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I love seeing so many people on the trails, but... (suggestions?)

More people on bikes makes me so happy. But I am worried about how congested the trails are, esp now the GAP is complete. Yesterday the point/jail trail was a hot mess. I can't imagine things at the S Side were any better. Here are some ideas that might help: 1) can we get a dotted yellow line like a road down the middle of the trails? This might get the ride left, pass right idea across. And might curtail the people who walk/run/ride 4-5 abreast blocking the trail. 2) signage at entry points/parking lots. * A speedlimit. I know this is not going to be a popular idea and I am guilty of going way too fast on the jailtrail myself. But like speeding through a residential neighborhood, hauling ass down a crowded urban trail is dangerous. * littering law with fines posted (and enforced, but that may be too much to ask) * stay right except to pass. * a notice to remind people to look both ways before stepping into the trail. Other ideas? Some people will say RULES SUCK rabblerabblerabble and I actually agree. But honestly the trail conditions are starting to really scare me. Recently my friend got a nice trip to the ER when someone walked out in front of him. I am worried a kid is going to get mowed down by a cat 6er.
sarah_q
2013-06-30 08:11:49
I do think that the "early adopters" (like many of the folks here) got used to having trail segments mostly to ourselves, or at least everybody out there had a clue, and now that it's not a RandomActOfCourage to ride to the Waterfront I'm all like Damn, where did all these people come from and why are they trying to kill me? I think Sarah_Q's quite right that the solutions/norms that worked last year won't be suitable next year or even this year. That's just a sign of growth and success and that's OK. I'm absolutely convinced that there's an education and training need to help equip all the newcomers to succeed, co-exist, and enjoy the trail. Just because a trail segment opens doesn't mean they have any clue about good behaviors, and if we don't provide signage and guidance on expectations then we're essentially submitting the process to Darwinisn (film at eleven). When I go to other cities' busy-congested trail networks, I see adaptations. For instance, in DC and NY I definitely see centerline marking - and the place locally where I'd most like to see centerline making is the Sandcastle segment. I see presentations of Who yields to Whom - and generally cyclists yield to everybody. I see signs that say, max leash length is six feet, which I really appreciate so I don't end up between Owner and Precious on a 20' stretch leash. This is from Nashville TN: The most popular new trail sections have an opportunity for new user education and maybe even evangelism. I spoke with YC and the Steel Valley folks are thinking about this. It's both a problem and an opportunity. We could be selling those folks BikePgh memberships, I suppose, and offer a "How To Ride the Pgh Trails" online tutorial. That would be spiffy and bring new people to the website.
vannever
2013-06-30 08:30:05
I agree with the ideas about signs, etc., but in the meantime we're just going to have to slow down and watch out. We are now like motorists and should treat other trail users the way we'd like to be treated on roads. No speeding, four foot rule applies, etc.
jonawebb
2013-06-30 08:58:51
Agreed! There's no signage whatsoever down by the Point and PNC Park. I don't see signage along the PNCPark/Jail Trail until you get well into Chateau. As someone who rides to baseball games and then attempts to use the trail to get back to a car parked in Chateau, negotiating a crowd of drunken Pirates fans is a slow, bell-heavy task. Last night with the fireworks made it impossible for anyone to even hear a bell. My blinky lights were no distraction to the craned necks of the Oooers and Ahhers completely blocking the RiverWalk. I think I needed an air-horn, mirror ball and a strobe light.
rustyred
2013-06-30 09:08:07
My suggestion is probably a bit different. Conform and enjoy the fact that people are possibly starting a journey on a bike. There may be some first timers out there and I feel it isn't the time to educate them with some sort of force. They will educate themselves a little at a time. I think signs are good to help people understand how to ride on trails, but I don't feel it is good for experience cyclists to yell or TELL people so much. Take it easy on them. Never try and "make time" on a trail. Keep in mind, they are on our side and who knows, might be future commuters into work. It starts with trails and possibly group rides. We want them to love it! LOVE! The more who really enjoy it the better. I go out of my way to make people who haven't a clue on trails to be very polite and encouraging. I want them to really enjoy the day and not be crapped on by the spandex crowd, that will most likely want to pass them fast, close and in an obnoxious fashion. I am trying to make up for them. Anyway, signs are the best way to educate. A sign saying here is the best way to ride on a trail. Blah, blah, blah. I hope the trend continues in our region and we have double the cyclists we have today in 5 years! Go newbies!
gg
2013-06-30 13:40:05
I don't recall anyone suggesting yelling at people or "educating with some sort of force". lol
sarah_q
2013-06-30 13:50:49
sarah_q wrote:I don’t recall anyone suggesting yelling at people or “educating with some sort of force”. lol
That may be, but I see and hear it. Just saying. Maybe not YOU, but it is out there and my voice about it needs to be heard, IMHO. I want to promote cycling to all. You stated, "trail conditions are starting to scare me". That has me concerned you are ready to blow up on some poor newbie.
gg
2013-06-30 14:07:30
When I realized that I would be on the trails yesterday at 10am I was like fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu. Near the bike rental is the worst. There are lots of kids that don't know any better, but there are adults that should. Who just turns around in the middle of the trail without warning or looking behind them? Some people do. People who aren't thinking. It is dangerous and aggravating. I think that on straight stretches on the jail trail, a speed limit is not necessary. I do tend to go fast-ish on this trail. But for windy parts of the south side trail and in front of pnc park it would make more sense because there are more pedestrians. People need to be more aware that they just shouldn't walk 5 across on any trail though. That isn't sharing the trail with anyone, whether the people are walking faster or riding faster than they are going. Just my thoughts. I just assumed that everyone knew that as a common courtesy, staying to the right and not getting in the way is what you do.
stefb
2013-06-30 14:25:01
Certainly there's room for education and getting people to stay to the right. I think a centerline would help (as long as the paint isn't slippery), and I like that brown sign above which is straight to the point, although I feel like there are probably already some signs that say stuff like that. But, the speed limit is 15, and just like on the road no one is entitled to be able to do the speed limit without any obstructions. Sometimes I slow down to 3-4mph or even get off my bike and walk it if the conditions warrant, and I think everyone could be reminded of that - "experienced" cyclists might be the worst offenders in that regard. If you want to get somewhere fast, take the road.
