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Stopped by Police for taking the lane.

I was coming home from the Flock ride riding down Highland Ave. I moved over to make a left onto Stanton when a Police car pulls up to my back wheel tailgating me gets on his bullhorn and says Stay to the side of the road. It startled the cheese and crackers out of me. After I made the turn onto Stanton They pull up next to me and tell me to "stop impeding traffic" then they speed off. I'm making my way halfway up Stanton when the same Police car comes down from the other direction slowing down to give me the stink eye before the speed away again. I don't know how I could of handled an angry officer looking for confrontation, any reasonable tips that will not get me a police stomping.
marvelousm3
2013-04-19 21:35:55
Wow, that really stinks. Police don't usually respond well when they are wrong, so Im glad it didn't escalate, though this sounds like harassment to me. Make sure you use hand signals to give them one less excuse. Would it be worthwhile to place a call to rhe zone commander...describe what happened and say you are calling to clarify "your" understanding of the law?
pseudacris
2013-04-19 22:33:27
Maybe they were late to the doughnut shop? Seriously, I've had similar confrontations with PPD in the past where the cop was clearly ignorant of the law. Tread carefully at your own level of willingness to spend the night in front of a magistrate. And i'm ashamed to mention this, but there is the whole DWB thing too. Sometimes an "ok officer" stings like hell, regardless. Glad you are ok.
marko82
2013-04-19 22:39:01
This is shameful. Unfortunately as a middle aged white guy I have no useful advice for you as to how to avoid a police stomping. Being a middle aged white guy is probably the best method, but this may not be an option. Stay safe.
edmonds59
2013-04-19 22:58:02
I would file a complaint. I had an officer in McCandless try to tell me the same thing on a four lane road right before I pulled into work and I invited him to pull over so I could talk to him. He proceeded to look around in his book of laws, realized he was wrong, still tried to lecture me, and then left with me pretty much standing firm and saying "I'm taking the middle of the lane because it's the safest place for me to be." As for confronting the police, it's hard to say; I'd be wary of doing it if I was by myself and there weren't a lot of witnesses around. Doing it in front of work was kind of safe because the security guards have known me for about five years and (as I figured they would) watched what was going on. Filing the complaint afterwards might still be able to have the effect as confronting them on the street, without the chance of being another victim of police brutality.
sgtjonson
2013-04-19 23:41:35
what pseudacris said...
headloss
2013-04-20 00:05:24
you had Cheese AND Crackers? i knew you were holding out.
pbeaver
2013-04-20 03:46:01
You can submit a complaint via 311. That's what I did when I had an issue with an officer's driving abilities. I had names and vehicle number. Someone from the bureau called me to follow up. Dunno if anything happened after that.
sloaps
2013-04-20 06:04:21
I didn't get names or vehicle number, they never got out the car. I just don't have much to report other than they were rude. I could tell the officer wanted confrontation he had that look in his eyes. I knew I was in the right but I said nothing as to not cause a problem. Calling in wouldn't hurt I just wish I had more information on the officers.
marvelousm3
2013-04-20 07:20:59
There's no way you're going to win a one-on-one with a police officer, whatever "win" means. Survive and get away from the event (in an orderly manner, not escaping lol), get the vehicle number, don't make a show of getting his badge number because if he spots it he's going to escalate so he can arrest you and then he writes the report, gets to subdue you, and gets to send your bike to the property room. Get away from it, write detailed notes, and then become "bigger than one" by asking BikePgh to call the PoliceDept on your behalf. The other part of this that's interesting to me is: were you hauling the trailer back from the Flock ride?
vannever
2013-04-20 10:01:46
Yes I was pulling the trailer, it was dark and him sitting in the car I couldn't see his badge. It happened so fast didn't even think to look for the vehicle number. I didn't want things to escalate so I kept quiet. Also I don't drink so there is no case for a BUI
marvelousm3
2013-04-20 10:36:36
I agree with Vannevar. In the moment, "yes, sir" is never the wrong response. Taking issue with the officer at that moment won't solve anything. Worst case: they find something to cite you for. Best case: you waste ten minutes arguing a point you can't win. Making note of the unit (car) number, and contacting the ZOne Commander as someone suggested earlier in the thread seeking "clarity" on the law is a gentle yet potentially effective way of making the point.
atleastmykidsloveme
2013-04-20 11:25:54
unfortunately my best advice for the emergent situation mirrors bill's. fortunately everyone's advice for following up is also spot on and less likely to result in you getting beat up by a racist dickbag with a badge.
cburch
2013-04-20 12:02:08
Always call the officer(s) "sir" and do not do anything to suggest you're about to bolt. It helps if you act genuinely concerned and try to actively help the officers problem-solve the situation at hand. Surely there was a misunderstanding, quite possibly on your part? Point out that you would never willfully do anything wrong: You're heard that (eg taking the lane) was legal, or even required, under certain situations; wasn't this one of them? Be grateful for this opportunity you have been provided to learn about the law and about your responsibilities as a citizen, and to support the police in their duties. There. Good cyclist! Remember, 1. Most cruisers should have a video camera. If practical, get in front of it. 2. Cruiser numbers or tags are not enough: you need the badge number. Otherwise you will likely be informed that "we don't know which ones they take out". 3. If 3-4 other cops pull up, you were insufficiently submissive. Pull your ears back. Issue appropriate sounds (optionally, roll onto your back). Stay on camera and hope for the best. 4. Tell us (and others) all about your adventure.
ahlir
2013-04-20 12:44:17
That sucks ass, glad you didn't get stomped...
salty
2013-04-20 13:01:59
On a side note, pulling the trailer makes you vulnerable. Try not to ride alone with that thing attached. If I was in the area, I'd offer to ride along.
headloss
2013-04-20 13:04:40
Gah, The above advice is making me sick to my stomach, the bile is coming up in my throat. Although it seems exactly right to address the original question, how to deal without getting a beating. Does nothing to make me "respect" the fucking law.
edmonds59
2013-04-20 13:05:29
So, I'd like to cordially disagree with somebody above, talk about the dog that didn't bark, and then let spill my own personal fears. Never ever get into a discussion of the law or the rules with a cop. Let me take it further: black civilian, white cop, Friday night: no way. This is not a chance for enlightenment, the deck is stacked, you are all-but-screwed the moment he engaged you, say Yes Sir and survive. You got a wife and kid. There is no discussion or understanding or raising consciousness. The dog that didn't bark, the clue we haven't discussed, is the trailer. Here's a possible narrative: You just led a ride around for about an hour pulling that trailer, blocked up some traffic, playing music, blinking lights, and the cops are talking about it over the radio. Or maybe this officer saw you and thought: bunch of jagoffs, but there's a lot of them and I don't need the noise. A little bit later, this cop sees you pulling the Flock trailer alone and he thinks, man a gift from above so he gives you some shit. And now to my own personal fear, and I'm sorry but it's about Race in general and Marcel and Flock in particular. First Flock ride I went to, I said to my friend "Are the thirty of us really going to make the black guy pull the music cart, and do we really leave the only black guy here to take the police heat when they don't like the music?" Because if a cop wants to, pulling a loud non-standard stereo donkey cart through the streets in the evening is disturbing the peace, at least enough to justify hauling the cart-puller in for the night. We should have somebody like me (white, veteran, late-middle-aged, suburban, lawyered-up, career made, nothing at risk) pulling that cart. How does an arrest for public disorderly, disturbing the peace, resisting arrest affect a young black man's chances of getting to a job interview? I've been concerned about that, and I've been chicken-shit to not bring it up. Back to this specific instance: I think it was all about the cart. And never argue or discuss with these guys. No offense intended. I've got nothing but respect for M. I think we put him way out on a limb on these rides and that's unwise. Vannevar.
