BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

...any indication of how this will interact with Port Authority's plans for BRT, or if the two groups have even talked to each other...?

Yes they are talking. from what i understand, this will not interfere with BRT plans. Last I could tell, BRT will be using Bellefield and onto Fifth. The Squirrel Hill branch will be mixed into traffic after Bigelow.

These bike lanes can be seen in the BRT Oakland map.  You can see how they go in between Bigelow and Craig: http://www.portauthority.org/paac/Portals/0/BRT/Oakland.pdf There are a couple of spots where the bike lanes run right in front of a BRT stop. A portion of the inbound bike lane will run contraflow on Forbes, between Bellefield and Bigelow. Man, I hope they put some bollards there...

Anyone have a recap from last night?

The meeting was well attended, pretty much standing room only, but not as many as last time. I really gotta hand it to PennDOT, it may have been the best presentation that I've seen them give. It was informative, they did a good job explaining the complexities and what they were doing and why, and brought up and addressed many of the concerns that they received from the previous meeting and the commenting process. The plans look good too. I still have concerns, namely the intersection of Beeler/Forbes is still really wide and expansive. i'm not gonna lie, i have some concerns about the contra-flow bike lane from Bellefield to Bigelow. Also...Surtrac. Cheryl ended with an impassioned speech about how PennDOT is learning about multi-modal design and how much they've learned in this process. People left really positively, and there was even applause at the end.

Thanks for the report. Did they mention whether they were still planning to change the pedestrian signal at Craig to eliminate the current all-way crossing phase, and have pedestrians cross while cars were turning?

They said explicitly they will keep the all-walk signals at Morewood and Craig; someone suggested they also do Beeler and Bigelow and they said it would be considered.  I don't recall if Bellefield was mentioned, but frankly it would be almost impossible not to have an all-walk signal there.  

There are a couple of spots where the bike lanes run right in front of a BRT stop. A portion of the inbound bike lane will run contraflow on Forbes, between Bellefield and Bigelow. Man, I hope they put some bollards there…

Because the BRT design isn't finalized yet, the Forbes Ave design doesn't explicitly deal with it, but it is left flexible to allow for it.  Currently the bike lanes will simply run past the bus stops--including the big pull-off stops at CMU--but it was suggested floating bus stops (where the bus shelter, etc., would be moved to an island, with the bike lane moved behind the waiting area) be considered, and the project team said they'd think about it. It did not seem like they intend to put bollards up on the contraflow lane, but rather the design seemed to indicate only a double-yellow line would be used. I think, again, they said they'd think about doing something more substantial, but probably not in the initial install--the City intends to do a temporary, paint-only, install this year, with the State re-doing it when they pave next year. (A note on scheduling:  If I recall correctly, aside from the City's repainting between Bigelow and Craig, the intent is to work up final designs this fall, get bids and choose a contractor this winter, and then begin installing the upgraded and replacement traffic signals next spring and summer.  The paving will come hopefully late summer or perhaps early fall 2018.  There will be at least one more public meeting once they've chosen a contractor who'll actually do the work, in order to present the final (subject to weather, etc) schedule, as well as additional private meetings with the universities, hospitals, etc., to select blackout dates, plan alternate emergency-vehicle routes, etc.)

It did not seem like they intend to put bollards up on the contraflow lane, but rather the design seemed to indicate only a double-yellow line would be used. I think, again, they said they’d think about doing something more substantial, but probably not in the initial install–the City intends to do a temporary, paint-only, install this year, with the State re-doing it when they pave next year.

One thing that they didn't go over in the meeting was what they are thinking for the "final" design for the contra-flow lane. The City intends to put the contraflow with a double yellow sometime this summer. The final PennDOT plan calls for putting some parking in that location, and having a parking-protected, contraflow lane between Bellefield and Bigelow. PennDOT probably didn't mention this at the meeting because they are currently not allowed to install parking protected bike lanes on their roads. PennDOT Central office is currently trying to change the vehicle code to allow for parking protected bike lanes. They predict this will be accomplished by the time the final project is built. There are apparently legislative cosponsors in PA Congress and they intend to introduce the change in September. Now i'm sure you're thinking, "wait, didn't PennDOT install a parking protected bike lane on E Ohio St?" Yep. then they found out they weren't allowed. So now they have become advocates for this vehicle code change within legislature. ¯\_(?)_/¯

i guess the shrug emoji doesn't work on the site.

Article: http://wesa.fm/post/updated-plan-forbes-avenue-well-received-cycling-community#stream/0

The images and presentation from the meeting were finally posted today. Here's our write up and where you can view some of the details http://localhost/2017/08/01/bike-lanes-pedestrian-traffic-improvements-coming-forbes-ave-oakland/

Here's what the City intends to install this summer, with the contra-flow bike lane

So much excite. Looking forward to riding this once it's done. It will be nice to have more options for getting in/out/around oakland.

So if I'm reading this right, the city is going to make some changes this summer well ahead of knowing if the brt will even be funded or built, right?   Edit: new designs look great.  Hope they will be continued if the brt goes through.

So if I’m reading this right, the city is going to make some changes this summer well ahead of knowing if the brt will even be funded or built, right?

