distracting or offensive. It doesn't suprise me at all that members of the community would find a ghost bike offensive...


I'm guessing that all it takes to remove a roadside memorial is one complaint. PennDOT certainly won't let us know who complained.


In this case, the complaint could have come from the Citgo. It could have come from the perp or his friends. It could have come from a homeowner who lives near the memorial.


IMO, the complaint most likely just came from some random person who didn't like it.


I don't think it is wise or productive to worry about their motivation, except in terms of "How can we get a memorial up and keep it up?"


The first ghost bike I saw? I found it very disturbing. I did not know why it was there. I thought it might be a work of avante guard art. I didn't like it. It was jarring.


Now? It is still jarring when I see one, but that is part of rationale - it SHOULD be jarring that "a bicyclist died here."


mick
2010-07-08 21:31:07

I agree a cross could be offensive. That's kind of my point, that crosses are put up as memorials all the time and left alone, sometimes for years. A ghost bike gets put up and somehow that is offensive and draws community complaints. Not cool about the bike or the fact that Don deserves a memorial (ahem and some justice too for the unnamed teen).


tabby
2010-07-08 21:33:55

But it's not like the ghost bike is vague in its meaning. It has a large sign that clearly states its intent.


noah-mustion
2010-07-08 21:42:20

... a very nice, professionally made sign at that.


ndromb
2010-07-08 21:50:30

i bet it was mike pintek who complained


stefb
2010-07-08 21:56:52

Now if Mike Pintek really wanted to improve his standing in the community, not just the cycling community but the community in general, he could be throwing his 50-kilowatt weight around in favor of a bike memorial, talking up how wonderful a guy Don Parker was, how cyclists do not get the respect they deserve, and how ghost bikes inform all of us that it's really important to show that respect.


Do you think he will? I'm not being sarcastic, nor do I want him to be. Just, c'mon, Mr. Pintek, come right out and sing the tune that shows you can truly lead, and in the way of truth and light.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-09 00:51:36

In my opinion this truly is a freedom of speach issue. Maybe the local ACLU can help dealing with Penn Dot.


313 Atwood Street

Pittsburgh, PA 15213

412-681-7736

or toll-free at 1-877-PGH-ACLU

info@aclupgh.org


greasefoot
2010-07-09 03:41:19

Out of all the infrastructure that Penndoubt has responsibility for, and all the other truly hazardous conditions they could be correcting, someone finds time to send a man or a crew to this insignificant little memorial, on a tertiary road, calling it hazardous. It's sickening. The whole thing still reeks of someone who knows someone who wants the issue to quietly fade away.

I hate Penndot to the bottom of my being. They are a huge reason why some people think government is incapable of accomplishing anything good.


edmonds59
2010-07-09 03:45:09

^ 'someone who wants the issue to quietly fade away'

The speed at which the ghost bike was removed and the lack of speed in bringing charges against the driver...


88ms88
2010-07-09 04:26:19

Although I think this is all absolutely sickening, I think we need to work together and reach out to try to find a solution.


I contacted PennDot--no response back.


I contacted the media--KDKA ran a story tonight and the Trib may run one next week.


I contacted ASWP--they are working on a response


At the current time, the best action I can come up with is placing traditional road side memorial things at the site where Don was killed. Hopefully these things will be allowed to sit as a loving memorial undisturbed.


If PennDot chooses to remove these, the media should have a very good story on their hands.


ndromb
2010-07-09 06:11:53

Can we find a miniature bicycle, maybe no more than a foot high or two feet long, to be added to the roadside memorial? (if that's OK with the family, that is...) Something that would say Don was a cyclist. Something the size of or smaller than the largest thing otherwise planned.


Then maybe that will serve our purpose, while not stepping on whosever's toes we're stepping on in the process of actually getting people's attention.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-09 13:11:42

put a helmet in front of the cross. everyone knows what a bike helmet is.


cburch
2010-07-09 14:29:21

somehow a ghost bike is considered a distraction, yet this is not.


the whole concept of billboards is to distract your attention. i suppose if the ghost bike was paid for, it wouldn't be considered a distraction anymore.


erok
2010-07-09 16:14:25

welcome to breezewood, pa



erok
2010-07-09 16:14:51

How long has the cross been up on the outbound side of 376 past the Fort Pitt tunnels? A decade?


eric
2010-07-09 16:31:11

I did not see it but I understand that on the news this morning that Penn Dot said they would work together to set up another memorial for Don.

Also I received a response via email from someone in the DA office the email follows:


I apologize for the delay in answering your first email. My sympathies on the loss of your son. I ride about 12 miles a day on my bike so I'm aware of the things that can happen between bike riders and drivers. I know it's hard to be patient right now, but we are still reviewing all of the information related to Don's death.


District Attorney Zappala has made it a point to be extremely thorough in these types of investigations so that nothing is missed.


I will make sure that as soon as we are finished with our review, someone will be in touch with you and your husband.


Sincerely,


Mike Manko


aleen-mary
2010-07-09 17:08:42

@ejw - the list of roads that belong to PennDOT is enormous. It would be hard to post. Watch the route numbers on the roads you use. Anything labeled SR xxxx is a PennDOT road. One and two digit PennDOT roads are roads you probably know by their number 8, 22, 28, 65, 19 etc. Other, smaller roads you might know by number 119 or 422 for example, or you may know by a standard street name. The four digit roads (such as the one Don Parker was killed on) you will know almost exclusively by a street name, and not by number. But, at most major intersections, there will be a small white sign that identifies the route number. These signs are very small - about the size of an index card, and are very easy to miss.


swalfoort
2010-07-09 17:38:11

We could stencil paint a white bike on the shoulder. Might be vandalism, but it might be protected speech - you would want to find out which beforehand, since it's easily traceable to the ghost bike initiative.


In any case, I know that various events are permitted to paint arrows and other route markers on roads - what's the difference here?


I know I've seen an article about roadside memorials before - they are sometimes tolerated but I think it's legal for road maintenance to remove them.


erink
2010-07-09 18:51:18

I had toyed with the idea of making a small aluminum bike (not like functional bike, I mean bike shape cut out of a flat piece of aluminum).


Maybe a foot long? Could cut out dons name in the frame, or maybe nick could get some vinyl lettering for it.


robjdlc
2010-07-09 19:02:39

swalfoort - my point was that it's not a Penn DOT road - it's OUR road. WE pay them to maintain it, the way WE want it, through taxes. It irks me that people claim ownership over something to remove a burr under their saddle but when it comes time to actually improve something or be responsible, it once again becomes public land, or at least "not mine".


ejwme
2010-07-12 13:12:08

Ok.... this thread seems to be as dead as any response by the City on the Don Parker death, or to what charges will be given to the driver of the pick-up truck that killed him (if any since the driver, his family AND community are all bend-up on staying shut about owning-up to anything regarding this mess)


Any news?

