BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

i'm sorry. i'm glad she's ok. i think i posed this in some other thread, but i am NOT pleased that i cannot safely ride my bike to the gym over in bakery square when it is literally a mile away. i have to drive over. it fails.

amazingly we just had this discussion last night when stef wanted to ride to the gym. glad i won the argument, and glad you guys are ok. i forwarded this to dowd to make sure it stays on his radar.

Thanks dude.

And tonight we're riding to Free Ride... like gluttons for punishment. We'll see how it goes.

what i've noticed is that when "bike" is mentioned in a 911 call, there is little, if any response. i use "vehicle". ie: "these kids just ran out into the street in front of my vehicle and threatened to attack me but i got away."

Hey when you go over to Free ride tonight, see if you can talk to some of the neighborhood kids that go there.

What?.

no I'm sorry,

Post a link and call Patrick Dowd

um. what?

This is just one of those situations where nothing will be done until it's too late (either someone getting injured very badly/killed.Or someone decides to take the law into their own hands and hurts one of these kids...Then there will be a whole other set of problems..

CPollack,

That is what I was trying to say before.

@CPollack I think that kind of goes along with what DannyP was saying

The neighborhoods have been problematic for a long time, it's just now they're picking on cyclists, but we're not in a position to bring about societal change IMO, or we're not willing to invest the time to make that happen

What about going into E. Liberty on a Saturday afternoon and setting up a Bike Repair Clinic, maybe in one of the vacant lots right on East Liberty Blvd. Fix some bikes, maybe give away some bikes. Get to know some of these kids. I'd invest some time in that.

we actually talked about this at the ctg meeting. from the feedback i got there it seems like a lot of people were into the idea. we just need someone with the time to organize it. whatever we do in the area, it would be a good idea to try to work with the major taylor club as they are already well connected in the community and will know who we need to talk to about what and add a lot of credibility to our efforts in the community. the suggested locations were the home depot lot, the shady giant eagle lot, outside of performance, right at peabody, the kingsley center or one of the abandoned lots that abound in central east lib.

I'd be willing to invest some time. These kids live on the lower rungs of society. probably. economically disadvantaged. They're most likely lashing out at the gentrification that's taking place in East Liberty. The most obvious symbol of this gentrification being a big ass bike lane through their neighborhood. Take out a road and put in a bike lane so these over privileged white people can ride their damn fool bikes. Where do you suppose these kids got their attitudes about bikes. My guess is there parents bitching about damn fool bikes and the requisitioning of a road in their neighborhood for the specific use of bikes ridden by people who don't live there. Just a theory. You can call 311 and you can call Patrick Dowd. Or you can try and figure what's pissing these kids off. Maybe show them bikes are alright, as are those that ride them. Get those kids some bikes, they might relate.

over privileged white people can ride their damn fool bikes

You think there's a racial element to these attacks?

From what I've heard regarding the bike lane on ELB, people are pissed not because it's gentrification, but because they lost their mini-highway through that neighborhood. That's not say some people don't see the lanes as a symbol of gentrification, but I think the issue is less philosophical than that.

I would say if you look at the people who are doing the gentrification, they're mostly white. If you look at the people being displaced they're mostly black. I tend to view it at some angry kids lashing out. Perhaps someone else has some insight into why kids would be attacking cyclists, all white as far as I know. I'd be glad to here another viewpoint as to why this is going on. Do these kids really just hate bikes? or is there an underlying social factor?

They lost something, as in, it was taken from them, Who would it appear took it? the most likely target would be the cyclists who use it.

In my experience, yes, there is some racially-motivated crime. Why are white cyclists targeted? Well, because there aren't many white pedestrians using ELB or Highland Avenue late at night. It's also important to remember that there's a lot more crime and violence in that community than is reported by the police. Check out the Zone 5 blotter, and a lot of that is not racially motivated.

I'm sure there are some people who are pissed about gentrification. I would be. But based on the complaints heard by some people with their ears to the street, quite a few people are upset because of the road diet. Perhaps some of these hear their parents complain about this?

timito, in case you haven't been following this, or the news, cyclists aren't the only people getting attacked in East Lib. It's just getting the most news attention right now.

you know, only about 40% of the residents of EL drive to work.

I think it could very well be partially racial and partially just kids dicking around.

I remember riding by the Kingsly Center during last years keg ride and the young kids calling the ride racist, and saying things like "look at all the white people on bikes."

But then there are also kids who throw bricks and buckets of paint on to highways from bridges.

Kids do stupid shit until they get caught doing it. There is only so much work we can do as outsiders.

