Armstrong to be stripped of all Tour de France wins

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cburch
Participant
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It’s also part of the contract you sign when you get your pro license. Retroactive testing exists because the dopers are always one step ahead of the tests. How can you design a test for something that hasn’t been used yet?


Anonymous #

@cburch if it wasn’t used and it wasn’t illegal then making it illegal later should not be retrospectively introduced into the past.

And if it wasn’t used then we don’t know effect of this substance on a body.


jonawebb
Participant
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One of the things that reading about the history of doping makes really clear is that doping was accepted practice until fairly recently. So we could either accept that, and go back to cyclists doping themselves with whatever they want — and they used some pretty awful things, and this was before modern pharamacology — or we can try to stop it. I see the latest investigation as an attempt to change the culture and stop it. So the people who were part of that culture, definitely including Lance, get punished somewhat unfairly because even though what they did was officially illegal (EPO was definitely illegal; they just didn’t have a test for it) at the time, they had to do it to compete, at least at some level, perhaps not as much as Lance, who knows. But that is the only way to stop it. There has to be a cutoff somewhere, and people at that point will get “unfairly” punished. And couldn’t happen to a nicer guy, eh?


mr marvelous
Participant
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I like the decision not to name a winner of the Tours that LA has been stripped of. It would be a mess figuring out who to name a winner.

When I find the link I’ll post it but I read today that the 11 cyclist who came forward to admit doping with LA have also named other cyclist in addition to LA. Apparently the USADA was only interested in LA but passed on to the UCI names of 30+ cyclist that have also been named.


Kordite
Participant
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A Tweet from yesterday:

“If anyone is feeling worthless today, just think, you have now got the same amount of Tour De France titles as Lance Armstrong” #VeryProud

— Chris Rock (@chrisrockoz) October 22, 2012


Anonymous #

Charity Navigator has always given LIVESTRONG high ratings as a charity. Does anyone else feel like Lance’s attorneys and their relentless attacks on everyone prevent you from having any sympathy for Lance? What a mess.


Anonymous #

What was the famous Eddie Merckx quote on doping? Something like ” we took stuff to make us less tired-today they take stuff to make them better” I think Tyler Hamilton also said modern doping was like being on rocket fuel.

I do not think anyone can say if Lance would have won if he had not been doping. Also, I never like when people say “everyone else was doing it” as a justification. That is what the Nazis on trial in Nuremberg.

OK that being said-regardless of what you think of Lance-LIVESTRONG has done some good things. Can a good thing come out of a bad thing?


AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe
Participant
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Finally! Lance = Nazi!

I was wondering how long that would take.

We can all move on now.


Pierce
Participant
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@mikhail

My understanding is that EPO has been illegal all along; they were just micro-dosing to avoid detection. Circumventing the tests != clean / legal


Anonymous #

C’mon now. I am not calling Lance a nazi-just questioning the rationale of “if everyone else is doing it-it is ok”. A number of posts argue that all the doping he did was OK because everyone else did it and I reject that logic. I understand it, and don’t think I can judge the guy, but don’t think that means it is ok. It really bums me out SO MUCH!! This guy really meant a lot to me personally. I am a former BIGTIME Lance fan and a 2x cancer survivor. I would get on my bicycle after different surgeries and think of him when I was only able to ride 1/2 mile. I just wish he had admitted it and didn’t go around attacking everyone who finally DID admit it. I also read the entire USADA report. He definitely engaged in years of threats and intimidation personally and through his lawyers. There seems to be this idea floating around that he is just this great athlete who got sucked into doping innocently, but the report clearly show that was not the case. Sorry if the Nazi thing offended anyone.


AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe
Participant
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(Just taking a good-natured poke – no offense taken. It just seems like with certain message board threads, or “comments” to news stories, that it is only a matter of time before a “Nazi” mention is made…)


cburch
Participant
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@ALMKLM what are you, some kind of Godwin’s Law Nazi?


Anonymous #

@Pierce

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/Resources/Q-and-A/EPO-Detection/

http://www.wada-ama.org/en/About-WADA/History/WADA-History/

“EPO was included in the IOC’s list of prohibited substances in 1990.” But it was in use since at least 1980 (I don’t know when ICU included it into list).

