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motor vehicles on trails

I saw this guy, Thursday at 8pm, cruising along without pedaling at about 15mph on the Eliza Furnace Trail from Grant St to the Hot Metal Bridge on a motorcycle with pedals (or bicycle with gasoline engine). His exhaust was stinking up the trail for the rest of us. I pedaled fast, caught up to him, and asked him "Did you know that motorcycles aren't allowed on this trail?" He acted surprised, stopped, and perhaps turned around. I hope he learned his lesson.
paulheckbert
2013-06-14 07:20:03
Stinking it up worse than 376 running next to it? Would it have been ok if it was electric? Or if he was pedaling and not using the engine? I'm torn about how I feel. I've seen human power going faster than 15mph, so it didn't sound like he was recklessly careening around people and bikes at excessive speed. I probably would shrug and ride on in that situation.
sew
2013-06-14 07:25:09
People should know they aren't supposed to be using the trails with motorbikes, moped, etc. I think Paul did the right thing. It sounds like the guy just didn't know.
jonawebb
2013-06-14 07:45:26
I've seen quite a few of these lately. Personally, I don’t I like them, but I don’t think they are going to cause the world to implode either. My main hang-up is that a bicycle with an engine going 20mph has to be way more dangerous than driving a small scooter at 20mph due to tire & brake size, etc. So I wish the people driving these things would just go out and buy a small 50cc scooter that would handle better and be safer. As for riding these things on dedicated bike/pedestrian trails; as long as they do so in a safe way (i.e. the speed of the rest of the trail users), I guess I wouldn’t get too worked up about it.
marko82
2013-06-14 07:47:50
So where do electric bikes fit into this equation? They can certainly go as fast.
helen-s
2013-06-14 07:55:40
In an odd way, it reminds me of what I've said to some wood be cyclists... "I understand that you ride on the sidewalk because you're probably uncomfortable on the street, but you need to realize that you are more visible and predictable riding on the actual road... and it's safer for pedestrians." "You should be riding with traffic, not against it." It seems like an innocent mistake made by not connecting the dots. I wouldn't want to smell burning gas from a small engine either. Electric would be better in this scenario... but the second a path gets clogged up with electric vehicles that don't want to use the proper roads that opinion won't hold up. He could be taking the "scenic route" but odds are it's a dis-comfort riding on the road thing. If I'm wrong, then nevermind... but if I'm correct, then he is just one more potential ally for better infrastructure and we should be careful not to alienate such a person while still making a point that it doesn't belong on the trail.
headloss
2013-06-14 08:06:48
I don't like the idea of any cycle with a motor on the trails. I can't stand those two stroke motors that do indeed stink and are not even available for lawn mowers because they pollute so much. Hope that doesn't become some trend.
gg
2013-06-14 08:13:02
I don't have a problem with electric bikes on trails. Not so noisy, etc. But most of the people using them should just HTFU.
jonawebb
2013-06-14 08:20:03
According to http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/local/breaking/trail-officials-approve-rules-for-handicapped-access-287099/ the rules for most of the GAP trail say that for handicapped people, "in addition to continuing to allow wheelchairs, the new rules permit electric bikes powered by no more than 250 watts, weighing less than 100 pounds, less than 36 inches wide with pedals that can be manually operated. Those types of bikes generally are rated at a top speed of 15 mph, which is the limit on the trail. Motorized vehicles with internal combustion engines or without manual pedaling capability will continue to be banned." His gasoline engine was indeed stinking up the trail worse than the adjacent freeway.
paulheckbert
2013-06-14 08:37:14
"Motorcycle" in pa is above 50cc... this dude is not that. I think that if they allow battery operated bikes on trails and roads, we could get A LOT more bike commuters from Greenfield and SQ hill who dont commute now simply because they cant handle the hill at the end of the jailtrail. Complaining about pollution during rush hour on the jail trail is futile. Could you discern the difference between his engine and the 1000's of other cars idling 5 feet over? I cut down through panther hollow on my 150 scooter. I go about 6 mph in 1st gear. If this makes me a shitty person so be it. Being on a vehicle like this is a lot better for the world and cycling than somebody rolling solo in a car.