vannever
2013-04-20 13:34:10
Plenty of other people have pulled that cart and not been harassed by the police.
salty
2013-04-20 13:43:56
Thank God you are okay, Marcel--I am so angry that this happened to you. I like the idea of calling it in. I don't think I would even ask for clarification--you risk getting the wrong answer about the law from whomever answers the phone. I would take the "concerned" approach--this incident is a concern because it doesn't appear to be in line with the current cycling laws. Then, follow up with an email, to establish a paper trail. If this thug with a badge decides to hassle you again, that could be useful. In the meantime, perhaps anyone pulling the trailer on the way back from a Flock ride should have an escort home. Ray and I are always up for helping with that. I shudder to think what more could have happened last night. Horrible.
joanne
2013-04-20 15:28:55
I don't know if race was the problem or the trailer or both. What really scared me was the look in the officers eyes. He wanted a confrontation. He looked angry as if I did something personal to him. I never post about problems being black and riding expensive bikes on here because I don't think the message board is the place for it and I like to think of all of us as fellow cyclist, not caring what race, gender or religion. I have been stopped twice before by police because I was riding bikes that are too nice for people like me and must have been stolen. The last time when my single speed was fairly new they questioned how someone like me came across such an expensive bike. I ended up having to explain my knowledge on the bike, price and the fact that I was wearing clipless shoes before I could go, Also I had to show some ID. I don't want this to turn into a racial discussion and I would like to leave it at that. This message board and the cycling community is the one place where I'm not the black guy I'm just another cyclist and I love that about all of you.
marvelousm3
2013-04-20 17:46:53
"Plenty of other people have pulled that cart and not been harassed by the police" Salty, I believe you may have just proved Vannevar's point with that statement. Think about it. Marcell, first of all I'm very happy that you're ok. Second, I'm horrified at the situation in that you have to fear for your life over something like this. I wish I could do something to magically change our society. I'm ashamed at how slowly progress has been made in that regard. Finally I have to say that your only responsibility is to look out for yourself and your family. You don't need to educate anyone about bike/traffic rules. You don't need to put yourself in a potentially even worse position by engaging someone like that. Be safe.
srpit
2013-04-20 17:59:02
I don't claim to know what happened, but I have read a ton of your posts on here and if you ride like you post, I suspect you are going to have more encounters with all kinds of things on the road in comparison to someone who is more laid back and humble or someone that knows they are as low as you get while riding a bike as far as car drivers are concerned. I only post this to warn you to be safe and indeed, don't ride like you own the road. I assure you, you don't own it and you never are going to prove anything. Best to ride safe and try and avoid problem areas. Ride safely far to the right and don't act like you are all that. You are not. *** remember, this post might save your life. I have a feeling you are riding like you are important to others. That is how you post and I just assume that bleeds into your riding of a bike.
gg
2013-04-20 17:59:38
Also I like to add I've been hauling the trailer around for some time. I'm o.k. with it at times it's difficult getting it up Neville and Stanton but I don't need an escort. It's part of my duty with Flock and I enjoy doing what I do. Don't worry too much about me I'll be o.k.
marvelousm3
2013-04-20 18:01:45
@gg how I ride? Um... I don't think you have any idea how I ride or maybe you misunderstand how I ride.
marvelousm3
2013-04-20 18:03:52
@gg as a board member of Flock I can't say this is how we ride then ride differently myself. I don't filter, I don't run lights or stop signs. I do often take the lane, I don't how riding far to the right is safe.
marvelousm3
2013-04-20 18:10:32
mr marvelous wrote:@gg how I ride? Um… I don’t think you have any idea how I ride or maybe you misunderstand how I ride.
I might indeed misunderstand how you ride, but like I said, I have read a lot of your posts and a self important feel is very evident. Mr. Marvelous. All I am saying is when on a bicycle, you are NOT important in the least. You should be riding as though you are an easy target. If you are trying to show those around you that you have some power by taking up more space or whatever, you are sure to lose that game. Like I clearly stated, I don't know what happened, I am just wondering if you ride like you come off on this forum. I am not sure you do. My point is, please be careful if you are trying to send a message out there on the road. That can be fatal and we don't need more cyclists hit out there.
gg
2013-04-20 18:12:25
mr marvelous wrote:@gg as a board member of Flock I can’t say this is how we ride then ride differently myself. I don’t filter, I don’t run lights or stop signs. I do often take the lane, I don’t how riding far to the right is safe.
If that is the case, I suggest you peruse this matter. There is no room for police to be aggressive towards cyclists and your voice needs to be heard if indeed you were being targeted. Make the call.
gg
2013-04-20 18:14:07
gg; You have completely misinterpreted Mr. M's posts, let me just leave it at that for now. He is one of the members who organizes Flock rides, so Mr. M does have some degree of responsibility to assert what may come across as "importance", as you put it. If you have ridden with Mr. M, you will know that he does not ride as if he "owns the road", which, whether or not you intended it, carries some negative connotations. He rides as any cyclist should, following the rules of the road for vehicles, and asserting their rights as vehicles. I am in a bit of a time crunch here and will assuredly need to add more later, I seriously do not want to inflame things but gg please do attempt to tread here with a bit more care and nuance.
edmonds59
2013-04-20 18:47:17
gg : I disagree. He's a gentleman who sets a very good example for others when he rides. I base my statement on having ridden with him. Have you? Not that anybody's ever disagreed on the internet before, or that I'm any right more than chance would permit.
vannever
2013-04-20 19:23:46
Also, I sincerely apologize for bringing up such matters that I shouldn't have in this forum, and for projecting my own views onto somebody else's topic. Truly. I really do need wisdom.
vannever
2013-04-20 19:28:54
gg "god help us all" if anonymous internet forum posts are any kind of real benchmark of riding/driving/dating/table manners..... it is terrifying to be confronted with corrupt power, no matter what body you inhabit. good on you if you have never had that experience.
pseudacris
2013-04-20 19:37:06
How about one of these on top of the flock trailer? it will attract MORE police, but they will act much friendlier...
pseudacris
2013-04-20 20:06:44
@gg: I have ridden with Mr. Marv. He is as unassuming and humble a person as you will find. If anyone is self-important on this Board, it's me. Now kiss the ring.
atleastmykidsloveme
2013-04-20 20:09:21
Wow. Just to reiterate: Always be nice to the police. We need them. Especially if you end up in a car-bike altercation. What kind of assumptions do you want them to have going in? The key at this point is to get everyone used to the fact that bikes are legal vehicles and have all the consequent rights. Especially the cops.