It'll just be paint, so by the time they're ready to do anything with BRT it'll be time to redo it anyway.  Also, I think most of what they're planning, at least with the inbound side, is also in the BRT plan, at least as it sits currently...

correct. they claim that this design won't affect anything that the Port Authority is planning with BRT. Port Authority was very involved in this design

Installation starts Tuesday: http://pittsburghpa.gov/mayor/release?id=7584

Here's the PG article. Get your commenting fingers warmed up. http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2017/08/11/Bike-lanes-Forbes-Avenue-Bigelow-Boulevard-North-Oakland/stories/201708110100

Ha, they seem to have comments turned off; good thinking. Also the poll has very gradually been shifting against bike lanes.

No, comments are there and the trolls are out in force.   Even Trump commented on it.

Here's an action shot of Bigelow.

Did they get rid of that head in parking in front of the cathedral?

i believe it will be parallel parking

well, more than believe. if you look at the image of the "interim" design that i posted above it shows the parking

Here's a blog post of images  that the city put together explaining the changes and new features to forbes http://localhost/2017/08/17/forbes-ave-changes-explained-contra-flow-bike-lanes-two-stage-turns/

Bikes lanes on Bigelow and Forbes, next to Cathedral, are in place.

A+ for the city trying to get as much done before the students come back.

here's some early shots of forbes: https://twitter.com/BikePedPGH/status/898311410349776896

My one big concern about these lanes in practice is that the bus waiting area on bigelow blvd may not provide enough space for busses in front of the cathedral of learning, which means busses may be parked partially in the bike lane as part of the regular routine.  It might be ample width for car parking, but possibly not for busses.

i have the same concerns, but i don't think this is the endgame. i get the sense that pitt really wants to completely redesign bigelow altogether to limit, if not exclude motor vehicles, but i think those plans will take several years to get together with community input, studies, etc.

Agreed.  Pitt is already half way there with closing Bigelow a lot during the fall semester.

https://www.pghcitypaper.com/Blogh/archives/2017/08/18/why-new-bike-lanes-in-pittsburghs-oakland-neighborhood-are-a-big-deal

just rode this today for the first time. was there around 4:30pm, which was clearly rush hour, because i went back around 5:30 and traffic was lighter. Cars were still flowing smoothly, and no back ups. I didn't realize how much of the lane was going to have bollards, i think they may have made that decision last minute. There are bollards in front of the Carnegie music hall (eastbound) as well as some on the contra-flow lane. Some observations: The contra-flow lane worked really well. Right now at the beginning of it there are about 1/2 block or so of water filled jersey barriers, then it goes to yellow bollards. So no surprise there that it felt fine. entering it was much easier than i predicted. heading westbound, you simply stop at bellefield and wait for the ped signal. There's some signs that say Bikes use Ped Signal. Kinda feel like it should say Bikes Wait for Ped Signal. Either way, it wasn't a long wait, and then it's an exclusive ped/bike crossing. It will definitely be improved with the addition of the bike signal. The end of the contra-flow lane at Bigelow was probably the weirdest part. It's only going to be an issue if you want to make the left toward the Hillman Library. The cars making the left from Forbes onto Bigelow act really shitty, to basically everyone and try to squeeze through the pedestrians. The best thing to do here is to stop or slow and basically act like a ped, because cars aren't yielding to anyone. Eastbound the only problem spots that i forsee are the right turn onto Schenley Dr extension. It just seems like it's unclear what to do, and cars should really merge into the bike lane to make the right turn in order to avoid the right hook. I didn't have any problems there, but i can see that being a potential issue. At Bellefield, they put in a way for bikes to make the left turn by going onto the sidewalk for a second, then crossing with the ped signal. In order to do this, there is a weird ramp in the bike lane, but it's not really a big deal. When PennDOT builds this next year, they are supposed to integrate this into the curb more officially. There are some drainage issues on Forbes, which may be a problem in the winter. It really needs to be repaved. Other than that, i thought it worked really well. Curious what other people's thoughts are.  

Also, i was quickly reminded how many cars just blow red lights thru this stretch. it's actually quite impressive/sad it's not quite clear how this section brings out the worst in drivers

Did I miss something? I think we just set up a deadly situation. I rode from Craig to Bellefield on Forbes yesterday on my way to the Flock ride. That involved getting in the left lane to get to the contra-flow lane. This is going to be a problem for any rider who is not already an experienced rider, since they are not going to understand you need to be in the left lane in order to safely get to the contra-flow lane. Your target audience for having these at all are inexperienced riders. Most of them are going to be in the right lane, and most of them are going to be curb-hugging right-lane users, and so are going to have the extremely unsafe situation of trying to get across right-turning traffic from cars in the left lane of inbound Forbes. I cannot see how nobody did not point this out beforehand. I guess it isn't politically wise or possible to do the right thing, which is to truly and properly mess up traffic flow by restricting inbound Forbes to one lane after Craig, drop speed to 15 mph, and force bikes and cars to use the same space so that bikes can get to the contra-flow lane. Where am I misunderstanding this? If anyone has a better explanation or solution to this, I would love to hear it.

Posting a 15 mph speed sign won't drop speed on that stretch.

Stu, I don't understand the issue. Craig to Bellefield would mean you'd be in the right lane, I think.

Yes, any cyclist would most likely be in the right lane. But to get to the westbound contra-flow bike lane that extends from Bellefield to Bigelow, you need to be in the left inbound lane on Forbes as you approach Bellefield. A cyclist in the right lane would be immediately creamed by a car turning right from the left inbound lane on Forbes. What am I missing here?

