I don't understand the pedestrian's argument - if he thought the light was red for you wouldn't that make it red for the SUV as well? So in his mind SUVs (or left-turners?) are allowed to run red lights but cyclists aren't?
2009-06-17 04:01:35
8
Yellow Light -Car Left vs Bike Straight
Another rant(?):
On my evening ride tonight, I was crossing Fifth Ave on S. Craig heading north. I was going straight with an opposing car waiting to make a left. The car, well SUV, was being driven by a young female with a older male passenger.
I entered the intersection on yellow. Seeing the opposing vehicle with it's turn signal on, I made eye contact with the driver and the driver stopped. I proceeded through the intersection, but as I continued the driver started to attempt through the intersection. I slowed to the point that I could have easily stopped, but I still continued through the intersection and yelled "EEHH! Watch yourself!" and she stopped and I proceeded to the other side of the intersection. Meanwhile(only a second or two), the light cycled to red.
I rode 50ft or so and pulled off the road in a turn about for the apartment building on the corner to wait for my friend I was riding with who was 50 feet or so behind me going up Craig.
While I was waiting there a pedestrian walked up to me and confronted me, "You can't say you weren't at fault for that," referring to the incident in the intersection. He continued to tell me that I was to blame because the light was red, but then later changed it to "I thought it was red". Then, he just when on about why he felt I shouldn't have done it.
My ride partner agreed that it did turn red but not until I was on the other side, but it was definitely yellow(actually, he kept saying orange) when I entered the intersection.
I told the pedestrian that the light was yellow , and if it was red I wouldn't have gone, and that I was very gracious I was not hit because he would have made a horrible witness.
So, finally, the point of this post: his argument is that I shouldn't have gone because it makes cyclist look like mean people, it put me in danger, and it is counter productive towards bike friendliness. Keep in mind, most of his argument is also based on the light being red (which it wasn't). My argument for going is just as complex, but the biggest part of it is that I had the right of way. Yes, it would have been courteous for me to stop on yellow and let her turn. The biggest reason I didn't is because I had made eye contact with her and she stopped (hesitated). Her continuing to try to cut in front of me is what prompted me to yell (something I have no problem doing, and don't think is wrong). I also feel that if I would have stopped half way through the intersection to let her turn, although, it would have been the defensive move, it would also be the passive move, and she would continue to disregard cyclists' rights to the road. I would like to think that after tonight she will be much more careful in a situation like that.
So, was I wrong? I don't think so (although, I agree it would have been safer for me to let her proceed even after she stopped and I continued, but it would also be safer to not ride at all). Should I have just let her cut me off and waited in the intersection for her to turn?
What would you have done?
A few things to make this more interesting:
-I am almost positive that the girl is the best friend of a frequent customer at the store I work at.
-I am also almost positive that she only has her permit (I try to build rapport with customers).
-She was smiling (nervous smile?) as I yelled.
-I vaguely recalled the passenger pointing left after she stopped to instruct her to continue even though I was in the intersection at that point.
-The store I work at is exclusively sells automotive accessories and high-end/boutique detailing chemicals.
I apologize for the length, but I felt the details were important.
2009-06-17 02:56:08
people in the intersection waiting to turn left on yellow are allowed to exit the intersection by completing their turn after the light has changed to red and all traffic has stopped. in short, the law prohibits one from entering an intersection after the light has changed to red.
generally, the polite (and in my mind, mostly expected) thing to do when approaching a yellow light (i hate when people say orange--my friend drives me nuts with that--orange is when the light is changing from yellow to red, dig?) is to stop, if possible, and let those waiting to turn left exit before the light changes.
this is in no way a legal obligation, though, and drivers flout it all the time. what i would've done is stopped (again, if possible) before entering the intersection, especially if i had a friend trailing behind me, for whom i would just wait on the other side of the light anyway.
however, once you entered the intersection, the safest and most reasonable place for you to be, in my opinion, was on the other side. i think you could easily avoid a car that has decided to turn left after you already entered its presumed path. better to do that than take the chance of stopping right in its path. it's also the confident thing to do, which is the message any cyclist ought to be trying to emanate.
2009-06-17 07:11:16
I would not have entered the intersection in the first place, since you had someone with you. I say this less from a cyclist's perspective, and more from having been snarled at for trying to beat a light when I had someone trying to follow me (in cars).
Related but a tangent: Red-light cameras are going to make this kind of situation worse. People already half into an intersection are going to want to get through before the camera goes off.
2009-06-17 08:17:54
I agree with Dave and Stu. Of course, sometimes I make a bad decision, and end up going through, but I think in those cases, it's just that--a bad decision.
Typically, if I see a car trying to make a left through the intersection I'm approaching, I will signal that they can turn in front of me. I figure, I'm moving slower than car traffic, and if I have to check my speed a bit, it's not a big deal. Plus, I hope that driver pays it forward to another cyclist at some point.
2009-06-17 10:41:55
If you can't stop on the stop bar prior to the signal change from green to yellow, then you should proceed through the intersection. Left turns at signaled intersections never have an implicit right of way - that's why we have signals.
So, if you were traveling at a speed which would not permit you to safely stop at the signal change, then I don't understand the argument to allow her to pass.
If you were traveling slowly, then I could see a gray area of:
1. Her misjudging your approaching speed and her hesitating to safely travel through the intersection.
2. You coasting, slowing down, then stopping, because of her abrupt movements.
So, I think, you're both to blame. You should've simply had the low speed collision, and had them buy some expensive auto detailing products to make up for it.
2009-06-17 12:27:14
It's hard to say without having been there. But it sounds like neither of you quite knew what the other was going to do, and so you both hesitated, and you both threw each other off, and she had someone in the car with her telling her what to do, and that's just a situation that is begging for trouble. If you see her again, be nice, and don't feel a need to "teach her" something. It won't help, and it will only antagonize her.
Incidentally, I agree with Stu, though I'm not sure I agree on the tangent. When you're riding with other people you do have to be a little more conservative.
2009-06-17 13:08:01
however, once you entered the intersection, the safest and most reasonable place for you to be, in my opinion, was on the other side. i think you could easily avoid a car that has decided to turn left after you already entered its presumed path.
The biggest reason I proceeded through was the fact she stopped when she saw me enter the intersection. For some reason (passenger instructions?), she continued to try to turn even though she saw I had just entered the intersection.
I am thinking her decision was based on a mix of not understanding cyclists are not necessarily slow, and the instruction of her passenger.
Also, if she is who I think she is, she is from a more rural suburb where she probably never see's cyclists (besides a roadie or two rolling through the hills).
I would not have entered the intersection in the first place, since you had someone with you.
My friend is usually a lot closer to me. If he was as close as he usually was we both would have made it through fine. (I think he was a little tired from a short sprint down Forbes from Oakland ave)
You coasting, slowing down, then stopping, because of her abrupt movements.
I'm not sure what this "coasting" thing is.... 
If you see her again, be nice, and don't feel a need to "teach her" something.
I don't really have a choice--she is a customer.
2009-06-17 14:46:07