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Opportunity for Input - Pocusset Street in Schenley Park

This came to me today. This looks like a great opportunity to provide input on an important ped/bike link: This event is being sponsored by the Squirrel Hill Urban Coalition in conjunction with the City Department of Public Works and Councilman Corey O'Connor. Community Meeting to discuss Pocusset Road Re-Use Plan (Schenley Park segment only, between Pocusset Street and Greenfield Road) & Greenfield Bridge Replacement Update * * * Tuesday, September 10, 2013 7:00 p.m. Jewish Community Center of Greater Pittsburgh Levinson Hall, Room 202B 5738 Forbes Avenue, Pittsburgh PA 15217 * * * Squirrel Hill Urban Coalition Council Representative Corey O’Connor’s Office City of Pittsburgh, Department of Public Works invite you for a community discussion of two important transportation issues: 1) Proposed conversion of Pocusset Road (the Schenley Park section between Pocusset Street and Greenfield Road) to pedestrian/non-motorized vehicle use for safety reasons. ? 2) Update on Greenfield Bridge replacement – scheduled closure October, 2015. If you have questions in advance of the meeting, please contact: Office of Corey O’Connor - (412) 255-8965 * * * We need your help to spread the word! Please share this notice with friends & neighbors via your electronic networks and by handing out this notice to your neighbors. Thanks so much! 5604 SOLWAY STREET • PITTSBURGH, PA 15217 TEL: 412-422-7666 • FAX: 412.422-8802 WWW.SHUC.ORGINFO@SHUC.ORG
swalfoort
2013-08-28 16:01:41
That's interesting. I was wondering why they hadn't opened that street. I'm guessing they decided they're just going to let it continue to slide down the hill.
jonawebb
2013-08-28 16:08:07
1) On one hand that would be great, on the other hand it's possibly an excuse for the city to stop maintaining the road properly. 2) Darn you people! I was strategically planning my several year absence from Pittsburgh to avoid all of that nonsense, and they keep changing their minds! If I weren't 4,000 miles away I'd definitely go to this!
jeg
2013-08-28 16:21:52
Hey, JEG - I think email still works from that distance. Corey's email addy is above. Oops, I lied. SHUC email contact information is available tho. 4000 miles in what direction? I've forgotten.
swalfoort
2013-08-28 18:10:14
Thanks for posting this, I'll be there!
sarapgh2
2013-08-29 09:11:34
jeg's in Germany. Meanwhile, this might be a good opportunity to revive the idea of installing a switchback between Saline Street and Greenfield Road. Seems to me that the idea of connecting a neighborhood with a major park would be an easy sell. Having such a thing would make it far easier to get from SqHill to downtown without dealing with busy Oakland, too. Map
stuinmccandless
2013-08-29 11:15:58
jeg wrote:it’s possibly an excuse for the city to stop maintaining the road properly.
Hiya, jeg! This is actually a concern. There are bridal paths between Pocusset and the circle up at Prospect. But there are many felled trees blocking the path - it seems like someone went with a chain saw to deliberately block those paths. Not sure if it would be the denizens of Prospect Circle preventing police raids, or inhabitants of the neighborhood trying to block the circle people, but it appears deliberate.
mick
2013-08-29 12:18:37
StuInMcCandless wrote:Meanwhile, this might be a good opportunity to revive the idea of installing a switchback between Saline Street and Greenfield Road. Seems to me that the idea of connecting a neighborhood with a major park would be an easy sell.
That would be a great thing!
mick
2013-08-29 12:19:33
There used to be a small footpath between Greenfield St and Naylor street in the run. There also used to be a slightly larger switchback footpath from the Bridle Trail down to Boundary street. I have not taken either in a long time so I'm not sure if they still exist.
andyc
2013-08-29 12:34:49
This is an interesting angle on making the greenfield avenue climb more bike friendly. While I'd decidedly enjoy a no-traffic route for the climb, take it every day in fact, and the greenfield bridge being out for a year and a half is, ahem, an annoying prospect, I'd really be just as happy with an uphill lane on Greenfield in the long term. But this would be a bigger benefit than that to those who aren't really comfortable with that sort of climb on bike if you could also presumably run stairs with a bike rail directly along the steepest part of the gradient... thereby making a time efficient and easy route for the sort of riders who prefer to walk the bike up Greenfield today instead of huff and puff and more accessible one to those who might consider biking but for whom the climb is a deal killer. Of course, there's still a little work to do on Greenfield Rd. and then Hobart, and my very favorite, the left from Hobart onto Beacon. But it's an important start.
byogman
2013-08-29 12:53:46
There are stairs from the church in the run up to the school in Greenfield. I'm not sure exactly what state of disrepair they are in.
andyc
2013-08-29 13:13:18
Swalfoort wrote:Hey, JEG - I think email still works from that distance. Corey’s email addy is above.
sometimes, there is a limit on how far you can send emails.
jaysherman5000
2013-08-29 13:36:15
@andyc They're non-existent past the houses on the bottom end
sgtjonson
2013-08-29 14:15:37
@Jay - That is hilarious! Thanks for posting that. Leave it to the geostatisticians to highlight the exact nature of the problem!
swalfoort
2013-08-29 14:56:02
1) On one hand that would be great, on the other hand it’s possibly an excuse for the city to stop maintaining the road properly. That's a fine reason to convert or right-size a road. city saves money, street is no longer used as a speedway/cut thru, and there's another non-motorized connection
erok
2013-09-04 15:45:30
pocusset bike boulevard and a saline st. switchback up to greenfield road would make it possible to use junction hollow trail to get from squirrel hill into oakland. i wonder if the residents of that little neighborhood would oppose. seems like a sleepy little hollow that might have grown comfortable with its isolation. pocusset will become a mess when they close the greenfield bridge if they leave it open to car traffic. i can't imagine it being the official detour, but people will seek shortcuts. it's sketchy to walk or bike it now. absolutely nowhere to get off to the side and many turns let traffic creep up on you. i'd even settle for one or the other actions. the switchback or pocusset closure. but climbing the rubble hill up to greenfield road AND dealing with pocusset or going around via hobart into sqhill south is too much. the highway ramped speedway through schenley park and screwy dangerous intersection at its junction with greenfield is the real problem. you can't bike back from oakland to squirrel hill on it and even if you're willing to take the sidewalk or gravel trail in the park, they're on the wrong side of the road to access and then rejoin traffic at each respective end.