The fact that bikes in the bike lane are supposed to stop there and wait for their own signal, rather than trying to cross with auto traffic which is, indeed, turning across them. This could probably be signed better, though I haven't actually seen that side of things myself.

Someone please post video showing this in action. I missed that because I didn't know it existed, so executed a left lane change instead.

The sign's there. I'll try to get a photo of it today. Maybe it needs to be more obvious, but remember, this is temporary until the traffic signal can be reworked to have a dedicated bicycle phase. [Earlier explanation deleted.]

I will reserve judgment until I see the final product in action. I am not yet cynical, merely skeptical, and a bit worried.

Here are some photos of the current state of things for westbound cyclists. (Click for bigger.) First, cyclists in the westbound bike lane pass many signs, including this bunch just past Dithridge. The "All traffic must turn right" sign needs an "Except Bikes" addition (as with the "Wrong Way" signs farther along Forbes, which already have these). Just as cyclists reach the Bellefield intersection, they should see the first of two "Bikes use ped signal" signs: The second sign is just past the Bellefield intersection, as the contraflow bike lane begins: I think these signs are sufficiently visible for cyclists who are actually in the bike lane, but a cyclist might, as Stu did, move left well before the first sign, if he knows that there's a contraflow lane but not that there's a good way to get there from the bike lane. But I'm not convinced that will be common enough in the future that it needs to be "fixed" with more signage. I expect novices will just stay in the bike lane and see the signs. A note about the traffic signaling at Bellefield. At it is now, even if no one pushes the pedestrian signal, there's a phase where east-west pedestrians get a walk signal, along with eastbound traffic on Forbes that's continuing straight, not turning. (Westbound traffic gets a red light and a "No turn on red" sign.) So even with no dedicated bike signal, cyclists entering the contraflow lane should only have to contend with pedestrians moving in parallel to them, no cars.

I guess the question is, if bikers use the peds signal to cross and get into the contraflow bike lane, will they be queuing up in the right lane on Forbes and backing up motorist/bus traffic trying to turn right onto Bellefield?  If so, that could lead to angry drivers and confrontations.

Stu: there is no crossing of lanes - just stay in the bike lane. If you are going westbound on Forbes (from Craig) you simply follow the ped signal (like the signs say) and stop at the light on bellefield (unless you have the walk signal). Then you just continue straight (during the walk phase). At this point it becomes "contra-flow" because Forbes is one way, except bikes. edronline: if you stay in the bike lane at Bellefield, cars simply just make the right turn and you're not in the way

Also, this intersection should be getting a bike signal next year to replace the "bikes use ped signal"

Well, OK, I believe you. I will have to see it in action. Again, I am not cynical, just unconvinced.

check out this vid https://www.instagram.com/p/BYEgJQ0jIE9/ .

blog post that goes with it   http://localhost/2017/08/21/video-use-new-forbes-ave-contra-flow-bike-lane/

i also found out the bike signal may be in by next month, instead of next year like i originally thought

The contraflow lane is pretty cool. Good news on the light, I think that will be a good change to reduce confusion. Took it twice this week inbound. My biggest concern was with traffic making a left on to S. Dithridge as there were several vehicles attempting to do this maneuver. I yielded to a car to allow them to complete their turn this morning. Looks like they changed the barricade setup for student arrival @ Bigelow and made it easier to traverse the copenhagen left / hook turn while allowing cars to turn in to the area between 5th and Forbes.

West-bound Forbes at Bellfield is very reasonable. You can even punch the pedestrian cross button without that much effort, though you have to reach around the pole. Minor musings: - a couple of the Jersey (shore?) barrier seemed to be leaking. I guess this doesn't quite matter unless a row of them develop problems. - But are these permanent or will they be replaced by (serious) bollards? Pittsburgh does get below-freezing temperatures in the winter. Does the filler water get salt / anti-freeze?

@Stu, A traffic light for bikes should go green during part of the cycle in which any turns except for bikes is forbidden.

@Ahlir: – But are these permanent or will they be replaced by (serious) bollards? Pittsburgh does get below-freezing temperatures in the winter. Does the filler water get salt / anti-freeze? These are not permanent. I think originally, they were planning on no protection for the first year, then they must have changed their mind. Forbes will be ripped up in 2018 and repaved. The 2018 goal is to move the parking that's currently on the Schenley Plaza side, to the Cathedral side, creating a parking protected bike lane there. Plaza side, the bike lane will be next to the curb.

Also, that signal will give the walk signal without needing to press the beg button

Does the electronic "No turn on red" sign on Forbes Ave. Westbound at Bellefield Ave. ever not light up during the red phase? The same goes for said signs in Downtown and Millvale as well. Every time I am in these locations, The sign is active.

[making a note to myself to cross-post to this thread the video I made yesterday]

Rode the contraflow lane with the signal today.  It was awesome.

I've ridden this twice now and both times made mistakes that put me in the path of traffic. It takes some getting used to. And the second time there was an idiot bicyclist coming the other way, too. Dude...

This discussion board told me how to do it. Even with the light and signs it is still a tad confusing.  Some markers on the road, like "one way" and arrows would help.