How about installing a new ghost bike?


Almost (3) months since the accident with almost NO ANSWERS is too much....


BikeFest is fast approaching, and I was thinking that one less-of-us won't be there: Don. Could we try to do a ride to honor his memory again, and also to honor all those of us who have had close-calls, or actual real accidents, and even death; due to irresponsible drivers? We can install the GhostBike as well....


Any thoughts?


bikeygirl
2010-07-20 19:18:02

I have no positive news to share.


I haven't heard back form anyone at PennDot (I am going to leave messages for the 3rd time to see if I get a response).


I spoke with an assistant DA last night who gave me a little insight, but I am not too keen on posting what we spoke about.


Today or tomorrow I plan on calling state rep. Matt Smith, and the guys at PennDot. I'll let you know what I find out.


ndromb
2010-07-21 16:08:03

I just talked to a reporter from the Trib who is writing an in-depth article about the controversy surrounding this. Hopefully it will make it to print and we will see it in the next few days.


Also, (it is not 100% confirmed) it seems Jack, the owner of Jack's Pizza & Hoagies/Citgo, was the complainant that had PennDot remove the ghost bike.


ndromb
2010-07-21 20:10:14

Does proximity to a Ghost Bike diminish one's appetite for gas station pizza and hoagies?


So weak.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-21 20:59:32

There is an article slated for press on Sunday in the Trib concerning the controversy around the ghost bike.


It turns out it was Jack of Jack's Pizza & Hoagies who called Penndot and complained about the ghost bike. He said it was a hazard because people were slowing down by it and they were almost getting rear ended by people coming up the road.


(Yes, he was complaining because it was causing people to slow down and almost get rear ended by dangerous driver not paying attention coming up the hill.)


ndromb
2010-07-22 21:41:26

Wow, thank you Jack of Jack's Pizza & Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd. for being such a samaritan!


noah-mustion
2010-07-22 21:45:12

well i'm certainly not going to be getting any pizza or hoagies from Jack's Pizza & Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd. not if he sees fit to have a memorial to a cyclist killed because it was actually calming traffic and getting people to drive the speed limit. way to not get it Jack of Jack's Pizza & Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd.


cburch
2010-07-22 21:48:27

Nick, it's great to see that some answers are coming to the surface. Although you said there is no need to thank you, your persistance is certainly admirable in helping to keep attention on this.


It is also great to see that the media is actually following up on that. Perhaps the Trib's article might help keep the waters stirred.


I don't quite understand why a business like Jack's Pizza and Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd. would be so concerned about a memorial being a "hazard" when the point is to serve as a memorial to someone who was killed by hazardous driving on that very road. I used to stop in there while riding in the area for snacks or beverages, but the past tense is quite key in that sentence.


hoffmannj
2010-07-23 11:20:32

I can't remember, but has Google fixed their algorithm that allowed google-bombing? I recall for a while there was a thing going on with searching for "miserable failure", for example.


If they haven't, perhaps a google bomb linking 'heartless business owner' or 'clueless business owner' and Jack's Pizza and Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd would be a interesting exercise?


At the very least tweeting and blogging about this whole thing is well advised once the article comes out.


This whole thing angers me. Not only should have the police pressed charges months ago, but PennDOT should have told this guy to take a flying leap through a rolling donut. Or at the very least said something like:


"Well sir, perhaps given that a SOMEONE WAS KILLED at that location by a driver GOING TOO FAST, a memorial that slows down traffic is completely appropriate. You dumb #$@@!"


myddrin
2010-07-23 12:21:18

myddrin, I've done work that involves working with Penndot, but in general, their prime directive is vehicular safety, which they interpret as, nothing can be permitted to impact automobile and truck traffic even if it makes pedestrian or cyclists safer, saves puppies, or ends world hunger. NOTHING! The road is for cars, trucks, and everything else needs to stay out the way.


edmonds59
2010-07-23 12:45:19

The road is for cars and trucks going 15+ over the speed limit, and everything else needs to stay out of the way.


Including while approaching a stop sign on an uphill.


At a business entrance.


Dumb #$@@ indeed.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-23 15:02:29

Jack from Jack's Pizza and Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Road encourages unsafe driving.


Q.E.D.


noah-mustion
2010-07-23 15:19:13

From a business owner's perspective, it is good for business for people to be slowing down in front of your location. With people slowing down they may realize Jack's sells pizza and hoagies, when they may have previously thought it was only a gas station.


Plus, if car are slowing on Harts Run Rd, it would make getting in and out of Jack's Pizza easier.


I hear his pizza is good, and he may be a decent guy, I just don't understand what his problem is.


ndromb
2010-07-23 16:03:09

Based on the son's comments that someone remarked on previously, it seems that the "hazard" concern may have been a complete smokescreen to have the memorial removed from what they perceive to be "their" property, and Penndot was played into doing the dirty work.


edmonds59
2010-07-23 16:21:20

You'd think Jack's Pizza and Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd. would realize that people slowing down and paying attention is good for business and bitching about a roadside memorial makes you a total db.


sarah_q
2010-07-24 01:26:57

damn this thread about how the owner of Jack's Pizza and Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd. had a memorial to a father killed by a speeding driver removed by pendot hasn't made it to the first page of google yet.


cburch
2010-07-24 01:41:36

There are so many things wrong with that story (not the reporting, what they're reporting about) that I don't know where to start.


How about here: "But PennDOT did not know who put up the memorial, so it had no one to contact, Struzzi said."


Jeez, it was only on the TV news. Fifteen seconds of looking on Google would have gotten them to this thread, too. They didn't try, is what they're saying.


-1


stuinmccandless
2010-07-25 16:35:11

It also had a giant URL right on the sign. Not sure how it could be any easier to figure out who put it up.


dwillen
2010-07-25 17:10:01

Rode past there this morning with a couple buddies. Somehow the four of us managed to resist the urge to stop and buy anything.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-25 17:16:34

If people are almost getting rear ended outside of Jack's Pizza and Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd. while slowing down something tells me that the real safety issue is the way these people drive.


rsprake
2010-07-25 17:25:43

I think the whole thing is bullshit. maybe pennDOT should put up some yellow flashing lights/red flashing "stop ahead" sign to get people to slow down as they come up that hill/around the bend. i'm sure that people have been speeding before and have rear-ended others at the intersection before without the ghost bike.


i think i'm gonna be a giant douche and call pennDOT about every since cross/candle/stuffed animal along the side of the road and say "i think it's a distraction!" then someone might do a story on me and call me an asshole. but that's only if it doesn't involve a bicycle. because "bicyclists shouldn't be on the road" and it's something that isn't taken seriously still. what a bunch of shit. if something ever happens to me, please put up one of those big electronic billboards for me, since those aren't considered a distraction. but if you put a picture of a ghostbike on it, it would probably be considered one.


stefb
2010-07-25 22:34:12

Look at the pictures of the memorial on page 9 of this thread, and then at this other quote from PennDOT's Struzzi:


It was too close to the side of the road, Struzzi said.

