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2013 Dirty Dozen Training Rides

It is that time of year again. Jim Logan and I will be leading these. These are no drop training rides. We will follow the course, cutting out Rialto again, as the bottom portion is missing and dangerous (and pointless) to attempt. We usually pause at the bottom of the hills to explain what to expect, wait at the top of hills, and have a neutral rollout between hills. The event is the Saturday after Thanksgiving. We will meet at 8am on Sundays at the Golden Triangle Bike Rental near the downtown portion of the Jail Trail. October 6: Center Ave/Guyasuta Road, Ravine Street/Sharps Hill Road, and Berryhill Road October 13: High Street/Seavy Road, Logan Street, and Suffolk/Hazelton/Burgess Streets October 20: Sycamore Street, Canton Avenue, and Boustead Street October 27: Welsh Way, Barry/Holt/Eleanor Streets, and Flowers Avenue/Kilbourne Street/Tesla Street November 3: Center Ave/Guyasuta Road, Ravine Street/Sharps Hill Road, Berryhill Road, High Street/Seavy Road, Logan Street, and Suffolk/Hazelton/Burgess Streets November 10: Sycamore Street, Canton Avenue, Boustead Street, Welsh Way, Barry/Holt/Eleanor Streets, and Flowers Avenue/Kilbourne Street/Tesla Street November 17: As many hills as we feel like doing. Some of us did them all last year. November 30: Event day. For detailed info, please see the Chewman's website: http://www.dannychew.com/dd.html
stefb
2013-09-07 20:57:19
i was just thinking about this earlier today, wondering when it would be time to start. i generally hate fall: the quick death of summer, and the slow onslaught of winter; but this is something to look forward to (potentially in dread, but still).
hiddenvariable
2013-09-08 00:09:05
^...the onset of perpetual darkness, the cold pissy winter sun, the idiotic 3 month "holiday season"... I'm glad to hear someone else feels like I do.
edmonds59
2013-09-08 07:20:36
Too bad, Sundays again. I thought they were going to be Saturdays this year.
jonawebb
2013-09-08 12:48:00
jonawebb wrote:Too bad, Sundays again. I thought they were going to be Saturdays this year.
Jon, noone can prevent you from leading Saturday Series of the same (or different order) rides. I think both Steff and Jim would gladly add Saturday Series to the calendar.
mikhail
2013-09-08 16:51:48
Sorry, Sundays work out best for us. Like Mikhail said, you can lead rides on Saturday. The gpx file can be found with a google search.
stefb
2013-09-08 17:18:33
I'm going to try and make as many of these as possible.
byogman
2013-09-08 19:17:24
I'll be there. Already in training for the training:( Apparently I am out of condition.
sarapgh2
2013-09-09 09:14:44
This is relevant to my interests... I only hope I can convince @LizziMac to join the "fun"...
jaysherman5000
2013-09-09 09:54:20
Will be in attendance for at least a couple. Might even break out the carbon for additional fun-makings and general jackassery.
jamesa
2013-09-09 10:20:11
sarapgh2 wrote:I’ll be there. Already in training for the training:( Apparently I am out of condition.
Yeah, me too. Didnt pit so many miles in in August and it shows. I plan on trying to escape the office and have my lunch on one of the overlooks from grandview whenever possible to train back up.
byogman
2013-09-09 10:24:26
I would like to come to these, but 8am is pretty early for me. I will try to make it at least once. Would anyone else be interested in a 10am or later start, either Saturdays or Sundays?
ted
2013-09-09 10:58:01
10 am Saturday sounds great to me. I don't want to lead the ride, having never made it up some of the hills, but I'll be happy to join.
jonawebb
2013-09-09 11:05:37
We'll see if I can still make it up all of them. canton takes me a few tries cause I spin out.
stefb
2013-09-09 11:36:43
So will there be 2 separate sessions? One Sat at 8AM and the other Sunday at 10? Not saying I'll be there -- or that I would actually attempt the DD, but I do have my last century of the year in late Oct and sounds like this would be good training.
myddrin
2013-09-10 07:51:11
No, no. We're talking about training rides. The Dirty Dozen itself is always the Saturday after Thanksgiving.
jonawebb
2013-09-10 07:59:47
jonawebb wrote:No, no. We’re talking about training rides. The Dirty Dozen itself is always the Saturday after Thanksgiving.
