BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

wow, it's almost like i described this exact bike:

http://www.tout-terrain.de/2/products/commuter-bikes/metropolitan/index.html

and apparently it can even be had in the US, although it is not cheap. but wow - aside from not having a front rack it couldn't be much closer to what i'm looking for...

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/ttmetro.asp

Dunno if you need to go with belt drive. When you have a single speed chain line it is nearly zero work to deal with. I rode the Rohloff full time for years and all the maintenance I did was change the oil in the hub once a year, and throw a little lube on the chain. It lasts about 40 times as long as the lube on my cross check. It is still the same chain/cog/etc as when I purchased it in 2003. The Rohloff also includes a cog that you can put on in reverse, to get another decade of wear out of it.

I don't have any experience with belt drives BUT, if I was building an ultimate bike, I would want something I could fix in the middle of Costa Rica with a tool I had in my pack (meaning, chain). Also, an IGH would allow you to use a 1/8" pitch chain instead of a 3/32", bomba proof, and available in the jungle.

If you did go ahead and use a tensioner, you could easily compensate for the gear range of an IGH by just having a couple different front chainrings on hand, for your daily commute, put a big one on, loaded up for touring, put on a littler one. You could even carry 2 when touring.

Steel frame for sure.

I might consider 26" wheels, pretty good universal tire availability, although hadn't put a lot of thought into that, but it's a thought.

What's your price range for a frame? There are some builders out there who can produce a good steel frame for a reasonable amount of money. Some like Tom Teesdale comes to mind....

I used to be all about the ease of maintenance of SS/IGH drivetrains. I've been riding a pretty standard commuter for a few years now, with front and rear mechs (friction mode), and I have no problems with the system. Yes, I have to replace the cassette and chain periodically, but that's about it. IGHs are nice (I rode one for about a year), but they can get finicky and add a few annoyances to removing the rear wheel (does the Rohloff suffer from this?).

Ooh, yeah, I forgot about that aspect - as one who has, at one time, experienced 6 rear wheel flats in one 12 hour period, I would not have wanted to fiddle with a finicky wheel. In an 85 degree drizzle, where glue wouldn't dry. That would have made a long day much longer.

The rolhoff hub has about a 530% range. The Alfine 11 speed has 400% range and the Alfine 8 speed has a 300% range.

I am not a fan of the twist shifter on the rolhoff hub. The Alfine setups have a nice rapid-fire shifter. I like that. There are no bikes that are being produced that I know of with the 11 speed yet. There are a few with the 8 speed Alfine that are set up very nicely. Civia makes a few bikes that would fit your needs. I think only one comes with belt drive but most frames are belt drive capable (future upgrade). Trek makes the distric bike with belt drive and a 8 speed hub.

There are a lot of other bikes out there with nexus hubs or stormy archer hubs, while they all work the Alfine and rohloff ate significantly nicer units.

Maybe some varieties of rohloff are a pain to remove, but if you have the OEM dropouts with disc brake, they are as easy to swap as your front wheel. The shifter housing unscrews with a thumbscrew, then you flip the QR levers and you're on your way. The OEM dropouts are slightly horizontal, and slide horizontally (with the disc brake caliper attached) so you can preset the tension in the chain at home, and then change the wheel without tools.

I had mixed feelings about the twist grip shifter as well. I eventually came around. When you are mountain biking especially, you'll get to a valley and look up to see a giant hill, and you can dump the entire 530% range in one twist. I'd be pissed if I spent a bunch of money for an IGH and had to click through the whole set of gears one at a time. No thanks.

I wish JTek would make a bar-end shifter for Alfine 11 and Rohloff.

I'm not a fan of twisties either, but I agree with dwillen that triggers don't cut the mustard for dumping lots of gears in a hurry.

Thanks, dwillen. I suppose you get what you pay for there, eh?

i suppose it may be a matter of preference, but i would not run flat handlebars on a touring bike. granted, i hate flat bars for my 3 mile commute, but i just couldn't imagine 100 miles with such limited options for hand positioning.

I have been looking at the Metropolitan as well -- maybe not for my commute, but for neighborhood tootling. Just as soon as that price tag stops seeming like a whole lot of money.

Thanks, definitely some good points.

The possibility of breaking a belt worries me too; I guess the solution is to carry an extra belt (and maybe a couple extra gears).