Yesterday, There were cars parked in the eastbound bike lane. I got it on video. https://youtu.be/lwJK8u8Qffw  

911 it. (For future reference. Too late now, of course. If you want the law enforced, call 911.)

@zz: Well, get the license plates on video so there's evidence. Then get in touch with the authorities. The situation you video'd is pretty out there (so to speak). But it's pretty common around there, especially on Bayard/Bigelow. My own attitude is that, if I can ride by without feeling that I'm in danger then I can live with it. On the other hand, this is one more data point for getting a camera...

@Ahlir, Was how I knocked on the window an explained the situation the right thing to do? @jonawebb, I do not want to call 911 for non-emergency situations.

@zz, fair enough. But let me relay some advice from my brother-in-law, who was a cop in DC: "Whenever you see something wrong, call the police. They're not doing anything else."

Well, you never know what a driver might do; they're already doing something wrong. It's safer to leave them alone. Calling 911 is ok; they will decide what to do. Chances are there's patrol car cruising nearby and it's easy enough to swing by. And as Jon points out, it's their job.

I do blame people parking somewhat, but in this case the city didn't yet move the parking signage, so it does appear that the end of the parking zone is in the bike lane. Look closely I can see people being a bit confused after one person parks over the diagonal transition of the bike lane, because then it masks the fact that the bike lane shifted to where the parking lane is. I put in a 311 request a couple days ago about moving the parking sign back to before the kink in the bike lane.  Additional 311 requests might not hurt though.

Here's an image with the parking sign visible. (Look right under stop here on red sign). https://imgur.com/gallery/4DgSR

FYI. Parking sign has been moved to before the bike lane transition (at least as of yesterday evening). Nobody was parked in the bike lane when I rode through.

Ok, good

Today, I was heading south on Bigelow Blvd. On the block between 5th Ave. and Forbes Ave., there was a school bus parked in the bike lane.

Why is there so much speeding on Forbes Ave. and 5th Ave.? The traffic lights are timed such that if you are traveling at the speed limit (25MPH), you will not have to stop once passing the light at Bellefield Ave. I also think a RRFB or HAWK crosswalk should be installed halfway between Bouquet St. and Bigelow Blvd. on Forbes Ave. as I was once run off the road near there trying to get from Bouquet St. to the 7-11 store.   This was cross-posted from Liberty Ave Thread.

What is the chance that someone who just saw Oakland for the first time ever would think that Forbes Ave. was designed to prioritize cyclists based on these photographs? http://s6.postimg.org/nmau5srap/DSC00013.jpg http://s6.postimg.org/8nsfbdc8h/DSC00017.jpg http://s6.postimg.org/pctv7a8tt/DSC00021.jpg

Thinking inside the box, or something.

Sidewalk-assisted Copenhagen Left!  This will be a really nice touch when it's formalized in the bigger project next year.   https://vimeo.com/219134704

@NMR: I agree that something like this will be great when they finally rebuild the street. But the current version just doesn't work. When you ride by the first thing that strikes you (well, me) is that there's a light pole right in the middle of the jug handle. I accept that the angle of my photo doesn't quite bring this out. But my intent was to show that good intentions don't always translate into good implementations. What they're doing (I hope) is trying, by trial and error, to learn how to make this stuff work. You'll note that the jug in the video you point to is placed within the pole line to avoid this problem. But of course it's Pittsburgh, and sidewalks are mostly not wide enough to accommodate such layouts. The sidewalk in front of the Carnegie looks wide, but only in context. At the very least the line should have been a broken one, to license crossing into pedestrian space. I'm not a traffic engineer, but I do fancy myself as a (cycling-oriented) amateur: I would make the whole thing fit in between the pedestrian cross-walks, with its own curb-cut(s), separate from the ADA ones. Ideally the roadway will have been narrowed to allow things to fit better. The area in any case needs all the traffic calming it can get.

I must say, this layout is counter intuitive. You need to stay on the right and ride on the sidewalk to go left.   What? And, yes, the sidewalk will be nutty crowded sometimes.  And the light pole.   This is going to end up as a "what were they thinking?  15 hilarious pictures of design failure" clickbait post.

2018 continuation of thread! Attend this, if you can. This has gotten precious little attention.   Come and hear from Gulisek Construction, LLC, the Contractor, and Project Partners about design plans for the Forbes Avenue Betterment Project, including project management, schedule and safety. Thursday, March 1, 2018 Carnegie Mellon University Cohon University Center Rangos 2 – 2nd floor 5 PM – 7 PM

I cannot because it is too late. Why always so late? Any meeting starting after 3:30 PM I will not be able to attend until the clocks are changed. Can't they have one around 1:00 on a Saturday for people who are jobless and do not want to deal with crowded buses?

Nobody loves weekday evening meetings, but as @chrishent wrote the last time you asked this, it's the one single time that works least-poorly for the most people. Consider that those who are holding the meeting must be paid for their time, as well as those who maintain and otherwise staff the buildings in which they are held.  It is expensive to hold them in the evenings, after work, when they are accessible to the greatest possible number of people; holding them on the weekend, when all the consultants and engineers must take extra time out of their lives, not to mention paying the janitors, security, and other personnel required to open a building up to public use, is orders of magnitude more expensive. Meetings are scheduled so that as many people as possible might be able to come to one single meeting.  Until administrations start providing vastly greater budgets for increasing the number, accessibility, and flexibility of such meetings--likely around the fifth of never--there will only ever be one meeting per phase of any project, and it will be on a midweek evening, around an hour after most people get off work depending on how far they expect people to travel to it*, in English**. (* The fact that the meeting starts at 5 is a good indicator that the people they're particularly interested in hearing from are those who work nearby, especially the CMU staff whose campus the project traverses.  Also that everyone else wants to go home, too. ** Towns which are larger and have greater numbers of people who don't speak English may have meeting materials in other languages, but the presentations and discussions are usually still in English.)