I'm trying to figure out the schedule for the training rides, sorry if my wording was confusing. The initial post from stefb says Saturday at 8, but it looks like it changed to Sunday at 10?
myddrin
2013-09-10 08:54:37
Stefb & Jim's rides are Sundays at 8. There's no change there. There is also talk of training rides Saturday at 10, but that's not confirmed yet. I hope it will be.
jonawebb
2013-09-10 09:39:03
If anyone wants to do Grandview lunch as training, I'll be doing that starting 11:30 today, and maybe semi-frequently. Not as a ride leader mind you, I expect to bring up the rear esp if I try to get cute and bring the folding chair (on the fence, last time I tried that I didn't make the hill). Start: downtown just outside the Starbucks on the side of the omni william penn on oliver avenue: My Route (again, not a leader, do what you want): R Grant, R Ft. Pitt Blvd, L smithfield street bridge, L carson, R (barely) Arlington, R sycamore, R Wyoming, R Grandview, lunch from last overlook before McCardle. R McArdle, L Arlington, L (barely) Carson, R Smithfield street bridge, cont Smithfield st, R to start on Oliver Ave. Maybe doing this tomorrow, too, weather permitting (light sprinkling fine, real rain, nah).
byogman
2013-09-10 10:03:44
Humid today, sadly no sprinkling to cool it down, just tried to crank it really steady. But first training ride training ride under the belt. Tomorrow looks wet potentially, but I'll try to give it go again, if someone wants to join, PM me (or gmail me if you have already). And if I'm the only one who wants to run out in the middle of the work day and sweaty, I certainly understand that, but it was fun.
byogman
2013-09-10 11:26:41
jonawebb wrote:Too bad, Sundays again. I thought they were going to be Saturdays this year.
Sorry Jon. With my new business, I can't give up that many Saturdays in a row. We open at noon on Sundays, so Sunday rides won't impact my business as much.
jimlogan
2013-09-23 21:45:36
And I just like Sunday mornings.
stefb
2013-09-24 07:18:07
Top. This is happening tomorrow even if it is raining.
stefb
2013-10-05 14:24:53
I live in Mercer PA, Would like to ride the Dirty Dozen. Is this training ride open to all.
tsmith
2013-10-06 05:41:49
Yes.
byogman
2013-10-06 06:09:24
thank you
tsmith
2013-10-06 09:44:00
Nice ride. Thanks to all who came out. Great job. Bring your climbing legs for next week!
stefb
2013-10-06 10:23:32
Was fun, screamingly type 2 for me on the "easy" bonus hill. Tips for avoiding cramps appreciated.
byogman
2013-10-06 19:17:50
byogman wrote: Tips for avoiding cramps appreciated.
Magnesium might help.
rustyred
2013-10-06 20:43:08
I thought you were muttering "crap!" Instead of "cramp," over and over
stefb
2013-10-06 20:46:43
Nah, but something stronger may have snuck in there after the transition from climbing to using the bike just so I could stay upright after failing the first attempt at a Frankenstein walk.
byogman
2013-10-06 21:52:13
i saw ya'll this mornig before the ride started, but i was late for work and kind of blasted by like a bat out of hell. next week i should have enough time to say howdy.
pbeaver
2013-10-06 23:28:37
RustyRed wrote:
byogman wrote: Tips for avoiding cramps appreciated.
Magnesium might help.