salty
2013-06-30 14:47:51
If the speed limit on the jail trail is enforced before speed limits on the road I might actually quit riding bikes. (last night somebody was doing somewhere between 70-90 mph up golfcourse hill in Schenley)...
steevo
2013-06-30 15:05:26
I love seeing tons of people on the trails, it makes me happy. Just people out having fun. If I don't feel like dealing with it I ride on the road. I mostly ride on the road.
edmonds59
2013-06-30 15:13:29
Steevo, I agree. I could not believe how many people passed me yesterday going at least 80 mph and these same people have a VERY poor understanding of the concept of four feet. I would guess a speedlimit on trails would be enforced just like the leash law in Frick Park. But perhaps posting the speedlimit would remind people to slow down. I know several people who do the majority of their race training on the trails. !! Edmonds, personally I agree with you. But if there is a way to make the trail safer, I am all for it. When it comes to riding with my son, I prefer taking trails when possible.
sarah_q
2013-06-30 15:21:49
"I know several people who do the majority of their race training on the trails." Was your friend that went to the ER one of them? I'd advise caution around peds/dogs/kids/pretty much everybody now Until we can get four lane bike paths or separated bike/ped paths, those of us who are say, going to work, will have to deal with those who are just screwing around I eagerly await the cold, when the problem will solve itself Well, but then the trails will probably be all icy and it'll be another set of problems There's a time when it's not icy, but still too cold for most casual riders, and it'll be great
sgtjonson
2013-06-30 20:14:26
I tend to ride somewhat on the fast side on the trail but will slow down and wait as long as necessary for a good passing opportunity. Not out to scare anyone. That's really all it takes, a little consideration. Maybe a dashed center line is a good idea just because the most common inconsiderate behavior I see are pedestrians stacked 2, 3 or even 4 abreast and/or not remotely keeping to the right. Even if they take up only half the trail instead, if there are any gaps in the opposing direction at least you've got SOMETHING. But in terms of speed limits, do we have crash reports and angry joggers or something or is this just mentally projecting forward from it being busy? I'm a father of small kids I take out to the trail, and I would be decidedly angry if someone decided to pass my daughter with insufficient clearance at any speed. I'd be apoplectic if they were going 20+. But I've never seen that. I've seen people slow way the heck down, give my daughters a very wide passing zone, and then pound back up to speed once past. I'm self conscious for the fact that they don't track all that straight yet, but I've never felt like I had to fear for them. I'm decidedly not in favor making unnecessary rules hoping for a lack of enforcement.
byogman
2013-06-30 20:20:28
Pierce wrote:Until we can get four lane bike paths or separated bike/ped paths, those of us who are say, going to work, will have to deal with those who are just screwing around
It's not going to work. We know this fro m bike lanes on Liberty, East Liberty, etc I started to pay a lot of attention if I go along those bike lanes either during early morning or late evening due to a lot of runners taking them.
mikhail
2013-06-30 20:22:22
Was your friend that went to the ER one of them?
He was just out for a chill ride that day. Oh, and I am not hoping for lack of enforcement. I am just realistically anticipating a lack of enforcement. I watch cars roll the 5-way stop in front of my house *all day*. I have lost all hope. Perhaps trail use info would be helpful for trail users. That's my thought.
sarah_q
2013-06-30 20:36:53
sarah_q wrote: Oh, and I am not hoping for lack of enforcement. I am just realistically anticipating a lack of enforcement.
That is indeed the most likely outcome, but I think you still loose by making rules that are not necessary (that I've seen), in that all of a sudden you don't have the speeding argument against cars when they're yacking about law breaking cyclists. Honestly, I'm annoyed enough by the one existing 15mph sign I remember seeing on the trail segment headed toward the bald eagle's nest. Unless there's demonstrable harm from cyclists going faster, can we take it down? I almost never go 15mph on the trail... only if I'm sick or trying to minimize sweat. And if I'm feeling punchy and want to CAT6 the train for a minute and I have the trail ahead of me with nobody to pass to do it, why the heck not? You just ride much slower when there are folks around. Not hard.
byogman
2013-06-30 21:05:11
I have seen any number of cat 6 racers get annoyed when their pace gets interrupted by a family or someone just out for a nice day, idiots. That just leaves a bad impression on everyone. No one should be "training" on these trails, unless maybe they're getting their ass up and out at 6 am, when it might make some sense. That behaviour isn't any different from impatient car drivers who make it miserable for everyone else. You need to go faster on a bike than 15 mph? Sorry, get out on a road.
edmonds59
2013-06-30 21:38:20
there are different yet reasonable perspectives, but personally (and it's just my opinion) I'm inclined to like a posted 15mph speed limit on the trails. And I don't know that it constrains me, either. (Cue the catholic-guilt-rule-breaking-rationalization-music, please) When I want to go fast at sunrise and I have the place to myself, I'm going. If there's any walkers or other riders around, I'm doing slow enough to stop if they surprise me and way less than 15. The trail is not for racing or making great time. But what I love about the posting of a 15mph speed limit is: it's the presence of civilization and the communication of the standard, even though nobody will ever enforce it. Once, only once, I saw an outlier** in a skinsuit and an aerohelmet going back and forth, multiple passes, on a crowded jail trail doing his best attempt at Warp2. He'd get right up behind people and shout, Boring! Boring! Boring! until he could pass. (** outlier is the new way I pronounce asshole) Having a posted 15mph speed limit provides a basis for knowing that behavior is wrong. Otherwise it's do whatever you want because there are no rules. Generally, I'm the libertarian, "signs are just the Man trying to keep me down" kind of guy. In this case, I think there's value in communicating the norm - because otherwise, nobody knows. If you want to ride 25 and you don't want to ride on the road, there's always the Wash. Blvd oval, have fun.