I'm also worried about flat bars - I did the MS150 in 1994 on a MTB with flat bars and my hands were numb for weeks. Unfortunately, if I understand correctly that's pretty much your only option with a Rohloff unless you want to get into weird mounting. So, maybe flat bars + bar ends is a decent compromise.

BTW, I thought the speedhub was in the neighborhood of $1000 but the sheet he sent me says $1650! Ouch - that has kind of shocked the lust out of me...

As far as a frame, I don't know that I want to get into custom frames but maybe considering the cost of everything else it's worth looking into. The Metro frame + fork is ~$1150.

I dunno, overall, the prospect of spending 5 grand on a bike is very daunting, but crap adds up fast... I keep trying to convince myself it's still way cheaper than a car, but that's not a completely effective argument. If someone steals my $1000 bike or one of its $100-150 wheels, I certainly won't be happy about it but I'll live. A $5000 bike with a $2000 rear wheel and $500 front wheel would be a lot less palatable.

That Metropolitan is a sweet bike. I'm guessing that since Peter is probably building those up himself, you could swap out bars pretty easily (though you have still have to consider the shifters for the IGH and their applicability with certain bars).

As far as customs (or mostly customs) go, there are builders out there with good, sub $1000 offerings. Then again, if you start adding stuff like Rohloff mounts, I bet those cost differences even out pretty quickly.

There is another option: the Civia Kingfield and its siblings.

salty, I tried looking for the same kinds of things last year while trying to buy a bike (though I know WAY less about stuff, I didn't even know what it was all called, but when I asked about all the results, I was told your list). And I'm relieved to hear that, just as I discovered, what I thought I wanted 1) is custom build and 2) is mad expensive.

I still live in fear of the bike I "always wanted but didn't know existed" will appear for sale somewhere for <=$800. Not that I don't love my bike, just a fear of cycle commitment I guess.

Since nobody's mentioned it, I figured I'd also throw out xtracycle as an option. Apparently it's ok with IGH.

re: $5,000 bikes; for discussion purposes, let's say you decided that you could spend that on a bike, or whatever your own maximum number is. Slash it by half (or more) for a bike, and spend the other half to actually go somewhere, like, I don't know, Costa Rica. It's very important to balance "having stuff" with "doing stuff", IMO. Just a thought.

i have a touring bike with an 8 speed internal hub and the Jtek bar end shifter, a CETMA cargo front rack and a huge front bag made by swift industries to go with it... i have a rear rack and ortlieb panniers to go with if need be but i rarely use them. i use the generator hub on long tours but usually don't take it along because when i'm touring most of the time i don't ride at night for safety and practicality reasons.

the frame is a kogswell model F and was designed to be a fixed gear work bike, it has internal cable routing and long horizontal dropouts which is nice for the internal hub, i usually use mustache bars when i'm touring and drop bars in the city because i like them for riding fast!

i bought the wheels separately, the generator hub came with the bike and the rear wheel i had built by a local that has since left pgh

i have used a rapid fire, twist, and bar end shifter and the bar end is definitely the way to go with internal hubs:

+reliable indexing

+full range dump in one motion

+convenient and easy mounting for different bars

+sleek!

i ride this bike almost every day and i love it, if we are similar in size you're welcome to give it a spin! for touring i would definitely recommend staying away from flat bars, i do tours with lots of people on rented bikes and when we swap flat bars out for somethings else it makes lots of pains just magically disappear... also once you get your bike finished take it to sports works and get a real fitting done...

@ejwme - it is overwhelming, and I still feel like I'm in the "for every one thing I learn I find out about 3 more things I know nothing about" phase. Maybe that never ends, I dunno... but I've been stuck thinking about this for 6+ months.

I don't think there's any magical perfect cheap bike out there. There are certainly a lot of great bikes in that price range (I'd probably bump it to $1000). The IGH is a limiting factor for around here, any bike in that range is going to have a 3 or 8 speed hub, and going beyond that is either very or ridiculously expensive depending on your choice. So, it's either live with the reduced range, stick with gears, or spend big bucks.

The hub generator stuff adds up in a hurry as well, and disc brakes are more expensive, and ... soon enough you're staring down a $5000 bike and thinking, WTF?

BTW, the surly big dummy is basically a "factory" xtracycle frame... my concern is, that's a lot of bike to lug around on a daily basis... but we'll see - I still think it would be cool, I just hope it would still be cool once the novelty wears off.