1. Save every heartbeat. Go as slow as possible. Stay aerobic as much as possible. 2. Weight matters. This is one of the few times in cycling that weight actually matters. I can feel the difference between my steel and carbon bikes on steeps. On the other hand, weight helps training. 3. The nutritionists say sodium more than magnesium. I get both from Hammer Endurolytes when I need them. Electrolytes are my #1 supplement for improving my performance. 4. Refuel before you need it. The right time to refuel (and supplement) is immediately after a climb, so your body can take in the material when it isn't under stress. However, you need less than you expect with these short high intensity bursts. PS: I violated one of the basic rules of leading rides (don't extend rides) with the bonus hill. My only defense is that my house is on top of hill 4, and I didn't think I would drag the entire ride with me.
jimlogan
2013-10-07 20:37:08
Yeah, didn't refuel early enough that's for sure. Drank some more water and crammed a banana in my mouth at the base of the fourth hill. Mind you I'd been cramping a little ever since the top of third hill. Dumb, dumb, dumb. As for the heavy beater of a bike, I think I'm going to have to wait a little longer to get my road rocket. I'd do well to get myself back at regular riding weight and condition... was off the bike more often than not through all the high holidays which did bad things on both fronts.
byogman
2013-10-07 20:53:22
I have a training question. I doubt I'll go on the actual DD this year -- I'm too old and unfit -- but I do love climbing and want to learn as many of the DD hills as possible. I'm 50, 6'2" 160# and ride a carbon bike most of the time. I like to climb seated as much as possible so I have a compact 50/34 crankset and an 11-32 cassette. Anything less than about 17% I can just take my time and "spin" on up in the 34:32 more or less forever. I've gotten quite comfortable with Flowers/Killbourne/Tesla; I start almost every weekend ride with it. I just take my sweet time up Killbourne to stay rested. I climb the first part of Tesla seated in 34:28 until just after Prescott St where there is sort of a "false flat" (I think it dips down to about 15% for a few meters) just before the really steep section. I downshift to 34:25 and stand for the steep stretch from there to Indus St. The whole Tesla part of the climb (to the water tank) takes about 1:40 and I'm going about 6mph. I'm pretty gassed by the top. I have in mind for training to stay seated the whole way and just shift to the 34:32 and also to work my way down to standing in 34:22. I can stand in the 34:32 but it is awfully hard to keep anything approaching a smooth pedal stroke ... more like climbing stairs while doing a track stand ... so I would rather leave that for emergencies. Anyway, given that little personal history, does anybody have a sort of list of the DD hills from least to most difficult (considering my "abilities")? I have dug up a few gps maps of the DD that appear to match my grade data on Tesla (my gps gives a max reading of about 23% on Tesla, but it averages -- I'm pretty sure the steepest 30m or so is more like 25%), but personal experience can tell more than data sometimes. One other note is that I tend to be on 23mm tires at 120#, and that seems like a really bad idea on cobble stones.
neilmd
2013-10-23 09:21:04
http://cyclingfusion.com/fanatics/images/DirtyDozenGradePower.pdf gives the hill grades. I'd say the hardest hills are Logan, Canton of course, and Barry-Holt-Eleanor. Flowers-Tesla is hard mainly because it comes at the end, though that steep patch is tricky. In my so-called training this year I've been able to make it up Tesla by slaloming (which I guess I can get away with because there won't be many people around me by that time) and up Logan by weighting the front of my bike. I'm going to try Canton next.
jonawebb
2013-10-23 09:41:29
It continually amazes me what some people consider unfit. OK, back on point... neilmd, I know you said you don't want cobbles, but the cobbled section is more insult to injury on Suffolk than a real part of what makes it difficult (unless you're racing it) because it's at a really gentle grade. So do keep that one in the list to try. Outside of the dozen, Dornbush street is on my personal to-do list.
byogman
2013-10-23 14:10:26
Thanks -- on the wheels I'm more wondering whether something fatter might be more sensible. Dornbush looks like some climbing equipment might help. I like Columbia in Swissvale, but it never gets extremely steep. Still a good workout though.
neilmd
2013-10-23 16:46:59
Take that chart with a grain of salt. For instance Canton Ave. maxes at 37%. And where does the grade on Rialto St vary at all?
mayhew
2013-10-23 16:57:24
Chris Mayhew wrote:Also, lower your tire pressure. I don’t know what you weigh but 120 psi is quite high. It actually increases rolling resistance and decreases ride quality.