Kids do stupid shit until they get caught doing it. There is only so much work we can do as outsiders.

Indeed.

I definitely think the kids are getting ideas from their parents, It seems most of the attackers probably aren't old enough to drive and no one will buy them a bike. That's why I propose some sort of community bike day, Like I said I know there's good kids there, I've met them.

Give away and fix some bikes, right where this bullshit is happening. I think it's a better idea then riding over there and smashing in faces, which I've considered.

Kids get caught and they still do stupid shit, some of them do stupid shit until they die or get thrown in prison, where most of them continue to do stupid shit. Education makes a difference, change there attitudes, they're behavior will change.

I realize others besides cyclists get attacked in EL but the only time I'm there I'm on a bike, so that would be my concern. Only about 40% of people in EL drive to work? I think only about 40% have jobs.

I don't consider myself an outsider, I'm in East Liberty several times a week, I have friends there.

You don't consider yourself one. But unless you grew up there you are most likely considered one.

MTCC and VO did a community bike day at the Kingsley Center just last week (I think, maybe it was the week before).

probably the best thing we can do as a group is offer our time and energy to help them do more of those and help staff them.

@rsprake, I'm considered an outsider wherever I go, arguing semantics seems a bit off topic, as an outsider I have no idea what MTCC and VO are?

timito, I live in east liberty, and have their latest community demographics report about employment, income, race, etc in my house at home. Your assumption that only 40% of us have jobs is incorrect. Many of us work near to where we live, and many people of low income levels take the bus. the person attacked on ELB was attacked by kids who were on bike.

MTCC= major taylor cycling club and VO= venture outdoors, two large get-outside-learn-have fun orgs in Pittsburgh. where do you live that you consider yourself an outsider but make so many assumptions?

I believe I made one assumption, pertaining to the rate of employment. The cyclists attacked were white, the attackers black, this is not an assumption. I think also the cyclists didn't live in the neighborhood and the attackers most likely do. This IS an assumption, though I believe it correct. Cyclists are getting attacked. Why? I think to reach an answer to this question a certain amount of assumptions are going to be made. Pardon me If I make a few, or perhaps even some generalizations or, god forbid an incorrect, impertinent aside.

Not arguing, just assuming what the neighborhood thinks of newcomers.

^+1 for PMTCC. As a new member who's been riding with them a couple of months now I can tell you that these are a super cool bunch of folks. They're doing a gentle ride out of the new Performance store at 7:30pm Friday, June 18th. Come out and join the fun.

I love being an 'outsider'. It gives me the opportunity to learn new things and meet new people. Much of which would not happen without my two wheeled friend.

Ride on!

The (Friday night) route will include the East Liberty Blvd bike lane, Highland Park and Frankstown Ave.

I know what they think of newcomers, some of them anyways, they're attacking them as they ride through on bikes.

I think pittsburgh in general has a rather restrictive view of what constitutes "local". I've lived here for 27 of my 30 years. I get asked _every_ time I meet another born/raised "real" local "you're not from here, are you?" True, I have no yinzer accent, I don't care about sports teams, I don't drink Bud or IC (or anything, for that matter). But I know some parts of town well enough to navigate in my sleep, I can quote Paulsen and Kren(sp?) from the 80s, I remember when Quinn from when he was sane and WRRK played classic rock, I give "Pittsburgh directions" (turn where the wendy's used to be, you can't get there from here but if you cross the river...). I'm an outsider within three sentences of meeting a "real" local.

I'm a 27 year veteran at being a newcomer. I'm not saying you are timito, just that in Pittsburghese, the word has a perplexing twist I'll never understand. Some people are locals within 5 minutes of walking in. Some were born "foreign" right at Magee's. Maybe it's just me. But I've heard the same from other long-time residents.

Another angle: Sometime in the last week or so, somewhere else on this board, one white girl was relating how her black roommate was reading a book called "Things White People Like", or some such, and listed in it was riding bicycles.

Go to any of our rides and look at ourselves. Why is it that we are so white? Sure there are plenty of single-digit-young black kids on bikes, but they turn 14-ish, they stop riding. Where are the black commuter cyclists? Where are the swarms of two-wheeled black twentysomethings of either gender?

Is it money? Can they not afford to get decent road bikes once they outgrow the 16" single-speeds they had as small children? If so, then timito is on to something.

Is it education? How many of us white folks on bikes have at least one college degree? Do you really need a college degree to ride a bike?

Is it fear? Do they fear black-on-black crime, of themselves getting the crap beat out of them by the same punks that have been terrorizing us of late?