@salty: hub generators and paraphernalia aren't cheap, but, so long as you don't go top of the line, you can put together a good setup for a couple hundred bucks without pinching pennies too much. Go with Shimano instead of SON for the hub, build the wheel up at home, and either go previous-generation for store-bought lights or just wire up some LEDs yourself.

It is really, really nice to just ride without ever worrying about batteries for head light or tail light.

@edmonds - excellent point. I think I really want to establish what my "dream bike" would be, and then try to cut it back to a more sensible price. I definitely don't want to spend money on a bike just for the sake of spending money - I want it to be something that I get some real utility out of beyond what I get with my current bike.

But, it is funny - I've spent way more than that on cars with much less angst about it. Not sure why it's so different for bikes. Obviously it costs a lot less to produce a bike, but that doesn't really impact its usefulness to me.

$5k isn't really THAT much to spend on a bike.

my opinion is a bit skewed though...

Yes it is, Colin. I am going to have an intervention

no. i'll just distract you with a new bike.

+1 cburch.

for a few of the kinds of riding i do $5k is a budget to lower-mid level build. for other things $500 is fancy.

for example, my new dh frame cost $3k. but i am saving up to spend $300 on a commuter bike.

i think what i really need is a few more "skewed opinions" egging me on!

Custom bikes are awesome. You won't regret it if you do your homework beforehand.

Oh, I have a custom/ultimate bike in mind for myself - Mercian Vincitore Special - but mentally I can't go for it until I am at the point in my life where I am able to ride every. single. day. Otherwise it will just be a monstrous frustration.

My daughter goes to college in 9 years. Counting.

If you're going to spend $5k on a bike, spend the like $200 bucks a year it costs to insure it against theft

What kind of utility are you looking for? My bike cost maybe $400 new and I've spent about $200/$300 a year keeping it maintained + adding stuffclothes and it goes all over Pittsburgh and carries all kind of crap. A $1000 hub isn't going to add any extra "utility"

that's some beautiful lugwork!

true enough pierce, and that's the part that makes me think this whole thing is a silly waste of money. certainly IGH and belt-drive should be "reduced maintenance" - except I haven't really had to do much maintenance on my bike anyways aside from cleaning and lubing the chain. and, keeping my headlight charged isn't that big of a deal either. granted i could run a much brighter light with a generator hub (and keep my phone charged on long trips), but... there's definitely an 80/20 kind of rule here, you can get 80% of the bike of your dreams for 20% of the cost.

btw, i had no idea you could even get insurance for bicycles, but searching for it, one of the first results was erie insurance (who i use), which claims bikes are already covered under homeowners policies.

i would say a belt drive is a bad idea... you get a lot of wear on chains on multispeed bikes because they have to flex to go through all the gears and they run through more gears and all kinds of stuff... a single speed chain on an internally geared bike will last longer than the chainrings... which is tens of thousands of miles...

a regular light is no replacement for an always on, really bright nice light on a generator hub

i think if you stick with a standard drivetrain you can probably find a commuter or touring frame that will fit your needs well, maybe it will even come with a generator hub... then you just need to build the rear wheel new and you could have the bike you dream about for $500

Yup, bikes are likely covered by homeowners insurance already. Even if stolen out of town.

Some thoughts that crossed my mind on the ride home today:

1. Don't forget about scale when coming what you'd spend on a car v. what you'd spend on a bike. Yes, you've spent more than $5000 on a car (maybe), but would you spend $25,000 on a car? The question is, are you willing to spend 5 times more on something that is dreamy?

2. IGHs and PGH. I survived for several years on a Novara commuter with an 8 speed Nexus IGH, generator hub, and drum brakes. Can you say "heavy?" I rode that thing everywhere, including up many a hill, though nothing of Dirty Dozen quality. You'll be surprised what you can do.

3. IGHs in general. I liked the Nexus, but after riding a normal rear mech for two years, I can't say I miss it. Unless I find several thousand dollars on the sidewalk, an IGH will always lose to a simple friction system in my book.

4. Generator lights: This is the one thing I wish I had. The Novara had one, and it was indeed awesome. Also, there are low cost options here--you don't have to drop a lot of cash on a Schmidt.

I am a cheap bastard, and have never spent much money on a bike, so I'm skewed in the opposite of cburch....