Well, it does not increase rolling resistance (rail road has one of the lowest one -- metal on metal) but it decrease ride quality so much that total speed gets reduced. And there is non trivial relationship with friction-friction spot-skidding.
mikhail
2013-10-23 17:24:04
Actually, Google "Tom Anhalt tire" and spend more than 24 minutes reading it before getting back to me.
mayhew
2013-10-23 17:30:52
Chris Mayhew wrote:“Tom Anhalt tire”
Chriss, not to offend you but I've spent 5 years studying math and physics. If you want we can get deep into integral/differentials/etc. But even you first article shows:
The understanding of the above explanation will go a long way towards understanding why wider tires have lower rolling resistance than narrower tires (for a given tire construction and pressure), why higher tire pressures (to a point) will reduce rolling resistance, why higher “thread count” tire casings (i.e. thinner materials) typically exhibit lower rolling resistance, why thinner tire treads will reduce resistance to rolling, why materials used to enhance puncture resistance can increase rolling resistance, and why certain inner tube materials are faster than others.
And it's to the point is not about decreasing, it's about no increasing -- it becomes flat. As per Tom A. articles and as it was already discussed among physics -- on real flat and smooth surfaces it's not standing. Still higher pressure gives lower rolling resistance. What is happening in real life is that you cannot get surface smooth enough. And one using high pressure is going to bounce and vibrate. And it takes your energy. But it is not a rolling resistance!
mikhail
2013-10-23 17:48:27
Cool. Glad I started this. I am an actual Physicist for what it's worth... Fortunately, all I really care about is getting to the top of these suckers. I've seen quite a lot of discussion about the moments of inertia of various wheels etc that basically boil down to "it's totally irrelevant" but rolling resistance is obviously relevant to, well, rolling. It seems like for climbing, all things considered, MORE friction is better (loss of traction being one of the difficulties). To completely sidetrack the discussion, I obviously appreciate that minimal weight is a good thing for climbing, but it did take a while to get comfortable standing on the really steep pitches on my road bike because the CG gets high compared to my heavier cyclocross.
neilmd
2013-10-23 18:48:32
ps -- I am a bit over 160 so by your chart I should be at 110#. But the other question still stands -- is it better with cobbles and whatnot to be on 32mm tires at 80#?
neilmd
2013-10-23 18:55:38
Anyway, I thought that at one point there were 15 dirty dozen hills. I was going to find the email with their names and then find them and ride them..Dornbush may have been one of them. At any rate, I will try to make it to canton to yell at people.. I mean encourage people.. To get to the top, since I am not able to race.
stefb
2013-10-23 21:51:23
Neil I think larger tires with less pressure will help you on cobbles to bounce around a bit less/ have more surface area of contact. That being said I think 32's are a bit of overkill 25's or 28's would be fine I think. Although if you have 32's on a cyclocross bike already you could always give the hills a try on each bike and compare.
tetris_draftsman
2013-10-24 06:07:30
Yeah, it's more complicated than a simple physics issue, because the road is not smooth. Imagine hitting a rock with really high pressure tires. They will not deform, so instead the entire wheel will have to go up as it rides over the rock. Pushing the wheel up takes energy. You get some, but not all, of that energy, since some goes into making your ride uncomfortable, etc. Now imagine the same thing with a soft tire. It deforms, the wheel doesn't have to go up. There's still energy loss, because it takes energy to deform the tire, and you don't get all that back on the other side of the rock. But less energy is lost because only the tire deforms. OTOH, on a smooth road the soft tire continually deforms and reforms its shape as it contacts the road, so you lose energy that is not lost with a hard tire. Metal wheels on a metal track are optimal for this reason. So the comparative efficiency of tires depends on the road, the air pressure, how much shock the bicycle itself absorbs, the weight of the rider, maybe even the rider's technique, and so on. It's not easy to work out from basic physics, and even experimentally it's hard to study because there are so many different factors.