lee
2013-09-05 10:11:05
That part of Saline St would still be isolated from car traffic. The only through traffic would be cyclists. I cannot see why that would be objectionable. Two big plusses would be that residents could then gain easy access to Schenley Park, as well as easy non-motorized access to the Squirrel Hill business district. Closing Pocusset to motor traffic makes that even more desirable, in my book.
stuinmccandless
2013-09-05 11:49:45
I don't think a switchback ramp is on the table in any case. It would cost millions of dollars. What is the funding source? It maybe could have been included in the Greenfield Bridge reconstruction, but that ship has sailed, I believe. At this meeting the city will be talking about closing a street to car traffic; not any new construction projects.
jonawebb
2013-09-05 11:56:44
even a dirt trail instead of a hillside full of vw beetle sized rocks would be nice. but yeah, jon i was just dreaming along on here. i'll most likely attend the meeting at the jcc.
lee
2013-09-05 13:04:10
Where do kids on Naylor Street go to school? Would it also make sense to restore the steps up to Greenfield Elementary and St Rosalia's? I don't think we're talking millions of dollars to do this. I think the idea can be sold on the merits of making community assets walkable-to. If my kid could get to school on a 10-minute walk up a staircase and not have to cross a major street to do it, yeah, I'd live there. Talking point: Property values rise Talking point: (comparatively low-cost) gov't spending to improve quality of life
stuinmccandless
2013-09-05 13:07:50
[bump -- this is tonight]
epanastrophe
2013-09-10 09:18:16
I couldn't make this last night. I was at a Greenfield community meeting on monday nite, and they all seemed supportive of the closure. Any report back? I think this is kinda a big deal, if not for the length, but for the precedent it can set. I've been trying to think of an instance where a city took a paved street offline to motorized traffic, and dedicated it non-motorized travel, outside of say a bridge or business district situation like Times Square. Can anyone think of situations like this?
erok
2013-09-11 11:41:05
Sounds like it being converted to non-motorized is a done deal since there just ISN'T the money to deal with the washouts, build the underside back up to support the weight of motorized vehicles. Basic plan was 6 ft. wide bike lanes in the center, each direction with a 5 foot pedestrian area on the outside. Plowing and maintenance would then fall under the same category as other Schenley Park trails. They said they did need to preserve use of the road for emergency vehicles. Community seemed quite positive about it. The on topic concerns revolved around speeding on Pocusset, difficulties with the dead end (sign not being seen, garbage trucks having trouble turning around), and distrust that candlestick type barriers would really keep the motorized traffic out. "It only takes one" was a common theme. Bollards (and other, more expensive, implausible things) were suggested as alternates.
byogman
2013-09-11 12:01:10
@erok, technically Boundary street meets your description, although it took several decades to get the bike trail in after the road was closed.
marko82
2013-09-11 12:08:36
Cool thanks. i know the city folks really want this to close, but i wasn't quite sure how the community would respond.
erok
2013-09-11 12:08:54
Any mention of the 'mystery road' that used to go from poccuset to prospect drive? I can see on google street view that it looks like there seems to be a closed road there which connects the two streets right after the houses end on poccuset st.
benzo
2013-09-11 12:11:31
Whoa, I remember when that street was open. Closed maybe 1990+-? There's probably still road bed under there. I doubt they would have bothered to demo the road.
edmonds59
2013-09-11 12:30:01
i actually just rode this the other day. totally ridable, just needs to be cleaned up some, removal of down trees, trash, weeds, etc. I was in a meeting where there was a brief discussion with the city about daylighting that road, but i imagine that maintenance would be minimal. really, a few volunteers spending a few hours could make this work, but the city would need to remove a metal barrier
erok
2013-09-11 13:04:44
Reopening that street would make a much better connection from Hobart to Pocusset than currently exists (you either have to take Philips, which is Polish block there, Wightman, or Greenfield). The connection to the Greenfield Bridge from parts of Squirrel Hill (basically everything north of Hobart) would get significantly better, with less traffic.
jonawebb
2013-09-11 15:14:29
Benzo wrote:Any mention of the ‘mystery road’ that used to go from poccuset to prospect drive? I can see on google street view that it looks like there seems to be a closed road there which connects the two streets right after the houses end on poccuset st.
This was mentioned, yes--an attendee brought it up as an example of another former road that had been cut it off, and was not in great condition, and wondered if Pocusset would be equally poorly maintained. The gentleman from Public Works's response was that Pocusset would be maintained by Schenley Park as part of the bridle trail system. There were also concerns raised that drug use, public sex, and other Prospect circle problems would move down to the newly-closed area; the response both from Public Works and the police representative was that this was a reason for temporary or non-full-width barriers--aside from fire-dept access, it's so that patrol cars can get there.
epanastrophe
2013-09-11 15:55:08
By the way, there was absolutely no discussion of any ramps, staircases, or other connections from the Run to either Greenfield Ave or Squirrel Hill; the bridge-replacement portion of the program lasted perhaps ten minutes, and most of the attendees left after discussion of Pocusset Road ceased. @byogman and I did manage to convince the City PW rep to "look at" whittling some space out of the proposed travel lanes on the new bridge in order to create proper bike space on both sides--the current plan is, as mentioned elsewhere, for a five-foot bike lane (non-barrier) on the northbound (Park-bound) side, two 11-foot motorized lanes northbound, a 14-foot combined bike/motor southbound lane, and a 10-foot sidewalk (curb, no barrier). He mentioned that PennDOT had wanted 12-foot lanes given the bus and truck traffic*, but @byogman, noting that the existing lanes are 10 feet already, suggested the possibility of taking a foot from the center lane (so, going 5-11-10-11-?), and I wondered about the possibility of getting the other foot from the sidewalk. We attempted in particular to press upon him the fact that, while a rider may be able to keep up with traffic on the downhill section of Greenfield Road, the 90-degree turn into the bridge will force many to slow way down, and thus a separate space would be vastly preferred. He did also point out that all we're discussing here is the arrangement of paint on the roadway. With the exception of the curb for the sidewalk, there will be no barriers between any use spaces on the bridge. * He did acknowledge that the truck traffic is at best questionably legal, but seemed to shrug at it.