steevo
2013-06-17 07:58:26
Two stroke engines do dump a bunch of gas into the air. I can easily imagine one of them being smellier than a lot of cars some distance away with four stroke engines and catalytic converters.
jonawebb
2013-06-17 08:17:06
Coming up Greenfield Ave can also be a bit intimidating because the uphill lane is fairly narrow and has no shoulder. I just take the sidewalk uphill since I am only going a few mph anyway. (For this, it's actually nice that Swinburne St Bridge is closed since I don't have to stop for that intersection. [You would have to have a death wish to ride the Greenfield Ave sidewalk and not come to a stop at Swinburne St. when it is open to traffic.])
andyc
2013-06-17 09:45:35
I've thought about an electric assist bicycle for my wife. Plenty of downsides to the idea, weight, cost, less exercise, lack of multi-mode ability. Also had my doubts about whether they were allowed on trails (or should be). But if they are, maybe it is something she'd be more receptive to than having to huff it without an assist, and any trips in the jeep grand cherokee that get replaced become big money saver, gas, maintenance, and parking wise. Does anyone have any experience with these? Granted, quite possibly is just the best day ever but any actual experience reports probably tell a little more than a marketing photo.
byogman
2013-06-17 10:36:50
I am fully against any gas powered vehicles on the trails. I like to see more and more bikes, but not ones with stupid motors on them. Two cycle motors are horrible and stink. I don't think we need that crap on the trails. Electric? I guess, but I don't get it. Just get a bike with gears and take your time.
gg
2013-06-17 12:41:08
Tehre was a guy caross the street from the had a gas motor assited bicycle. I live at Parkview Ave just north of the Blvd of the Allies. This bike was SO LOUD that , when he went down over the Swinburn St Bridge, I could hear whether he went right or left at Geenfield. I've also seen electric bikes cruising down the sidewalk and around corners at maybe 15 mph. That being said, I turned 60 this year. In a decade or two, I'm probably going to use an electric assist for the hills. (and maybe a recumbent tricyle.)
mick
2013-06-17 13:11:42
FWIW, some guy does ride a gas-engine assisted bike up Greenfield Ave around 11pm Whenever we used to get there around the same time (before I moved to Braddock) his assist would kick my ass. It was kind of whiny I thought you guys might have been talking about the train track trail between the bottom of the Homestead Grays Bridge and Braddock, because trucks go through there regularly to either fish/dump trash/bring their dune buggies/etc There was a bollard and gate out there, but first somebody broke the lock that was on it, and then when somebody put a chain somebody else ran over the bollard
sgtjonson
2013-06-17 18:19:09
@byogman, I don't have any experience with these things at all, but I think there are two styles of electric bikes; one where you can just hit a button and go, and some that are truly an assist and only kick in if you are turning the pedals.
marko82
2013-06-17 18:26:07
@Pierce: The stretch between Duck Hollow and the Rankin Bridge (which, I think, is the bit that you're talking about) is free territory. Anything goes. Until the people responsible for such things get around to aligning a bike trail, it's ok for anyone to do whatever they want (except, I guess, visiting the steel mill). Going through there I've had people roaring up at me in ATVs (scary) and there's always been trucks just parked (I assume with owners off fishing, or something). Sometimes a gang of roving teenagers... But you know, I kind of like that stretch. It's one of the more fascinating bits of Pittsburgh. Every urban landscape should have such terrains vagues . Places where people can (more or less) do anything they want, without being forced into arbitrary constraints of proper behavior. (Keeping in mind that hurting others is always out-of-bounds.)
ahlir
2013-06-17 19:25:54
helen s wrote:So where do electric bikes fit into this equation? They can certainly go as fast.