Thanks, that's definitely some good perspective there. I did some thinking on the ride home too (when I wasn't busy wondering why I left the rain pants my wife got me for xmas at home).

I've always tended towards the "knee of the quality curve" myself - spend enough to get a quality item without overspending for incremental benefits. And - probably the top $3000 of that $5000 bike is incremental benefits. I mean, compare it to the Civia Kingfield you linked to earlier, or the Spot Highline or Trek District; they're all very similar bikes - belt drive, nexus 8, ~$1300. But, I'm not sure how I got so hung up on the belt drive to begin with. It's certainly intriguing to me, but the benefits seem pretty marginal compared to the downsides. I'd like to know if people really get 20km out of a belt or if it inevitably gets damaged in some way before it gets there.

Then there's the Rohloff. No doubt it's very cool technology but it costs maybe 5x the price of a derailleur setup for the same function? I have had my derailleurs crud/freeze up in the winter a couple times, so there is some benefit, but again - is it worth the cost? Or, at least, could I get away with an 8 or 11 speed? I dunno - I'm a wuss, and my knees aren't getting any younger. So, I like low gears, but I also like to go fast, which is why I don't really want to consider the 8. But, another possibility is an 8 + double ring up front, or even an internally geared cranks (which gives you something like 500% range and still cheaper than the rohloff).

Anyways, I've been torturing myself with this stuff for months, but this finally feels like progress. Putting it in a board post is somehow more concrete than endlessly tweaking numbers in the build spreadsheet I made and despairing at the results - and I really appreciate everyone's input.

So, at least for now, I think I know what my dream bike is, but I also don't know I don't want to pay for all that crap. I really want disc brakes (reinforced on the wet ride home tonight - I also had some scary incidents this winter). I want enough heel clearance to use panniers (maybe I could find a rack to make this work on my current bike? I didn't try too hard before I gave up). And, I want some lower gears so I can haul a bunch of crap up the hill without killing myself. The rest is all optional, but enough people seem to think dynamo is worth it that it's at least a "maybe".

geared right the nexus 8 will cover everything you regularly use, from pushing downhills to pushing lots of stuff up steep hills... i think most people overestimate the gear range they need to be comfortable... you should try finding a road double and riding it for a while, the range is pretty similar

salty, re: car cost vs. bike: people seem to be ok with spending $ on a car because there is this illusion that it will have "resale value". That's a load of bunk, since any car loses the value of the cost of a nice bike as soon as you sign the papers! It's complete denial of reality.

And, if you get 10 years out of a good car, you're really lucky. If you buy your ultimate bike, you might have it the rest of your life. The bike in my avatar I bought used in 1974 for $200, which seemed expensive at the time, but thinking about it now, I think I got a good deal.

Salty, I face the same issues you do.

It seems there are some things worthwhile.

The Rohloff will a long time essentially maintainence free. It also means you can use a chain for a long time with no problems (or so I'm told.)

Will an eight-speed do? Sure! If you move to Cleveland or some other flat place. If your lowest gear is low enough to comfortably deal with 18th street, the high gear would slow you down on any downward sloping route.

The 11 speed would be marginal.

Or course, if you had the right 8 speeds, an eight speed would be great, but existing hubs are not only a narrow range, they have the order reversed from what is useful - the high gears are close together, but the low gears are far apart. That means the places where you want more gears, you won't have them.

An 8-speed with a triple chain ring might work OK, but then you would still need to change your chain. And the far-spaced low gears would still be an issue.

I don't know about internally geared cranks, but a 500% range is about what you would want, for sure.

The gear range, the disc brakes and teh heel clearance all strike me as valid issue.

We live in the USA. People spend $5000 on a bike just so they canh go go .05 seconds faster than some other recreational biker. That cash is mainly adam's apple measuring anyhow.

Your bike would not be.

It's possible you could get what you want, with the disc brakes and the Rholoff, for a lot less than $5000. (I might be wrong.)

But, yeah, you would have to spend $3K and that is some cash.

Think of it this way - the difference in performance between a bland, practicle car is nill - your speed is still imited by the law, not the technology, you have all the comforts in teh cheaper car.

But people still buy SUVs instead of minivans, they buy "sporty" (HAHAHAHA!) cars, luxury cars and flashy cars, instead of practical transportation.