@Buffalo, So, does that mean meetings that are intended for residents within a larger radius might start earlier and/or on a Saturday?

Saturday--perhaps, depending on space availability; DC recently held a meeting regarding a proposal to convert certain streetlights to LED on a Saturday afternoon, at a public library.  DC, however, is at least twice the population of Pittsburgh and at least 30% larger geographically.  You'd also better be providing childcare--which is a whole other barrel of enormous expenses. However, more likely is that they'd be held at a different time on a weekday evening--later, not earlier.  If, for example, you want people who get off work at 5pm possibly several miles away to show up at a meeting near their homes, you'd have the meeting start at 6 or even 7pm. You will almost never see meetings start before 5pm on a weekday, except the occasional lunch-time meeting, unless they're part of a scattered series of meetings held at a variety of times; while it's difficult to get people to take time out of their evenings or weekends, especially if you're not providing food and childcare, it's almost impossible to get people to take time out of their paying jobs...

Do you mean the city limits or metropolian area?

Z, you are the only person not working a night shift for which 5-7p is too late. I work daylight, and will be lucky to make it to the building by 6:15, let alone find the venue and have any chance to soak in what’s going on. And I am only traveling from downtown to Oakland. Now can we please discuss the substance of the proposal rather than the scheduling?

Here's our post about the meeting, hope it's helpful. In short, I haven't seen any final drawings yet, so don't know specific details. but from what can say, the new bike lanes are supposed to be extended from Craig St to Margaret Morrison. They will be on each side of the street and buffered. I believe they will get a bit narrow across the bridge. Don't think it's changed much from the last meeting, although there was a lot of talk about different ways to handle the bike lanes at the bus stops. Also, there was talk about moving the parking in front of Schenley Plaza to the other side of the street, in front of the cathedral, as a parking protected bike lane. however, the bill to legalize moving parking away from the curb in PA is stuck in the Senate, so it will be interesting to see how PennDOT handles this.

it appears construction on this project will begin March 8!

I still do not see anything about a cycle track replacing the contraflow bus lane on 5th Ave. Is that still proposed in the BRT plan?

Don't parking-protected bike lanes = DZBL?

Every evening, I go east on Forbes and then turn north on Moorewood. With the road and signal changes, I'm wondering how my commute across this intersection will be impacted. In the current road configuration: usually that's pretty ok for me but automobile traffic behind me is slowed down since we share a lane and they can't pass. About every couple weeks, I can't cross from the right lane to the left-turn lane because cars won't let me in, so I end up having to stay right and then use the pedestrian beg button to cross at Moorewood, and it takes a very long time for the light to change. With the bike lane that will be installed:  I'm wondering if there will be a  bicyclist beg-button, and if so how long it will take (average and maximum) to change the light. The latest intersection design I've seen doesn't have a left-turn bicycle lane. I love bicycle lanes, but I'm concerned this intersection is going to become an annoying delay if I use the (go-straight-only) bike lane... which will mean that then I am going to use the left-turn road lane and delay the drivers, who are going to be upset because they see a bike lane they think I belong in. I will be at the meeting! Looking forward to learning about the mostly-wonderful changes planned for Forbes. Plus, maybe sharing my input on this particular intersection might help the planners to help me with it.

@Lori, Why don't you take Craig St. or Bellefield Ave.? If you turn right from Craig St. onto 5th Ave. at the beginning of the exclusive pedestrian interval, you can make it to Neville St. on red and get a protected left. Once on Neville St., turn right onto Ellsworth Ave. This way, you avoid the climb between the Boundary St. bridge and Morewood Ave. as well. I'll video it tomorrow if the weather permits.

@zzwergel: That route would be out of my way. The intersection is on my commute, only question is how bike-friendly the changes will be for turning there.

if there's no left turn lane, will the intersection be crazy backed up during rush hours due to cars turning left from forbes onto morewood?  I can't see them re-doing the intersection and not having a left turn lane... or am I confused?   you're allowed to get out of your bikelane to make a left turn.  If the bike lane is 100% physically separated, then they should have some sort of mechanism to facilitate a left turn by a bike onto morewood.

Last version of the Forbes improvement plan that I have seen, there is a left-turn lane (regular lane, and yes bikes are legal in it). However, not a bike-only separated left-turn lane. This means that the current situation I described would still happen, but worse: cars behind me in the left-turn lane still cannot pass me (and I'm a rather slow bicyclist), but some non-bicyclist drivers will see the bicycle lane on the right and think I should be in it. (Their frustration and lack of education makes for a more dangerous situation for me, when I'm in that left-turn lane.) Would be awesome if the new road design will include a left-turn bicycle lane. Will let you all know what I learn at the meeting.

Left turning on a bike at Moorewood & Forbes was also one of my biggest concerns with the redesign.