epanastrophe
2013-09-11 16:13:22
I rode down the abandoned street between Pocusset and Prospect and made a video here. It is, indeed, rideable, and not as steep as I'd thought it would be. There's a downed tree you have to get over, but otherwise only a little cleanup is necessary.
jonawebb
2013-09-14 12:32:52
So, they painted Pocusset, now we're just waiting for the "official" ends, candlesticks, signs, etc to go in. It's beautiful. Serious question: I can't seem to find a precedent for this, ie, taking a road that formerly carried motor vehicles, and converting it to non-motorized traffic only. Like they didn't just close the street and let the weeds grow, this is a programmed street that is paved, painted, etc for bikes only. it's basically a trail now, but it's kinda different because it was formerly a road. So question - what do we call this? We may have naming rights to this. I really like the language of "road diet" - it's a descriptive way to explain what happened. Any thoughts? @ Marko - what part of Boundary St are you talking about? "Right-sized street"
erok
2013-11-08 11:26:37
another cool shot or 2: doesn't that look fun?
erok
2013-11-08 11:28:15
erok wrote:@ Marko – what part of Boundary St are you talking about?
The Junction Hollow Trail, I assume...
epanastrophe
2013-11-08 11:31:17
I plan eventually to clear the fallen tree from the abandoned road up to Prospect. It's a nice connection to parts of Squirrel Hill north of Hobart. BTW riding Pocusset one night I found two branches on the road. They looked like somebody had deliberately placed them there horizontally across the place where a bike would go. So be careful at night.
jonawebb
2013-11-08 11:33:46
is this just simply a "Greenway?"
erok
2013-11-08 11:36:52
Maybe Boundary qualifies, but it if it took years, then it was more a paper street that then became a trail. this was an active street, that the city straight up converted to bikes only.
erok
2013-11-08 11:39:52
That first picture looks like a shot for promo literature! Heavenly. How soon till it's officially open?
byogman
2013-11-08 11:52:53
Repurposed street?
erok
2013-11-08 11:52:57
I've ridden it plenty of times while "closed." I guess we can't have our little (somewhat) secret personal streets forever. Now if there was just a path up from Saline. With the bike lanes on Wightman, that would link south Sq Hill straight to downtown.
andyc
2013-11-08 12:01:47
This is basically what is likely a better functioning (due to visual cues) multi-use path. I like "Motor free street". It's descriptive, has a positive vibe in the words, and projects the idea forward, that there could be two types of streets generally...
byogman
2013-11-08 12:07:00
How about "bike preserve", like a nature preserve, but it's also preserving the the road by eliminating cars
willb
2013-11-08 12:08:47
I'm so trying this out this afternoon!
sarapgh2
2013-11-08 12:59:43
On the Pocusset Street Preserve, one can see the rare urban creature, "the bicyclist" in its natural habitat.
erok
2013-11-08 13:24:31
WillB wrote:How about “bike preserve”, like a nature preserve, but it’s also preserving the the road by eliminating cars
So asphalt preserve?
rice-rocket
2013-11-08 13:24:40
"Road nouveau".
edmonds59
2013-11-08 13:43:35
So when do we get really hard to see (at dusk / night) bollards and gates installed?
benzo
2013-11-08 14:10:08
They are apparently going to install the reflective candlesticks, which depending on how it's done, may not keep everyone out. I'm not sure of the final design, but they really do want to prevent the random a-hole from driving on it. Also, that area is lit at night with overhead street lights.
erok
2013-11-08 14:21:56
We're thinking: "Road Shift" kinda a play on "Mode Shift"
erok
2013-11-08 15:32:49
@erock, buffalo2 is correct. Boundary street was not just on paper, it used to be open to cars all the way through to the run. It was a family favorite shortcut from 5th ave to 2nd ave. when I was a kid. They then closed the road completely for a decade or two and a scrap yard sprung up in the area that is now the soccer field. The Junction Hollow Trail is right where the old road used to be, and if you look past the weeds on your left (heading toward Oakland) you can still see some of the pavement. It's not as cool as making a bike-only street immediately after closing it to cars, but it was a car road converted to a bike trail. And I think the new term to be used for streets like Pocusset is ---Progress!
marko82
2013-11-08 16:05:01
We should come up with a name for the disused road / trail that runs up to Prospect.
jonawebb
2013-11-08 16:15:42
Well, i'm using the term "paper street" in a sense that it was officially taken off the transportation system, not just only existing on paper. There's several streets at the end of my old street in the Hill where they put jersey barriers up and just let the weeds grow. the pavement is still there, but it's now a "paper street" that they city still owns. Boundary was probably the same thing, but only after they figured out another use for it was it daylighted.
erok
2013-11-08 16:57:50
maybe paper street is the wrong term
erok
2013-11-08 16:59:53
t?-m?-t? - t?-mä-t? Whatever you call it, the street is ours! Edit: It worked in the input box. Grrrrr...
marko82
2013-11-08 18:21:00
I just looked up that stretch of Pocusset on the G -Map: It's no longer marked as a street! Wow, that was fast. I remember the road from Pocusset to Prospect from way back when. I would always climb it on my way home from wherever (I then lived in that part of town). Then they closed it. The last time I rode it (a couple of years ago) it had pretty much all but disappeared (and that log across the road was already there). I makes perfect sense to open it up again and make it bike/pedestrian only. It naturally continues the new Pocusset trail into Schenley Park, and maybe gets the bikes off Greenfield Rd. I hope that the BikePgh is on the case. Way back when Boundary past Panther Hollow was a gravel road that connected Oakland to the neighborhood under the Parkway. The only thing I seem to remember about it is this one house that had a bunch of vicious dogs chained up in front, barking and straining at their chains as you rode by.