I could go on (poor health, no wanderlust, etc.). But it somehow seems cultural, something that's engraved or ingrained, that once you become an adult-sized black person, you stop riding a bike.

All of the above are assumptions, of course, but I haven't seen it discussed yet.

Stu your points about education and culture really resonate with me. I grew up with my professional father biking to work (occasionally) because he *wanted* to. He enjoyed it and I learned by his example that bikes aren't just for kids and people who either can't afford a car or lost their lisence to DUI. I didn't learn about that more negative bike connotation until much later.

Looking at the photos in the blast from the past thread, I think many of us, myself definitely included, are, or were at some time, giant dorks. I suspect riding a bike isn't considered "cool" in many cultures, not just for kids in the East End. I'm glad some of us just don't care how cool we are.

You get a little of this vibe when you roll through the South Side at 10 pm on a Friday night. The drunken frat boys do their best to tease us, as if we're in high school or something. There is no shortage of "hey look, a biker gang, hahahahahah!" and "Lance!" with plenty of pointing and such. I get the same thing from the hick in a pickup truck that yells "get a car!". They all view biking as stupid, silly, or something for the dorks to do.

Fortunately, I think this view of cycling is changing everyday. As cycling becomes more mainstream, I think such words and acts aimed at cyclists will be fewer and fewer. At least that is my hope.

+3 for Dwillen

When I was in high school I was the only regular cyclist to school. All my peers either drove, rode the bus, or walked. Irregardless of race, riding a bike was considered lame.

I also regularly see older African American men riding bikes. I can't say I've encountered swarms of white twentysomethings outside of CM, and even then they seemed to be all from the leftist wing of Pittsburgh, not people in the mainstream.

Uh, there's that part of cycling were you kinda exercise - you know sweat. Not much of that happening in the whole country as far as most people I see.

I think looking at labels is only going to dig us into a deep-deep-hole.

I am a non-white college drop-out (I was actually kicked out after my 3rd year and got re-instated), but I was raised by white people, so that makes me white right? If so, what does color really have to do with it?

Honestly, I find it extremely aggravating to watch most of the people on here talk about issues concerning prejudice and racism (which is why I have tried to stay out of it).

I have been lured out of a building before to a circle of 15-20 people with baseball bats and tire iron who wanted to "kill me" because "chinks don't belong in their town". I have had bottles thrown at me on the street by strangers who have called me a "chink" or a "gook" and have told me to "go back to where I came from".

I have had teachers in high school as me if I could speak Chinese/Korean/Japanese (just because I'm "Asian"). I have had college professors single me out in classes when topics of Asian culture come up, to ask me what my input was (as if I were a member of that society).

I have received numerous letters of hate mail claiming that I "didn't belong [here]" or that I "should go back to where I came from" or they will "take care of me".

This past winter, I offered car help to a group of kids with car trouble by REI, they said, "yea, sure" until they looked up from underneath the hood and said, "never mind, you are a Chinaman, you don't know sh*t about cars" (Chinaman is a derogatory term).

When I worked in a parts store I constantly had people telling me I couldn't answer their problems because they weren't "working on no Jap car" (Jap is also derogatory)

I could go on forever with these stories, but honestly, it upsets me to even think about them.

My point is, color has nothing to do with it, and being a victim of prejudice does not give you the right to assault other people. If any of these attackers get hurt, you won't hear any pity from me.

After everything I have been through, have I ever lashed out on white people (since they are the source of my hardships)? No.

Everyone has free will--no part of their situation is forcing them to attack people. Blaming it on class/race/gentrification/education is just a cop out--the problem is parenting.

Dan, I think those 'frat boys' on E. Carson are only the majority on E. Carson.

My new neighbors (who were/are those meathead/jock kids in high school) ride bikes to work and around Frick. They actually did say something mockingly the night of the first FOC, but it turns out it wasn't meant to be aggressive or offensive, it was just commentary on seeing 30 bikes on my street.

Also, my sister and her boyfriend (drunken frat boy type--(sorry if you see this, but it's kind of true)) ride bikes around and will actually be joining us on FOC tomorrow. His frat has also helped me look out and take care of the ghost bike on Meyran and Louisa.

I really think the constant labeling is hurting us.

I don't think everyone has the "bikes are lame" mentality, even if it may seem that way.

I mentioned it before, but the guy who runs PittSpeed.com (Pgh's big car forum), is a cyclist, and I know several other people on that board are too--bmx, road, MTB, custom Schwinns...