The only reason I see for this is that people watch TV ("I'm too clever to let the ads affect me!")

The difference in price between a decent car and the car the thieving marketers want you is almost all profit for the cart companies (and advertising expenses). The difference between a decent car and the flashy trash you most often see? That difference is a lot more than you are thinking of spending on a bike.

@mark - I know everyone has their preferences but I wouldn't be happy with 306% for this bike. I really want a low gear close to 20" which tops me out around 60" and you're spun out somewhere in the mid-20s. If I started somewhere in the 30" range then it might be reasonable, but I really want low gears for hauling stuff. Although, edmonds' earlier suggestion of swapping chain rings is an intriguing solution to that issue.

My current bikes are 347% and 442%, so I'm definitely familiar with what those ranges are like. The latter is definitely more what I'm thinking for this application - the range is 21-92" so I can sit and spin down to 3-4 mph @60rpm, or get up above 30mph @120rpm on the other end. I'd probably like to go a little lower (and higher), and the Rohloff would accommodate both, and it has the even 13.6% ratios while like Mick says, Shimano's are all over the map (13-22%). Actually on the 11 they're almost eve (13-14%) but they REALLY cheat on the low gear which is a 30% jump! I don't put as much stock in that as Mick does, but 30% is pretty ridiculous. Anyways, just a matter of whether it's worth paying for that when a 3x9 derailleur setup does almost the same thing for a much lower price.

a 500% gear range is kind of insane... i guarantee you (yes you old man mick) can do everything you do on a 8 speed hub and not miss anything. the best way to do it is to load the old bike up, find the steepest hill you think it is reasonable that you make it up, and pick the gear that will get you up that hill. set your 8 speed up for that, then your high end is wherever it is. for me that ends up with a top speed around 25mph which is plenty fast when i'm fully loaded.

you can put a chain tensioner on it and put a double chainring up front, giving you 600% depending on the chainrings... but it definitely takes some of the simplicity out of the setup and really 600% is just a worthless amount of range... you could almost never use all those gears.

there is a schlumpf internal gear that is inside the bottom bracket that can change the gear of your bike with a heel switch... those are pretty cool but also pricey, if you'd never looked into it that might be a good option though

http://www.cyclemonkey.com/schlumpf-innovations.shtml

also if you really wanna me a weany about your knees this is on their main page: Offers 868% gear range when combined with Rohloff SPEEDHUB 500/14

Heh, you should have looked at the 2.5 one further down the page - 1315%! Now *that* is ridiculous.

But, I think 500% (or at least 400%) is a good, useful range for a utility bike. I agree that 4-25mph is fine (or overkill) when fully loaded - but unless you're going to swap rings depending on what you're doing, the low end has to accommodate being fully loaded and the top end has to be sufficient for when you're unladen.

BTW, I did look at those cranks (SRAM makes one too) but they are pricey - $500-600.

You could probably buy a bike with a regular derailleur and use the savings to have a personal mechanic maintain your chain for the life of the bike....

But sometimes its just nice to spring for good stuff if you have the means. We've all probably had the experience of using adequate tools versus really nice tools.

i would actually like to do a really long climb/decent where you use 1315%... that seems fun for some reason

maybe I'm a scaredy-cat, but I have never run out of gears on the downhill side and thought "darn it, if only I had another gear, I could go FASTER, which I really desperately need right now." I have actually run out of gears on the downhill side and thought "well, that's probably fast enough anyway." But I don't like going fast.

I once bought a brandy new car, cost me ~$16k. Totaled it 9 months later, replaced it with a nicer used car for half the price, redid my kitchen with the difference. Not gonna buy a new car again (gonna try really hard not to buy a car again period)

In the end, it's only money. If you're fairly certain you'll acquire more money later, the important thing is to be happy with what you do with it. I second what Pseudacris said - sometimes it's nice to have nice things that just work.

And never forget the appeal of holy grail chasing, it's one of the benefits to having opposable thumbs and the ability to rationalize

also i do have a lower chainring and chain that i switch out sometimes if i'm going to be doing SERIOUS climbing loaded (i also used it for dirty dozen training rides)... it takes about 5 minutes to do, the chain is already the right length, 5 chainring bolts, 1 masterlink, readjust tension... thats it!

@ mark a 500% gear range is kind of insane... i guarantee you (yes you old man mick) can do everything you do on a 8 speed hub and not miss anything.