ahlir
2013-04-20 20:24:01
two words. Go Pro. It is getting to the point where I look at a cyclist without a helmet cam like a cyclist without a bike. Many times I wear mine turned off (mostly because I forget to change out the batteries) but I have seen people start things then notice the helmet cam and suddenly change their minds and get all nice and insist that I go ahead. If I were stopped I would be sure they not only saw me reach up and "turn" the camera on but I would insist that they identify themselves and smile for the camera. What I would like is a camera that records live to the internet thru my phone.
dbacklover
2013-04-20 20:49:05
V, don't apologize too profusely. I accept responsibility as my first response post tee'd the whole thing up. I respecfully appreciate that Mr. M did not wish this to be about race. But it is implicit and inseparable from the subject. So Mr. M., apologies. But I despise the unspoken undercurrent of race issues that continue to be kicked forward in this country. Too many things are unable to be solved until as a country we admit to and attempt to resolve "race". Also I have a serious problem with " authority", especially fascistic power-tripping authority.
edmonds59
2013-04-20 21:01:22
gg wrote:I don’t claim to know what happened, but I have read a ton of your posts on here and if you ride like you post, I suspect you are going to have more encounters with all kinds of things on the road in comparison to someone who is more laid back and humble or someone that knows they are as low as you get while riding a bike as far as car drivers are concerned. I only post this to warn you to be safe and indeed, don’t ride like you own the road. I assure you, you don’t own it and you never are going to prove anything. Best to ride safe and try and avoid problem areas. Ride safely far to the right and don’t act like you are all that. You are not. *** remember, this post might save your life. I have a feeling you are riding like you are important to others. That is how you post and I just assume that bleeds into your riding of a bike.
gg: While somewhere in in here you show off-handed concern for Mr M, if I follow your logic that "we ride as we post", I hope I never find myself in the road with you ever as a cyclist, and even less if you own a car driving on the road. I'm just gonna leave it at that.....
bikeygirl
2013-04-21 05:24:04
GG: Putting the first comment up to 'call someone out' as self important is just kind of screwed up, that is just a dick move man.
benzo
2013-04-21 13:56:44
I don't think GG is very smart. Marcel, I am sorry these things have happened to you. I sometimes forget how crappy the world is. And btw, I would never call a cop sir. I call no one sir.
stefb
2013-04-21 17:13:33
We all read a tone into posts and the poster from time to time. It's just human to try and read a message board as a real conversation. But you're really only getting about 20%. You don't know someone till you... actually know them. So I think if we can tone down on the touchiness, both in initial response, and in meta-response, that's best. I absolutely call police officers "officer" and follow their script, not because I'm happy or think they're right, but because I've had one experience with a very jumpy police officer and don't care to have a repeat. YMMV. I do like the idea of recording, however.
byogman
2013-04-21 19:28:09
I've been pulled over by police 4 times in my driving career, twice in Erie after 3 am on my way to my bagel shop job. Pull over, blinkers on, car turned off, radio turned off, hands on the wheel, yes sir, no sir, thank you sir. Never got a ticket but then again I am white. I can't say I was as respectful when a cop gave me shit when I was on a bike or when I was skateboarding but I agree. You're never going to win an argument with a cop.
rsprake
2013-04-22 12:13:29
If it helps, always try to see all sides. Some cops are a-holes, no question. Some are just doing their job. Sometimes it's a combination of the two. We are still in the wake of what happened in Boston, so perhaps the trailer did in fact attract unwanted attention this time. Be polite, keep your cool, accept when you are caught in the wrong, and file a formal complaint when you are not. I accept when I'm wrong and face the music; this has always helped resolve the confrontation quickly and usually includes the policeman cutting me some slack. I was bullied by a cop on two occasions and challenged both in front of a judge. In one case, the judge practically laughed the abusive cop out of his office. In another case, the cop was buddys with the judge and I got no where despite the cop accidentally admitting that it was in fact entrapment.
headloss
2013-04-22 12:28:18
^ and I've had a cop flat out lie in front of a judge (traffic case). I was also a juror on a murder trial once and I think the most dangerous place to be in our society is "actually being innocent" within the court system. Stay safe, playing by their rules is better than getting stomped or worse.
marko82
2013-04-22 12:52:35
TIL about the Dunning Kruger Effect from Stu, and it explains most of the Internet threads I've ever read.
vannever
2013-04-22 12:56:36
Absolutely.
edmonds59
2013-04-22 13:00:19
"TIL about the Dunning Kruger Effect from Stu, and it explains most of the Internet threads I’ve ever read." This could make these forums quite confusing to new members when they're getting conflicting information from people who may be overly competent, but humble, or incompetent, but overly sure of themselves FWIW, I'm generally not a fan of the cops around here and they do a pretty good job of brutalizing the black population; I've heard bad stuff about suburb cops too, but one PBP cop did give me and my bike a ride home after my hit and run Also, who got to ride the cop bikes and play with the sirens? I'm thinking Lucia
sgtjonson
2013-04-22 15:46:16
Pierce wrote:Also, who got to ride the cop bikes and play with the sirens? I’m thinking Lucia
Nope, not me! It was probably someone else. So far I've never had to ride on any cop-form of transportation of any sort, either on-purpose or due to my-badyness :)
bikeygirl
2013-04-22 16:05:12
I'm thinking about forming a punk band called Metacognitive Inability. Anybody interested in joining, please PM me. No skills necessary. We are going to be so f*cking awesome.
atleastmykidsloveme
2013-04-22 16:29:59
Need a theremin player?
byogman
2013-04-22 17:05:03
dbacklover wrote:two words. Go Pro. It is getting to the point where I look at a cyclist without a helmet cam like a cyclist without a bike. Many times I wear mine turned off (mostly because I forget to change out the batteries) but I have seen people start things then notice the helmet cam and suddenly change their minds and get all nice and insist that I go ahead.
I didn't mean to offend, but I have concern for those cycling in the middle of the road when not needed trying to prove a point. I witness this now and again and believe me those folks are the ones that will get hit. If they get hit and survive they almost feel as though it is a status. I already said, I don't know the OP, but I may have ridden with him without knowing who he is. Anyway, the reason I am responding with this quote is because it is something that came to mind. If the OP had a helmet cam things might go a little differently. I am not sure, but maybe. I really am not sure I want to get all involved with a helmet cam, but I must say it might be what everyone does at some point. It could be very valuable in more ways than one. To the OP: If you feel wronged, I suggest you at least call. I have called the police regarding something I felt was handled poorly. They were VERY nice to me on the phone regarding the matter. Nothing wrong with at least saying something. Safe riding to all.