ahlir
2013-11-08 20:14:28
Parkway Busway Bikeway!
pseudacris
2013-11-11 15:57:24
How big is that downed tree? How many of us would it take to just pick it up and turn it parallel to the path of travel?
stuinmccandless
2013-11-11 17:10:27
It's pretty clear that the road/trail in question (between Pocusset and Prospect) is in Schenley Park. Perhaps a City resident should 3-1-1 a request that it be cleared. Perhaps this could be taken to Peduto for his consideration in the longer term. It looks like a great connection to what will be a great BikeStreet - Pocusset.
swalfoort
2013-11-11 17:47:49
It's not big at all. I don't know how hard it would be to move, though, without cutting it first. It would be easy to fix with a chainsaw, and I'll do it as soon as I get access to my friend's. But if someone has a chainsaw or even a regular handsaw and is willing to take the time it would be easy to do.
jonawebb
2013-11-11 20:36:09
maybe i can help , Is the tree on Pocusset street> need directions
cowchip
2013-11-12 00:52:37
The term that I have always used is "ghost road"... not ever are they actually re purposed but like "dellenbaugh" out in east deer is kept up by locals and used as a walking trail, even though it is just officially closed. Topographically very similar to Pocusset.... In regards to the video Jona posted... Make a lot of noise if you are going up there... In case you dont know, this area is very very very well known for public gay sex. Also, I feel that the area to the left of that old road would be a perfect place for a pump track.
steevo
2013-11-12 13:05:03
Three trees. The first looks like it will require a saw. The second, if we get two or three people on it, I think can be rotated out of the way without a saw. The third is more a hanging obstruction that can be avoided, but would be better to be cut out of the way so someone doesn't plow into it at night. A couple of person-hours of work on the trees. Eliminating the brush alongside will be a much larger job. As to the local two-legged fauna having fun, of whatever gender, ... meh ... if they're bothering with each other, they're not bothering me. Live and let live. If we're bothering them, they'll move farther back off the trail.
stuinmccandless
2013-11-12 13:34:43
The abandoned road connecting Pocusset Street to Prospect Drive appears to be known by the city as "Pocussett Drive" (yes, two t's) according to this topographical map: http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/cp/maps/topo/2010/TopoColor_054.pdf I suspect that the original distinction was that the road was intended to bear the "Drive" suffix within Schenley Park and the "Street" suffix for the residential portion outside the park. I'm assuming its original intent was to be a winding, scenic way through the park, similar to Serpentine Drive a little further north. Anyway, I imagine that when the now-overgrown segment from Prospect was closed, the remaining portion still bearing the "Drive" suffix became known as "Street" out of simplicity and/or ignorance.
nothlit
2013-11-12 16:39:24
Thanks, @nothlit, good to know.
jonawebb
2013-11-12 16:41:47
Awesome! Saves me a trip to the City County Building to research the name! Thanks.
swalfoort
2013-11-12 17:04:41
i will try to make it over there as soon as i find time / thanks for the video
cowchip
2013-11-13 01:44:37
Today's Roundabout column in the PG has a different take on the situation with the Pocusset Bikeway.
This one slipped by us a while ago but if you were wondering, the Pocusset Street closure at the Greenfield Avenue Bridge in Pittsburgh is indefinite, caused by road stability issues. This is one of those projects that might go forward if the Legislature passes a transportation funding bill.
Hopefully the PG just hasn't gotten the bikeway memo yet.
steven
2013-11-13 12:27:57
Based on the public meeting, it's definitely going to re-open as a bikeway. They couldn't rule out that they might later close it, sure up the road base to what they'd need to support motor vehicle weight, and change the designation back to roadway. But it certainly wasn't put forward as a realistic possibility owing to the cost. That was driven home several times. Also, it would have to go through rounds of public meetings and the overwhelming consensus at the meeting was one in favor of the conversion to a bikeway and general concern about motor vehicle speed and driving habits on Pocusset. The link to the column seems broken to me, btw, but I wouldn't be too concerned.
byogman
2013-11-13 12:52:47
cowchip wrote:i will try to make it over there as soon as i find time / thanks for the video
If you're going to be over there sometime soon I could lend a hand and give you that reflective tape. (Just not this weekend.)
renny
2013-11-13 13:08:42
I submitted a request to 311 that the pedestrian/bicycle roadway concept now in place on Pocusset Street be extended to Pocussett Drive, and that the vegetation be cleared. Here's the text: There is an abandoned roadway in Schenley Park that extends from Pocusset Street to Prospect Drive. The name of this roadway was Pocussett Drive at one time. The surface of this roadway is actually still in very good condition. It is overgrown, and has some fallen trees, but still usable as a pedestrian/bicycle connection. With the new designation of Pocusset Street as a pedestrian/bicycle roadway, it would be nice to see the City clear some of the vegetation from Pocussett Drive, and create a second pedestrian/bicycle roadway in that location. Pedestrians and cyclists are currently able to navigate the barriers at the north and south ends of Pocussett Drive, but a small future investment in a more bike friendly barrier design could also be warranted. I'll be interested in seeing the City response.
swalfoort
2013-11-14 15:18:54
Probably you know better than me, but wouldn't it be good to contact Stephen Patchan and Patrick Hassett on this issue, too? Oh yeah, and maybe Corey O'Connor.
jonawebb
2013-11-14 15:49:21
Jonawebb, yep, I should do that. I'll do so this evening. I don't actually know what the story is in the way of a "parks department" in the City. Anyone?
swalfoort
2013-11-14 16:13:13
Yeah, I've sent a message to Corey, too. I'm in his district, of course.
jonawebb
2013-11-14 16:27:54
Heard back from Corey's staff -- they're contacting public works. And I talked with Steve Patchan on the Carnegie International bike ride Saturday about this -- he said he'd check it out. So maybe something will happen.
jonawebb
2013-11-18 09:01:49
I am glad to hear that Corey and Steve are interested. I got the standard 311 response that they would forward my comment to Public Works. I've not heard anything back from Pat Hassett directly yet, though.
swalfoort
2013-11-18 19:12:38
Not to be all that negative, but closing the street might simply in anticipation of the bridge rebuilding. The bit I don't understand as yet is whether there will be room for a bike path past the construction site. But getting Pocussett re-opened (and assuming that the bridge will incorporate designated bike lanes) will be a major improvement.
ahlir
2013-11-18 19:33:30
Ahlir wrote:Not to be all that negative, but closing the street might simply in anticipation of the bridge rebuilding.