vannever
2013-06-30 22:20:46
Yeah, I don't want or expect anyone to enforce the speed limit on the trails, it should be a matter of common sense. Ideally there wouldn't need to be a posted limit, but not sometimes common sense needs a little nudge. The same applies to road laws and pretty much any other laws as far as I'm concerned. In my kingdom, I'd only have one rule - don't be an asshole. Punishable by death, of course.
salty
2013-06-30 23:14:59
Why do we stick to 15 mph? Why it's not 5, 10, or 25? What is a rationale behind 15?
mikhail
2013-06-30 23:45:33
On Thursday I saw a man running backwards on EFT waving all over trail and looking where he was going every 5-10 seconds. It was... hm... an interesting experience.
mikhail
2013-06-30 23:48:10
Sure, someone could do studies of bike speeds vs injury/death risk, and then we could debate what's an appropriate level of risk ad nauseum, and... Of course the truth is it depends on conditions. Sometimes 5 is the reasonable speed to go. Sometimes less. If there's really no one else on the trail, then 25 might be reasonable, but you'd be hard pressed to argue that is a reasonable speed while in the proximity of other people. People walking on the trail have as much right to be there as cyclists, and they deserve not to be menaced by cyclists who think they're "in the way". Hopefully the irony of the situation is not lost on anyone. It all goes back to my one rule...
salty
2013-07-01 00:09:33
@Mikhail "We know this fro m bike lanes on Liberty, East Liberty, etc" In those cases, there is no separated ped lane. The sidewalk doesn't count because it's made from concrete, not asphalt like the bike lane, and so runners go on the road because it's better for their feet. If the pedestrian trail was made of the same material as the bike trail, there should be less of that. "and I have the trail ahead of me with nobody to pass to do it, why the heck not?" Depending on the time of day, if you're on the SS trail you could accidentally run over a rabbit, which besides hurting the rabbit, could wipe yourself out as well "Perhaps trail use info would be helpful for trail users." Agreed. Just put an informative sign at trail entrances, that's probably the best we can hope for. Pathletes are going to be pathletes, and roller skaters are going to have an annoyingly wide gate I think there's going to be some crashes on the sandcastle leg of the trial because it's pretty narrow in some points, just enough space for two bikes
sgtjonson
2013-07-01 00:17:13
salty wrote:that is a reasonable speed while in the proximity of other people
Hm, I thought that speed limit and how fast you should go are two different things. So question still stands -- how do we arrive to 15 mph speed limit?
mikhail
2013-07-01 00:49:12
FWIW, 15 mph is the speed limit on the GAP, presumably including the Jail Trail portion. ETA: Same on the Montour Trail.
steven
2013-07-01 01:09:14
I am with salty. The don't be an asshole rule should apply to everyone. I don't mind slowing down and passing slower people.. Or not slowing down and giving slower people lots of room, but the slower people need to be aware of others as well. Going 15 mph is still gonna hurt all parties involved if someone pulls a uturn right in the middle of the trail.
stefb
2013-07-01 04:01:23
I guess technically the limit is already there. I plan on breaking it as close to continuously as is possible without breaking Salty's rule. Yes, I do use the trail to make time. It's flat, it's smooth, and I don't have to stop. Seems pretty darn well suited for making time! Now, I will say, if it doesn't matter WHERE you're going, you're just putting in miles, it makes more sense to think of it more like an either or. But going from the presence of one or two douchebags and an immediate jump toward more intrusive rule oriented thinking. Man... that's sad. Again, hasn't been a problem when I brought my 4 and 8 year old daughters out there. I think I'm a reasonably protective dad. I find it really odd to see so much pro sentiment for the limit here. Seems to me that limits don't inform anything unless they're enforced (I mean really, do they do anything on the roads?), and I don't think anyone has come forward yet to say that they believe such enforcement would be a worthy use of police resources. Does anyone actually believe that??
byogman
2013-07-01 04:05:32
@Pierce: "pathletes" <-- lol I had no idea there was a speedlimit already. Of all of the suggestions I offered in my OP this has most people worked up. Like the 25 mph speedlimit on my street when I am driving, if it's 5:30 a.m. and I can clearly see a long way in front of me I go faster. The last thing I am worried about is a ticket! I would probably do the same on the trail. What about painting the center line? A sign that says keep right except to pass? Are any of these things even plausible to hope for? Signs and paint cost $.
sarah_q
2013-07-01 04:18:29
Salty, I really like your Rule:
vannever
2013-07-01 05:37:14
byogman wrote:But going from the presence of one or two douchebags and an immediate jump toward more intrusive rule oriented thinking. Man… that’s sad.
^I'm with that. A lot of wisdom on this thread. I love the don't be an a-hole rule, but I think history shows that is doomed to failure. Kind of like the "Share the Road" signs, the jerks will always interpret it as "Assholes Rule, brah!"
edmonds59
2013-07-01 06:13:49
sarah_q wrote:What about painting the center line? A sign that says keep right except to pass? Are any of these things even plausible to hope for? Signs and paint cost $.
I think that if a center line was painted, a lot of people would automatically just assume to stay right as if it was a traffic lane on the road. Throw a few arrows on the trail every now and then to indicate the flow of traffic in each lane and you'll be set. I think this would be especially helpful on the narrow sandcastle / keystone metals section, but I wouldn't mind a center line on pretty much all of the shared use trails (and the ft duquesne bridge ramp). However, There is no hope for wrangling people near the stadiums though... I'll just detour to the road during busy times over there. I think having a basic rules sign at the trail-heads would be helpful, and educational for new trail users. When it comes to the rules, fewer is better, simple is better. The basic trail rules sign posted earlier is probably fine, but could be a bit simpler. Would definitely like it posted consistently, and always appear the same, so people remember what they saw. I think having the speed limit posted is enough, there are not enough resources to bother trying to enforce it. I never have any damn idea what speed I'm going since 99% of the time I have no cycling computer and generally don't care. I try to pass pedestrians either with a very wide berth (4 feet is a good rule) or I slow down to close to walking speed if I need to pass closer.
benzo
2013-07-01 06:46:30
stefb wrote:I am with salty. The don’t be an asshole rule should apply to everyone. I don’t mind slowing down and passing slower people.. Or not slowing down and giving slower people lots of room, but the slower people need to be aware of others as well. Going 15 mph is still gonna hurt all parties involved if someone pulls a uturn right in the middle of the trail.
