BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

I'm pretty comfortable, now, with my son (14) riding in the streets, even by himself. But it is dangerous, you just listed a bunch of reasons why.

A. now has a couple years of street education riding with me. That's with me saying -- look at that car, he could make that left in front of us without signaling -- see how far these car doors open?, that's the door zone -- let this car go through the intersection ahead of us, we don't want the surprise right turn -- and so on.

And, #1, awesome.

You've touched on what ejwme pointed out to me is called The Popsicle Index. In a phrase, how comfortable are you in letting your kid travel to the nearest store, unattended, to purchase a popsicle, and return home? Whether by bike or on foot, if your percentage of comfort is less than 100%, why? What specific things lead you to believe that? You have delineated several, and for good reasons. As a community, I think we're finally making some headway in raising driver awareness, but we're nowhere near where we want it to be. Accompanying you on a trip around town is one step above accompanying both parents around town, but there again, only one step from traveling solo.

So, what do we as a cycling community need to do to get the let-my-11yo-ride-solo Popsicle Index to 100% in our communities at large?

sarah_q... not to point out the obvious, but why not ask him (11yr old) which he thinks he'd feel safer with (front/back of you while riding), and try it? If you're not comfy, swap. I can think of pros and cons for both, the only clear winner is the two of you going out for a ride

Stu's right - we have to bump up the Popsicle Index as a community so that these questions don't come up. Highways are marked as forbidden to cyclists for everyone's safety - all other roads *should* be safe for us.

In a phrase, how comfortable are you in letting your kid travel to the nearest store, unattended, to purchase a popsicle, and return home? Whether by bike or on foot, if your percentage of comfort is less than 100%, why?

High-fructose corn syrup in said popsicles.

I think the popsicle indix is a good start to approaching this question, but I think it is a larger question as well -- what happens when the popsicle is not the destination? As kids, I think most of us grew up riding our bikes in our neighborhoods -- first on the sidewalks, and then in the streets. We learned our road skills gradually, as our experience and desires dictated. What is being asked here is how to accelerate that learning curve. I think the answer is to model it -- sort of -- after the drivers ed program. You've educated your son on the rules of the road, right? You've taught him proper use and operation of his vehicle, right? You've taught him the basics of safety (helmet, etc), I presume. So, the book work is done. Time for a learner's permit, and direct, observed operartion of his vehicle. I think in the bicycle contextm, that falls into line with what Nate suggested -- riding in a line, with the front person calling out what they are looking at, and looking for. You can alternate the front and back positions, perhaps letting him take the lead on quieter streets. By alternating responsibility for being the "driver" (and calling out what you see, or what you plan to do, and why) you can get a feel for how well his "street sense" is coming along. When you are both comfortable, you send him out on a few solo runs - advanced popsicle runs, perhaps, or a venture outside his immediate neighborhood or comfort zone. See how it goes.

I've had my son out riding on the road since about that age, he's 14 now. When we started I would keep him in front so I could see what he was doing, also if he wavered out from the side I could kind of "block" from behind, plus it's much easier for a person in front to hear directions coming from behind, than the other.

He's now pretty sensible, he goes down hills actually very slow, apparently didn't get my "what could go wrong?" gene. But maybe that's just when he's with me.

I found organized day tours to be very good places to take a youngster out to get some experience, safety in numbers and all that.

plus it's much easier for a person in front to hear directions coming from behind, than the other.

+1

I agree with edmonds. Assuming you are keeping a reasonably close following distance, from behind you can keep them to the right of your travel line creating a traffic "shadow" for them to ride in, and you can holler up any other instructions. Visually, they can focus on what's ahead of them and they only need to listen to what's going on behind them, which is mostly you.

With the adult in front, the main advantage I see is having them crash into you instead of whatever the other hazard was in a stop short situation. In front, you are constantly having to look back at them for verbal communication and to see what hazards are coming upon them. They need to split their focus on both what's ahead (you) and behind them.

I am 100% okay with him walking to the store by himself as long as he uses the crosswalks. Have you noticed that the only crosswalks on Beechwood Blvd are either at Phillips by Colfax (right near the store, actually) or all the way up at Forbes. It is harder than heck to cross Beechwood safely on foot due to high-speed traffic and the paucity of crosswalks. Very dumb considering there is a beautiful park (at the Environmental Center) RIGHT there but the kids on my side of the street can't get to it w/o risking their lives or walking a long way out of the way.

He is more comfortable with me in back. Good point about him being able to hear me better too. I usually ride that way with him to do the "traffic shadow" thing.

He wants to go more places on bike -- S Side, N Shore, etc. He has a ton of endurance, actually, so physically I know he can do it. But even on side streets there are always a few scary intersections,etc. to contend with no matter what the route.

Thanks for the advice!

sounds like he wants to Flock

Flock would be a GREAT learning tool!

when i'm riding with a n00b or someone i have a vested interest in protecting, i try to keep them in front of me so that they can dictate the speed and since i'm more comfortable in traffic, and have no problem pushing passing cars way over by crowding the lane, giving them plenty of room. keeping an eye on them and shouting instructions solidify it as the logical place, in my opinion, though there is something to be said for "do as i do, not as i say" in that situation.

+1 to HV's idea of riding slightly behind them and to their left. Easier to see them and to "run interference if neecesssary". I also think it's easier to introduce people (kids or adults) to the joys of street riding on weekend mornings when traffic is lighter.