I recall from the public meeting in september that Hassett said there were no plans to reopen pocussett. It's not just that it can't handle the level of traffic that was expected while the bridge was out, it can't really handle any level of heavy-weight traffic. It would require a lot of work to shore up the hillside underneath the road to take any kind of weight, and IIRC DPW doesn't think it's worth it.
epanastrophe
2013-11-18 20:32:19
Post-Gazette headline: Bicyclists plunge to their death as roadway collapses
ahlir
2013-11-18 20:52:17
Ahlir wrote:Post-Gazette headline: Bicyclists plunge to their death as roadway collapses
Comments: They deserved it because they do not stop at stop signs.
czarofpittsburgh
2013-11-18 21:23:38
So is there any chance at all that, after/during bridge reconstruction, Saline Street will be extended under the bridge, to hook up with the closed part of Pocusset Street?
stuinmccandless
2013-11-18 21:31:47
I don't remember Pocusset being mentioned at all in the discussion of Greenfield.
jonawebb
2013-11-18 21:38:19
It would be incredible if they did, that's for sure. Do we have an idea, even just order of magnitude, what the cost of such a thing would be?
byogman
2013-11-18 21:45:01
Ahlir wrote:Post-Gazette headline:
Bicyclists plunge to their death as roadway collapses
Comments: They deserved it because they do not stop at stop signs.
Emergency responders who excavated the bodies say several of the cyclists were not wearing helmets.
reddan
2013-11-18 21:49:49
Saline to the end of Pocusset is 140ft of elevation change; the straight line distance is ~500ft, so that's something like 30% grade. You could cut that down if there's room to go under the bridge, but it doesn't seem like it would be easy to build a trail on that hillside. Of course, there might be room for switchbacks, etc. I don't know the terrain there at all, but it might be worth exploring. BTW, we probably covered this before but what's the deal with the other Saline St? Did it used to connect before the Parkway existed?
salty
2013-11-18 22:11:15
jonawebb wrote:We should come up with a name for the disused road / trail that runs up to Prospect.
Gay Way
paulheckbert
2013-11-18 22:37:47
marko82
2013-11-18 22:39:54
erok wrote: I can’t seem to find a precedent for this, ie, taking a road that formerly carried motor vehicles, and converting it to non-motorized traffic only.
I just ran into a road-trail (as opposed to rail-trail) like this in Niagara Falls NY: two of four lanes of the Robert Moses Parkway were converted from car use to very-wide bike trail in the 2000s. See map http://goo.gl/6pxcO7 and history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Moses_State_Parkway . And they're planning to eliminate even more of that road: http://www.buffalonews.com/20130220/state_will_rip_out_robert_moses_parkway_in_niagara_falls.html . It says "The road provided unparalleled views ... to motorists but cut off generations of city residents from the waterfront". Sounds like I376 in downtown Pittsburgh.
paulheckbert
2013-11-18 23:06:07
salty wrote:Saline to the end of Pocusset is 140ft of elevation change; the straight line distance is ~500ft, so that’s something like 30% grade. You could cut that down if there’s room to go under the bridge, but it doesn’t seem like it would be easy to build a trail on that hillside. Of course, there might be room for switchbacks, etc. I don’t know the terrain there at all, but it might be worth exploring.
Maybe the trail could be built to follow the ravine around through the park and join up with Saline Street further west. Also, has anyone else ever noticed the old stone retaining wall that is in Schenley Park, maybe about 50' below Greenfield Road and overlooking the parkway? It looks like there used to be some sort of trail built on top of this wall. Perhaps it could be reused if a new trail is built.
salty wrote:BTW, we probably covered this before but what’s the deal with the other Saline St? Did it used to connect before the Parkway existed?
Here's another way to view the old Saline/Forward Street: http://peoplemaps.esri.com/pittviewer/ Just pan over to the Greenfield bridge area and slide the bar back to 1923 or 1939 to see the old maps or aerial photos of the area. My apologies to everyone's bosses.
jonawebb wrote:I don’t remember Pocusset being mentioned at all in the discussion of Greenfield.
If you mean the public meeting with Public Works regarding the bridge replacement, there was a limited mention of Pocusset. It was mentioned that it is a winding, narrow road that is unsafe for pedestrians. The consensus was reached that sidewalks on the new bridge should only be built on the west side of the road, since there is nowhere to go on that side of the bridge once you enter Schenley Park. All of which was true at the time.
brent
2013-11-19 08:04:04
byogman wrote:It would be incredible if they did, that’s for sure. Do we have an idea, even just order of magnitude, what the cost of such a thing would be?
We're talking about two different things here. One is reopening Pocusett Drive between Prospect and Pocusset Street. I'm guessing that can be done at little cost, since the road is still in decent shape. All you'd have to do is remove the guardrail at the bottom and replace the guardrail at the top with a gate or something to block auto access, and clear the road. The other is connecting the Schenley Park-side of Greenfield Bridge to Saline Street below. This is a much more expensive project, but it is still feasible. I have a message from a county engineer: "Note the elevation difference between 948 and 810 at the end of the pavement is 138’. With 500 feet straight between them, average slope will be 28%. Stairs will be steeper with the landings. All is on city property. Running the alignment behind the building to Naylor Street would result in a longer route 700’) that is less steep (20% average)." He's referring to the topographic map I've uploaded here. I think that's an expensive project, which could have been done as part of the Greenfield Bridge demolition, but I don't think it was included in the plans, even though it was raised at the public meetings etc.
jonawebb
2013-11-19 09:05:28
@brent, that map is awesome thanks for the link.
marko82
2013-11-19 09:38:22
paulheckbert wrote:two of four lanes of the Robert Moses Parkway were converted from car use to very-wide bike trail in the 2000s.