gg
2013-04-22 17:26:47
"I didn’t mean to offend, but I have concern for those cycling in the middle of the road when not needed trying to prove a point. I witness this now and again and believe me those folks are the ones that will get hit. If they get hit and survive they almost feel as though it is a status." We're cycling in the middle of the road because it is safer. http://cyclingsavvy.org/hows-my-driving/ Here's my car-hit record: -left-hooked from oncoming sedan -in the middle of the road at stop light, behind tractor trailer, SUV purposefully bumps me -filtering, sideswiped by bus * - on the side of the road, sideswiped by car - filtering, car made an unsignaled right-hand turn into me* *dangerous, wouldn't ever do with a bus, would do very slowly with a car So three of my five collisions could have been potentially avoided by staying in the middle of the road People don't get hit because they're in the middle of the road. They get hit because drivers are fucking negligent and aren't paying attention to what's right in front of them A lady two days ago completely failed to yield turning right from 5th Ave to Penn and would have slammed into us at about 30 mph if we didn't change lanes; she was looking down at her goddamn cell phone; if I was on my bike I could have been another Penn Ave fatality Take your victim blaming to some Post Gazette article comment section
sgtjonson
2013-04-22 18:24:26
Pierce wrote: Here’s my car-hit record: -left-hooked from oncoming sedan -in the middle of the road at stop light, behind tractor trailer, SUV purposefully bumps me -filtering, sideswiped by bus * - on the side of the road, sideswiped by car - filtering, car made an unsignaled right-hand turn into me*
Here is my hit and run record with 25+ years of riding in the city. 0 I think I will keep my style, but thanks. Wish you well trusting people in 3,000 + lb vehicles while they are texting, drunk, on drugs, looking at Youtube, putting on lipstick, eating Big Macs, picking up a french fry off the floor and whatever else selfish people are doing while driving. I have a mirror that has saved me plenty due to my inherent distrust for others. Almost was killed on the Highland Park Bridge after midnight once on my way home from work and my mirror saved me, but I was still very lucky and will never have that situation again. Feel free to take your lane and hope people see you or you don't frustrate some nutcase to the point they hit you for the heck of it. No thanks. They win. I ride accordingly and am ready to bail at any given time. I am no match for the big vehicles. They know it and so do I. On top of that very little is done if you get killed by someone in a car. What about that guy training for the MS150 riding on Harts Run Road in the morning on the way to work? What happened to the driver that killed that guy? Not much. Look, my point is simple. Just be careful. We are at a huge disadvantage and all these hit and runs that are on the news are hurting the growth of cycling in our region. The media will make people too afraid. Pierce, it doesn't surprise me you have had issues on the road. Your style of posting is filled with self importance. That and cycling isn't usually a good combination. Hope you ride smarter than you type.
gg
2013-04-22 18:57:24
My point exactly. Thank you.
vannever
2013-04-22 19:02:07
Vannevar wrote:My point exactly. Thank you.
You're welcome.
gg
2013-04-22 19:03:03
I may or may not have rode a Pittsburgh Police bicycle [I'm pretty sure if they aren't allowed to let civilian ride them]. It was horrible. I've also driven cop cars and know a fair amount of law enforcement officers. I've been pulled over 29 times in the past ten years and have had at least a dozen of none-traffic stop interactions with cops. Some of them are professional, and some of them are far from--especially when it comes to bicycles or black people. Without going on a rant, I'll just say that if there were any truly good cops there wouldn't be any bad cops. Though it's probably pointless, I also recommend filing a formal complaint. The biggest problem and the greatest strength is the brotherhood around the job. Just keep in mind that when filing a complaint, you are complaining to one of the brothers. Even with video evidence, even if they would have continued to harass you, even if they would have assaulted you, you will never get an acknowledgement of wrong doing. Years ago I went to file a complaint about an officer who repeated cursed at me and spit in my face and I was told that if I wanted of file a complaint I could, but "[they] would make [my] life miserable". I think the real strategy here would be to make sure that BikePGH and the city [Stephen Patchen] are aware of the race issues around cycling in the city. To me, this brings to light an obvious issue around making Pittsburgh a more bike friendly city that [to my knowledge] no one has brought to light.
ndromb
2013-04-22 19:05:00
Here is my hit and run record with 25+ years of riding in the city. 0
Guess what this means? It means you're lucky. Otherwise, it means literally nothing.
rubberfactory
2013-04-22 19:07:50
Nick D wrote: I’ve been pulled over 29 times in the past ten years and have had at least a dozen of none-traffic stop interactions with cops. Some of them are professional, and some of them are far from–especially when it comes to bicycles or black people.
29 times in 10 years? I think that is really a crazy high number! I don't think I would have the same view of cops if I was pulled over that many times. Were any of those times deserved or is it more random?
gg
2013-04-22 19:15:30
Erica wrote:
Guess what this means? It means you’re lucky. Otherwise, it means literally nothing.
I feel that for the most part we make our own so-called luck. I would agree to a point though. I just ride expecting the worst out of the morons on the road. I certainly wouldn't ride without a mirror watching what is behind me. No way would I trust people like I see so many do. IMHO, you folks trusting drivers are pretty crazy!
gg
2013-04-22 19:21:59
Look my point was more out of concern for cyclists. I watch some pretty risky moves out there. I really don't want to read about some cyclist being hit. Just be careful is all. That is all I am saying. There is NO status for being hit by a car. None!
gg
2013-04-22 19:26:50
"Here is my hit and run record with 25+ years of riding in the city." My hit and run record is zero too. But how many miles have you put in and on what streets? "What about that guy training for the MS150 riding on Harts Run Road in the morning on the way to work? What happened to the driver that killed that guy? Not much." And guess where he was riding on the road? You're more visible in the middle than on the side. I don't think I've heard of too many stories of people saving themselves by riding off into the bushes Point taken on safety, but our vision of what is and isn't safe doesn't match. Bicycle orgs side with safety being in the middle.
sgtjonson
2013-04-22 19:36:52
Pierce wrote:“ Point taken on safety, but our vision of what is and isn’t safe doesn’t match.
Correct. We also will never agree on style. Stay safe.
gg
2013-04-22 19:46:10
I'm sure it's easy to say "we make our own so-called luck" if you've never been hit - maybe you should ask the people who have been hit while doing absolutely nothing wrong how they feel about that. I don't trust drivers either but I think you're kidding yourself if you think that's enough to prevent you from being hit - you can ride as defensively as you want and still end up dead or injured. FWIW, I've never been hit either aside from getting hit by a side mirror in 1993 or so, I don't count that because I didn't get knocked down or get hurt. But I certainly don't believe that's due to some superior awareness or riding skills on my part.
salty
2013-04-22 20:20:08
@gg It is interesting you make a comment calling mr marv "self important". It sound as if you are quick to judge someone you know nothing about. Maybe it is because of the article written about him saying how nice of a guy he is, or the fact that he volunteers his time to give back to the cycling community asking for nothing in return. Maybe you don't like his screen name Mr Marvelous that was giving to him by the young kids he mentored in the youth group he volunteered for. Or the fact that he worked in the Rainbow Kitchen in Homestead till it closed it's doors. Maybe it's because he doesn't ever use profanity or never ever disrespects women. Or the fact he choose to work in oncology because he has a heart for it. No he is not self important he gives away from himself everyday, the way I see it he's not more important than anyone except for you gg.
mrs-marvelous
2013-04-22 20:22:30
I said earlier there's generally not much point trying to reach a rider who's laid down their riding style over years, but gg, I'll give it one go. One of the great things about riding with a mirror is how easily you can actually see the benefits of making yourself highly visible and claiming the the lane. While riding a multi-lane road, especially one with a long distance between lights where cars want to zoom, you can tell how early most see you because they'll soon start signaling or moving over to the next lane. Up until the max-out point, where you're blinky is pointing straight into the driver's eye in the lane behind you, you can also see a correlation between how far left you ride and how far back that lane change happens. Now obviously, you need to be physically well lit if it's dark or dusk, and the motorists need to be metaphorically not for this to be an advisable experiment, but that's true regardless of riding style.