Yes, there are plenty of biker-friendly drunken frat boys. I was just suggesting the microcosm of drunken frat boys on Carson street likely aren't among them, at least from what I've witnessed. I have nothing against any group, frat boys included.

I'd be willing to bet you would have a very difficult time finding a frat boy at UC Davis that didn't own and routinely ride a bike, but cycling is considered "cool" there. That is the message I was trying to get across in my post.

Your UC Davis comment, just reminded me of something else. The climate and terrain of Pittsburgh isn't exactly conducive to cycling for beginners. How much less cycling to do you notice in the city when winter roles around?

I'm thinking of University of Arizona where it seems like there are hundreds upon hundreds of bikes, but the terrain is flat and it rains like three or four days a year.

Dan, cycling is cool here. It's you that isn't cool...

I can't tell you how many times I have had someone pull up next to me, roll down their window, and as I expect an insult or to be scolded for riding on the road, they have said, "Cool bike! That a fixie?" Though, this only happens on my neon green "bike" fixed gear bike.

In fashion they say, "It's not about what you wear, it how you wear it." (Don't ask.)

I think it's the same in cycling. If you ride a bike like a dork, biking is dorky. If you ride cool, biking is cool.

It has a little to do with the terrain, sure. It is flat as a pancake there. And compared to Pittsburgh, the weather is good, but Davis doesn't exactly have the best weather in the world. In the summer, 110+F days are not at all uncommon. In the winter, a day in the 40s and 30s isn't unheard of and the rain doesn't help that cold feeling. When it rains there, it is a constant, drizzle all day thing, not like the little showers we have here where you wait 10 minutes and the sun comes back out.

I think it is more of a cultural thing. You are a minority in the city if you don't ride a bike, not the other way around. The amazing infrastructure helps get more people out there, but they had to start somewhere, just like Pittsburgh. Both the cycling population and attitude towards cycling must grow alongside the infrastructure.

I hear everyday how uncool I am, and that is from someone I live with. No surprise there

Like I said, the viewpoint that some people hold about cycling being dorky is quickly vanishing. I think a lot of that is because of more and more people getting out there riding bikes. Some of them ride bikes with bumpers, some ride a bike on a bike.

I'm not worried about all the people who think riding bikes is cool, we've already won their hearts. But going back to Stu's question, why aren't all the people who are currently hating on bikes, not out there riding, or at least, not out there not hating? My opinion is, in their particular culture, amongst their group of friends, riding bikes is not cool. Sorry I stuck labels on it before. It goes for anyone that yells something negative, threatens me, drives me off the road, etc. I guarantee they aren't hanging out with a bunch of people who love bikes on the weekend.

I think they aren't riding bike because they haven't been introduced to it. I try to keep spare bike around (of various sizes), so I can invite people to join me riding. It's hard to not like cycling once you do it.

Like I said about our safety on the road, we need to go out, as individuals, and engage our friends/family/co-workers/customers. I don't think a day goes by that I don't try to push someone into cycling.

(That guy with a bike on a bike--I hear he is very cool...)

This thread got me thinking, so I posted on Facebook asking why people don't ride bikes. A popular trend has appeared-- people just don't know how.

I never thought about it, but as a kid, if you have no one to teach you, you will never learn and never experience how much (cool, non-dorky fun) it can be.

I can definitely see this being a big contributor in lower income areas where kids don't get to spend a lot of time with their parents (broken families, parents work too much, etc).

I wonder how many people that knock on bikes know how to ride them...

people just don't know how

That's where I was a few years ago. Never rode as a kid, was always afraid of falling over or looking goofy (hah!) as an adult.

It took my buddy getting his first 'bent, and inviting me to head out the Montour on his old Cannondale, before I was willing to give it a try. 15 miles, two falls, and legs in agony...never looked back.

In hindsight, a lot of my unwillingness to even think about riding was just plain old fear of embarrassment.

Nick, thanks for those stories. Those experiences suck. This has already been discussed a lot, and I don't want to drag it much further, so let me try and tightly condense where I'm at.

I'll bet the people who said/did those things looked a little like me, middle class white dude, or their kids, or whatever. Somebody said something to the effect of, you can't bring change to a community from the outside. So true. So, if there's such a thing as a "white" group, I'm part of that, and if people are doing things like that, that's f'ing bullshit and I need to be responsible to try and change things. It's so easy to say, Oh, I'm not like that, I'd never do that. But if I'm with a bunch of people and someone throws out some idiot racist comment or joke because they think they're in a safe little in group, and I don't point out their ignorance, then, yeah, I'm just like that. It's hard to say something in those circumstances. But when I hear stories like that, and get to know people who have had to put up with shit like that, and it infuriates me, then it's that much less likely that I'm going to let somebody slide with the next ignorant idiot comment when it comes up. So, I want to hear those things.