Uh...

I don't believe so.

Look at the speed range Salty was talking about - 4 to 25 mph. That's not an extreme range.

625% - but not extreme.

I have about 520% gear range on one of my bikes and the other is close to 600%.

When I haul my guitar, amp, and speaker cab home in my trailer going home from a rock and roll gig, 3 am, I'm fekking tired. I don't wanna deal with inferior gearage.

Mick, co'mon, have the groupies drive you home, what are you thinking?

What? And let them try to take advantage of my innocence and purity?

The fact is, I ride home over these hills when I am exhausted and in no mood for athletics. Often. I like my gears.

@Mick. I think we could all agree you are not a good candidate for an internal hub. But I agree with Mark, I'm convinced most people could do well. Even in Pittsburgh.

@Salty. You can now have your thread back.

FWIW, I assume the rider has an internal 2x range (60-120rpm), so my 4-25mph number was assuming an 8 speed, 306% hub. If you assume you want to hold 90 it's 6-18mph.

I still disagree that 300% is enough for "most people" in Pittsburgh. How many people cite the hills as a reason to stay away from cycling? Not that lower gears are magically going to magically get anyone up a hill, but it certainly makes things easier.

I think this topic (and thread) has been pretty beaten to death at this point. In any case, I'm certainly off the ledge of dropping 5 grand on a bike. But, you're not going to convince me that 300% is good for me.

Well if you're done thinking about that, I think you should go buy/do something nice for your wife for even thinking about buying a $5,000 bike. That's how that works.

(hee, hee).

Edmonds is a wise man. Listen to him.

In fact, why not buy your wife a $1500 bike to go with the $3000 one you buy yourself, then spend the $500 you 'saved' on a wild night on the town together?

That aside, with the exception of OEM Rohloff dropouts or belt drive-compatible chainstays, don't forget that just about everything you may want to add can be done incrementally. It's not necessarily a $3000 bike...it could be a $1000 bike, that gets $500 worth of upgrades every six months...

i guess the idea is that people that need the 1:1 to make it up a hill don't need to same top end that someone that could make it up the same hill in a harder gear wants that little bit extra on the top end...

don't get me wrong, my dream bike has a rohloff... but i ride my nexus hard, i don't worry about it, and if 8 years passes and i need to buy a new one (or it gets stolen or i get hit) then that is not a 1500 wheel i have to replace, and i think that sort of attitude is worth something too, the ability to not worry about it and just ride however you want.

i think the 11 speed is a good compromise, it uses an oil bath like the rohloff so it should last longer too... the alfine group has a lot of nicer shifters as well.

Ok, I think the results of all this are, make some tweaks to my crosscheck and screw spending a ton of money.

First, I gotta get some panniers and make them work. I understand the ortlieb "plus" models can be angled to prevent heel strike, so I'm gonna check that out.

Then, I want some sort of platform I can strap bulky crap to, and bring home a pizza safely. I have some plywood scraps in the basement so I'm gonna try to DIY something. If that doesn't work out Civia also makes a platform front rack that doesn't need mid-fork eyelets, only holds 10lb but that should be enough for my purposes.

Disc brake on the front? Maybe. floggingdavy was asking about doing that a couple months ago, I'll have to see how that turned out.

I would like a little better gear range. I'm confused - my RD is a shimano RD-4500-GS (long cage). The spec sheet says it has 37T capacity but also the max front difference is 22T, which I don't get. If my cassette only has a 13T difference, why can't it handle 24 on the front? I'd like to put a 26T ring on there.

Ah, and probably buy a trailer. Even if I don't feel I can lug it with my CC, there's no reason I can't just use my MTB. Why swap chainrings when you can just swap bikes?

@ salty Maybe you could get serval new chain rings - it seems to me that a 48T chain ring (26 + 22)is pretty big.

Alternatively get 19 or 21 T range cassette.

yeah, that's true, although I hate to give up top-end if I don't have to.

The spec sheet also says the largest rear cog it will handle is a 27 (I have a 25 now) so I'm stuck on that end too. Road stuff is nowhere near as flexible as MTB stuff.

So, "legally" I could put a 28 on the front and 27 on the back. But, then I'm changing twice as many parts, and I'm not sure a 27T cassette even exists. I'd rather just slap a 26 on the front and call it a day.