I with salty on this one too. And can crawl if I need too. Especially around kids. Saying hello to kids is a very interesting since it almost always puts a smile on their faces. :) 15 mph is a pretty fast. And you are right that it's going to hurt everyone involved. And I am trying understand why 15.
mikhail
2013-07-01 06:48:40
One thing that is kind of cool about this thread. We wouldn't have even had one like it just a short time ago. That in itself is progress. Thanks to all that are helping make the city better for those not in a motor vehicle.
gg
2013-07-01 06:57:38
This is all common sense and common courtesy. Which seems to be the emerging consensus of this thread. Thi is Salty's rule put, shall we say, in a more polite and proper way for general public consumption. (Cue little old ladies to enter trail stage left. @gg -- Yep. I was thinking the same thing. In it's own way it's a nice problem to suddenly have, isn't it? @Mikhail -- I suspect 15 mph is an arbitrary choice based on common sense experience to balance competing choices -- safety vs. different speeds of mixed traffic flow. There probably isn't any demonstrable thing to show it like a traffic study or the like. I know that's going to drive the engineer/hard sicence/mathematician guy in you nuts, but that's probably how it is. I'll normally cruise an asphalt-surfaced trail like the Jail Trail at 14-16 mph. Maybe a little faster depending upon conditions. But when it's crowded, I know I can't. It doesn't feel safe. Because it isn't safe. There is less likely enough time or space for the reaction time and to make a defensive move safely if something happens in front of you. It's part of your own personal traffic control planning when you put your bike on the trail to ride it. I suspect it's that personal experience extrapolated out by assuming everyone else has the same personal calcuus/planning experience, and turning it into a general rule based upon that assumed general experience. My $.02, anyway.
cdavey
2013-07-01 07:34:39
15mph is maybe enough to disinvite the Cat-6'ers but still speedy enough for the majority of riders. (And, 15mph is close to 25kph so maybe it's a good universal.) At the onset the trail next to the Sandcastle, at the narrow part had a centerline lightly sketched in, but it eventually disappeared. I would tend to agree with the previous post(s) suggesting that arrows are a better way of signaling lanes. btw, if you're going to "train" why not do it on Beaver or River? They're much better for speed riding. Not to mention the Circle.
ahlir
2013-07-01 08:25:59
edmonds59 wrote: I love the don’t be an a-hole rule, but I think history shows that is doomed to failure.
Agreed, but replace the "don't be an a-hole rule" with "speed limits" and I agree even more. So, wait. Hmmn. Now, I can see the point of some signage on stuff that does make a more intrinsic difference to how much the flow on the trail is unpredictable and has the potential for danger. Stuff like keeping right, no weaving around, no sudden stops from high speed, 4 foot passing. What I actually like the most is putting Salty's rule on a sign. It sounds silly, but because of that would actually stand out and be memorable at least. Maybe use that as a headliner for the more specific stuff above.
byogman
2013-07-01 08:30:31
Ahlir wrote:15mph is maybe enough to disinvite the Cat-6?ers but still speedy enough for the majority of riders
Maybe and maybe, I guess I'm not sure if I count as a Cat-6'er or not. I don't like 15 as a limit and would be hard to get rid of. Have I done something to someone, put anyone at any kind of risk, been rude? No, no, and no. Also, supposing someone has a long way to go. Let's say they live in McKeesport and work downtown. There's a guy I know who has done this, but it's a bit too time consuming to do regularly. Would you say tough luck, 15mph, for someone who has to go on the trail 15 miles? (yes, I'm aware there are other routes, but they stink comparatively). If I had that commute, I'd probably be a bit more stubborn about riding, shift it to much emptier times on the trail so I'd have plenty of room to give the fewer people I had to pass, but you'd better believe I'd hightail it, very possibly on a lowracer or fared recumbent. So, riding one of those, I'd be going somewhat faster than a typical Cat-6er. Would that make me a bad actor? Should I get the GAP's first speeding ticket? Do I at least get the 9 you're fine 10 you're mine fudge a motorist does?
byogman
2013-07-01 08:53:52
It would be totally cool if it turned out we could self-regulate in response to the increased traffic. Threads like this are a step in the right direction. Let's be kind, considerate, slow, and safe around other trail users.
jonawebb
2013-07-01 09:01:36
When kids are little we teach them all the basics of how not to be assholes, sharing, being polite, helping others, yadayada, but then we gradually teach them that that is really communism and socialism, so that by the time they are 18 they are able to go to other countries and kill people. :)
edmonds59
2013-07-01 09:05:20
The only speed limit that's strictly enforced
marko82
2013-07-01 09:05:56
I have very few personal cycling rules, but for the past 8 years Rule #1 has been: Don't ride the trails on the weekend. Rule #2 is: Take the street as often as possible on the weekend. These rules exclude days that include precipitation or temperatures below 60°. These rules won't work for everyone, but I can only imagine what the trails are like nowadays... and I think I'd rather leave it to my imagination. My two cents though: Simple signage dictating the "rules of the trail" are generally effective and I think having a dividing line would help remind trail navigators to keep to the right and/or be aware of others passing.
lizzimac
2013-07-01 09:09:08
Marko82 wrote:The only speed limit that’s strictly enforced
Boy I wish I had more than the abstract on this paper showing (kinda sorta) faster than light travel. Mikhail, know anything about this one beyond what's in the abstract?
byogman
2013-07-01 09:18:13
@byogman -- If you got a speeding ticket, you would be my hero -- at least a minor one. For some reason I have always had a pervese desire to get a speeding ticket on a bike. I think it would be hysterically funny and ironic, in a perverse way. It would be worth it just for bragging rights, even it cost me bunch of money. @edmonds59 -- HORRORS!! And here I thought it was simply becuase common experience had proven that the world just works better for us individually when we are polite, help each other, and can trust one another's word, instead of all of us being sociopaths. What am I to do??!! It sounds like I am a candidate to be taken a re-education camp where such dangerous ideas can be brainwashed out of me. @lizziemac -- like I said earlier, this is all common sense experience. Your post is a pretty good example of that. In short, if you find you don't want to ride the trails with a lot of traffic on them, then simply don't and try something else to solve the problem.
cdavey
2013-07-01 09:18:49
Marko82 wrote:The only speed limit that’s strictly enforced
Ha-ha, +1. But it's in vacuum only. It could be different in different environments.
mikhail
2013-07-01 09:46:59
byogman wrote:Mikhail, know anything about this one beyond what’s in the abstract?