"We can't allow that; it's not safe," he said.


Anyone who was far enough off the road to crunch the bike was going to have a bigger problem with the telephone pole about 15 feet beyond it.


-1 again


stuinmccandless
2010-07-25 22:41:51

not that it matters much but the bike could have also been removed by taking the bolt out of the bottom of the sign and lifting it up. something to check on future longterm lockups.


i have a the bike that my brother was hit on two years ago that i'd like to use for something like this... he died at the scene and was brought back to life in the hospital... he doesn't want anything to do with the bike, its pretty messed up but its still a bike that won't be used for anything else.


imakwik1
2010-07-26 02:23:26

Although the article isn't exactly what I expected, I still greatly appreciate Ashley for taking time to investigate it. She cleared a lot of things that I was unable to confirm.


The whole thing with PennDot is ridiculous, because they won't even call me back. I still have to go up and pick the old ghost bike up.... I keep forgetting to drive to work.


I have been swamped with work, but i am going to get back on bugging people towards the end of the week.


ndromb
2010-07-26 16:55:41

Perhaps I've missed something along the way, but this article is the first time I've seen it in print that the driver "drove off the side of the road and hit Parker." (as opposed to a discussion of whether Don Parker "belonged" where he was riding)


Surely that's a big deal. Right?


mmfranzen
2010-07-26 17:38:25

Mary, you are right. That is certainly incorrect, and a big deal.


I will send a message to the author.


ndromb
2010-07-26 19:19:22

I wouldn't be too surprised if he drove off the side of the road AND hit Parker.


It's hard to keep a truck on the road when you're fussing with your flip flops.


lyle
2010-07-26 20:02:41

"We don't want someone injured or worse."


Really? A man already died, a wife lost her husband, 3 children lost their father. It's a ghost bike, that's supposed to raise awareness. If people slow down for it, GOOD. Perhaps it will make people pay more attention when they are driving. Which is what you're supposed to be DOING ANYWAY!


Remove this bike, it is a distraction. And while you're at it remove all bikes...


beth910
2010-07-26 20:24:52

^^^THIS MESSAGE (press the "11" above and to your right and scroll to the bottom) is the message the media needs to be getting out. YEAH it's in your face, YEAH it's emotionally disturbing. TOO FLIPPIN' BAD!! We cyclists do not want to be the next Don Parker!


Hey media, AND Mr. Struzzi AND Mr. Pintek AND Jack of Jack's Pizza & Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd, the rest of us living, breathing cyclists with spouses and children DO NOT WANT TO BE THE NEXT DON PARKER!


How about, media, if you actually READ the 500 posts on this thread, and cover THIS story? We, the close-knit cycling community, HAVE A POINT. We have a MESSAGE. And we're damn tired of people who miss that point.


The actual reporters who have covered the story have usually been more than helpful and willing to convey the story, but the message is not getting through.


Sure I'm screaming. Mr. Parker didn't get a chance to scream. He got a pickup truck in the back at (OK I'll be nice) 40 mph! I stood on that road myself at the very spot he got killed, and I'll bet half the cars going past me were at 50+.


Who do we have to choke in order to get this message THROUGH to people?


stuinmccandless
2010-07-26 21:03:43

ever try to drive the speed limit in the city? or anywhere for the matter? you have some angry people up your ass. everyone is too busy and in too much of a hurry to care about anyone but themselves generally.


i still say that people should be forced to ride a bicycle for a week instead of using a car. then they will be more aware of what they are doing in their cars


stefb
2010-07-26 22:34:50

I am the one who was quoted in the paper "We don't want someone injured or worse" If Beth910 freewheeler knew my brother, she would know that my brother would never want another person endangered while trying to memorialize him. Don was a gentle man that would never harm a soul.

I have sat and read the "chatter" amoungest you and while I don't agree with it all, we all have a right to our opinions, however when I see blantant mockery to my feelings I have to say something. Please also remember, just because it is quoted in the paper does not mean things were not said that went along with it that did not get put in. It is very possible that that the excuse about an accident being caused was just that an excuse to get rid of the "ghost bike" however do any of you want to live with that if it was true and another fatal accident would occur, I don't and I can't believe my brother would either.


I think a memorial for Don is a wonderful idea and I thank you for that. It is a great way to not only honor a wonderful Christian, husband and father,I hope and pray when people see it they will remember what happened there and slow down and be more respectful of others on the roads. Also, I would like to thank who ever organized the rides in his memory, it is nice to see so many people come together. Bless you all.


mac1
2010-07-27 19:03:52

Hi Mac1

I agree with all you have said and I too I'm gratefull for all of you who feel a memorial for Don is very important,I can't thank you enough for keeping the memory of such a wonderful man alive.

I also hope that we can see safer riding condtions for bicyclist be enforced so no one else has to suffer the loss of a husband, father, son, and brother as Don's family has.


aleen-mary
2010-07-28 14:25:02

Mac1,

I am sorry. I just sent a private message that I didn't feel belonged here.


beth910
2010-07-28 20:16:07

Something in Beth's post irritated someone in the family, and she apologized. I, too, am sorry if in my reiteration of her post, I irritated someone as well.


One thing I am not apologizing for: What Beth said here ...

It's a ghost bike, that's supposed to raise awareness. If people slow down for it, GOOD. Perhaps it will make people pay more attention when they are driving. Which is what you're supposed to be DOING ANYWAY!

...is exactly what needed to be said.


When this story broke on May 27, my cycling dropped precipitously. I began having night sweats. I became fearful of dying every time I heard a car come up behind me. Don was on a level road (at that spot) with perfect sight lines and a blue sky, wearing bright clothing, probably moving along at a good clip. Despite all that, someone didn't see him, and killed him.


Put this in perspective. Just a month or so before, national sports radio announcer/jerk Tony Kornheiser openly advocated "tapping" cyclists. Since this story broke, KDKA's own Mike Pintek said virtually the same thing. Add to that the Lisa Styles run-over in Dormont in late June.


Is it any wonder cyclists are fearful? Is it any wonder cyclists such as myself have a take-no-prisoners attitude toward any sort of driver behavior that can cause us harm, whether intentional or not?


Again, while I do not want to cause Don's family further distress, I do want to do anything within my own power and that of the cycling community in general that will cause ALL drivers to watch out for us and treat us safely and courteously. That includes the jerks!