My assumption is that there will be a dedicated left turn lane no matter what else changes with the finalized design. Slide 36 of the July 2017 presentation shows a proposal for the morewood-forbes intersection. http://forbes.otmapgh.org/downloads/Forbes-Avenue-Public-Meeting-Presentation-2017-07-17.pdf Note that the diagram shows a left turn box dedicated to bikes. It is an indentation in the right hand curb. That could take a while for people to get used to. I've never used a box on the right side of the road to wait while turning left. If the bike lane isn't separated by a barrier, I'll probably end up merging into the normal left turn lane. One issue with this type of design is that experienced/frequent bikers tend to use the normal left turn lane. Meanwhile, less confident or inexperienced bikers don't know how to use the bike box to do a two stage left turn. The result is the bike turn box getting relatively little use.

If there's a bike beg button and the average and max wait times are short, then people will (once they discover it) use the bike box on the right. However, if the current pedestrian beg button wait-times are maintained, hardly any bicyclists will ever use it. It currently takes way too long, in my experience.

@lori, Where are you coming from?

I think the left turn "indentation" treatments at Bellefield and Morewood will actually turn out to be pretty ingenious solutions and applaud the city for trying something new to them. This situation, left turn from bike lane at three-legged intersections, is really tough for a designer. Especially without the real estate to do a Dutch-style "protected" intersection. Most of the time the turn treatment is simply ignored, leaving the turning cyclist to just sit in the bike lane like a dingus hoping for cars to let them turn and that another cyclist going straight doesn't come out behind them. These left turn "indentations" will work to separate turning cyclists from those going straight and provide more room to actually make the turn itself. Check out this Streetfilms video of "Sidewalk-Assisted" Copenhagen Lefts installed by the city of Cambridge: https://vimeo.com/219134704

@lori, Are you coming from Hamburg Hall or one of the buildings much closer to Morewood Ave?

I still do not see anything about a cycle track replacing the contraflow bus lane on 5th Ave. Is that still proposed in the BRT plan? Yes and it's not part of this project

as far as the left turn onto morewood (which is supposed to have the cut-out for the two-stage left), i assume it will be treated similar to how i, and a lot of people treat the left turn onto craig st. During busy rush hour times, and the left turn lane is backed up, I tend to continue straight and do the two-stage left onto craig, as it's the quickest and most efficient. during non rush hour, i'll use the left turn lane, as it's the quickest and most efficient at that time of day. My big concern is that Morewood, unlike Craig, does not have a traffic light from CMU campus. It only really has a walk signal, so unless a bike signal is in place as well, then bikes will have to use the walk signal. As we all know, this is technically illegal, and i know people who have gotten tickets at this exact intersection for going at the walk signal. i just want to make sure that's thought out and dialed.

@zz, this isn't about where she is coming from and going to anymore but about the larger picture of the intersection in general and how bikes will make left turns.

I don't understand why someone would want to climb Forbes Ave. coming from Oakland just to turn left onto Morewood Ave. and go back down the hill unless they were coming from Hamburg Hall or another CMU building that is much closer to Morewood Ave. than it is to Craig St. It would be much easier to descend the Hill on Forbes Ave. and turn right onto Craig St. If someone was coming from Squirrel Hill. Turning right to Morewood Ave to access Ellsworth Ave., Centre Ave., Baum Blvd., or Millvale Ave. would make more sense. In my opinion, A left turn from Forbes Ave. onto Morewood Ave. can be completely avoided in most circumstances due to the climb on Forbes Ave. just to descend Morewood Ave. Why climb more than necessary?

there's lots of reasons. It's very direct. One turn. they have a blank slate. let's get it right. that is all

I agree. Then the bike lanes are extended, it will be more direct by about 1/4 mile. Until the road improvements are made, the 1/4 mile discrepancy in the trip from Hamburg Hall to the intersection of Morewood Ave. and Centre Ave. more than makes up for climbing a hill from Hamburg Hall to Morewood Ave. in the right lane with aggressive fast moving traffic prior to abruptly changing into the passing/left turn lane in the current road configuration. Before the bike lanes are extended, I would,

• Head west from Hamburg Hall on Forbes Ave.
• R. Craig St.
• R. 5th Ave. (into passing lane at the beginning of the Barnes dance, walk if police are present.)
• L. Neville St.
• R. Ellsworth Ave.
• L. Morewood Ave.

This is a little out of the way, but it is much less stressful.

@zz et al. : This isn't about ideal routes for bikers; it's about providing options for bikers. Just like the drivers get. We "own" the streets as much as they do and we should be able to go where we want.

@Ahlir, That is true. Then something can be done about Washington Blvd., Bigelow Blvd. (inbound from Craig St.), and the Liberty Tunnel as well.

Info from the meeting: The good news is there's supposed to be a light for bicyclists waiting in the cutout area (south side of Forbes at intersection with Moorewood). The bad news is that possibly the current plan is for the bikers' light to be green simultaneous with the car left-turn onto Moorewood signal, where drivers won't be looking out for bikes to be merging with them from their right while they turn left. A pedestrian and bicycle safety person (name Katie?) said she will work with the planners to help get something safe worked out, because as she said it's definitely not safe to mix bicyclists and the turning cars. She was knowledgeable about the bike cutouts, apparently radar will used to sense that a bicyclist is there, and make the light change. Bikers brought up more issues about the intersection:

• wanting a light that allows safely turning left (or straight) into CMU campus from Moorewood. Asked: could that be added to the intersection plan?
• for it to be legal for bicyclists to cross with the pedestrian signal, there would have to be special signage. Asked: will there be such special signage?