byogman
2013-04-22 20:26:59
@gg: some of them were deserved from things like speeding on interstates. However many of them were profiling though--either I, a passenger, or the vehicle I was traveling in "didn't look from around [t]here". One of them was on a bicycle during the G20. They said they pulled me over for not having lights--which I did--and then they questioned me about some punk house in Polish Hill that they later raided. Many of my non-traffic stop interactions were collisions--bicycle, motorcycle, automobile. I think you have enough of those, you really start to see some disturbing patterns in how police handle. I really think the only people who have positive views on the level of professionalism with police either have little or no experience with them or have FOP/Thin Blue Line stickers on their cars. As far as the relationship of riding skill/knowledge to getting hit goes, I've been hit three times on a bicycle--sustained injuries once--and I have taken several classes on driving cars, motorcycles, and bicycles safely. I think if you do anything enough, no matter how safe and cautious you are, you will eventually have wreck.
ndromb
2013-04-22 20:55:52
@ gg ...if you ride like you post ... You might want to meditate on that a bit before you post.
mick
2013-04-22 21:56:14
mrs. marvelous wrote:@gg It is interesting you make a comment calling mr marv “self important”. It sound as if you are quick to judge someone you know nothing about. Maybe it is because of the article written about him saying how nice of a guy he is, or the fact that he volunteers his time to give back to the cycling community asking for nothing in return. Maybe you don’t like his screen name Mr Marvelous that was giving to him by the young kids he mentored in the youth group he volunteered for. Or the fact that he worked in the Rainbow Kitchen in Homestead till it closed it’s doors. Maybe it’s because he doesn’t ever use profanity or never ever disrespects women. Or the fact he choose to work in oncology because he has a heart for it. No he is not self important he gives away from himself everyday, the way I see it he’s not more important than anyone except for you gg.
Bravo.....
bikeygirl
2013-04-22 22:02:35
gg wroteLook, my point is simple. Just be careful. ....all these hit and runs are hurting the growth of cycling in our region... Pierce, it doesn’t surprise me you have had issues on the road. Your style of posting is filled with self importance. That and cycling isn’t usually a good combination. Hope you ride smarter than you type.
V wroteMy point exactly. Thank you.
gg wrote:You’re welcome.
I was talking about demonstrating the Dunning-Kruger effect.
vannever
2013-04-22 22:21:49
@gg... No, nothing to add. I think this horse has been kicked enough already.
headloss
2013-04-22 22:33:06
you should maybe go back to blaming Danny Chew and the Dirty Dozen for the "chu" tags around town. that made way more sense than the idiotic drivel you are spewing about Marcel and cycling in general in this thread. also, you might be interested in one of these:
cburch
2013-04-23 06:57:08
Based on my observations, having ridden with both gg and Mr.M, I find gg to be more of a risk taker, while Marcel is more cautious / careful. That said, from Title 75 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes Chapter 35 - SPECIAL VEHICLES AND PEDESTRIANS Subchapter A - Operation of Pedalcycles (Bicycles) " 3301(b). Vehicle proceeding at less than normal speed. Upon all roadways, any vehicles proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place under the conditions than existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into an alley, private road or driveway." The "as close as practicable" part is where the police officer will win every time, as it is open to his / her interpretation as a public safety officer. Marcel, if you had Ke$ha playing on the boombox at the time, I might understand why the officer was hassling you! ;)
ericf
2013-04-23 07:58:33
I knew this thread would end up exactly like this. Was just wondering if people would think about riding safe and realizing cars/suvs/pickups have won and will always win. The sooner you know it the better. Ericf, you wouldn't understand my riding because I wear a mirror and you don't. If you don't know what is behind you, then you wouldn't not understand why I do what I do, but you did owe me one from an old comment I made about you. Nicely done. I do got through red lights at certain times if I can get out of harms way and not interfere with anyone. It is common sense and even Idaho understands it. Also, at 4:00AM I am along for the most part on the road. Do you really feel I should sit at a red-light hoping the sensor detects me freezing my butt off in the snow with not a car in sight from any direction? I said my peace here. An 8 year old was hit yesterday. That is a much more important issue and makes me sick. If the police harassed the OP, then make the call or start wearing a cam to record the issue. For some reason you provoked the police. We are only hearing one side and don't know why the police decided to tell you to move over due to you impeding traffic. Let the childish feeding frenzy begin. We are one, the Borg.
gg
2013-04-23 08:17:14
re: ” 3301(b). Vehicle proceeding at less than normal speed. Upon all roadways, any vehicles proceeding at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place under the conditions than existing shall be driven in the right-hand lane then available for traffic, or as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except when overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction or when preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into an alley, private road or driveway.” That's so weird, none of the hundred cars that were backed up from the West End Circle up Noblestown got over to the right so's I could pass them!?! Oh, well, fk 'em. Passed 'em anyway. FWIW, gg, I thought your recent posts remained well tempered and reasonable, I said my bit a while ago and I'm done with the piling on. At some point everyone needs to find their own ways to stay safe, within reason. I don't necessarily ride by the book 100%. As far as I'm concerned every moment of every ride requires individual evaluation by the rider and adaptation for survival. 1 time out of 100 the rule book can get you killed.
edmonds59
2013-04-23 08:35:54
gg wrote:For some reason you provoked the police.
Not necessarily so. There is no evidence of this and thus the many different opinions expressed here. Unless you walk a mile in a man's moccasins... Edit: let's agree to disagree on what "safe" riding is - and please just be safe to the best of your ability.
marko82
2013-04-23 08:38:22
ericf - "except when preparing to make a left turn" which is exactly what Mr. M was doing. And in any case the cop's interpretation of "as close as practicable" is not the only one that counts. gg - I hope your magic mirror continues to protect you. If only it was that simple.
salty
2013-04-23 08:38:36
edmonds59 wrote:As far as I’m concerned every moment of every ride requires individual evaluation by the rider and adaptation for survival. 1 time out of 100 the rule book can get you killed.
+1
ka_jun
2013-04-23 09:00:03
can't always count on a mirror - I use one constantly, but if my pannier is packed full, it completely blocks my mirror view. Even when it doesn't, it's best to look behind you a lot, too, so the drivers KNOW you're aware of them.
rubberfactory
2013-04-23 09:00:15
Nick D wrote:@gg: some of them were deserved from things like speeding on interstates. However many of them were profiling though–either I, a passenger, or the vehicle I was traveling in “didn’t look from around [t]here”. One of them was on a bicycle during the G20. They said they pulled me over for not having lights–which I did–and then they questioned me about some punk house in Polish Hill that they later raided. Many of my non-traffic stop interactions were collisions–bicycle, motorcycle, automobile. I think you have enough of those, you really start to see some disturbing patterns in how police handle. I really think the only people who have positive views on the level of professionalism with police either have little or no experience with them or have FOP/Thin Blue Line stickers on their cars. As far as the relationship of riding skill/knowledge to getting hit goes, I’ve been hit three times on a bicycle–sustained injuries once–and I have taken several classes on driving cars, motorcycles, and bicycles safely. I think if you do anything enough, no matter how safe and cautious you are, you will eventually have wreck.