Well, it's about group velocity. And "light speed limit" is about "energy expanding". If you take guillotine and make angle between two blades small enough then point of blade crossing can move much faster than speed of light. But in this case energy is directed to the point at every point during point movement "locally". And it's not a material point.
mikhail
2013-07-01 09:55:01
cdavey wrote:I have always had a pervese desire to get a speeding ticket on a bike
Friend of mine living in Germany got one. :) He was extremely pissed of and even quit biking for a month.
mikhail
2013-07-01 09:57:47
edmonds59 wrote:train
Who are you to say what people should and should not be doing on the trails? I train on the jail trail. Generally mornings or mid afternoons. I routinely go 30+ mph. The jail trail is literally the only semi flat, semi straight 3+ minute car free area in the entire city. This all comes down to common sense and decency. I have never had an accident with anybody. If people are there, you slow down. Dont go fast on the weekends. Plan your efforts around trail traffic. Its not that hard. Everybody here is over thinking and trying to take on some authoritative role. If somebody going 16 on a bike is bothersome to you, you should probably figure out why.
steevo
2013-07-01 10:38:40
salty wrote:In my kingdom, I’d only have one rule – don’t be an asshole. Punishable by death, of course.
(shrug) We're all assholes and we're all gonna die. Just fact. Sorry. When I first started riding the gap, it seemed like every mile there would be some guy riding next to his preschooler. He was in the left lane and HE WASN'T GONNA MOVE away from his kid. Too bad if you have to stop to let him pass. I haven't seen that as much recently.
mick
2013-07-01 10:42:28
Mikhail wrote:
cdavey wrote:I have always had a pervese desire to get a speeding ticket on a bike
Friend of mine living in Germany got one. :) He was extremely pissed of and even quit biking for a month.
I relate to cdavey's perverse sense of humor. But it's only cool if you get a ticket going FAST. Breaking a 30kph or (shudder) 25kph limit somewhere in Europe? Not so cool. cdavey, if you want to go for it, here's absolutely adorable 25 limit. After the stop just ahead it gets pretty steep, and it's very smooth with good lines of sight for a goodly drop. On road bike drops pushing a big ring (at the start, I think you'd ultimately spin out anything here) I don't even want to speculate how fast you'd go.
Mick wrote:
salty wrote:In my kingdom, I’d only have one rule – don’t be an asshole. Punishable by death, of course.
(shrug) We’re all assholes and we’re all gonna die.
And here's a fun way to prove it! In all seriousness, best to stop the all out speed fest and drop it back pretty significantly just before the bottom Perrysville Avenue intersection. Not that you couldn't carry it and it wouldn't be fun, but the idea of that kind of speed transitioning back over to old iffy concrete, a little more steep downhill, and a bit of turning... not my comfort zone anyway.
byogman
2013-07-01 11:50:17
Oh sorry, here.
byogman
2013-07-01 11:53:20
Steevo - I'm not advocating anything authoritative, in fact, I am against any such thing. You seem to have the common sense and decency to be able to do what you do without negatively impacting anyone else's day, but you are probably the exception rather than the rule. Buuuut - weren't you just commenting on someone going (in a car, I presume) 70 or 80 mph up through the golf course? 20 years ago I used to regularly take motorcycles through Schenley at 60+ mph. I could use every word of your statement above to justify what I was doing then; it was the only road around without driveways, I was in complete control at all times, I never hurt myself or anybody, it was awesome for my bike handling skills. Doesn't mean it was right, or smart. Just try and appreciate the experience of someone who is just out for a toodle on the trail, or maybe has kids, and gets blown by by some lycra rocket going 30 mph. That shit is terrifying. Common sense and decency are great, empathy is another good thing.
edmonds59
2013-07-01 12:11:46
Also, byogman, that Perrysville/Federal St downhill is awesome! I just did that yesterday and was hooting and loving it all the way. If I rode it often enough to know the road I would be ripping that thing.
edmonds59
2013-07-01 12:17:37
steevo wrote:I train on the jail trail. Generally mornings or mid afternoons. I routinely go 30+ mph.
I think I have seen you. I yelled, "on your left" as I passed you by. :)
gg
2013-07-01 12:20:50
I support the center line idea - regardless of speed or mode of transport, the most annoying thing is when people are taking up the whole width of the path and you can't pass them because they aren't paying attention. But I think that for most people, they're not doing it because they're assholes, but because they just aren't thinking about it at all. Having lanes would be a simple reminder to everyone that the trails are multi-use and multi-directional.
willb
2013-07-01 12:53:00
The argument structure is parallel between the high speed motorcycle riding on schenley drive and high speed bike riding on the jail tail, but the weighting factors are pretty grossly different, so I'm much more inclined to go with the... "I'm responsible, yeesh, lay off buddy" approach for non motorized travel. I unfortunately was here probably 4 or 5 minutes after the fact http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2013/04/30/motorcyclist-crashes-into-tree-at-schenley-park/. You're in control until you're not. It's best if and when that happens if it's not curtains. The only thing I'll say to the non-motorized speedster is that there can be a big difference between what feels safe through the eyes of the passer vs. what feels safe through the eyes of the person being passed. Essentially, the person being passed needs more space as relative velocity increases to feel safe whereas the person doing the passing is typically not nearly as sensitive to it. So, pass respectfully at low relative velocity, try to pass really wide if you do so at higher relative velocity. Even if it's not really necessary, it just makes for a calmer atmosphere.
byogman
2013-07-01 13:25:29
Some good suggestions here e.g. A line that demarcates where one should be positioned on the trail. Has anyone sent these suggestions to Friends of the Riverfront?
scott
2013-07-01 13:27:09
By Station Square there are often folks wandering around who seem surprised to find they're standing on a trail when a bike comes through. Painted lanes could help make them less surprised, and perhaps pick a different place to stand and talk.
steven
2013-07-01 13:36:06
I don't think i have ever hit 30mph on the jail trail. I may have held 24mph once on my big block briefly. I don't even think I have hit 30 on my road bike. I think if someone can go 30 on the flats, there should be no arguing, because that person is a freak (I mean that in a good way).
stefb
2013-07-01 13:52:14
I tried to break the speed limit on the flat on Neville Island yesterday (25 mph) but could only briefly get to like 24.5. So depressing. I suck.
edmonds59
2013-07-01 14:01:22
scott wrote:Has anyone sent these suggestions to Friends of the Riverfront?