jonawebb
2013-10-24 07:53:21
First four yesterday -- quite fun. No cobbles of course but Berryhill is pretty chewed up.
neilmd
2013-10-28 12:41:54
Berryhill is pretty chewed up. Unintentional pun?
ieverhart
2013-10-28 13:23:57
It is pretty.
neilmd
2013-10-29 20:48:58
Drove home from the Mon valley this afternoon and went by Canton and Boustead (had not visited them before). I expected Canton to look like a climbing wall, so I was surprised that visually it is not that intimidating. It is so very short. Boustead on the other hand is just bad ass. I am currently very intimidated by that hill. I searched around for Boustead on the forum and came upon the "how hard are they?" thread from last year, and I must say I was a little surprised by the "why would you want anything more than a 26" discussion (other than the machismo). Quite simply, with a compact 50-34 and a 32-28-25-23-...11 (Sram) that 34:32 lets me SIT DOWN on most of the hills. Anything below 22% or so and I am mostly to entirely seated (on the first 4 last weekend I stood only for the steep pitch on Berry Hill -- the pretty part). Below 18% or so and it is possible to take a blow. Add to that for me it is my arms that blow up before my legs (I think some of that is (lack of) technique), as others also pointed out on that thread, and again being able to sit in the saddle is a big deal. That would basically not be true (for me) without the granny (I am AARP eligible...). My objective is making the hill, not making it fast (at least at first). I love that 32...
neilmd
2013-10-30 18:02:37
Boustead is fine, fun even. You will stand, but it's so short you're not going to wear yourself out.
byogman
2013-10-31 11:39:53
Canton takes a lot of skill to ride up in my opinion. You run out of momentum pretty quickly if you are running a low gear. I generally won't even use my lowest gear on Canton.
tetris_draftsman
2013-10-31 11:49:14
If you're not competing for points, let the dust settle before attempting Canton, there's always riders taking down other riders (not intentionally obviously). A bunch of people snap chains the first go around too.
rice-rocket
2013-10-31 12:49:33
Did reddan get Canton on the recumbent ever?
tetris_draftsman
2013-10-31 13:53:59
Did reddan get Canton on the recumbent ever?
Nope. Crashed lots, flipped a couple times, once rolled it so badly I made the bike unfixably unridable and had to beg a ride home. Current plan A (not this year) for Canton is fat low-pressure tires and try slightly higher gearing. Plan B is a recumbent trike; per Danny, that's legit, so long as it keeps moving forward at all times.
reddan
2013-10-31 14:16:21
I don't know how you could possibly keep a front wheel down on Canton with a recumbent. I mean, more power to him if he has. I'll just say I had my own center of gravity issues just riding an upright hybrid with panniers. My front wheel came up immediately and no matter how far over the bars I tried to lean and I could not get it down. I was too afraid of falling over backwards to keep pedaling. I'd say the hill laughed me off, but I stopped so soon, I don't think it even noticed my presence.
byogman
2013-10-31 14:16:40
Boustead has thus far been the upper limit of successfully keeping the front wheel down on steeps, and the front does feel awfully light there. Canton gets me because I start bouncing on the bricks, and once the front hops even a little bit, I'm pretty much done.
reddan
2013-10-31 14:29:40
Hm, is the Unicycle an answer to Canton?
mikhail
2013-10-31 15:41:22
On a 8" wheel, maybe.
rice-rocket
2013-10-31 16:40:14
The son of a friend of mine, Greg Roberts in Boulder, does this. I'm pretty sure he could go right up.
neilmd
2013-10-31 17:05:59
My taint hurts from just watching that.
rice-rocket
2013-10-31 17:14:23
rice rocket wrote:On a 8? wheel, maybe.