I'm really glad to hear that it's the "former" Robert Moses Parkway, and that part of it has been opened up and converted to bicycle usage. I'm reading a biography of Robert Moses now, and what a rat bastard he was. Many of the problems we have with poor infrastructure planning and overreliance on cars can be traced directly to him.
jonawebb
2013-11-19 10:15:47
I'm so glad they're tearing down that stretch of the Robert Moses! I used to live right next to it, almost in the picture at the top of the Buffalo News story. Hopping across the little barrier and running over the parkway to the gorge trail wasn't very hard from my house, especially since there was hardly any traffic - nothing like 376. But it's definitely an eyesore, and a lot harder to cross for people trying to access the waterfront from Niagara University a little upstream. The exit from the university is a 5-way intersection or something crazy like that, and the signal to leave doesn't activate without the weight of a car - so bikes and pedestrians trying to get to the trail have a really hard time getting clear across. I don't even recall any crosswalks. Unfortunately I don't think they'd be getting rid of it if it were heavily used by motorists, so I don't think we can see it as much of a precedent for Pittsburgh.
richierich
2013-11-19 10:34:44
The prospect of 138 vertical feet in 500 to connect up from Saline is kind of hilarious. Not that it would ever be built, but if it were, it would become a type 2 fun magnet. Even given 700 feet from Naylor, that's a tough climb. Neither straight shot route is worthy of consideration if the goal is to make something for current bike commuters, and especially, would be bike commuters. What that means is stairs with a bike rail straight up the middle is the most reasonable first cut at the problem, and big swooping switchbacks built in as/if money comes available. So, order of magnitude cost estimates for each?
byogman
2013-11-19 10:59:32
Adding a non-ADA-compatible set of steps should be straightforward, as a first cut. We have how many sets of non-ADA-compatible steps in the city already? And how many of those connect vertical changes of 140 feet? But yes, add a bike rail. The steps from the Armstrong Tunnel to Duquesne U can serve as an example of a minimal design. At about 210 steps from top to bottom, I'm guessing we're looking at something like that to start. Adding a bike rail to that would make that set much more appealing.
stuinmccandless
2013-11-19 17:09:55
I took this in this morning. Awesome but too short. We need these all over town! Oh and beware of an abundance of wet leaves on the road.
lou-m
2013-11-22 10:23:37
It's a really fun road to ride down. I'm often headed between Greenfield and SE Sq Hill and much prefer to take Pocusset St over going up and over Greenfield ave. (It frightens me a bit cresting the Greenfield Ave hill where I am tired and going slow, people race from behind, and there is 100% parked car coverage on the side of the road.) Do be careful of the debris though.
andyc
2013-11-22 11:05:41
Roughly speaking, what the newly non-motorized bit of Pocusset parallels is Greenfield road (avenue is across the bridge) followed by a right on Hobart. Is that what you mean? If so, I agree, the drivers coming up Hobart toward Squirrel Hill are an impatient bunch and go too fast cresting. They go even faster rouding the bend on Beacon. I make the left from Hobart onto Beacon every day, and it's ahem, fun. Unfortunately, Pocusset isn't a remotely efficient part of my route. I'd take it every day now if it were.
byogman
2013-11-22 12:36:44
I mean the very top of Greenfield Ave (not Greenfield Rd) heading towards Hazelwood Ave.
andyc
2013-11-22 12:55:47
Any update on the status of the trees on Pocussett Drive? I spoke with Pat Hassett today. He says the City is willing to learn more about the possibility of making BOTH Pocusset and Pocussett ped/bike roadways. The more "user ready" it is, the more likely they are to react quickly, I suspect. What's the status on the trees? Any plans for a work party any time soon?
swalfoort
2013-12-12 15:52:28
I haven't gotten over there yet. I did ride down it a week or so ago and they were still there. I'll see if I can get to it this weekend. BTW they put the candlesticks downstreet from the Pocussett Dr. entrance -- so now they'll need to put candlesticks at both ends of Pocussett Dr -- no big deal but it could have been easier.
jonawebb
2013-12-12 16:09:52
@andyc You mean up the hill from the Greenfield GE? I agree. Cars are always rushing to get to the stop sign a few hundred feet away.
sgtjonson
2013-12-12 16:58:49
Paul Heckbert and I cleared the old Pocussett Drive (between Pocusset St and Prospect) today. There was quite a bit of chainsawing -- one of the trees was much bigger than I remembered. We also had a bit of legal excitement. A lady came up the trail, claiming to be from the city, saying we couldn't do this, and she was going to call the cops. Well, we said go ahead, she took our picture, and we continued. We finished up, and then as we were leaving the cops showed up. I talked with them. The main concern was whether someone had lied by claiming to have a permit the day before. Anyway, everything was eventually resolved, handshakes all around. It turns out the lady was from Corey O'Connors office and will probably be a help to us in getting Pocussett Drive opened to bike traffic. The officer also wanted to talk with Bike Pgh people about bike safety -- seems he might be a help, too. We exchanged business cards, so I have their contacts. Three police vehicles were there at the end.
jonawebb
2013-12-31 11:58:31
Whew, nice to know the path is clear, but sorry for the excitement. Sounds like it was a win-win-win experience for all, however. Thanks,
swalfoort
2013-12-31 12:17:09
Thank you! Will check it out soon. Did you smile for the photo? BTW, when are the official barriers going away? Still saw as of I think last Thursday. Crazy.
byogman
2013-12-31 13:06:04
Thanks for taking care of this, I'll have to check it out.
salty
2013-12-31 13:25:59
Here are pictures of Pocusset Drive: before: during (Jon with saw) during (Paul with saw) after:
paulheckbert
2013-12-31 15:03:44
I guess I missed something. Why would you need a permit to do anything? Would I have needed a permit to sweep glass off the Glenwood Bridge last summer?