Are they the ones responsible for such things? I would have thought it was the city. Anyway, given the apparent success of the StageAE email campaign, maybe we could have some impact on this issue.
willb
2013-07-01 14:11:39
@Scott, Do you know the best person to contact @ FotRF? NYC has rules for the greenway that don't specify a speed limit, simply stating "Excessive speeds are dangerous. Slow down!" http://www.nycgovparks.org/facility/bicycling-and-greenways/rules Kind of surprising for a city that tried to put a limit on soda. :)
sarah_q
2013-07-01 14:17:24
byogman wrote:I relate to cdavey’s perverse sense of humor. But it’s only cool if you get a ticket going FAST. Breaking a 30kph or (shudder) 25kph limit somewhere in Europe? Not so cool.
He was going above speed limit on a dedicated bike lane. And bicyclists are not allowed on the road if there is a dedicated bike lane. Speed limit was less than 15 mph.
mikhail
2013-07-01 14:18:08
Helmets: rare water bottles: no place to refill, many folks cycle without hydrating kids under control: classic: helmet on back of head from two years ago, flip flops and enjoying the right to weave all over the place dogs?? leashes? only a $300 fine (if they catch you) headphones: everybody wears them, nobody can hear my bell doggie dumpsters: don't tread on poop! don't get poop on tread! I dream about interval stops for clean water and interval distribution and pick-up your dog's poop oases (not in the same place)
furchtbar
2013-07-01 17:23:06
@furchbar: it's not all that bad. The EFT has water fountains at either end, though the SST doesn't seem to have any. There's water at the Pump House just beyond the Waterfront. And there's one (1) fountain on the Point... Actually that kind of sucks. But we live in a culture that mindlessly privatizes everything, so what did you expect? It appears that the market, in it's omniscient wisdom, has chosen not to dot the trails with vendors of water; surely you should conclude that it's your responsibility to get water and that you don't have the right to complain. But do complain, something might happen (also, vote wisely). The SST (and the Waterfront stretch of the SVT) is adjacent to residential areas; you should expect dog walkers, families, "old" people and whatnot. If you don't care to deal with that mess of humanity you do have choices. EFT is ok at the right times of day (6am Sundays is pretty good). The ORT is comparatively empty once you get past the casino (think of the gate posts as part of training). I can't quite recall encounters with dog poop on trails at this moment, but maybe that's because I generally make a point to steer around random lumps of matter. If you want to do intervals and stuff I would suggest that you consider the SVT between the Rankin Bridge ramp and McKeesport. That's over 6 miles of low traffic trail with only a few complications (a blind curve, a couple of bridges). By comparison, the EFT has only 2.6mi between the bike rental and the far parking lot; New Beaver between Alcosan and the lights just before the casino is 1.8 mi; River (including the 31STB) gets you 2.2 mi. I will readily concede that I'm a duffer who is ignorant of proper training routine, but surely the are enough options around that everyone doesn't have to pile into the same spaces.
ahlir
2013-07-01 18:46:06
Ahlir wrote:@furchbar: it’s not all that bad. COULD BE BETTER, BUT YES, NOT THAT BAD The EFT has water fountains at either end, though the SST doesn’t seem to have any. There’s water at the Pump House just beyond the Waterfront. And there’s one (1) fountain on the Point… Actually that kind of sucks. But we live in a culture that mindlessly privatizes everything, so what did you expect? It appears that the market, in it’s omniscient wisdom, has chosen not to dot the trails with vendors of water; surely you should conclude that it’s your responsibility to get water and that you don’t have the right to complain. But do complain, something might happen (also, vote wisely). The SST (and the Waterfront stretch of the SVT) is adjacent to residential areas; you should expect dog walkers, families, “old” people and whatnot. If you don’t care to deal with that mess of humanity you do have choices. EFT is ok at the right times of day (6am Sundays is pretty good). The ORT is comparatively empty once you get past the casino (think of the gate posts as part of training). I can’t quite recall encounters with dog poop on trails at this moment, but maybe that’s because I generally make a point to steer around random lumps of matter. If you want to do intervals and stuff I would suggest that you consider the SVT between the Rankin Bridge ramp and McKeesport. That’s over 6 miles of low traffic trail with only a few complications (a blind curve, a couple of bridges). By comparison, the EFT has only 2.6mi between the bike rental and the far parking lot; New Beaver between Alcosan and the lights just before the casino is 1.8 mi; River (including the 31STB) gets you 2.2 mi. I will readily concede that I’m a duffer who is ignorant of proper training routine, but surely the are enough options around that everyone doesn’t have to pile into the same spaces.
furchtbar
2013-07-01 19:18:42
there is a new fountain on the lower part of the S S trail below the new hotel (near REI) that has two good water fountains and a little dog-sized fountain too. :)
sarah_q
2013-07-01 19:26:04
i switch to riding the montour trail at 630 am for the summer months during the colder months i take my bike to work and ride from beaver avenue i wore out my brakes 2 years ago trying to ride the trail by the casino during warm weather on the weekends i go to my trailer by the ghost town trail its never crowded they dont have the population up that way but im not using my bike for transportation i wish i could but riding 65 at night would not be a good thing
bear250220
2013-07-01 20:56:22
if anything, we could always be the "victims" of some "random vandals" that painted a yellow line down the middle of the trail in the darkness covering of the night (or pre-dawn wilight). not that i would ever encourage such drastic behavior, but if a dotted yellow would give cause to those that would otherwise not realize that there is a bit of a right-of-way established and their "5 across" is less than 100% conductive to the traffic flow, then i would not exactly be reporting such acts of vandalism either. #justsayin. (i'll cover atleast one can of paint.)