You probably could get away with it - you would just have to be very careful about cross gearing.

Front rack. Seriously, CETMA.

Favorite bike accessory part I've had in a long, long time.

http://urbanvelo.org/cetma-5-rail-cargo-rack-review/

You can put a mountain bike derailleur/cogs on your cross check. The guys I got my bike from actually tried to talk me into this to get a larger range. I should have listened to them

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Mick has MTB stuff on his... which of course brings it one step closer to a LHT

that rack does look cool but unfortunately I have no available real estate on my bar... which is probably a consequence of my gadget fetish, although there's not much room to begin with.

Yeah, my Crosscheck currently has almost 600% gear range.

I have been lurking on this link for a few days & when I saw this bike for sale on ehay I figured it might be worth showing.

This was someone's dream commuter bike & now it's for sale.

Too small for me otherwise I might consider it... but also a good example of how things get ridiculous - that friggin KICKSTAND goes for $350.

skip pizza, eat calzones. You can stuff one in a jersey pocket (or, in a pinch, down the back of your shirt) and don't need a rack.

this cetma rack uses no bar space... jussayin... these racks are awesome and the guy is super nice, all made in oregon

Yeah but if I bought that then I'd be back to my original problem - I'd have to buy a new bike to put on my bike.

I have a Surly "Nice Rack" - it's pretty good.

Solid. I could carry a groupie on it if I had to.

It isn't one of the wide ones and the top tube on it isn't quite long enough for hanging my paniers on, so I have to go to the next one down.

Oh...I so want that Cetma rack that mounts to the brake hole in the fork!

+1 on the Cetma's, too. I used one for awhile and it was swell.

you could just get that rack and buy another bike for someone else and deliver it to them... then you wouldn't have to have two bikes...

Solid. I could carry a groupie on it if I had to.

Goes along with the cyclist saying "Nice rack" and referring to the bolted-on accessory on the bicycle.

Yeah, I've run my Cetma with panniers before with clips on the fender/rack eyelets. And a tent and bedroll across it. Awesome.

You could even do PBP on such a setup...

http://www.bikesfortherestofus.com/2011/02/goodness-ive-been-asleep-too-long-here.html

http://www.wired.com/reviews/2011/04/spot-ajax/

reading through bike reviews, thought of this... its pretty close to what you originally were interested in... but at the same time sooo far away.

yeah, i remember looking at the spot site (if you go to gates they have a list of everyone who makes a belt-drive bike), although i'm not sure if the ajax was there then - i definitely don't remember that dropout system.

but, a month later my fascination with IGH and belt-drive has kind of vanished i'm sure it will come back sometime, it's just so expensive... in the meantime, i'm pretty happy with the panniers i bought - which have definitely increased my hauling capabilities. and i'm thinking of building a dyno-wheel (probably using shimano or sram instead of that godawful expensive schmidt stuff).

the ultimate commutouring bike is the one you end up riding i suppose...

you can probably buy a used dyno for less than 50 bucks, also if you want to try it out and have lights you can use my wheel for a bit, i probably won't use it till the end of the month.

thanks for the offer - unfortunately i'm not that prepared (nothing to hook up to it) and also going on vacation tomorrow.

i dunno if i'm thinking lights as much as charging my phone, gps, etc while out on the trail. still more of an idea in my head than anything concrete.

so you're an ideas guy, eh?

i would use a little solar panel for that... you don't want to have a dyno weight+drag all the time just so you can keep your cell topped off all the time... how often are you really going to be touring where there is no electricity for days/weeks?

and how many of those places have cell signal...

sure - unfortunately they're all bad ideas...

the answer to your question is "never"; i'm mainly solving a problem i don't really have. the only "touring" i see in my immediate future is taking the trail to DC. so, i can keep the phone off and if i need it, it will still be charged. it would be nice to keep the GPS working, but that's just so I can download the track when I get back. at some point I have to ask myself if seeing a line on a map and some statistics is really worth all that trouble.

i think this whole thread was based on some abstract idea in my head of this perfect, self-sufficient, low-maintenance bike. but in reality, i don't actually have any use for such a beast.

The bike-current list is probably your source for circuits to charge electronics from a dynohub. I vaguely recall seeing a commercial product online somewhere.

Commercial products:

Busch & Muller e-Werk

Dahon Reecharge