stuinmccandless
2013-12-31 15:07:54
Modification of public property by anyone other than public works is frowned upon. Hell, you can't even modify your own house without consulting the city. Not to say it's all bureaucratic nonsense... The idea is, what if there's a buried electrical or sewer line that you sever when you drop a tree on it? Also, if you're "re-opening" a public access road that was closed at some point in time, what was the reason it was closed to begin with and could re-opening it cause potential harm to the users or the surrounding people/area? It's all about covering your ass when something goes awry.
rice-rocket
2013-12-31 15:27:11
Well done gentlemen. It looks like you had a lot of fun with that saw; give me a ring if you happen to need a hand sharpening it.
jmccrea
2013-12-31 15:40:08
Thank you both. That was a good and extraordinarily generous deed.
astrobiker
2014-01-01 21:06:24
I wrote an email to the lady that Jon mentioned (see 12/31, above). She works in Corey O'Connor's office (Pittsburgh City Council district 5) and after confronting us for chainsawing fallen trees, the argument calmed down some and she expressed an interest in working within city government to help cyclists. Hence this letter: --- Could you and the city please help with maintenance to Pocusett Drive, which is I believe the name for the abandoned road between Pocusset St and Prospect Dr that is closed to cars? Jon Webb and I did what we could to clear that road for cyclists and pedestrians, as you saw on Tuesday, but there's still room for improvement. In particular, if you could arrange for Public Works to clear away the remaining branches, that would be great! In its current condition, there are several fallen trees still partially blocking the paved road. It would be nice to have those fully cleared away so that through cyclists, parents with strollers, kids biking in Schenley Park, etc, can more easily and more safely use Pocusset Drive as a wide, paved path. Also, you mentioned that the city has plans to move and rebuild the barricade across the bottom of Pocusset Drive, to allow garbage trucks to turn around more easily on Pocusset St, while keeping cars off the Drive. A request here: the current barricade is not good for people on bicycles, or people with strollers, since it forces them to swerve around a sharp metal guard rail to the edge of the asphalt where it meets the sloping ground. If the barricade could be redone with vertical plastic bollards, as Pocusset St was redone, that would be a big improvement. Or maybe a metal barricade with a 3 foot gap in the middle of the road. Attached are a couple pictures and an explanation of why Pocusset Drive is useful as a bicycle connector. Good luck as the Peduto administration starts up! I don't live in Pittsburgh (I'm from Edgewood) but I use Schenley Park and I like to do what I can to help the parks. Thanks -Paul bottom of Pocusset Dr, where it tees into Pocusset St, showing barricade around which cyclists must swerve east end of Pocusset St bike trail, showing plastic bollards. Pocusset Dr is just to the right. Why Pocusset Drive is a helpful link, for cyclists: 1) The Eliza Furnace Trail (Jail Trail) is a vital link in Pittsburgh's bicycle network. For anyone that lives in central Squirrel Hill and commutes to work downtown or in the Southside, finding a safe route down the hill to Four Mile Run (Big Jim's) to get on the trail is a important. 5th Ave to Neville/Boundary St has too much traffic. Similarly for Bates. Another alternative is the Panther Hollow Trail in Schenley Park, but that's unpaved, so some cyclists don't like it. That leaves Greenfield Ave as the best route. So a good bike route from (say) Forbes & Murray to Greenfield Rd & Greenfield Ave is important. 2) One option there is Bartlett to the busy intersection with Panther Hollow Rd, then continuing straight on Greenfield Rd across 376. But Greenfield Rd gets a lot of medium-speed traffic, so it's somewhat unsafe for cyclists. 3) Now that the end of Pocusset St is closed to cars, this opens what is probably the best option: Hobart to Prospect Dr to Pocusset Dr to Pocusset St to Greenfield Rd. An advantage of this over option 2 is that on the return trip, climbing up to Squirrel Hill from the Eliza Furnace Trail, much of the climbing would be done on Pocusset St and Dr, which are both closed to cars! So once cyclists get off Greenfield Ave & Rd onto Pocusset St, they can relax and stop worrying that an inattentive driver will run them off the road while texting. 4) Note that biking Wightman to Phillips to Pocusset St is less desirable, because Phillps is cobblestone, which is not pleasant for cyclists. As Pocusset Drive gets used more, there's the probable side benefit that increased cyclist traffic will help discourage use of Prospect Drive as a gay pickup spot, thereby making this part of Schenley Park more family-friendly.
paulheckbert
2014-01-03 18:40:08
Thanks, Paul and Jon!
pseudacris
2014-01-06 13:29:07
Hey, guess what! I was walking my bike through Pocusset St (it is really impassible without a fat bike) and I saw they put up the candlesticks on Pocussett Drive! The guardrail is gone! Thanks to Lynette Lederman in Corey O'Connor's office (lynette.lederman at pittsburghpa.gov) for getting this done. Now, if they could plow Pocusset St...
jonawebb
2014-02-08 13:36:03
I used Google Mapmaker to add the "Pocusset Drive Trail" to Google Maps, a few weeks ago, and my change was approved. Just go to Google Maps and turn on "bicycling" to see this: Also note, Pocusset Street (not Drive) was written up here: http://pittsburghparks.wordpress.com/2014/02/20/that-first-ride/
paulheckbert
2014-03-05 19:16:43
i saw that the other day and was impressed that google was so on it
erok
2014-03-05 20:03:45
Thanks Paul, always nice to make the system more discoverable! The little backwards Z down and back formed by prospect, the trail, and Pocusset Street is going to be a wonderfully convenient place for low stress riding. I hope a lot of cyclists take advantage and I hope that cyclist traffic makes some of the shadier activities that reportedly take place there less attractive; that it becomes a family friendly kind of place. The icing on the cake would be if Prospect drive itself became bike/ped only at some point.
byogman
2014-03-05 21:20:43
Eight of us rode the new Pocusset trail on Sunday in the fresh snow. Aside from needing to watch for branches and cut trees sticking out, it is quite passable.