It depends. I know one owner of self made electric bike and his bike is capable to go 55 mph pretty easily and for a long time. Bike just has enough LiPo batteries on it and something like 850 Watts motor.
mikhail
2013-06-18 06:52:32
Not sure what my reaction would be to the original situation, I'd have to experience it. If the thing was properly muffled and the guy wasn't flying and acting like a douchebag, I probably wouldn't bat an eye. Since I started biking and using the bus seriously in about '08, I have halved my personal car use, probably 20% family-wide (my wife drives a shitload, and that's never changing. She is a more typical American). If I got an electric assist cargo bike I could probably halve it again, and I used to dismiss elec assist. I was riding into town one day and right during my regular life-threatening traverse of the West End Circle/W Carson Street passage, a guy silently wafted down W Carson on an assist cargo bike right in traffic, about 20-25 mph, like angels were pushing him. It was lovely.
edmonds59
2013-06-18 07:12:29
@mikhail: LiPo = Lithium + Polonium. This is in Russia, right? (I hope).
jonawebb
2013-06-18 07:20:07
@mikhail: LiPo = Lithium + Polonium. This is in Russia, right? (I hope).
Lithium polymer, I think you'll find. Polonium is usually restricted to space probes, laboratory experiments, and seasoned salt FOR MEN.
reddan
2013-06-18 07:37:40
jonawebb wrote:@mikhail: LiPo = Lithium + Polonium. This is in Russia, right? (I hope).
LiPo stands for Lithium Polymer in standard american. :P
mikhail
2013-06-18 07:42:56
@reddan + @mikhail, that's a relief... Mmmm those trans-uranium elements...
jonawebb
2013-06-18 07:56:24
reddan wrote:
jonawebb wrote: @mikhail: LiPo = Lithium + Polonium. This is in Russia, right? (I hope).
Lithium polymer, I think you’ll find. Polonium is usually restricted to space probes, laboratory experiments, and seasoned salt FOR MEN.
I've heard that sometimes those russians add it to a tea. :F
mikhail
2013-06-18 10:04:29
:( *edit* nevermind... this website doesn't like cyrillic.
headloss
2013-06-18 13:10:27
Nice Reddan, it's been a while Fun fact: Polonium powered bikes have been banned in bike polo
sgtjonson
2013-06-18 16:53:51
ЩО? Як це можливо? (no, not Russian. But still Cyrillic.)
ahlir
2013-06-18 17:58:21
on Mon around 7:30 am I saw two motorcycle cops riding eastbound on the Eliza. They we'rent going very fast, but seemed odd since both the parkway & second ave were pretty empty, Then after work, I rode behind a Venture Outdoors pickup truck driving on the northside trail from around the kayak rental out to the far edge of the houses. they may have been transporting goods to the rental location, but were still driving on the trail.
pbeaver
2013-06-18 20:06:21
EMT's on motorcycles were headed East on Jail Trail this morning. I don't see a problem with it.
lou-m
2013-06-19 13:07:48
I saw a guy who parked his car under one of these pillars to go fishing yesterday. He must've come off the highway, drove onto the trail, squeezed thru a section next to the river not much wider than his car. http://goo.gl/maps/IvaqL
erok
2013-06-20 09:03:58
Lou M. wrote:EMT’s on motorcycles were headed East on Jail Trail this morning. I don’t see a problem with it.
I saw them before and I DO have a problem with it. WTF, we only have a little bit of trail around here. Get the crap off the damn trails. Goodness, can't cyclists and joggers have a little spot of the f'n city? NO, I DON'T want them on there period!
gg
2013-06-20 20:04:54
Forget about our space vs. theirs, it's just dumb. If it's not an emergency, they're not special, and it goes without saying that any motorist should be following conventional rules of the ROAD. If it is an emergency, don't they have flashers/sirens to get through traffic and lights? The trails are narrow and aren't made for heavy vehicles and speed. Roads are, go everywhere, and with these aids seem like they ought to be the fastest thing possible. And nobody on the trail anticipates something moving fast around a bend, over the next rise, whatever, so they're creating a real danger. The only reason I can see that an EMT vehicle should be allowed on the trail is if they're responding to an emergency on the trail itself.