That's about as condensed as I could get that.

When has Quinn ever been sane?

Every year as the school year ends there is a big spike in crime activity in the East End. The police have been very, very busy the past few nights in the blocks between East Liberty Boulevard and the park. The blocks surrounding the Food Co-op have always been tough at night. Bike or no, white or no, it is best to be aware and very cautious when out in the evening in the area right now.

I think its funny that white liberals are completely surprised that there are ignorant racist idiots in the hood. Also the mentality in the ghetto is to victimize who ever won't or isn't capable of fighting back. So yeah as long as kids there think that skinny white guys who look funny aren't going to defend themselves they will attack them.The only real solution would be to fight fire with fire and get a bunch of dudes with baseball bats to find the assholes who've been hurting their friends and return the favor.

Oh and if there was a recent wave of white youths attacking and injuring black people for being in their neighborhoods most of you would be up in arms. You wouldn't be trying to reach out to them and make them accept you.

Riding a bike is definitely a privilege, even if in the end it becomes the "Thriftier" option. At least you have the option.

I am a young white cycler and bike everywhere, but you would never know that I only learned to ride a bike freshman year of college when my bf at the time was patient and nice enough to buy me a bike on craigslist and spend the time to teach me how to ride, as my parents never taught me nor bought me a bike. Since then I have acquired another bike, a much better one, but that too was passed down from a friend who moved away.

Point being, many people don't bike because they don't know how, they are scared, and/or they cannot afford a bike. And even if they could afford a bike, they might not think of it as an option, because it never was for them in the past.

Going Warriors with a baseball bat gang is nothing but a fantasy at best. The truth is, plenty of kids in this area carry guns, and they use them. There have been at least three shootings in the last few weeks. The people who live in the area don't want an escalation of violence. Bike folks are not going to be safer if you're walking around with bats and kids are taking potshots at you.

Also - as incidents increase, there will be more police patrolling the streets. You think they're going to let you walk around looking for "hood" kids to whack on? Bah...

They let "hood" dudes whack on bike dudes.

It's interesting that riding a bicycle is considered a privilege. Bicycles are the primary mode of transportation for millions of people around the world, including plenty who are likely less privileged than some of the poorest in this city. Our culture has made cycling seem like a privilege because it isn't viewed as a viable transportation by most of the population.

Certainly there are some people who don't have the option of purchasing a bike at all, in many of those cases, I suspect the person has made different choices that doesn't allow it to be an option.

And to potentially add weight to the "it isn't about race" idea, rocks were thrown at us with the MTCC from N Betty next to Peabody, so even with a more diverse group we were targeted. Stuff was also thrown at us from the playground at Frankstown and N Dallas.

Hah! Gentrification, race, privilege? Its jerk kids being jerk kids. I promise if you ride past 4 white teenagers in churchill they will pull the exact same shit.

Hormones, boredom, and group mentality are the unfortunate result of the 13 to 19 year old learning to function in the world. I would be amazed if these kids were aware or gave a crap about the bike lane or gentrification as some sort of honky invasion, most likely they saw a chance to swing their metaphorical wangs at someone and took it. The same as we did as teens.

The solution, in my opinion, is enough of a police presence to make hanging out there not fun (im not suggesting marshall law, just a few drive bys by a cruiser an hour for a couple weeks) and enough bikes riding through the area that it becomes something in the background of their lives and not worth noting.

Oh yeah, and for whatever it is worth, when I stopped and said "Hey!" swinging my own metaphorical wang, they walked off.

Hey, Hermie, were you out on the flock of cycles ride last night? What were you riding there, buddy?

Hermit, I don't think your broad generalizations, judgments, and labels really go that far to offer a contribution to the conversation.

bjanaszek has a very good point. I think the kids who joined us on the ride last night as we left Homewood into Wilkinsburg proved that cycling really is only seen as a privilege is you want to see it as such.

Ok, Hermaphrodite, how bout this. Us chickenshit libbies will go into the deepest heart of the hood, armed with nothing but bikes, you go in with your baseball bat, and after, we'll discuss and compare notes, K?

Done, your turn. Let us know what you come up with.

Let's all extend some courtesy to Mr. Hermit. He's new here. Just because he adheres to a rigid ideology doesn't mean he isn't entitled to his opinion.

Besides, would it surprise anyone if he was involved with the Pintek show to come into these boards and stir things up so Mr. Pintek could harvest some responses and paint us in an unflattering light?