The official folks presenting said they will look into bicycle concerns about this intersection, and will communicate with Bike Pittsburgh to let us know the plan. Also they encouraged us to email questions to the Oakland Transportation Management Association: info@otma-pgh.org. I forgot to ask about how long the average and max wait times for bicyclists will be at that intersection, so I will email them that question, now. Notes on additional topics:

• Unfortunately no bicyclist safety improvements as part of this project to the western part of Forbes  (their 'zone 1', Birmingham Bridge to Bigelow Boulevard) that merges with a highway. They will only resurface it. (I'm personally very disappointed about that. I've biked along those highway-speed cars there many times, and it's a very scary place to ride.)
• Bikers mentioned safety issues turning from the bike lane into driveways with steep height differences much higher than the road (since the bicyclist isn't turning at a perpendicular angle, like needed for railroad tracks and these driveways). The contractor won't be addressing that, and laws require minimum height differences for drainage. However, there are maximum height differences due to the ADA. As Mary Shaw mentioned, the way to make the driveways safe is to change the edge of the driveways so the height difference is angled.
• By the end of October the Forbes improvements are scheduled to be completed
• Rainwater management on Forbes will be fixed by the project, according to the contractor. For pedestrians, no more enormous puddles for passing vehicles to spray all over you! (e.g., if you're walking on the bridge by CMU) For bicyclists, we won't have to ride through ponds in the bike lanes.

Nice summary Lori. I'm the one who was against the side wall, and asked about the signal, and about how they were  just like, "yeah, you can just cross at the all walk" while crossing at the all-walk has led to bicyclists get tickets. The bad news is that possibly the current plan is for the bikers’ light to be green simultaneous with the car left-turn onto Moorewood signal, where drivers won’t be looking out for bikes to be merging with them from their right while they turn left. I talked to Katie after the meeting. She's one of the City's traffic engineers. Because it's a PennDOT owned road, in the City, they have arrangements in place on how they work together, approvals, etc. One thing to realize is that the guy answering those questions was a project manager, not a traffic engineer. He clearly didn't know what he was talking about, but it was a shame because he answered with such certainty, and PennDOT didn't have their engineers on hand to answer the technical questions. You could see that with how he didn't know how to answer the simple question on what type of signal it would be. Katie told me that he, indeed, didn't know what he was talking about, and said that they will not be green at the same time. She didn't really give me too many details, but assured me that she'll follow up with us on it. Here's a link to our twitter thread from the meeting: https://twitter.com/BikePGH/status/969333021152370689

Trolls out in force, of course http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/01/Forbes-Avenue-in-Oakland-to-get-major-overhaul/stories/201803020133

here's a PG article http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2018/03/01/Forbes-Avenue-in-Oakland-to-get-major-overhaul/stories/201803020133

I think the weave area with traffic coming from the Parkway should be converted into a Y-intersection with a stop sign and other signage notifying about bicycles at the end of the ramp. Forbes Ave should continue as two lanes from the Birmingham Bridge intersection to the left lane off ramp from the Blvd. or the Allies. Installing bike boxes on the eastern sides of the Craft Ave., Halket St., McKee Pl., and Meyran Ave. intersections will aid in cyclists turning left from Forbes Ave. onto their respective western sides. Left turns to Atwood St. and Oakland Ave. can be made via:

• R. Meyran Ave.
• L. Sennott St.
• L. Atwood St. or Oakland Ave.

 

More comments from the public meeting this past week. People are gonna go where people are gonna go The job of the designer is to lay out the space so people naturally go where they "should" (presumably wherever is best and safest for overall flow).  Four elements of the design should be revisited with this in mind:

1. The Morewood intersection.  Cyclists are going to cross in the all-walk cycle. They just are.  So design the intersection to provide a route for cyclists that avoids the pedestrians.  For example, put the bicycle entry to campus directly across from the centerline of Morewood, away from the crosswalks (and next to the left-from-Forbes-to-Morewood pullout).  Then post the intersection to say bikes may use the all-walk.
2. Bus stops without bus pullouts.  They need to decide whether the bus should go to the curb or whether they want to do what they proposed on Stanwix (raise the bike lane between the curb and the bus stop).  If the bus pulls to the curb, cyclists have a choice between waiting and passing the stopped bus; many will pass.  The challenge here is to design this so the bus drivers will get back into the street instead of driving up the bike lane.  If they decide to keep the bus out of the bike lane (Stanwix plan) they need to figure out how to persuade the bus riders they should wait on the curb, not IN the bike lane and the cyclists that they shouldn't just blast through the people waiting for and boarding the bus.
3. There was also a question about a green marking that might have been a turn box but was identified as a striped driveway crossing, no left turn permitted there. I don't recall details, but my reaction at the time was that it was a natural place for cyclists to turn left, so something should be planned.
4. The new mid-block between Bouquet and Bigelow -- is this underneath the 2nd-flor bridge that no one will climb up to to cross the street?  Have they thought about how to get pedestrians to wait for the light before crossing, rather than flooding continuously across the crosswalk (think consistency with the mid-block crossing on Bigelow)?