byogman
2013-06-20 20:20:01
Is there any reason to think they weren't heading to an emergency on the trail? I agree that they shouldn't be using it just to get from A to B quicker.
steven
2013-06-20 22:43:00
*EMTs on motorcycles This is kind of confusing because I've never seen EMTs on motorcycles. Like I've seen them on ATVs on/around beaches Were they emergency motorcycles?
sgtjonson
2013-06-21 01:16:05
byogman wrote:If it is an emergency, don’t they have flashers/sirens to get through traffic and lights? The trails are narrow and aren’t made for heavy vehicles and speed. Roads are, go everywhere, and with these aids seem like they ought to be the fastest thing possible. And nobody on the trail anticipates something moving fast around a bend, over the next rise, whatever, so they’re creating a real danger.
Those joggers blasting music in their headphones are in their own little worlds. This might be most dangerous to them. I've straight up yelled at people and they were still surprised when I squeezed around their group running 4 or 5 wide.
benzo
2013-06-21 07:11:44
^That. Some people, be they joggers, walkers, bikers, drivers, are so surprised when, time and time again, they discover that they are not the only people on Earth! Amazing. :/
edmonds59
2013-06-21 07:18:13
byogman wrote:Forget about our space vs. theirs, it’s just dumb. If it’s not an emergency, they’re not special, and it goes without saying that any motorist should be following conventional rules of the ROAD. If it is an emergency, don’t they have flashers/sirens to get through traffic and lights? The trails are narrow and aren’t made for heavy vehicles and speed. Roads are, go everywhere, and with these aids seem like they ought to be the fastest thing possible. And nobody on the trail anticipates something moving fast around a bend, over the next rise, whatever, so they’re creating a real danger. The only reason I can see that an EMT vehicle should be allowed on the trail is if they’re responding to an emergency on the trail itself.
Sounds like your argument is about their space vs. ours. Enjoy the day.
gg
2013-06-21 07:31:43
Sounds like your argument is about their space vs. ours. Enjoy the day. Kinda, I was just taking a step back to explain my perspective in detail rather than relying on what people already take for granted when using words like mine, yours, belonging, etc. The reason being that different people take different (and sometimes directly opposed) things for granted and then can't talk to each other. What was unclear, because I was trying to sound like a real human (and probably failing), was that I didn't think that we necessarily disagreed on perspective, just on how to talk about it. Getting into hair splitting territory, I should stop. But as foreign as I'm sure this seems, this IS me enjoying my day. You do the same :)
byogman
2013-06-21 08:35:02
Pierce wrote:*EMTs on motorcycles This is kind of confusing because I’ve never seen EMTs on motorcycles. Like I’ve seen them on ATVs on/around beaches Were they emergency motorcycles?
During big events I've seen EMT guys on bikes and seagways.
mikhail
2013-06-21 11:38:19
Ahlir wrote:??? ?? ?? ???????? (no, not Russian. But still Cyrillic.)
???, ???... ??? ???! It's not OK with Cyrillic. if you quote. I think problem is that I use UTF-8 and not CP-1251/1252.
mikhail
2013-06-21 11:41:10
On Friday of last week I was heading up past the soccer fields in the Hollow and noticed a couple just sitting there with lawn chairs right at the path just looking out. Thought that was odd, then I see why. Probably a 6 year old girl and 8 year old boy riding an ATV (quad) along the trail for fun.
lou-m
2013-08-05 14:07:50
Today I saw a very confused looking fellow driving his car on the paths through Point State Park. He slowly went under the bridge, with everyone in the park gawking at him, and headed toward the blockhouse. It didn't look like a service vehicle or security/police, either. Crazy.