THAT message is not getting through, as long as the Struzzis and Pinteks and Kornheisers and certain pizza shop owners think and act and talk as they do. I should not feel as if I need to chain these people to a chair and stand over them wielding a large club.


Our lives matter. That is a story worth covering.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-28 21:28:15

What Don was wearing had nothing to do with why he was hit. Granted he was doing all the right things to be riding safely,bright colors, helmet, ligts on his bike. He could have been lit up like a Christmas tree and still would have been hit the kid driving the truck was busy with his head down below the dash board fixing his flip flop.

Following is the article from the paper.


A teen driver was distracted when his flip-flops got tangled with his truck's pedals, causing him to strike and kill a bicyclist in Indiana Township, Pa., homicide investigators said Friday.

No charges have been filed against the 17-year-old boy who had been driving the pickup truck. The Allegheny County District Attorney's office will review the investigative reports to determine whether charges should be filed.

Deputy District Attorney Chris Conners said Friday the matter is under review.

Donald Parker, 52, of Hampton, Pa., died May 27 after his bicycle was struck from behind by the boy's pickup truck as the two traveled up a steep grade.

The boy told police he had been on his way to school when his flip-flops got tangled in the floor pedals.

The driver, while the truck still was moving, reached down to untangle his feet when the vehicle struck Parker, who had been riding near the berm ahead of the truck.

"The flip-flops caused a momentary distraction that took (the driver) to the berm, and he struck the bicyclist," said county police Lt. William Palmer.

The boy's name has not been released.


aleen-mary
2010-07-28 23:44:06

aleen, thats kind of the point that stu is trying to make. don was doing EVERYTHING right and this still happened. that's what made this hit home so much within our community, this really could have been any of us. generally when there are incidents like this there are things the cyclist could have done to make the "accident" less likely. to see it happen even when the cyclist is doing everything right really struck a nerve with all of us and made a lot of us stand up and say "no more, this is it."


cburch
2010-07-29 02:31:55

I'm ready to help out anyway I can write letters,make calls, make personal appearances in Harisburg to help make the roads safer for all of you. Don died doing what he loved and I know he would support me in trying to promote safer laws for the Cyclist.


aleen-mary
2010-07-29 16:36:51

I had lunch with an older classmate who's daughter knew the driver of the truck. She said that she felt bad for both people, and when I asked why she felt bad for the driver, she said something about being so close to graduation (or something, I can't quite remember).


I told her that I have no sympathy for the driver because he was doing two things that are really irresponsible: driving in flip-flops and not looking at the road. And in doing that, he took a life. I think wording it like that, instead of saying that he "hit someone" really struck a chord with her, and she sort of had that epiphany moment, where she realized, "This is serious."


rubberfactory
2010-07-29 17:40:13

RubberFactory

Next time you talk to the classmate who daughter knew the truck driver tell her for me that Don had plans too, he had a full Memorial weekend planned. A visit with his in-laws, a softball game with his youngest daughter Rachel,the 24th birthday of his oldest daughter Stephanie,plus several picnics. The day of the silent bike ride in his honor he was suppose to be doing a 50 mile ride preparing with his Aptech Goldenvue team for the MS 150 June 12th.

Oh yes too, in the future a wedding next October for his son Mark and his fiance Kelly. In a few years the Graduation of Rachel. And then too what about the future grandchildren he can no longer look forward too.

Don touched many lives for the good at home, work and church. There was much more he could have added to society.

Don had a future that was wiped out in an instant by a carless driver.

Now who does she want to feel bad for.


aleen-mary
2010-07-30 00:16:52

+++++++++++1 Aleen Mary!


I never met Don. But I've thought of him every time I've ridden in the past few months.


marko82
2010-07-30 02:10:06

Wait wait wait. We have a contact with identification of the driver? This could be helpful.


joeframbach
2010-07-30 05:31:55

I suspect 3/4 of anyone associated with FCAHS knows who he is. But this is the first I'd heard he was a senior.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-30 15:30:06

Stu - i'd peg that at more than 7/8.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-30 15:40:38

Many media outlets have policies about identifying juveniles - particularly victims. What would the moral issues be regarding "outing" flip-flop boy?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-30 15:44:08

i dunno ALMKLM. he has graduation coming up, after all.


/sarcasm


noah-mustion
2010-07-30 15:45:07

the media generally doesn't identify a juvenile unless they have adult charges pending against them. i'm sure that if charges ARE EVER filed the media will release the kid's name.


cburch
2010-07-30 15:45:32

What if someone here (as from time to time someone knows someone who knows someone) learns flip-flop boy's identity.


What would the issue be in that case?


Would it shed some light on why he has not been charged (possibly his family is connected, etc.?)?


Would the message board, or the individual posting the information incur some sort of liability?


Or is it free speech?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-30 15:54:50

I would like to see him name be released to the public and moreso would like to see charges filed.


I don't care about personally learning his name. It could be Tub Watts for all I care, I just want there to be a public and searchable record of what he did so he can't just receed into the background for everyone to forget what happend.


tabby
2010-07-30 16:03:41

I would actually strongly recommend against publicly revealing the individuals name, and I would hope that if anyone happens to discover it, do not bring it up on the board, unless it happens first to become general public knowledge. It raises way too much of the spectre of possible personal retribution or harassment, I would not want to in any be associated with that.

I would, however, want any public officials, police, DA, whoever is responsible for prosecuting the case, to be kept in the public spotlight and pressure kept on as to when and what action or charges are being pursued, or will be brought, or if not, why? That is their JOB!


edmonds59
2010-07-30 16:48:33

From what I understand, the media does not know the identity of the driver.


I would like to know who he is, but only to better understand why this case is being handled the way it is.


On another note, I went out to Saxonburg Road again last night looking for the PennDot office that has the ghost bike. Anyone have any clue where this place is? I've been up and down Saxonburg 3 times and haven't been able to find it.


ndromb
2010-07-30 17:16:51

I agree edmonds, not sure if I was clear above. I also think it would not serve any constructive purpose for the board to get ahold of his name. When I say I would like the public to know his name I mean have it publicly released by the DA.


tabby
2010-07-30 17:18:40

I less care about the kid's name, and more care about the drivers of 8 million cars, in PA alone, knowing how to drive responsibly. For whatever it's worth, this kid sure learned the lesson. One driver.


The media is not our friend. The occasional reporter, yes, but where the media in general could be helping educate 8 million drivers, more typically they mis-educate, and foster beliefs and attitudes that make the roads more dangerous for us. Thus I am including some media owners and directors in my chain-and-club session described above.


stuinmccandless
2010-07-30 17:38:40

Stu,


You have to remember that it isn't the media's job to educate anyone. We are not the media's consumers, we are their product. They sell our eyes to advertisers. whatever they can do to get more people to watch is what they will do.