pbeaver
2013-07-01 22:35:07
ha! I always appreciate the good graffiti along the trail. I emailed the people Scott suggested yesterday. Let's see if I get a reply. I know just painting arrows on the road for bike rides takes a surprising amount of paint.
sarah_q
2013-07-02 05:42:24
I went to the dentist yesterday and the receptionist, Dottie, said she had seen my picture in the newspaper about the McKees Rocks trail kickoff thing, then she excitedly told me how this spring she had gotten a used bike and started riding the Montour trail regularly (not a cause and effect BTW). Her face was just joyous, like a kid. It was quite lovely. I have heard the Montour gets ridiculously crowded with a mix of users, don't know, I never ride it. But on a crushed limestone trail, I guess you just have to settle for the occasional signage, since markings wouldn't work. And common sense.
edmonds59
2013-07-02 06:04:23
yes the montour trail is a busy trail on the weekends if possible go early in the am
bear250220
2013-07-02 08:30:37
Montour has been crowded during warm months for at least last 5-6 years. I am talking about miles 0-12 and Peters/Bethel Park townships branches. One thing I noticed that kids behave better when they are with older siblings (no adults are present) in compare when they are with parents. :) Everything is done by kids unconditionally when older siblings just call: "To the side!" Like a small army.
mikhail
2013-07-02 08:49:48
I am late to the thread, but I think we should all remember what we were like when we first started biking? I was all over the place, and not for lack of courtesy, but lack of skill, balance and ignorance. I was wobbly, lacked confidence and wasn't all that sure of the rules. I assumed things like staying right... but only because I am an excellent driver. ;) Making rules may make the trail just as intimidating as being on the road. Which for newbies is much safer for them. *There are adults out there who may just be learning how to ride* Silly, I know. I have a friend who had a couple bad experiences with experienced cyclists in the city and that turned him off almost completely to riding. He was just learning and got frustrated and a little embarrassed. That is the last thing we want to do. Same goes for walkers and joggers just trying to get some fresh air and exercise. At least they got out of the house that day. I'm happy for them for that. I think being cautious is not the job of the newbies or weekend warriors- it is on us. The majority of us who are out there every day need to be the ones setting the example. Frustrating as it may be, cycling is supposed to be fun. No matter how fast you're going/not going. My experience on the trails have been quite pleasant thus far. I think.
turboweasel
2013-07-02 08:57:51
Well, guess what? There already is a sign at the end of the jail trail. I have passed this approx 1 zillion times but just noticed it today. !!! There are also directional arrows painted in the first 0.25 mi of the trail. I still think center lane markings are a good idea.
sarah_q
2013-07-02 09:24:56
Good post J.Str., thx.
edmonds59
2013-07-02 10:34:17
A perfect example of how well signs work.
rsprake
2013-07-02 10:46:20
sarah_q wrote: I still think center lane markings are a good idea.
Something tells me the fella responsible for the "(A)" graffiti walked/rode on the wrong side.
rustyred
2013-07-02 12:21:54
I'm kind of with Steevo on this. I regularly ride on the Jail Trail and South Side trail at over 15mph. I commute at 8am most days from Oakland and often there are only 2-3 other trail users I come across (excluding those who walk from the parking lot at the jail but I've slowed by then) so going 15mph seems a little ridiculous. I even saw Sarah Q. this morning and said "hi" as I passed.
boostuv
2013-07-02 17:17:07
Yep, had a solid run on the trails this morning and most of the cyclists who passed me I knew -- I love the pgh cycling community. Plus I actually noticed that sign!! I heard back from the FoRF contact Scott recommended. He said, "You are right about the increased usage and need for lines and signage. We actually are working with a funder now to secure the resources for both of those items. We hope to know soon."
sarah_q
2013-07-02 18:31:06
This is probably a (terribly) wrong way to address this issue, but remember that drivers tend to ignore speed limits. In fact it seems to be socially acceptable to cruise at least maybe 5mph over the limit. I'm told that law enforcement won't pay attention to you if you're driving only that much over the limit. Life's like that. Why should life on the trails be any different? But the heck with the bikes; right now it's way more important to get the cars moving closer to their assigned speed limits. I can probably live with cars doing +5mph (especially if and when the city speed limits ever go down to 20mph) but it's scary when they're doing +20mph (like on the Homestead Greys). It feels like a waste of effort to worry about bike trail speeds when the real problem are car speeds on roads.
ahlir
2013-07-02 20:02:52
RE the rules placard at the east end of the EFT. I went by there today, looked for it and (finally) noticed it. I now know why I never saw it. It's really not placed that well, next to that historical marker thingie and the clean up you dog poop sign. It would have been much more noticeable a dozen metres down the trail, by itself. (As would the dog poop sign for that matter.) It's also too small to read if you're already in motion. On highways the signs are really big because people are moving fast but still have to be able to read them. The same should go for bike signs. The current sign seems to assume stationary readers (or people ambling along at dog-walker speeds). I'm pretty sure specs exist for readability at different speeds. (It's the kind of stuff those traffic engineer people do for a living.) Wouldn't that be the right way to do it? Oh, and I would recommend the 15mph lettering size.
ahlir
2013-07-02 20:16:48
I’m told that law enforcement won’t pay attention to you if you’re driving only that much over the limit. It's not just that they won't, by state law, they generally can't. Title 75 section 3368(c)4: No person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraphs (2) and (3) [RADAR and VASCAR] unless the speed recorded is six or more miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit. Furthermore, no person may be convicted upon evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (3) [VASCAR] in an area where the legal speed limit is less than 55 miles per hour if the speed recorded is less than ten miles per hour in excess of the legal speed limit. This paragraph shall not apply to evidence obtained through the use of devices authorized by paragraph (2) or (3) within a school zone or an active work zone.