I would like to hear more about all this, but that is better suited in person. Our paths may cross someday and I hope you don't mind me asking some questions to better understand what you deal with while cycling. As far as eventually having a wreck, that may very well be true. I hope not, but maybe it is what it is. I am back to riding my fixed and I know it has a little more danger than my other bike. Has a little bit of a crossover issue with the pedals and being a fixed there are slight disadvantages if you have to avoid something in a split second, but it is just so fun to ride and so quick. Is it dumb to ride it? Maybe, but I can't help myself, it is just too fun. Wishing everyone the best.
gg
2013-04-23 09:29:16
@gg, I'm not a hard person to get a hold of. You are welcome to come by Fiks:Reflective anytime.
ndromb
2013-04-23 11:41:09
Sorry folks, I've been away for a bit so I may be missing some subtext. Is gg's argument that the people posting running the flock and posting daily to a bike advocacy board... that these people who have cited scientific studies about bike safety, as well as parts of PA state law... that these people don't think about safety enough?
myddrin
2013-04-23 12:36:38
and that marcel is "self important"
cburch
2013-04-23 15:14:15
Alright then... Please proceed Govenor
myddrin
2013-04-23 15:31:34
Nick D wrote:@gg, I’m not a hard person to get a hold of. You are welcome to come by Fiks:Reflective anytime.
Thanks. It may help me understand walking in other's shoes better and that is always a good thing.
gg
2013-04-24 07:54:46
myddrin wrote:Alright then… Please proceed Govenor
HAHAHHAHAH I'm completely in love with "The IT Crowd" show! Wish it would have had more Richmond, though :)
bikeygirl
2013-04-24 22:29:14
I didn’t intend for this tread to take the negative turn it did. My goal was only to share my experience on that night riding home. In this tread people asked me direct questions and I will answer them. I was riding home about 10P.Mish, I was pulling the trailer with the music off. It was late and I didn’t want the music to disturb anyone who goes to bed as early as I go to bed. Traffic was light. I remember thinking only 4-5 cars passed me from Penn-Circle to Stanton Ave. I was not taking the whole lane till I got near the intersection of Highland and Stanton. I was riding inline with the sharrows on Highland, giving me plenty of space away from the curb but also allowing cars to pass at a very safe distance, and the fact that traffic was so light I could have taken the lane and still cars should not have had a problem passing. I don’t know how long the Police were following me but they were far enough back that I could move over safely to make a left turn even hauling the trailer. I made the turn and that when I could hear the engine of the Police car rev as it speed up to ride inches from the trailer. That part of Stanton was narrow and had parked cars along the road no place to pull over but there was no other traffic so whoever was tailgating me could have easily passed. The Police got on their speaker and told me to move to the side. There was really no place to move with parked cars, they moved to the side of me while we both were still moving. The look in the driver’s eyes was pure rage. His partner had a look of irritation. The driver shouted stop impeding traffic. He waited for my response. His eyes looked as if he dared me to say one word. He was ready for action. I said nothing did nothing but nod my head as if saying I will comply. The Police car then accelerated fast out of sight. I started making my way up Stanton and the same Police car was coming down Stanton in the opposite direction. They stop across from me and say nothing, just give me the evil eye till I pedal out of their view. I know more questions were asked and I will answer them I'm answering things one question at a time.
marvelousm3
2013-04-26 09:32:39
@mr marvelous, My best advice is to be as humble as you possibly can. Use "sir" or "ma'am" and do not argue with them. The time to argue is when you are in front of a judge, not with the cops on the side of the road. If you ever find yourself in a situation where the cops are making a report, make sure you say your piece before the pen hits the paper. Once the report is written, it will be one of the only things the Judge will pay attention to in court. If you feel intimidated by the cops, helmet cam is the best way to go.
ericf
2013-04-26 09:55:49
you can also stop, get up on the sidewalk and call 911 and ask for a police supervisor. Just be aware that the cop you are having trouble with may indeed be the supervisor. Power sometimes corrupts. Stay safe, keep your head down.
marko82
2013-04-26 10:32:30
"I didn’t intend for this tread to take the negative turn it did. My goal was only to share my experience on that night riding home." There's no negativity you brought to the conversation and I hope you're not regretting bringing the matter up because of a branch to the conversation you had no control over. You brought up something that you should not have faced and were right to do so.
byogman
2013-04-26 11:04:06
I also posted about being stopped twice before because my bikes were too expensive for someone like me. This indeed happened in fact it has happened more than twice but two occasions I felt afraid. The “real” reason I wear spandex when I ride is not because of comfort but so that I look the part. When I wear my Sean John Blue Jeans and a sweatshirt I don’t look like someone who should own a $2,000 bike and I end up being stopped by the police. I have only been stopped when I don’t have my cycling clothing on. Often the question is the same. “Where did you find such an expensive bike?”. Someone mentioned to me this is a VERY big deal in establishing a divers cycling population and I should talk more about it. They are right it is a big deal, but please let me explain why I haven’t talked more about it. First it’s not a cycling problem. I am almost 40yo I have been dealing with situations like this my entire life. My first car was an Audi. Being young black and driving an Audi caused me lots of problems. I was pulled over weekly for suspicion of driving a stolen car or for selling drugs to finance the car. I sold that car after 6 months of buying it after on Route 30 an officer had me on the ground at gunpoint. After that I have only bought Subaru’s still I get pulled over not nearly as much, one Plum officer told me Blacks don’t drive Subaru’s. I have been told to leave stores; I have been told my kind isn’t welcome here in a variety of places. So does racism exists yes, is it a cycling problem, no. It’s a Pittsburgh problem. I joined the message board because this is the one place I feel comfortable, “safe”. Almost all of you have treated me as simply another cyclist. The fact that I am the President of Flock of Cycles is proof how awesome you all are. That is one reason I never bring race up, because it doesn’t seem to matter here. Now lastly comments about me being self-important. Is it true I don’t know? If I am I apologize. I have posted stupid things on the board, and I have apologized to individuals in person or through PM’s. Am I really the nice guy everyone says I am? I really, really want to be. I care deeply about the cycling community. I want to do my part. I want you all to know that I joined Flock not to brag, or promote myself, but because I truly care. Let me take one moment and not be nice, gg’s comments in my opinion are unnecessary, and hurtful. He is a bully and I have never backed down from bullies. He makes comments only to cause trouble and controversy. His comments only show how limited his education is. He is not the only one I have stood up to. “Hcurtis” his racist rants eventually got him banned, and “Val” who only post not to better the community but to tear it down with insults, and if you ever read “Val’s" twitter account it is filled with so much hate and racism it is terrifying. Maybe taking a stand against them has worked against me, hurt my image I don’t know. All I do know is I am thankful for the way this Board treats me and I love all of you.
marvelousm3
2013-04-26 13:04:11
I dont' know about "self improtant." Mr Marvelous is important. (To me at least. My sense is to a whole flock of people.)
mick
2013-04-26 13:08:47
Mick wrote:I dont’ know about “self improtant.” Mr Marvelous is important. (To me at least. My sense is to a whole flock of people.)
not just to flock people! he's a great friend and i don't exactly give out the "friend" title willy nilly.
cburch
2013-04-26 15:27:27
mr marvelous wrote:All I do know is I am thankful for the way this Board treats me and I love all of you.