That being said, I would be willing to bet that the reason they mis-educate is because they themselves are largely clueless about the biking community and what we have to deal with.


I myself are fairly new to the biking community and I consider myself to be largely clueless as to what is going on.


dbacklover
2010-07-30 17:48:01

My question did not intend for any readers of this board to take the information and act directly on the individual any form of retribution, harassment, etc.


Rather, it is a small world. Pittsburgh is a small town. Someone out there knows this kid's name. I am wondering if the pubic release of the name wouldn't shed some light onto WHY he has not yet been charged. Is he and/or his family being protected? Are they friendly with connected people?


And Stu, I certainly hope this kid learned a lesson. But unless and until he is made an example of, none of those other 8 million you referenced will give a crap. And even then, it is likely most will not anyway, but this should not go unpunished.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-30 17:55:23

On somewhat related note, I spoke with the reporter who wrote the latest article in the Trib that talked about the removal of the ghost bike. She said her editor cut the article down and changed a lot of the wording. "drove off the side of the road and hit Parker." were not her words.


ndromb
2010-07-30 18:06:19

That's because the Trib is a tabloid at best


spakbros
2010-07-30 18:07:22

+1 dbacklover, It’s not the media’s job to educate anyone.


Driving a motor vehicle in the State of Pennsylvania is a privilege not a god given right. It’s up to the state to educate the people they grant a drivers license to. Other states have already started a movement to change the legal age of operating a motor vehicle to 18. Our state should also consider making the same change.


greasefoot
2010-07-30 18:10:46

Nick,


The mainline number to PennDOT District 11 is (412) 429-5000. Ask for the address or number for the Saxonburg Storage Facility so you can get your bike.


sloaps
2010-07-30 18:23:27

Good call. I never thought about calling the mainline. I always just called the contacts I had--none of them call me back anymore.


ndromb
2010-07-30 18:24:37

There's always Bob Mayo or Marty Griffin, if the mainline doesn't work?


sloaps
2010-07-30 18:26:46

I received this email from the DA's office July 7th but still have not heard of any decision being made. That was over three weeks ago and the case had been tuned over to the DA June 11th.

I apologize for the delay in answering your first email. My sympathies on the loss of your son. I ride about 12 miles a day on my bike so I'm aware of the things that can happen between bike riders and drivers. I know it's hard to be patient right now, but we are still reviewing all of the information related to Don's death.


District Attorney Zappala has made it a point to be extremely thorough in these types of investigations so that nothing is missed.


I will make sure that as soon as we are finished with our review, someone will be in touch with you and your husband.


Sincerely,


Mike Manko


aleen-mary
2010-07-30 18:48:53

Zappala is from Fox Chapel, right?


ndromb
2010-07-30 18:55:58

That's a sticky-wicket, then isn't it. Do we (the Cycling Community) push Zappala for action on Don Parker, pursuing the Fox Chapel insider line of thinking...


Or do we back off and see what happens because we don't want to appear unfriendly towards the DA, presuming that there's little to be gained by embarrassing Zappala, and much to be gained in terms of support on other advocacy issues on the cycling agenda.


Just thinking out loud...


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-07-31 16:13:42

I think a gentle perusing to find out what's going on is called for. What other cases is he handling that this hasn't been able to get the resources to fully investigate what happened and take care of this? In other words, if anybody does approach him, maybe start off with the "well, gee, there must be some good reason, please share" rather than "there couldn't possibly be a good reason, you suck". If no good reason is presented, flame on. If good reason is presented, share here and support.


Theoretically he's trying to do the right thing. A lot of the time it feels like here we're fermenting in our own frustrated, helpless, and out of the loop fear/anger (understandably, I'm not knocking it, just pointing it out). Directing it toward the DA may not be the most productive solution.


ejwme
2010-07-31 17:22:52

I was on Harts Run Rd. today and noticed five feet past where the memorial was, Jack's Pizza and Hoagies has errected a bright orange coroplast sign advertising $5.99 carry out pizzas. Although this sign is small (18"x24"), it is designed to distract you. Thus it is dangerous and should be removed.


I plan on calling Penndot tomorrow morning and notifying them that it is a distraction and should be removed as it could cause someone to get rear-ended by a reckless driver.


ndromb
2010-08-02 02:05:48

^^^^THIS


Now Nick, I'm not seriously advocating you doing that, but it clearly proves that the owner(s) of Jack's Pizza don't really care about driver safety. It almost confirms what I've believed all along that they came up with an excuse to make someone dispose of the Ghost Bike because they found it "unsightly". Hell, their reasoning could have been that it freaked people out enough to drive away business.


That said, it brings me to another point. Is there any chance that a new ghost bike could be installed further down the hill on the road closer to the actual site of the accident? I still feel this is all classic rural suburbia NIMBY crap, so if the bike were further down away from everyone's manicured lawns maybe no one would be so possessed to see the ghost bike removed again?


Just food for thought.


impala26
2010-08-02 15:09:18

This is an insult, and I'm really tempted to assume that it has to be deliberate. I know, I know never assume conspiracy/jackassery when incompetence could be a reasonable explanation... but there is a limit to the level of incompetence I can imagine.


I was talking to a co-worker (not a cyclist, but sympathetic) who mentioned that one could purchase some advertising about this situation. Either a billboard, google adword or newspaper ad....


Not advocatin', just sayin'


myddrin
2010-08-02 17:00:58

Most municipalities have ordinances regarding permanent and temporary business signs. In the North Hills I know the business needs to apply and pay for a permit for a temporary sign. If it's a permanent sign they need to be approved by a zoning board. If Jack's Pizza & Hoagies at 3565 Harts Run Rd has unlawfully set up a roadside sign you complain to the local municipality. They will send them a letter to remove the sign and possibly a citation.


greasefoot
2010-08-02 18:08:26

So what's the word on putting up another ghost bike?


noah-mustion
2010-08-02 23:52:43

I'm starting to think giant neon flashing billboard. Maybe if we make it commercial enough, no one will complain.


wojty
2010-08-03 12:11:50

Oh, heck yes, if it was for-profit there wouldn't be a peep.


edmonds59
2010-08-03 13:47:32

I am still waiting to hear back form the Audubon Society concerning putting it up on their land.


If anyone is interested in helping with this, get a hold of me off the board.


ndromb
2010-08-03 14:11:22

From what I gather from the Assistant DA I spoke with last week, the issue is (they feel), the man who killed Donald Parker was nothing being excessively careless. Although I strongly disagree with that, it is not as cut and dry as a DUI man slaughter.