I suspect your son will eventually find himself some distance from home, just before curfew, or whatever, which will encourage him to ride in some less than ideal conditions. You might want to be sure that at least a couple of your training rides are in rain/wet conditions, or even after dusk, so he at least knows what to expect. He won't know things like how slippery metal gets, or how slow his brakes will be to respond unless he experiences it AND you tell him why it's happening.

I've begun riding to Waterworks mall with my 7-year-old. We go around back where it's a little quieter, and I coach her about being aware ("head on a swivel"), keeping hard to her right, thereby limiting her field of danger to her left, looking over her left shoulder often, looking all ways and taking extra care at intersections, etc. A lot of it was just establishing the basics and a vocabulary - which quickly becomes short-hand. I ride behind her and prompt her on what she ought to be noticing and looking for.

I am just trying to picture him on, say, Liberty Ave. When we came up from the jail trail I cut through the CMU parking garage. Usually I take Greenfield. But... I don't know. I guess I'll just have to take it one day/ one ride at a time.

Also, good point about time of day. But my kid is looking at the bike as a means of transportation not just rec rides that we plan for early a.m. For example, me: "lets hit Quiet Storm." Him: "Can we ride there?"

Overall I am glad no one said no, don't do it, too risky. That's pretty much what I was wondering. I am a very confident rider in the city although I meet plenty of people who think I'm nuts, never mind putting a kid on the road.

I recommend at least one trip the length of Comrie Way (or whatever it's named at whatever point along Penn, that alley a half block south). Lots and lots and lots of crossing streets, and checking for people and bikes crossing your path of travel on the sidewalks of the cross streets. That's just as important as learning how not to get mowed down or doored on Penn or Liberty. Just because there's no stop sign on the alley does not mean you can barrel across sidewalks and the side streets without stopping or even looking.

It also has such wonderful features as a moon surface, loose gravel, cars coming out of garages, pedestrians appearing out of nowhere, the occasional garbage truck, cars taking up pretty much the whole street. Just all kinds of interesting and potentially dangerous things.

For this, I recommend (where possible) riding right alongside him, so you can easily communicate with one another.

Overall I am glad no one said no, don't do it, too risky. That's pretty much what I was wondering. I am a very confident rider in the city although I meet plenty of people who think I'm nuts, never mind putting a kid on the road.

there will always be those people. most of them haven't been on a bike since age 10, and their longest trip was around the block. they just don't have any real concept of what it's like to be on a bike in the city.

by age 11, he's probably already thinking ahead of you for all the potential dangers and things to look for. the problem begins to be that soon, you'll have to actually convince him that you're right!

i've taken my 13-year-old niece on a few pretty hairy roads, and while she's (presumably about) two years older, she's also likely a lot less experienced. she did just fine, and i never once felt i was endangering her. as you say, one day/one ride at a time.

Sure there will be those in the general population that think you're nuts putting your youngster on the road with you. However, I think they're the ones who are nuts not teaching their children skills to safely navigate through their environment independently.

Good early teen cyclists later translates to more observant, confident drivers, drivers who are more tolerant of cyclists.

My own daughter (close enough to 17 to say so) just got her license, and has been cycling on some pretty hairy roads herself, solo, since about 12.

All good points. I feel better already. Once this heat wave breaks I'm taking him for a ride to Schenley Park to work on his hill gearing some.

I'm not a parent, but I have to say I think it's awesome.

For one, I grew up in the suburbs with parents who were hesitant to let me WALK to the school bus stop alone well beyond age 11, and riding bikes to school was strictly prohibited in my district.

For two, I'm in my 20s and just learning how to safely ride in traffic, and it's intimidating and scary! Had I learned as an 11-year-old with someone helping me and teaching what they know from experience, I'd be more competent and confident. Go you!

Also, I second StuInMcCandless's point. Nothing has made me as a driver more aware of pedestrians and cyclists than being one.

^ I'll do city rides with you too if you want.

I grew up right near where Stu is now and it was no big deal for me to go from Ingomar to Perrysville or North Park etc.

My dad taught me how to survive and let me rip.

When I got back on the horse a few years ago to commute in the city, it was a piece of cake.

I support it 100%

He loves the seitan hoagie. Perhaps we need a SPAK road trip.

If I'm not working I will ride with you guys for a bit post-food coma

My 13 year old now rides the city streets on his own. We began riding with him on his own bike when he was about 9 or 10. We tend to try and use as many bike lanes as possible and I do like to avoid rush hour traffic either when we are together, or when he is riding alone. He currently has been riding 4 miles between my house and his dad's pretty frequently. If I am at work or somewhere else, he calls before he leaves and again when he gets there. He is very pleased with the freedom he gets by being able to transport himself. It is a little nerve wracking, but mostly I am very pleased that he is doing it.

The above-referenced 14-year-old (in Nate's post) rode to his first day of high school today.

Yes, it's nerve-wracking, but then I remember how I used to ride without a helmet or a cell phone when I was a kid.

If you want to recall the joys of exploration and freedom, pick up a copy of "An American Childhood" by Annie Dillard. She has wonderful descriptions of wandering around Frick Park. That experience has become all too rare for this generation.

^ congrats on the first day of HS. Our first day of 6th grade is Thur. He's off to CAPA. That would be a fun ride when he's in 9th grade.

Wow! How can A. be in HS already? That's AMAZING!