C'mon, you can always put longer cranks there! :) BTW, A lot of people do it on something like 32-32 which is ration one-to-one and in this case it's to ration wheel-to-crank. As we know, for road bikes its 700c/2=350 to 172/172.5/175 mm ratio. :) So it should be doable on 700c wheel with 175 mm crank.
mikhail
2013-10-31 17:37:49
I love the dog at the end...
neilmd
2013-10-31 18:18:02
Mikhail wrote:Hm, is the Unicycle an answer to Canton?
A penny farthing ridden backwards perhaps?
byogman
2013-10-31 18:31:31
I went out to Canton yesterday afternoon, but couldn't figure it out. Now matter what I did, it felt like my bike as about to rear up and stop, and I couldn't keep going. Any advice? I have a standard road bike -- I guess a mountain bike would be better, but I can remember lots of road bikes making it up last year. I've got a handle on the other hills, but Canton terrifies and baffles me.
jonawebb
2013-11-04 08:53:22
In my experience, you have to do two things: - forward enough over the bars so that you don't flip backwards - butt back enough over the back wheel in order to maintain traction If you can master it on long steep hills like Suffolk and Eleanor-Barry-Holt, then you should be OK on Canton. Canton is a brute force thing. It is about keeping a minimum of momentum, which due to the cobbles and the contact patch that gets interrupted as a result, can be tough. I have climbed it numerous times in dry conditions on my road bike with 23mm tires without dropping the pressure in them. With a compact crank (50-34) and an 11-28 cassette, I need to be in the 2nd last ring in the back to have enough torque to keep some momentum. Also, taking a running start never hurts. Here is a video I took during the summer. https://vimeo.com/68581901 Ken
ktrueman
2013-11-04 09:37:27
For Canton you really really need to be low and over you bars otherwise you'll pull up. Then you just need to keep pumping the legs, never stop. Ken's rights, it's a mix of brute force and also picking a good line. Once you get it, you get though:)
sarapgh2
2013-11-04 09:59:47
Keep your cadence the same. I had a problem last year with the front wheel pulling up or the back wheel spinning out. I couldn't get my weight in the right spot most of the time at 34-28 (I sit and spin on most of the other hills at 34-25). I was finally able to get it at 34-32. I spun like crazy and it felt super slow but somehow in that gearing I got my body positioned in the right place. I also dropped my pressure (running 25s).
stefb
2013-11-04 15:08:48
Anybody ever gone up N. Main St in Braddock. On my list for most inappropriately named streets ever. I go along Jones on the uphill side often. Looks like high 20% to me, plus you could mow it...
neilmd
2013-11-18 18:42:58
Nope but, Main street looks pretty crazy! Haha, will have to remember that one and give it a try someday!
igo
2013-11-18 21:52:40
On Saturday I'm going to do most of the course, probably stopping somewhere in the Southside before the last couple hills. I'll be starting at 11am at Butler and 46th St if anybody is interested in joinin me. I'll be doing a medium to fast pace and I'm happy to ride at others' paces or take short brakes when desired. I'll probably fugde the route in Beechview so we can still hit the hills but minimize our time on Saw Mill Run and Banksville.
ted
2013-11-20 21:43:46
What's the best time to show up at Canton or Boustead as a spectator?
rustyred
2013-11-27 09:31:39
Good luck to all of you hard core folks who are participating!
ericf
2013-11-27 10:00:21
Stuck at work. Booo. See ya at the after party.
pbeaver
2013-11-27 11:40:26
Congratulations to everyone who took part. Thanks to Danny Chew, and everyone who makes this cool event happen. It is great to have this in Pittsburgh.
ericf
2013-12-01 05:50:00
Again, wanting to do this next year...
lou-m
2013-12-02 16:49:23