Personally, I still think the driver was extremely negligent, and to me, driving in flip-flops and driving with your head under the dash are just as dangerous and reckless--the law says otherwise.


ndromb
2010-08-03 14:40:34

If he was handling a gun, reached down to fix his flip flop and the gun went off and killed his neighbor, was he still just being careless?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-03 16:01:13

Given the current situation, if it were the same person, I feel like the Police and the DA would react the same....


ndromb
2010-08-03 17:01:47

Nick, that sounds like a loaded statement to me.


eric
2010-08-03 19:41:27

Ok?


ndromb
2010-08-03 19:58:27

It implies this individual wasn't charged becasue of who he is, not the legality of his actions. Maybe I'm just reading more into it than I should.


eric
2010-08-03 20:01:19

I'm pretty sure that is the current theory, Eric. You are reading it correctly.


dwillen
2010-08-03 20:02:47

That is my current theory--though it is only based on speculation and the handling of other similar cases.


ndromb
2010-08-03 20:10:57

At this point, it feels to me like the DA is dragging his feet on this one deliberately. If he does not intend to file charges, then he should say so, and attempt to justify why not. (I personally don't think it's justifiable.) What's happened so far is that they've just mumbled about an ongoing investigation, but they never seem to have any progress, and given the situation, it doesn't seem like there's anything to be investigated. So, he's simply hoping that everyone will forget the whole thing and quietly go away.


My assumption is slightly different than Nick's. I'm assuming this is because the victim was on a bicycle, and the DA's office doesn't give squat about cyclists, and would just as soon we were all dead. I certainly can't say that Nick is wrong, though.


At this point, I think that if the DA wants to demonstrate a lack of negligence or malfeasance on his part, it's up to him to step up and say something. Continued silence and inaction only further undermines his position.


jz
2010-08-03 20:16:30

Er, clarification: I don't think the DA can justify not filing charges. (I had a lot of negatives in my first paragraph.)


jz
2010-08-03 20:17:18

Unless anyone can cite some other instances where the DA has shown indifference toward auto v. cyclist events, the Fox Chapel link is awfully hard to overlook.


It raises suspicions that will only grow louder in the absence of either a) bringing charges, or b) publicly explaining why he has not/will not bring charges.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-03 20:22:01

is everyone in fox chapel a political juggernaut or something? these all strike me as rather crackpot theories, if you'll pardon my saying so. the only evidence we have of anything is that no charges have been filed, yet. as to why this might be, we have just as much evidence that it's because of the potential defendant's family as we do that it was space aliens. it's just as unlikely, in my opinion, that the DA thinks the only good cyclist is a dead cyclist.


hiddenvariable
2010-08-03 21:00:38

I've stayed quiet on this issue for awhile now, and I'll just summarize my thoughts on this since I've ranted enough in the past:


This whole thing is so f'up, there's no where to start, and putting expletives all over the page won't be enough for me.....


So here it goes....


SHAME on officials for their ongoing silence.


SHAME on the DA for showing what at this point looks like favoritism and preferential treatment towards his 'community' and 'his people' and whatever connections are at play in here, because at this point to doubt that favoritism --does-- exist, would be naive...


SHAME on the Fox Chapel community for siding with the officials/DA/killer's silence and not giving a flying 'f^@#%' about the victim.


SHAME on the stupid-ass people at the gas-station for requesting to take down Don Parker's memorial for petty and callous reasons.


SHAME on the killer (sorry, at this point I can only describe the driver of the truck as a killer) for stupidly driving in such a careless way that he took someone's life.... because yes, whoever you are, teenager, young adult, whatever.... YOU KILLED SOMEONE


SHAME on the family of the killer for not coming up and at least try to offer a sincere apology to Don's family, and for being irresponsible parents who did not properly taught their offspring on being more careful on the road.


SHAME on the trolls who have come here to throw their stupid 'it was an accident by just a kid' theories.


And last but not least, SHAME SHAME SHAME on our current driving and road-laws for being so obtuse and incomplete in protecting cyclists.


Yeah yeah, NO ONE meant for this to happen. NO ONE set out to kill Don on purpose...... BUT EVERYONE is at this point GUILTY on such a mistreatment of justice, and GUILTY on properly acknowledging and addressing the situation.


SHAME on all of you, and SHAME in whatever conscience you might have.


There, the end......

If I'm wrong.... someone please prove me as such.


I'll feel better once a new-permanent Ghost Bike goes up for Dan.


.... because yeah, sorry Dan, and my sincere condolences to your family and close ones, for being treated this way. My heart and respect goes out to you.


bikeygirl
2010-08-03 21:01:05

What bikeygirl said... with relish.


myddrin
2010-08-03 23:43:40

res ipsa loquitur


salty
2010-08-04 02:06:48

That about said it, Bikeygirl.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-04 11:08:57

Scott forwarded me an email this morning from the family requesting that we do not put up another ghost bike on Harts Run Rd.


As per their request, I will discontinue any efforts to do so.


However, they mentioned the idea of erecting a memorial in another location popular to cyclists. I think this is a great idea and we will be discussing it soon.


ndromb
2010-08-04 15:32:26

Is it possible the Parker family has asked the DA not to pursue charges?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-04 16:03:27

Awesome Nick.... I've had been thinking about that too. To have a memorial where the people who care and that have been touched by this situation, can properly give the respect Don deserves.


bikeygirl
2010-08-04 16:09:04

A thought - get something started at "the Oval", for all victims?


edmonds59
2010-08-04 16:37:14

i'd rather see something in front of bike pgh, right on doughboy square where there is a lot of non-cyclist traffic to see it.


cburch
2010-08-04 18:34:06

+1 on Cburch idea.


dbacklover
2010-08-04 18:46:57

I agree with cburch - if there is to be a general memorial for all victims, it should be some place visible to all.


Why just have a place for cyclists to remember victims when it could also serve as a reminder to the general public as well?


hoffmannj
2010-08-04 18:52:45

+1 cburch - gets the message out, otherwise it's a little bit of preaching to the choir, right?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-04 19:53:35

I actually was thinking it would be something visible from Washington Blvd - given the amount of traffic that passes that daily vs. traffic on, say, Butler. It could be something as simple as a pile of 100 white ghost bikes, some kind of base, and a plaque. I think I've seen that somewhere.


Maybe even have a design competition.


edmonds59
2010-08-04 20:18:38

If I had my druthers, it would be on Grandview and big enough to be visible from downtown and the parkway.


*SIGH* A boy can dream....


myddrin
2010-08-04 20:20:29

only problem with a bike memorial like that at the oval is that its still not clear to average people what it means. most people have no idea what a ghost bike is.


cburch
2010-08-04 21:07:46

If the Parker family did not want the case pursued then the DA could just easily say so and the issue settled.