Dude, believe me, that is me being courteous. I took many deep breaths last night and slept on it with some difficulty before posting anything.

I never said he wasn't entitled to his opinion, I just want to hold him to his own suggestion.

Wow edmnds you really get angry at opposing opinions! I'm sure your mass bike ride will accomplish nada. I really don't have a vested interest in making those streets safe. I possess enough street smarts enough to know where to go and where I'm gonna have a target on my back. The fact is rough neighborhoods area place where the only real respect is that of physical retaliation. and the only people who don't get messed with are the ones who people are somewhat afraid of. Liberals suffer under the delusion that they can go to the hood and and have a positive impact on the attitudes there. Then they are surprised when they really aren't accepted in the community. That people are as bigoted as any redneck and ten times more violent.

So you know, "that people"? And you've lived in one of these neighborhoods? That's so awesome, we should have just asked you.

And you know all the liberals? Did you get a hold of one our secret phone books? Dang.

We rode through Homewood, Homewood west, I don't even know where, I never felt like I was in any particular danger. I talked to a couple of people on the street, they seemed alright. I just don't accept the culture of fear that idiot wingnuts push in order to maintain divisions in society to their political benefit.

And it's not so much opposing opinions that makes me angry as it discussion of going after other human beings with baseball bats. Yeah, that bullshit makes me angry.

So go live in your cave with your target on your back and don't dare tell me what my own delusions are you fucking asshat.

SO the concept of hurting some dude who hurts others makes you angry?

This board only has two rules, one of which is "be constructive".

H; absolutely. Vengeance isn't justice. Violence perpetuates violence. This is the real world, this isn't "24".

Apologies to everyone excepting "our hero". I'm done on this issue.

"I know there are people in this world who do not love their fellow man, and I hate people like that!" -- Prof. Tom Lehrer on National Brotherhood Week (from the LP "That Was The Week Year That Was").

Here's a video of Lehrer doing the tune.

P.S. How do you do strike-through text, if it isn't using the strike, strikeout, strikethrough, s or del tags?

don't feed the trolls, guys.

P.S. How do you do strike-through text, if it isn't using the strike, strikeout, strikethrough, s or del tags?

The board's software strips most HTML tags (besides IMG, EM, STRONG, BLOCKQUOTE).

You'll have to use the old skool unix way:

Week^H^H^H^HYear

off topic also, my gravatar isn't working. i have no clue why.

Yeah, don't feed the troll.

@ everyone:

advocating for violence is unacceptable on these forums.

don't waste your time arguing with me on this.

I am down to give a day out of one of my weekends to go set up with a bunch of people in a parking lot, have a neighborhood ride thru, cookout, tune up some little kids bikes, maybe even invite some BMX riders to do some tricks? Ever do a trick for a group of kids? They instantly are your best friends. We need to show these kids we aren't some 'rich white people' or whatever the term being thrown around is.I lived in some bad neighborhoods before,and have seen my share of not so nice places..Not sure what i am getting at, but i say we plan a day or two, gather up some young kids,teens if we can and fix their bikes, grill some dogs, play some music, and just have a fun day. The earlier you show these kids how fun bikes can be, the more likely they will stick with it, want one,ride one and not fuck with a person riding through their neighborhood when they see one.

Sorry for my insanely long run-on sentences.I just type how i think..

@CPollak: I think this is a great idea

I won't take credit for it, someone suggested it i am just saying i am down to volunteer/come with!

my personal opinion on most of this situation is that the cops are more afraid to walk on the streets than some of us are. period. they are more "marks" than two wheeled christmas trees rolling down ELB.

pretty sure i heard gunshots while passing through the baum/negley intersection today. you may very well be right, unixd0rk.

i've lived here at stanton/negley for 10 years. being a fairly observant person, i notice things.

like i said. i NEVER see the cops rolling down my street at a rate that they might notice something. i've NEVER seen cops slow-rolling through the area between stanton and ELB between negley and stanton unless you hear gunshots, and you could even extend that to between ELB and the border of highland park.

like i said, this area is a superhighway through the east end for the police... stanton->meadow->frankstown->etc... not a place to patrol and have some bike cops visible. i saw two bike cops riding on stanton about 5 or 6 years ago.

in addition, i've notice no increased police presence since these events started. maybe they are going the undercover route to catch these 8-12 year old "criminal masterminds"?

In some sense, I can understand where Hermit is coming from. When you are alone on the street being assaulted, you have two choices: fight or flight. If you can run, you run but if you can't I advocate the maximum amount of violence possible until you can get away. It's just the nature of those interactions. Violence is the only language that will be understood and is absolutely necessary. . . for that moment.