joanne
2013-08-10 18:16:17
Incident along Montour Trail by the Robinson YMCA this evening. At least two vehicles that I know of apparently ran off of Montour Run Rd and into the creek bed. Guessing that the two flatbed haulers and tow truck that were on scene entered the trail at Brothers Grim. Well over an hour of the trail being completely blocked by the flatbeds between when we first saw them heading out, and when they were extracting the second vehicle during our return trip. And they were still knee deep in the process at that point. Unconfirmed report from another trail user that one person was transported to hospital, and another was transported to the clinker. Yikes!
smarchit
2013-08-19 21:42:33
Will we start seeing electric skateboards on the trails, soon? Ugh. I hope not. These look fun, but we should keep them off bike & pedestrian trails. The current cadillac model might be the golfboard (wide tires for grass): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sSj8hyybMGs http://golfboard.com specs: max speed is 11 mph, range is 18 to 36 holes of golf, which works out to 4-8 miles. $3600. Meanwhile, the simpler zboards (small, smooth wheels like a skateboard) sell for $650. http://www.zboardshop.com/
paulheckbert
2013-12-10 18:26:01
About a week or so ago a guy on a motorcycle was about to start heading down the SS trail towards Keystone Metals, but I was going the opposite way and he was right by the last gate by the red metal buildings and I was like "What are you doing on the trail?" and kind of corked it. He then did like a three point turn and went back through the gate and continued to ride back up the long road towards the HMB and made a left, presumably to go on Carson
sgtjonson
2013-12-11 01:12:24
Also, I don't know what the heck they're doing, but it seems like they've been doing work around the pump house for the past year and utility company vehicles regularly park in the bike lanes, which pisses me off because I have to go around them
sgtjonson
2013-12-11 01:15:03
paulheckbert wrote:Will we start seeing electric skateboards on the trails, soon? Ugh. I hope not. These look fun, but we should keep them off bike & pedestrian trails.
I don't really see the harm. It's one thing if they're go 25 and/or pack a wallop due to weight, but neither seem like issues here. The more people that use the trails the more demand there is for trails, the more get created, the more useful that network becomes.
byogman
2013-12-11 08:57:52
About 3 weeks ago, I was riding here: ... and a truck came around this bend at me way too fast for the trail. I screeched to a halt because he was taking up the entire trail and he wound up scraping the entire front/side panel of the truck against the stone wall on the other side to avoid a collision. Way to go, dude.
rustyred
2013-12-11 09:15:53
It's not unusual for me to see white Public works trucks on the Eliza Furnace Trail. They are typically getting on the trail under the Birmingham Bridge and then traveling to the end of the trail and the Public Works garage. I've complained about this before but those complaints have been dismissed, I am told they are doing authorized work, but the conditions I seem them under makes me think that they are using the trail as a shortcut to get past rush hour backups at 2nd Avenue and Bates Street. They are always traveling too fast because I know I can crank it up to 25mph on my bike but the trucks are always able to easily pull away.
kordite
2013-12-11 10:00:45
I'm OK with the battery skateboards if they can only go 11 tops. Most of the inertia will be from the rider's body, and that isn't much different from ambient trail speed anyway. Similarly, I haven't seen too many Segways on the trail, but don't have much problem with them being there, either, for much the same reason. Now if they soup them up to go far faster than ambient speeds, that's something else.
stuinmccandless
2013-12-11 10:56:21
Personally, I don't have a huge issue with cops on motorcyles occasionally riding on the EFT or other trail. As long as they are considerate, and keep their speed moderate, I appreciate the perception that it makes me safer as a trail user. Gas/electric motor vehicles are designed to be used on trails only (or primarily) as a mobility assist device. Not just for grins. The problem is, no one really has the authority to ask what the mobility impairment that requires one to use such a device is. So it can be, apparently, that they rider can't get up Greenfield Avenue to get home under their own power or something. Otherwise, its more of an ADA issue. Federal funds have gone into most trails. That assures universal accessibility. It a mobility aid is required, it has to be permitted, although each trail can establish limits/parameters. Electric skateboards? Hmm, that's a tougher sell. Although it sounds like it would be a lot of fun to try!
swalfoort
2013-12-11 12:21:04
Kordite wrote:...I’ve complained about this before but those complaints have been dismissed, I am told they are doing authorized work, but the conditions I seem them under makes me think that they are using the trail as a shortcut to get past rush hour backups at 2nd Avenue and Bates Street. They are always traveling too fast because I know I can crank it up to 25mph on my bike but the trucks are always able to easily pull away.