Problem with EPO detection http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_doping#Detection_of_EPO_use, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_electrophoresis, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gel_electrophoresis

is that you have to exclude any other possibility of contamination with proteins.


AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe
Participant
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@cburch: everybody knows Hitler doped…


Greasefoot
Participant
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EPO became banned when the Olympics began to allow all professionals athletes to compete. 1990 sounds about the right time. All professional sports groups and organizations had to agree to WADA testing standards if they wanted to compete.


Adam
Participant
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LMFAO — @atleastmykidsloveme — That is because calling people nazis is listed in the “Liberal Playbook” as what you do when someone disagrees with you.

Calling someone a “Commie” or a “Socialist” when they disagree with you is the “Conservative Playbook” equivalent.


Vannevar
Participant
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Bill Clinton discusses Lance Armstrong’s downfall at Ohio town hall Q&A event.


Anonymous #

Who I feel bad for in all of this. He finished 133rd in the tour he mentions in the article. He’s the true loser from all of this.

http://www.theage.com.au/sport/cycling/how-dopers-stole-the-best-years-of-my-career-20121026-28aif.html


Anonymous #

Jon said: “Yeah, but what are you going to do? If, as it appears, Lance won partly or mostly because he was better at doping than others, well, are you just going to ignore it? “

Yes, you do ignore it because it is too late. What about the ’70s Steelers? The line all benched over 500lbs. Do you know what they were doing back then? What did the NFL do? They put a stop to that stacking of steroids and the NFL did change. There is still some problems, but lets face it, there is no one out there that has Webster’s arms these days. Of course they are all dead, but they didn’t know or whatever. You need to fix the problems ahead and not try and rewrite history. I feel as if the entire experience of watching the Tour back then didn’t happen. A waste of time. That is pretty empty considering I was a huge Jan fan and was routing for him, but enjoyed those races. There are no winners. Those races wasted my time. F them. I am not going to bother with it because they are just going to change the outcome later anyway, so why bother. They lost me as a fan and I am sure there are others that just won’t bother with it.

You need to look forward, not backwards. What about Lance’s Livestrong that he stepped down from? Is that enough collateral damage? Who paid for this witch hunt? Was it worth it? It was personal and stupid.


Greasefoot
Participant
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The TDF has reached the levels of professional wrestling and they should call them self sports entertainment. 

I saw on the evening news the TDF is asking LA to give back all the prize money he won. I recall back in the day he was bragging in interviews that he always spilt his winnings evenly with his team. If this is true all his doping team members should man up & give back the money.


salty
Participant
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gg it’s like those other commercials – “you didn’t see that”. All these years I thought I was standing there in Paris watching Lance win his 6th tour, but I just got a cease and desist letter from the UCI informing me I didn’t actually see it, and I should retract any such statements I’ve ever made to the contrary.


jonawebb
Participant
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I agree with W Roger. I really felt sorry for that guy. But, to be able to compete at that level, and to do it without doping, is pretty impressive. He can hold his head up high.


Anonymous #

I don’t think any of them can hold their head up high. They all did something to win that they shouldn’t have. The whole sport is a joke. Best to enjoy local races, but who knows what goes on with them?


quizbot
Participant
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boostuv
Participant
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I think that picture is hilarious.


Anonymous #

I like the picture. He is a motivated person. Not sure what he is going to do with himself now? Sadly his motivation can’t go towards Livestrong where it was well put to use. Personally, I feel that is bigger than the Tour de France. We are talking about cancer research. Doesn’t get much more important than that.


jonawebb
Participant
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I’m sure he’ll figure something out. Like maybe he could start competing in some sport he’s not yet banned from, which takes a lenient attitude towards doping. Professional wrestling? Could be. Or maybe he’ll just settle down with his money and spend his time defending himself against all the people he’s libeled when they said he doped. The options are wide open for him.


StuInMcCandless
Participant
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He and Tanya Harding should get together. She could coach him skating, he could coach her cycling.


jonawebb
Participant
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They’re not letting him compete in Master’s swimming either.

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