But that sort of things doesn't actually solve problems. It's merely necessary for survival. To solve things you have to address unemployment issues. Poverty issues. Community infrastructure issues. Society issues. You have to help people. You have to communicate. You have to understand and empathize. You need to teach and learn. You need to be a neighbor. You need to be a fellow human being.

I am as liberal a person as you're likely to meet but I understand too that violence, even extreme violence, has it's place.

i bet hermit wouldn't survive 3 minutes at ELB and Euclid in broad daylight before scampering off back to the 'burbs or his gated community or his padded cell.

Remember when people bash on liberals, that the founders of thsi country were all proud to be called liberal.

If the right-wingers wanted to combat the manifold excess of the left winger, they would do that. Instead, they bash on the founders of the country.

Ironically enough, the right-wingers often try to portray liberals as non-patriot. The fact is that you cannot be an patriotic American unless you are liberal.

George Washington

"As Mankind becomes more liberal, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and liberality."

http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/1274

This is what the right wing opposes. Remember this next time you hear a radio creep rant about socialism and patriotism. Remember this next time a powerful "conservative" tries pass off corporate excess as "basic econimic freedom."

No cherry tree chopping, wooden teeth wearing, hemp growing, slave owning, no lie telling, land surveying general is gonna tell me liberalism is patriotic. Sounds like an evildoer or a Islamic Extremist to me.

"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. . . . corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."

-- U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864

I'm going out tonight on Butler St and it dawned on me that my usual way back up through Morningside and E Lib at night is no longer the best route -- I'll take Liberty I guess.

This whole situation just sucks. It sucks for cyclists, it sucks for these neighborhoods, it just sucks.

Just a warning to anyone that lives or bikes on MT washington. My girlfriend and I were on our way home tonight. We stopped at the Cogos on boggs ave about 2 blocks from our house at about 12:45. She runs in as I stand out front with our bikes. A few seconds later I hear lots of yelling. A group of about 10 kids(white and black) ages 10-14 id say come walking around the corner making alot of noise. Just then a white guy about the age of 20 comes out of the store. At this point the group is right on the edge of the parking lot for the store. They are yelling things to people. The guy that left the store heads across the road after they had passed. They turn around and yell something at him along the lines of "hey fuck you, you white shaggy mother fucker" then turn and yell at me "fuck you on the mtn bike. Then before I knew it about 3 or 4 of them bolted at the guy leaving the store. He ran like hell and I ran into the store and yelled for the cashier to call the police. I ran back out and grabbed my bike and started to head over to help him. At this point I cant see him but i hear him screaming at the top of his lungs for help. When I say screaming I mean screaming. I am now riding to try and get this in view again when I see a car stop up the road where the screams are coming from. Then all the thugs bolted into back yards and ran off. The guy they where going after just kept running and I didn't even get to talk to him. There was also a few people sitting on their porch that heard the screaming for help and told me they saw him run up to his house and get in while the car that pulled up distracted the group. My gf called the cops and we waited a while but no one ever showed up. One cop drove by so we stopped him but he said he had to leave becuase he was heading to the scene of a hit and run. It is now 3 am and the police haven't even called to ask if everything was ok. Oh and I should mention that the cashier at the Cogos told us a group of kids beat someone half to death in the parking lot last week. How come this hasn't been on the news?

Now i have to be scared to walk at night to my neighborhood store. Gotta love it

so, whose dick needs to be sucked before a police officer in this city responds to a goddamn 911 call that doesn't involve a corpse?

i mean... are they THAT understaffed, or is this what they expect people to tolerate day-to-day? i'm sick of hearing my friends getting ignored when they call the cops as i am hearing from blowhards who think the cops should be called every time i *see* a crime that doesn't involve me or my (or anybody else's) property.

maybe i was wrong in assuming that the mention of "bike" got you ignored during a 911 call. maybe they just ignore everything that doesn't fit into some category? maybe they are responding to "cat in a tree" calls? i dunno... [shrug]

seriously, if they can't respond or follow up to simple 911 calls efficiently, how is anything going to get better by involving them? seriously.

this just seems appropriate right now

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ-ldcnhsLY

I wonder if that cop was some kind of accident specialist. Bah, cops are never there when you need them

Honestly there was no mention of bikes to the police at all. When my gf called them she just said some kid was getting chased and attacked. Hell when I asked the guy at Cogos to call the police he looked at me like a had a lobster coming out of my ear. Oh and I should mention that a second cop car drove by, as it did I ran into the road and was waving my arms wildly. They drove right by me like I was invisible. Its a damn good thing there wasn't a group of kids coming after me.