steven
2013-07-03 03:05:06
How about just "stay right, pass left with caution" There's no need to post speed limits or waste money on painting lanes. If everyone stays to the right when there is nobody in front of them, there would not be many problems. Sometimes there's a walker in the dead center and I wish they would just be a little to the right. That's all. And sometimes....I get passed by a polite biker and wish I had thinner wheels and a faster bikeeeeeeeeee.
italianblend
2013-07-03 07:58:20
When I made this thread I was just wondering if there was something that we could do to make the trails safer and more user friendly. As a result, I learned there already is a speed limit and a sign! Who knew? Also I found out that many cyclists (like drivers) don't like the idea of speed limits. I am guilty of hauling ass down the jail trail. I am certainly not casting stones. Center line markings make a huge difference from what I have seen on the Greenway in NYC. I think it's cool that FotRF are already looking into this. As a nonprofit I assume their funding is from grants/ donations.
sarah_q
2013-07-03 08:17:27
I wonder if most cyclists don't have a speedometer and just go fast and not realize their speed. When I go on the trails, it's usually for a workout and I am safe but I do like to pretend I'm in the breakaway trying to escape Peter Sagan and his cronies in green. I would love if NBC sports would make a cycling app in which they give you commentary while you are riding!
italianblend
2013-07-03 08:51:26
Ahlir wrote:I’m pretty sure specs exist for readability at different speeds. (It’s the kind of stuff those traffic engineer people do for a living.) Wouldn’t that be the right way to do it? Oh, and I would recommend the 15mph lettering size.
If you're trying to get a limit sign to read and theoretically have an effect, you'd need the lettering big enough to be readable by those riding the very fastest. So apparently, that's 30mph plus. You probably would do best just to use the same signs as an roadways for cars. To, ahem, do nothing (I'm opposed to the limit for reasons well hashed out earlier) but at least do nothing with high visibility!
byogman
2013-07-03 09:31:37
sarah_q wrote:Center line markings make a huge difference from what I have seen on the Greenway in NYC.
They are making huge difference in the separate bike lanes on the River Front (the one that start near Pump House).
mikhail
2013-07-03 09:43:05
I think we've established that the sign at the eastern end of EFT is just about purpose-less. Merely moving it to a few feet toward the city would go a long way to making it visible. Nobody is going to blow past it at 20 mph just a few yards from the lot. Just that it's positioned right now so that nobody is likely to see it unless looking for it. I'm also for the "Burma Shave" philosophy of posting signs. Small in size, tiny in information delivery, a regular series that causes you to look for the next one once you've processed the first one. Like this sequence: A guy who drives .. .. .. A car wide open .. .. .. Is not thinkin' .. .. .. He's just hopin' .. .. .. Burma-Shave
stuinmccandless
2013-07-03 12:08:52
After riding the river trails yesterday, I think I'm all but convinced the road is a safer option for bikes. The short few miles heading upriver along the North Shore trail felt far more dangerous than the 20+ miles of road riding through the North Hills. My friend (who was riding in front of me) and I were travelling at a reasonably safe speed along the North Shore, but almost plowed into a group of teens who didn't look before stepping into our path. At least cars are mildly more predictable in their actions. Sure, there is always the driver that is either ignorant, combatant, or simply irresponsible... But 99 times out of 100 I can make myself visible to cars on the road. Pedestrians however, just simply aren't used to having to look around in public spaces. I imagine a painted center line would do wonders for the Jail trail, as well as parts of the South Side trail. But the North Shore trail may be a lost cause through the stadium sections. Too many folks preoccupied with the joy of skyscrapers and waterfowl to consider how unpredictably they are walking. Maybe a full-fledged bike lane through those sections is whats needed. But if thats the answer, it might just make more sense to stay on the road. Which reminds me – its time to re-up my BikePgh membership. Thanks for improving road conditions, and it might be time to kick some of my money over to Friends of the Riverfront as well.
michaelartman
2013-07-03 12:59:37
Sounds like you're all prepped for reading "Effective Cycling"... (ducks)
salty
2013-07-03 18:56:13
Stu, something like this? From the Baltimore-Annapolis trail.
vannever
2013-07-03 19:09:03
It's silly to think of the North Shore as a bike trail. It's not. It's for pedestrians, loafers and for families bicycling with young children. Anything else (like huff'n puff biking) simply has the wrong rhythm and ends up lessening the enjoyment of the scene for others. If you're going faster than 5-6 mph you probably don't belong. Fortunately, cycling that stretch works just fine by street (N Shore Dr -- Mazeroski -- Gen Robinson -- River). Though it would help if the whole thing was sharrowed properly,
ahlir
2013-07-03 19:31:16
from the casino to western pen its not to bad but if you go past the casino its tough going unless its like 6am
bear250220
2013-07-03 20:42:27
I commute on the North Shore Trail daily between the Casino and 9th St Bridge. On days with baseball games, fireworks, regattas, or country music concerts, I take the road. The speed limits are low and the lights are timed to keep things fairly sane. Sometimes I find myself wishing for winter or a downpour, so I can get "my" trail back :)
pinky
2013-07-04 06:45:59
@Vannevar - Yes, precisely. If they put them on hinges, they'd make a nice hurdle track. Or however you set up hurdles. (You can tell how much track & field I've done.)
stuinmccandless
2013-07-04 08:33:40
Love the Burma Shave concept.
edmonds59
2013-07-04 09:57:51
I encountered a salmon pedestrian on a semi-regular basis on the Chateau section of the North Shore trail in the morning and it seems he's doing it deliberately to intimidate me or to get me to crash. Guy: short, thin, sleeved arms. His girlfriend has multicolored hair. I'm generally able to ride around him and avoid a confrontation, but one day last week I couldn't (trail narrowed) and I simply had to stop/yield. If I didn't have a set of handlebars in his way he'd have bashed a shoulder into me. I now avoid that area of the trail in the morning because of him.
rustyred
2013-07-18 15:54:13