The problem here is not necessarily the lack of charges, but rather a lack of explanation. There has been no timetable announced for a decision, there has been no public announcement of why charges are not be filed.


I would also say that if there is a question as to whether the driver was careless enough to rise to a criminal act, the DA should not be determining that, but rather a grand jury. The DA should present the evidence. This would actually take the DA off the hook. Their stonewalling of this whole case is very troublesome.


I'm with Nick on this one. I think this has more to do with who than what.


marv
2010-08-04 21:24:30

Last night, John brought up the idea of another ride of silence to the DA's office. I think that may be an effective way to say, "we didn't forget".


ndromb
2010-08-05 00:34:59

To my knowledge no one in the family has requested that the DA drop charges. We await his decision just as all of you are doing.


aleen-mary
2010-08-05 13:26:15

My personal opinion is that there is probably no favoritism going on. Which is actually worse, IMHO. I read news reports of automotive homicides from all over the country, and they are chillingly similar. Motorist says "I didn't see him", "He came out of nowhere", "he suddenly swerved in front of me, there was nothing I could do", and that's the end of it. This just fits that national pattern.


District Attorney is an elected office, and it's an established stepping-stone to the governorship for ambitious politicos. There's no percentage in antagonizing the power base -- in this case, people who drive inattentively.


Knowing that, the course of action should be clear.


lyle
2010-08-05 14:14:48

/ this


cburch
2010-08-05 14:20:02

The ride of silence to the DA's office strikes me as a good idea.


mick
2010-08-05 16:31:44

If we do this ride, can we do it early on a weekday? Don was killed at about 7:15 a.m. If we can assemble another quarter-mile line of cyclists like we did in May, but at rush hour on a weekday morning, THAT would certainly get some attention. Especially if we just rode on, for example, Allegheny River Boulevard from the Hulton Bridge or thereabouts, then on to Butler and Penn and on into Downtown? For sure, every traffic report on every radio station will mention "a quarter-mile line of bicyclists", and chances are pretty good that even if we don't give any media a heads-up, some reporter will seek us out to find out what we're about.


With that kind of a region-wide heads-up, our message will then have the proper framing for the DA to give us SOME kind of answer.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-08 14:22:53

I like Stu's idea, but it will only work if we have a quarter mile of cyclists (or other impressive numbers). If everybody has to work themselves, and only 15 people show up, it will be brushed aside again.


An evening rush ride might be just as effective and more easily attended... I've gotten a higher percentage of rude comments in evenings (5PMish) than mornings... then again, my mornings are 5AMish, before the unwashed masses are awake.


I'll take whatever morning/afternoon off, I'm in either way, I just need to know when.


ejwme
2010-08-08 17:24:51

I will skip work to do this. Luckily that's pretty easy for me, I don't know how large of a group we could get on a weekday morning.


tabby
2010-08-08 19:07:12

i vote morning. we would be going the wrong way to really screw with traffic and get the coverage we want in the evening.


if it was an evening ride i would still suggest the route stu mentioned as it would give a lot of jumping on points for people, and that we end at the county courthouse and do a ghost bike lockup right in front. that ought to turn a few heads.


cburch
2010-08-09 14:02:18

I'm also toying with temporarily wrapping my bike all in white for the ride. Maybe just gauze or something. What does anyone else think?


I see this as serving both to memorialize Don, but also drive home a message to the steering wheeled masses that it isn't just a bunch of bicyclists out for a morning cruise. Plus the black-or-red armbands, as before.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-09 14:10:51

I'd be happy to join for either the morning or the evening, provided that I'm in town when this happens.


I do think that an evening ride would likely have a higher turnout, though, which I think is even more important for sending the message than just impeding traffic.


hoffmannj
2010-08-09 14:35:15

I'm also toying with temporarily wrapping my bike all in white for the ride. Maybe just gauze or something. What does anyone else think?


i imagine a gauze-unravelling, bike-entangling disaster....


noah-mustion
2010-08-09 21:17:55

Maybe have the ride leader dressed in all white with white gloves and face makeup on a white bike? Or as many people wearing white as can manage.


helen-s
2010-08-09 21:25:19

White-out ghost ride?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-09 21:29:52

Hmm, a ghost ride. Shouldn't be too hard to throw an old white dress shirt or blouse over whatever else you have on. I was just going to do the bike (taping down the ends of the gauze, of course), but that sounds like a cool idea, too. It will also help in that I'll be making the McCandless to starting point trip at about 0-Dark:30, so I will need all the visibility I can muster.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-09 21:36:16

I imagine the seriousness & meaning of the ride would be compromised if people/bikes were dressed up. Think, "look at the zombies on bikes, there must be a festival or something." I would rather wear a pin-on sign on my back like a race number, only with the ghost bike/ROS message.


Anyone have access to tvak paper & printer?

What message or graphic would be appropriate?


marko82
2010-08-09 21:43:32

I have to agree with Marko on that one. A black/red armband and maybe a sign on that back. It's not that I have a problem with the white out concept, it's just I don't think the message would necessarily get across to motorists or the media.


Any thoughts on a date yet? One idea to throw out: August 27th is a Friday and would mark three months since the day Don Parker was killed, but that is still two and a half weeks away. Should it be sooner?


hoffmannj
2010-08-10 01:39:24

I think that weekend is also move-in weekend for a few colleges. It would attract the soccer-mom-vans from the burbs who likely don't see many cyclists.


joeframbach
2010-08-10 05:12:45

School is also in session in many districts, so traffic will be heavier. The date is OK by me.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-10 13:57:38

stef and i will still be in ny on that date, but if there is something i can do to help beforehand let me know.


cburch
2010-08-10 14:02:26

If the is down the ARB then count me in, I live not far from there and would love to be part of the ride.


dbacklover
2010-08-10 14:07:31

cburch:


what are you guys doing in NYC then? i will also be there


noah-mustion
2010-08-10 21:28:06

we are actually going to the adirondacks, not NYC.


stefb
2010-08-10 23:34:51

oh ick, i'm guilty of the very NYC-centric chauvinism about which i often bitch.


"oh, you're not from the city..."


noah-mustion
2010-08-10 23:39:39

Oh, what part of the adirondacks will you be in?


lyle
2010-08-11 00:32:48

...Oh, you're from Ohio...


ndromb
2010-08-11 01:15:30

Ah shit, you got to the essence of it didn't you.


Anyway that's flyover country to you, pal


noah-mustion
2010-08-11 01:43:54

i have no idea which part, lyle. i have never been there. family vacation. The inlaws have made the arrangements. wish we could do both vacation and the bike ride. I made the first ride of silence though.


stefb
2010-08-11 09:56:02

we will be in the old forge/inlet/eagle bay area. my grandparents live outside of eagle bay.


cburch
2010-08-11 13:59:31

Slight detour back to the topic with a question...