Love you back, POTFOC :) And srly, I'm sorry to hear of all the race-related bullshit you've had to deal with. I've had some weird instances where due to race-related situations I've been in uncomfortable situations, but nothing close to what you've experienced. While I agree and I like that as cyclists, and here as members of the board, race & gender don't (or shouldn't) be an issue; I do-take issue that out in the streets, it does. Because if in this City of Pittsburgh, we are promoting that Pittsburgh is a Cycling City, that means for everyone who rides in its streets and parks. But if certain demographics are treated differently by the City ; then I'm not very happy about it.
bikeygirl
2013-04-26 15:54:47
The world would be a better place with more people like mr marvelous. And also mrs marvelous, too. Just fwiw, going to the curb and pulling out a cellphone in the dark will get a brother shot. Peace out.
vannever
2013-04-26 16:54:18
cburch wrote:he’s a great friend and i don’t exactly give out the “friend” title willy nilly.
Vannevar wrote:The world would be a better place with more people like mr marvelous.
+infinity
2013-04-26 18:17:35
I'm going to step in here to just slightly to defend gg. I don't know him (presuming him), but at least just from rereading this thread I don't get the sense he's a bully. Deserving of jump to conclusions mat honor? Sure! Both in his assessment of mr. marvelous, or the presumption that his wreck-with-car free record means that other riding styles are somehow asking for it. I think he's also naively optimistic about police, again from his own experience. But look, we all jump to conclusions sometimes. And I do like when I don't have to read between the lines to see what's really on someone's mind. And from the first, most objectively content free bit... the judging of Mr. Marv, he backed off in what, 15 minutes? The piling on was a bit much, honestly. Differences of opinion about riding style aren't things that need to squashed even if they're presented in a pretty tone deaf way. And different assumptions don't make someone a bad person. We DO need to lighten up a little here.
byogman
2013-04-26 19:05:31
@byogman, +1 @mr marvelous, I don't really know you, but I have met you on a few flocks. You have always been a gentleman, and as I stated earlier, your road manners are impeccable as well. That said, take what you read on the internet (present crowd included) with a grain of salt. People are people, this stuff is just ones and zeroes (sometimes more zeroes than ones). BTW, If you wanna talk self important, check this dude:
mrosswog wrote:There’s something to be said about donating web development to a charitable cause, but there’s also something called “do something well or don’t do it at all”. I’m a web developer… I would know. I’ve made plenty of mistakes in my time. Perhaps it’s time for bikepgh to hire someone (not me – I just want to use the site) who is going to be able to support the online community they are attempting to build. First off, the search function isn’t working. I’m trying to post in the Hilly Billy Roubaix thread and the only way I can find it is through google search. Since I wasn’t logged in (I can’t tell you how many countless times I’ve logged into this thing), I got myself logged in and was redirected to the bikepgh.org home page, not back to where I was. So here I am, needing to leave the site again to search for the thread I wanted to post in. I figured, just page through the message board and find it that way – it’s not too old. But when paging through the board from the bikepgh.org/mb page, you are then moved into the “advocacy and safety” forum page two which has threads that are over a year old. This web board could be a great resource, if it was usable. There are plenty of fully functional, open source web forums out there – why they’ve chosen this one baffles me. Forget about the cutesy graphics and focus on usability, because right now, this site is barely functioning. The low amount of forum traffic should be an indicator of this. On another note, I have mind to start a new message board altogether and one that focuses more on riding and racing bikes, which is what I want to chat about on a cycling message board. Not wasting my time calling attention to issues that should have been QA’ed before rolling out the new site. Rant over.
ericf
2013-04-26 19:30:06
mr marvelous wrote:I didn’t intend for this tread to take the negative turn it did. My goal was only to share my experience on that night riding home. In this tread people asked me direct questions and I will answer them. I was riding home about 10P.Mish, I was pulling the trailer with the music off. It was late and I didn’t want the music to disturb anyone who goes to bed as early as I go to bed. Traffic was light. I remember thinking only 4-5 cars passed me from Penn-Circle to Stanton Ave. I was not taking the whole lane till I got near the intersection of Highland and Stanton. I was riding inline with the sharrows on Highland, giving me plenty of space away from the curb but also allowing cars to pass at a very safe distance, and the fact that traffic was so light I could have taken the lane and still cars should not have had a problem passing. I don’t know how long the Police were following me but they were far enough back that I could move over safely to make a left turn even hauling the trailer. I made the turn and that when I could hear the engine of the Police car rev as it speed up to ride inches from the trailer. That part of Stanton was narrow and had parked cars along the road no place to pull over but there was no other traffic so whoever was tailgating me could have easily passed. The Police got on their speaker and told me to move to the side. There was really no place to move with parked cars, they moved to the side of me while we both were still moving. The look in the driver’s eyes was pure rage. His partner had a look of irritation. The driver shouted stop impeding traffic. He waited for my response. His eyes looked as if he dared me to say one word. He was ready for action. I said nothing did nothing but nod my head as if saying I will comply. The Police car then accelerated fast out of sight. I started making my way up Stanton and the same Police car was coming down Stanton in the opposite direction. They stop across from me and say nothing, just give me the evil eye till I pedal out of their view. I know more questions were asked and I will answer them I’m answering things one question at a time.
Good post. This is what we needed to understand. Wish I was a witness. I would have had your back more than you know.
gg
2013-04-26 20:16:24
@gg - Thank you for seeing the light. I sensed that that was what occurred, though he didn't go into that level of detail in his earlier posts. I guess it helps to know Mr Marv personally well enough to read a degree of detail into his written words -- plus I run into him fairly often. And the several of us who also know him well also read that same unspoken detail in. I, too, am aghast that we have such a both wide and deep level of racism still in our society, including those whose job is to defend and protect. One other thing: Please refrain from quoting whole passages, especially if only to add a couple of lines. Or is this a phone-specific limitation? I'm on a laptop, with full access to HTML, editing posts, etc.; I don't know how the board works on iPads, etc.
stuinmccandless
2013-04-26 20:40:11
Nope. It's. PEBKAC error.
cburch
2013-04-26 21:08:37
@ericf except, he's right. I have mostly avoided getting into it on the board since I also do web work for bike pgh but watching the whole thing play out from the sidelines has been pretty much a textbook case of what not to do when rolling out a major site upgrade. In short there is a right way to do development, no matter the size of the team. And you don't ship broken product. Also, pulling the "but it was just pro bono work" or "it's the clients fault" card is armature hour stuff. Pride in work shouldn't require a paycheck.
cburch
2013-04-26 21:17:40
@cburch, The only pronouns @mrosswog used in his rant were "I" and "me", which is a textbook definition of self-important.
ericf
2013-04-26 21:25:23
Same could be said for Marv's original post though. If you want to argue semantics.
cburch
2013-04-26 21:30:12
True. Maybe it's just @mrosswog 's tone, it is all wrong.
ericf
2013-04-26 21:34:32
i think your reading too much into the tone honestly. i know mike from way back. he's definitely not a conceited jerk. dont GASP, pull a "gg" dude! dont hit me.