Even if they are doing authorized work, the drivers of those vehicles have no right to violate the posted 15 mph speed limit. Keep logging complaints, and make sure you note any identifying numbers, time of day, conditions, etc.... If 311/DPW won't respond, maybe KDKA will?
jaysherman5000
2013-12-11 12:35:59
I can't see golfers using those "golf boards". a. It might actually make it "fun". b. No place for booze. I imagine more of a market for some kind of hover suit, like Baron Harkonnen's.
edmonds59
2013-12-11 13:12:26
With the skateboard speed limited to 11 mph, they could get passed by a few of the better distance runners in town.
helen-s
2013-12-11 17:17:48
*sigh* @Kroll Dr This happens several times a day. It's fun to watch hitched trailers backing up on a narrow trail for a few hundred feet. Sometimes it takes a good ten minutes.
rustyred
2014-08-20 09:41:05
@rustyred: So that's on the North Shore Trail near the West End Bridge? Why are the trucks on the trail? Are they using it to turn around?
paulheckbert
2014-08-20 09:51:41
My best guess is that a GPS unit is telling them that the trail is a road to get to the Casino. They're turning down Kroll Drive from Beaver Ave, turning onto the trail and when they get to the barrier under the WEB, they have to back up several hundred feet to get back to Kroll Drive. We've seen Access buses, delivery trucks, small cars, and today a tractor trailer all trying to take the TRHT. The Cardello Building has a horse up, but they drive right around it or over it.
rustyred
2014-08-20 10:02:15
Someone should put barriers at the end of Kroll Drive.
mikhail
2014-08-20 10:07:15
I've notified FOTR. I assume they are aware of the issue, but if they weren't they are now! Thanks for the photo, Colleen.....it adds a nice perspective to the problem.
swalfoort
2014-08-20 10:15:24
@rustyred: I shared your comments with Jeffrey McCauley of Friends of the Riverfront, the group that manages that trail (I believe it's called the Chateau Trail at that point).
paulheckbert
2014-08-20 10:16:05
Hm, security of Casino parks their car from time to time on the trail. I've complained and they moved the truck. This 07/21/2014
mikhail
2014-08-20 10:59:12
Thanks, Paul! So, on my lunch hour just now, I noticed another box truck doing the backup. I rolled up to the driver who had the window down (to see where he was backing up) and just asked him: "You look lost...Did your GPS unit tell you to come down here?". He answered that he was told to make a delivery to 'the gravel lot behind the casino' and that 'it told me to turn on Kroll' He apologized and asked me to help him back up without squishing anyone or anything. Seems like a GPS issue.
rustyred
2014-08-20 11:44:33
I was on the steel valley trail, and saw someone on a small dirtbike, with a small child sitting on the handlebars. They were going pretty fast, more than the legal limit. My views on this when it says no motorized vehicle, it means exactly that. Don't matter if it is electric, gas, plutonium, nuclear, water powered, etc. No motorized means just that. What is so dang difficult about this??
look-out
2016-05-05 09:05:58
So glad to see those gates removed on the chateau trail. Havn't gone by there recently. need to check that out soon. Good work north side bike ped committee!
benzo
2016-05-05 10:52:15
The gates were also brought to the attention of DPW via cyclists on Twitter and I know there was some action on the part of Darlene Harris' office, as well. The trail itself isn't in great shape due to an old retaining wall in the river which will take more time and money to fix beyond any short term fixes.
mjacobpgh
2016-05-06 19:36:44