I can affix my crate to my bike, and was thinking of just putting "Don Parker" on it in big black letters on a piece of white paper. I figure maybe someone will go "hunh, what's a Don Parker? Hey, google that on your phone..." and might turn up some info.


Edited to add actual question: Does that sound like an ok idea, or is that weird, or would that just not achieve the results we're looking for (and potentially get a lot of people mad at "this blasted Don Parker parade"?


ejwme
2010-08-11 16:07:11

I think it's a cool idea. Similarly, I was thinking of taking a sharpie to a white t-shirt: "I AM DON PARKER."


Aren't all of us?


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-08-11 16:14:57

ALMKLM - I like that better. I'll at least put that on the sign, if not wear it on a T.


ejwme
2010-08-11 16:20:04

This on a shirt:


DON

PARKER

DIED

NEEDLESSLY


stuinmccandless
2010-08-11 16:26:42

"oh, you're not from the city..."


I jaywalked in NYC


NYCcop: HEY Pitts-BURGH!


Me: How'd ya know I'm from Pittsburgh?


NYCcop: Pittsburgh, St Louis, whadevah.


mick
2010-08-11 17:05:25

*bump*


in light of the thought process displayed in Wisconsin in a case with too many parallels ( http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/a-new-reason-to-have-a-3-ft-passing-law#post-44974 ) I figured I'd bump this up. August 27th was the date agreed on yes?


What new facts have come to light lately? New eyewitnesses come forth? New victims of the act? New test results? New physical evidence? New expert testimony? I'm curious, because I hadn't heard about a resolution so the new developments must still be coming in fast and furious. It's amazing that after all this time new information is still coming to light.


Time for an estimate of completion.


I'm not the speediest cyclist normally, but I vote we ride REALLY slowly the 27th. REALLY REALLY slowly.


ejwme
2010-08-17 18:58:36

@ejwme That Wisconsin case is completely disheartening. Thanks for bumping this up and returning attention to it - it would be horrible if ANOTHER district attorney decided not to follow up on a case because too much time had passed.


No one (aside from Stef and Colin) seemed to object to the 27th, so I think we should try to move forward with that date.


That evening is also a critical mass, Friday night at the track, among other things. So that revisits the question - morning or evening? I would favor the morning, I think, so as to not lose potential riders to those other events, but I'm curious about other people's thoughts.


Also, there's the question of route. Something like Allegheny River Blvd., as suggested earlier, would be good for visibility but potentially much harder logistically for a lot of people. An alternative would be to start at Dippy in Oakland and ride into town from there - less visible, perhaps, but easy-ish in that people won't have to worry as much about finding a way to get to the start. Thoughts/ideas?


hoffmannj
2010-08-17 22:44:32

Im in for the 27th, just need to know time and place. I am willing to take the day off work if need be. Im near ARB but can make it to dippy as well as long as it isnt either to early or to late.


dbacklover
2010-08-18 01:58:59

Let's do this! I have no preference, so just set the time & date and I'll be there.


bikeygirl
2010-08-18 04:20:37

I like morning, smack dab in the middle of the lemming run to work. Gives people a chance to gripe and talk about it at work.


I live out about five blocks from ARB, but I favor a nice, long, slow, very visible ride from anywhere. I'd rather a ride from the Oval (Mt Wash blvd) than Dippy, I think the parking at the oval is free (vs. Dippy, for any who would need to drive to the ride), and there's less traffic farther out... maybe. OTOH we could leave from somewhere closer to Don's neck of the woods and ride downtown from there, but I don't know how far that is or if that would eliminate anybody time/distance/parking-wise.


ejwme
2010-08-18 11:48:15

Let's do the morning of Friday the 27th. I'm working on logistics, but I'll post meeting times in a bit.


@ejwme, that's a good idea about the Oval. I think the biggest challenges with starting farther out on ARB (say, Oakmont) or in Fox Chapel are safely getting riders out to the meeting point, parking for anyone who needs to drive, and then getting anyone back out there who might have parked and needs to continue on to their workplace - while minimizing any perceived "inconveniences" that might keep people away from the ride.


I think having a large group present is very important, and I'd like to try to make sure that the route is as accessible to everyone as possible. An option could be meet at the Oval, and over the course of the ride (staying on visible, major arterial streets) stop by Oakland and pick up anyone who might not have been able to get out there in time before continuing on to the city.


I'm working on figuring out some of the logistics and will hopefully have a final location and time in the next day or two.


hoffmannj
2010-08-18 13:05:08

It might be better and more visible (depending on numbers) to have seperate groups start out (at the oval, at Dippy, On the Northside) and all converge on a single spot. this would only work out if we could get large enough groups (10 or 20 at least) at each group. then people from different areas would find it easier to meet and the total area affected would be larger. Like I said tho you would need a good size group at each place otherwise it will just look like a couple people riding bikes. Either the oval or Dippy is good for me. I live close to the oval but I can always find my way to oakland.


dbacklover
2010-08-18 13:32:36

If the separate groups starting out and converging on the city works out, I can try to gather a group from the South Hills. West Liberty Avenue with two lanes of cyclist would certainly gather attention.


ajbooth
2010-08-18 13:49:54

If we did a group each direction, N S E W, maybe one meet point farther out then one closer to pick up the urbanites, then converge. It sounds more complicated than it is(I think). Using east as an example, Suburban meet could be Oval, Urban meet could be Dippy, meet the other directions at court steps. Or just one urban meet point, if Dippy is convenient enough and there just aren't enough people otherwise.


ejwme
2010-08-18 14:52:45

Coming from north, I would be happy to figure out how to get to some point on ARB super-early in the morning, though joining a group coming down Butler past 40SB would be easier.


The bigger the pack, the more attention we draw. I'm for fewer, bigger groups.


stuinmccandless
2010-08-18 15:49:31

I think the timing should consider two things: the DA's schedule, and the suitability of the evening news. The TV news loves loves loves live standup events. But the thing will totally backfire if the DA gets on the news the next day and says "I woulda been there, but I was in court prosecuting a drug lord"


lyle
2010-08-18 16:05:02

I was wondering if anyone knows if the driver that killed Don Parker is going to be prosecuted. I was away for a good chunk of the summer, and was not able to find any references after searching the Post-Gazette recently.


TIA,

Bob


pghbikeguy
2010-10-14 19:22:39

the short answer is no.


ejwme
2010-10-14 20:02:32

We're approaching 11 months since the incident. Have there been any new developments?


sloaps
2011-04-17 23:39:36