cburch
2013-04-26 23:17:48
"self-important" pfffft... I have no filter, If I thought you had a bad attitude I would have already said as much. Don't dwell on hurtful words from strangers. There are a few people who have a problem, not with you alone, but with all of us that post regularly and yet manage to get along (even when we disagree). Some people would rather point fingers at the "in-crowd" as if we are somehow being selective rather than taking a moment to realize that the only person pushing them "out" is themselves. It's not hard to be respectful and supportive, some people simply choose not to. The trick is to remember that sarcasm doesn't translate well in written form. Some people read into comments the wrong way, forgetting this. That's not a fault on their part, either... it's just a fact of communication.
headloss
2013-04-27 00:38:58
@cburch, Point taken. And he is right.
ericf
2013-04-27 06:26:35
Jeebus Crisp, that was kind of like coming in on the second season of Lost. And I don't even know what that means. Once again things have gone completely ass over handlebars away from an important and salient point. Having Mr. Marv share experiences from his POV is invaluable to me. That is why I come to a communication medium such as this, to get outside my own brain and connect with other peoples experiences. I could actually give a shit less about gear inches or heart rate, or whatever, there are other cycling internet places to go for that, have at it. I like to hear what others are experiencing, and think about if there is anything that I can do to facilitate that experience. The shit that Mr. Marv has had to deal with just to RIDE, it's shameful. Some people may not be aware, or even deny, that these things happen in the United States in 2013. Please wake up. Mr. Marv is a wonderful person, one of many, and I consider myself extremely lucky to be able to communicate with great bikey people on some level thanks to this common interest. This is how we will end the shit he describes, find a common passion and discover that we are more alike than different. Thinking about the things described earlier makes the things I have to deal with on the road seem insignificant. Sometimes you just have to HTFU and keep riding. And what V said.
edmonds59
2013-04-27 08:33:42
edmonds59 (who is wise) wrote: Having Mr. Marv share experiences from his POV is invaluable to me. That is why I come to a communication medium such as this, to get outside my own brain and connect with other peoples experiences. . . . . I like to hear what others are experiencing, and think about if there is anything that I can do to facilitate that experience. . . . . . This is how we will end the shit he describes, find a common passion and discover that we are more alike than different.
edmonds59, you are my teacher. I'd like to riff on the why-I-come-here theme, even though that's another wide deviation on the topic, and then bring it home. I started to come here for local information on Pgh urban riding. For instance, the Montour Trail Yahoo group keeps me informed about what's happening out there. You guys are another info-source. I continued to come here because 95% of the posters are kicking it meta and doing more than that. At this late stage in my game, I'm trying to overcome entropy and homophily *, and my BikePgh presence has introduced me to good people I wouldn't have met otherwise and I am really grateful for that. This thread points out that people who share the same streets and highways have a completely different experience on top of that common tarmac and have very different survival rules, and that is just a tremendously valuable discussion. I have it much easier in America than a lot of people. I am really glad M.Marv brought this up. There's not many bike-forums that delve into topics like this, and for me the benefits of that discourse exceeds the noise of a few fools and the 1st-world kvetch of a bad interface. My compliments to all.
vannever
2013-04-27 10:16:50
@edmonds, I agree... I just took a lot of it to PM. But, truly, it's shocking to hear this in 2013!
headloss
2013-04-27 11:32:08
@byogman I agree with your defense of gg, I think I took his comments a little too personal. It was the timing I think. I think gg inadvertently proved a point. Judging someone without knowing the person and assuming they are doing something or are something that they are not. Thats what this whole thread comes down to. I got a little over emotional because his comments may have just come at a bad time. I still should not have called gg a bully. As far as racism if me speaking about it help get more people on the bike, helps make Pittsburgh a better place, and encourages us all to love one another then I will speak up. Um.... am I the only one who noticed cburch said I was a "great friend" I almost passed out when I read that. Now if I can only get him to smile when he gets his picture taken, then my life will be complete.
marvelousm3
2013-04-27 20:57:28
@V - eh, dont' get too crazy. I say stuff. Sometimes I try to live up to the stuff I say. Sometimes you have to kick the ball out 10 yards and try to catch up to it (soccer reference).
edmonds59
2013-04-27 21:14:21
I'm way to cranky and serious to smile in photos.
cburch
2013-04-27 22:08:32
Great, one dehumanizing and exploitative portrayals show down... 639 or so to go.
headloss
2013-05-13 21:15:10
and, when they weren't being racist, they were certainly being exceedingly classist.
cburch
2013-05-13 21:36:31
@gg, just wanted to mention, if you select then quote it will just quote the part you select, instead of the whole thing. Also, everyone may not realize how isolating it can feel being criticized here when you haven't met the people face to face. What might be intended as a joke comes across as hurtful. And since some people here know each other and others don't it complicates everything.
jonawebb
2013-06-22 12:12:39
jonawebb wrote:@gg, just wanted to mention, if you select then quote it will just quote the part you select, instead of the whole thing.
Is this correct?
gg
2013-06-22 12:19:32
jonawebb wrote:Also, everyone may not realize how isolating it can feel being criticized here when you haven’t met the people face to face. What might be intended as a joke comes across as hurtful. And since some people here know each other and others don’t it complicates everything.
I agree. Being someone who has been guilty of doing this, I am now overly cautious about what I post and how I post it. I have learned that once you post something on this board it never goes away, and what may seem like a joke to some can be very hurtful to others. I wish I could go back and stop myself from posting stupid things because now I know that I can apologize and work hard fighting for cyclist but it means nothing to fellow cyclist I offended on this board. Cyclist that could be a great ally that I offended with a sarcastic post. From now on I post with Love, Dignity, and Respect. Last year I sent PM's to people who I have offended on this board apologizing, because I love this cycling community.
marvelousm3
2013-06-22 18:49:26
@mm your apology touched me and convinced me of your good character.
jonawebb
2013-06-22 20:28:32
@jonawebb thank you.
marvelousm3
2013-06-22 20:32:20
mr marvelous wrote:I am now overly cautious about what I post and how I post it.
I certainly have posted some crap. I probably will never really fit in any group really, but I do love cycling and I love the fact that there is a group of people here that also love it. Sure, I don't fit in to the group that well, but at least I ride to and from work almost every day unless it is really crazy bad weather. I think we all have the same goals. Make Pittsburgh a better/safer place to be on a bike. The reason I posted that Boulder article is because I want to show people this kind of thing happens everywhere. I mean that cop in Boulder called the person that got that ticket at 1:00AM. What person does that? Strange. Anyway, I guess I wanted to say, hey you have company out there. There are idiot cops, cyclists, motorists and pedestrians out there. All you can do, is try and get to where you are going alive. Mr, we will meet someday. I have wanted to go on two rides you had, but I had to work both times. I am soon working two jobs for the next two months, so I guess it will be a while. I am still going to be riding to and from work though! Yahoo!
gg
2013-06-22 23:38:53
@gg to quote a good friend of mine, "just keep those pedals moving".
marvelousm3
2013-06-23 08:41:53
I'm feeling the love here...
atleastmykidsloveme
2013-06-23 11:33:56