Incidentally, I was at the symphony last night (excellent performance, BTW). There's an all-walk cycle at sixth and Penn, next to Heinz Hall.  Pedestrians were freely crossing with the traffic greens as well as the all-walk.  They're gonna go where they're gonna go. Consistency matters This whole bike lane vs bus stop thing is new.  The City should figure out how to handle it and do it the same way everywhere.  It's going to be hard enough to get everyone to understand ONE way to handle this properly.  Having different protocols for different routes will confuse everyone. Similarly, the left-at-T-intersection we see at Bellefield and Morewood is new.  Be sure those are handled consistently at all locations (not all intersections have the all-walk, so they can't be identical).  There is similar confusion about when bikes should cross the Schenley Drive intersection at the end of the cycle track (near the carousel).  The issue is that all cars are turning either left or right, since they're coming out of the stem of the "T".  Note to people earlier in this thread who thought the whole idea is strange -- think of these like the jug-handle lefts for cars, for example out Route 22: Instead of queueing up left turns in the traffic lanes, they add a little ramp to the right which quickly swings back to cross the road at right angles (at a stop sign or light).  It's the same idea here, just takes up less space. See above about consistency of protocols at mid-block crossings, for example the ones on Forbes and Bigelow.  Maybe a light should be added to interrupt the continuous flow of pedestrians on Bigelow. I'm personally a fan of approving bicycle use of all-walks everywhere unless there is a very good reason not to, with understanding that pedestrians have the right of way, just as they do when they are in a crosswalk on an ordinary green and a bicyclist or motorist wants to turn across the crosswalk. I've often said the same thing about crosswalk markings. The city seems to be standardizing on hi-viz piano keys, which is much better than the variety we were getting a few years ago. Necessary vs sufficient There was discussion of the rule for a 1.5" drop from a driveway to the road.  The consultant explained that it's a requirement, mentioning runoff from the driveway to the street, not from street to driveway.  I asked why it had to be a vertical lip rather than a beveled one.  His answer seemed to be "because" or "rules is rules".  As numerous people noted, a vertical drop is a safety issue for bicycles Someone should check on what the actual requirement is.  I wouldn't be surprised if the requirement is for the elevation difference but not the profile of the lip.  It's probably easier to construct a vertical lip, and that is certainly a sufficient design -- it satisfies the requirement.  It was not clear to me, however, that the vertical lip is a necessary part of the design -- other profiles might be allowed.  In particular, safer ones might be allowed. This would not be the first time I encountered  a highway design where the consultant really wanted to use a familiar design element that he knew would work rather than going to the effort of getting a variation approved.

After playing back video I got during my ride today, I noticed the traffic light and parking lot across from Hamburg Hall is gone. It appears that there still is a crosswalk at this location. What are they building there? Also why is the middle lanes near Beeler St. all dug up?

Short answer:  Beeler is planned work by PWSA; work will continue to Mon/Tues.  Hamburg light is probably related to the Forbes Betterment project, see link below; the project will also install bike lanes.  Not sure which parking lot you're talking about -- the one where the new building is went away a long time ago. OTMA should have been publicizing this.  Here are three messages from CMU to staff and neighbors ========1, from CMU to neighbors about whole project ==== Two updates on the Forbes Avenue Betterment Project: 1.  PennDOT has made available a copy of the presentation used at last Thursday evening’s public meeting on the construction scope and timeline; it can be found here.  It will soon be posted to PennDOT’s website for the project:  http://forbes.otmapgh.org/ 2.  I have forwarded below this week’s e-newsletter from Oakland Business Improvement District (OBID).  As you will see, it includes a two-week look-ahead schedule for construction.  If you would like to join this e-newsletter list to get updates like these in the future, please visit:  http://onlyinoakland.org/contact/ and submit your email address in the light blue box located halfway down the page. ========= 2, from CMU to staff and neighbors re this weekend ====== PWSA has confirmed that crews will be working this weekend to repair: (1) a water line and valve at the intersection of Beeler Street and Forbes Avenue, and (2) a water valve at the intersection of Morewood Avenue and Forbes Avenue.  Digging activities will start around 7:00pm on Friday, March 9, and water shut-off and repair work will occur on Saturday, March 10, beginning as early as 5:00am and ending as late as 5:00pm. We have determined for certain that the water outage will affect university buildings located on the eastern side of campus and along Morewood Avenue.  PWSA believes that the outage should NOT affect the surrounding neighborhoods, but it will not be known for certain until the water has actually been shut-off. As a precautionary measure, I would suggest that near-campus neighbors reserve some water prior to the outage.  Also, please know that the Cohon University Center (which will not be affected by the outage) will be open and available for restroom use from 5:30am to 6:00pm on Saturday. ============== 3, further on this weekend ====== PWSA has identified  potential additional repairs associated with the Forbes/Beeler water shutdown on Saturday March 10th which might require digging at the intersection of Forbes and Morewood on Monday, March 12th from 7pm to 6am.  This would be necessary in order to prepare for a water line repairs to be done Tuesday, March 13th and there would be traffic interruptions both Monday and Tuesday from 7PM to 6AM.  The buildings listed below would be without water from 7pm to 6am on Tuesday, March 13th.  We will send an update on Monday if this is needed.