stuinmccandless
2014-03-06 07:10:12
I'd be happy to be a part of any additional cleanup efforts here.
byogman
2014-03-06 10:07:02
Ok. There is now a work order with the parks department to have the tree blocking the path cleared, which was the last thing keeping the path from being traversable without dismounting. Some work has already been done, some of the branches off the fallen tree were trimmed off, and it's relatively easy to sneak your bike around the right hand side of the fallen tree and get down the trail. The path is mostly cleared, and completely passable. Just keep an eye out for pieces of cut down trees and overgrowth. It gets a bit dark and shadowy on the trail, so stay alert. Might want to stay away from here during the day while crews are working (cutting down and replanting trees on the other side of the street), but nobody seems to be around after 5pm or so during the week. I'll keep an eye out for when this is totally clear and drop a line here.
benzo
2014-06-07 09:48:32
That's incredible. What's the work order number? I'll be getting my kids out there the first clear day after the tree is gone.
byogman
2014-06-08 08:32:29
Not sure of the work order number. See the 311 thread for more details (got the request number in there, but I don't think that's dpw's work order). I work near here, so I'm scoping this out every couple days, so I'll let you know when I see progress.
benzo
2014-06-08 11:15:04
Bumping this thread so the more recent but originally slightly off topic one: http://localhost/mb/topic/so-now-the-left-from-hobart-onto-beacon-is-apparently-impossible/page/2/ doesn't get the traffic by default. Of course the context now is Benzo's response: "311 Response Web Form Reply Notification The following reply has been made to Ticket ID #98063: Thank you for contacting 311. Request ID# 390922 has been assigned to your concern. The Dept. of Public Works now has a work order to removed the tree at Pocussett Drive @ Pocussett Drive Trail. 311 Response Team" Jonawebb's response: "Summary of action taken: THIS TRAIL HAS BEEN CLOSED PER THE POLICE. THE TREE TRUNK WILL NOT BE REMOVED BECAUSE NO ONE SHOULD BE ON THIS TRAIL. — J. KOCH" And some emails and suggested contact points. The seeming internal tug of war in the city suggests the possibility of doing some convincing. But I think it has to be on more humble terms. I'd like to try and "reboot" the discussion that way. So, what would be great about this IF it stays open and how to convince people of that, because I think, given the history on Prospect and when it filtered down to lower Pocusset, this is very much not a given. Basically, I think the neighbors and city have to be convinced this (keeping pocusset trail drive open and making it official for bike/ped (and I'd argue do-motorizing Prospect as well)) is the best shot for making a favorable not sex or drug or crime attracting locale that's an asset, not a liability to the neighbors and beyond.
byogman
2014-10-13 14:01:39
Agree @byogman -- also that Lynette Lederman can be made part of the solution, not the problem. She seemed persuadable the day Paul and I first met her, after we did the chain-sawing. And somebody in the city did put the bollards up in place of the guardrails that used to be there.
jonawebb
2014-10-13 14:07:49
I will note, especially in light of (DPW supervisor) J.Koch's comment and the ensuing conversation between Jon Webb, Paul Heckbert, and Corey O'Connor's office, that I rode the Pocusset Street Trail (the lower street, between S.Hill and the Greenfield Bridge) last night, and I specifically noticed that there was no notice that the 'Pocussett Drive Trail' (the old road up the hill) was closed; in fact, it bears the same line of plastic flexible bollards that the newer trail has, and is pretty much indistinguishable in condition, at least from the intersection.
epanastrophe
2014-10-13 14:11:20
The article is about traffic calming and crime reductions with several examples. The Dayton one is especially great because it involves closing streets to through-traffic.
byogman
2014-10-13 14:14:51
Biggest lesson... make something decently nice, people take pride and take care of it.
byogman
2014-10-13 14:16:20
Coming up from the bottom, Pocussett looks like it's a trail. If it were not then the guard rail that used to be there would have been repaired instead of being replaced by bollards. I get the impression that it's a right-hand/left-hand thing in the municipal system. The P.W.S.A. map doesn't show any sewer lines. I don't think I' ever remember seeing a manhole on that road. I guess the point is to give us reasons to worry about riding there... Halloween.
ahlir
2014-10-13 18:23:45
Man-hole..... eh, dont really want to go there!
marko82
2014-10-13 18:33:59
I think the city actually came in and cleaned the Pocussett St. trail today. I grumbled about the mess of leaves in the morning figuring it would keep getting worse and eventually get slidey or slippery when wet, but on the way back through this evening the leaves and sticks were pretty much all gone. Not something I saw coming. Way to go, city! Maybe they'll even clear the snow from it this year?
richierich
2014-10-29 21:00:38
I've been along Pocusset Drive Trail twice in the past couple weeks, between Pocusset Street and Prospect Drive. Each visit was on a weekday and short: about three minutes. On my first visit I saw five people walking the trail (one group appeared to be a mom, dad, and their kid about ten years old). The trail gets quite a bit of use! That time I searched and didn't find any open manholes. The second time I biked through I saw a mom pushing a stroller (with baby) along the trail. I'm sure for them it helps to have the fallen trees cleared, to make it easy to walk the trail without lifting the stroller. I searched again and this time I finally found a small open storm drain at the edge of the road. It was a safety hazard (small person could fall into it and hurt a leg, perhaps). This is probably what Corey O'Connor was referring to when told me there was a missing manhole cover. We took care of that with a large log. Problem solved. before: after:
paulheckbert
2014-11-11 23:09:24
Thanks for doing that, and for keeping an eye on the trail, Paul. When I've been there I've seen people walking their dogs etc. It's a convenient route for people living on Pocusset St.
jonawebb
2014-11-12 09:24:43
I just rode this -- it's completely clear now. A city crew must have gone through and cleaned it up. All the trees and branches are gone, including the stuff Paul and I left behind. The leaves and trash have been swept off, too. And the asphalt looks in better condition than I would have expected.
jonawebb
2014-12-31 14:52:15