Haha erok, we keep mentioning that song every time something along these lines happen.

In related news, rock throwing middle schoolers are affecting cyclists in Baltimore, MD.

Did anyone catch the news story over the weekend about a young boy who was the victim of an attempted snatch/lure in the immediate vicinity of ELB? It sounded to me like it might have been a luring to an attempted assault or robbery to me, from what I heard. On the order of "hey kid, come here.....I said come here....." Kid ran home. Supposed lurer was desribed as a teen, perhaps on a bicycle (although I might have made that leap myself....)

dude pack heat! easy fix.

in all seriousness...people like what you describe are best treated like dogs.

that is, ignore them and they'll lose interest.

...we've been here before... let's not go here again.

It looks like Swalfoort and CMeyers have also been assimilated by the dbackloverborg. I had to make a gravatar to reassert my individuality.

@lyle whaa?

yeah, you're heads are all very round. just sayin...

I don't see any problem with the gravatar images. Maybe you are experiencing some odd cache issue?

gravitar images are 1000% "odd cache issues"

Im not sure how to take that "dbackloverborg" was i just insulted or complimented?

You were assimilated.

nah i haven't uploaded a picture...my head isn't actually this round haha

Maybe it's just me, then, but for some reason, everyone who has not created their own avatar is showing up with dbacklover's picture instead.

edit: indeed, it was just my browser and not the website. There is no borg. I guess this means I can restore my avatar now.

If you are riding a trail and someone hits you with a rock... you should be leagally allowed to punch them in the face.

Jim, CMeyers, could you please read the rest of the thread first before spewing shit that's already been discussed?

Man I am even more powerful than I thought i was!!!

@joeframbach First off, I NEVER "spew shit". Any response I make (whether humorous or not) are thought out and have a point.

Secondly, a quick re-browse and search for a few keywords relating to what I said give me the implication that I did say something new.

Lastly, there is NEVER an excuse to be that rude. To anyone. Ever.

On a positive note, there haven't been any attacks on cyclists on ELB since early summer.

Also: @cmeyers I think @joeframbach was cross thread referencing on your "people like what you describe are best treated like dogs" idea. There was an issue with someone in the other thread using the term "mongrel". Correct me if I'm reading into this wrong, @joe.

@ everyone:

advocating for violence is unacceptable on these forums.

don't waste your time arguing with me on this.

---

Ever do a trick for a group of kids? They instantly are your best friends. We need to show these kids we aren't some 'rich white people' or whatever the term being thrown around is.

---

But [violence] doesn't actually solve problems. It's merely necessary for survival. To solve things you have to address unemployment issues. Poverty issues. Community infrastructure issues. Society issues. You have to help people. You have to communicate. You have to understand and empathize. You need to teach and learn. You need to be a neighbor. You need to be a fellow human being.

---

I believe if you had read the thread, you would have quoted these same posts, and given a rebuttal. Not just a call for violence or maltreatment.

I just re-read cmeyers posts, he jokingly suggested "packing heat," but it was a joke and he identified it as such. He then said to treat people like that like dogs: "ignore them, and they will go away."

Nothing incendiary there. joeframbach, you might be barking up the wrong tree there.

However, Jim's post about punching in the face does seem to reduce the discussion back to the whole "u-lock" concept, and is not on the face of it very constructive. But on the other hand, maybe he should get the benefit of the doubt, and was merely expressing anger at the situation through hyperbole.

I think we ought all remember, this is a very imprecise medium. It is very easy to not only misunderstand others, but also misrepresent ourselves. We could all do with a few grains of salt.

(Apologies for the soap box).

Treat people like dogs? Incenderates me.

People are not dogs.

It's also bad advice, in my opinion. In both cases.

Ignore a dog and he'll get your front wheel and you'll be down. Ignore violent adolescents in East Liberty and you could wake up in the hospital.

It did not strike me as a well thought out post with a valid point. It scares me the cmeyers has the idea that it was.

@Mick

a) doesn't sound like you grew up with siblings. ignoring works like a charm 95% of the time.

b) er...what is "incenderates"?

a) Siblings? Sure! Of course.

Dogs? No. Juvenline delinquents? No.

But if your sis attacks you on the street? You have it SO covered.

b) Bad spelling.

Ah, the age-old "I can't face the argument so I'll attack an edge-case and other lateral points" argument. Lovely.

Ignoring the problem is not a solution.