BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

The Butler -Freeport trail is great riding for the first 2/3 of the length, a little rougher (but getting better by the day) at the northern end. It drops you in soueastern Butler, near Fr. Marinaro Park. Getting from Pittsburgh to Freeport would be the challenge.

If you can find a route to North Park from where you are, Babcock and Three Degree roads are nice roads for riding, and they'll take you at least as far north as the Butler County Airport, which is about 6 miles south of Butler.

I'll check our Allegheny and Butler Bike Suitability maps for other ideas. Is Butler your final destination, or just near there?

I'll have to check on the exact location, it's somewhere in the outskirts of Butler though.

2nd on Three Degree Rd. Nice & quiet. Here is a route from earlier this summer using Babcock, 3º, and Old Plank Rd. to get up there. You need to use Rt. 8 for about 500 feet to get to Old Plank from 3º.

Butler's a nice ride. The Freeport trail requires getting to Freeport first (though you could pick it up elsewhere)--not a problem but a bit less direct. Where are you starting from?

I'd take Saxonburg Blvd from Etna. Once you get to Route 228, there are a number of routes that would work--this Route is a good and fairly direct one.

Google maps says "take the trail"

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&source=s_d&saddr=3415+Parkview+Ave,+Pittsburgh,+PA+15213&daddr=Butler,+PA&geocode=FWP8aAId5wU8-ykVAV5Rj_E0iDFujxIrkGFLbQ%3BFfh9bwId2-Q8-ynJdbGV6WIziDFn-3V9fR-fiA&hl=en&mra=ls&dirflg=b&sll=40.434787,-79.952409&sspn=0.006027,0.010128&ie=UTF8&ll=40.638967,-79.880219&spn=0.386613,0.648193&z=10&lci=bike

I'm not sure if I would do that or take the road from North Park. Of course, I've never ridden north of North Park...

Google says 46 miles. The Saxonburg route is 31 miles, so there is more of a difference than I realized in terms of it being "less direct." I've ridden my suggested route as far as 228 dozens of times and the roads on to Butler a couple. It's rolling but nothing terrible.

Whoops--just noticed Mick's starting point is in Oakland. Still, 16 miles.. You only tack on five or so to get to Saxonburg Blvd in Etna. The only hairy part is Route 8 but it's less than a mile.

@jeff - Alnilam lives a couple blocks from my place, so I just used that as the start. Also to inspire him to drop some pumpkin pie off on his way back.

I've found my way up to Aspinwall before, so getting to Saxonburg Blvd shouldn't be a problem. That route seems really direct - 31 miles, wow, I didn't realise Butler was that close!

Then again I might do 3 Degree Road just for its extraordinary name... Also I'm ashamed to say I've never been to North Park, so that'd be a nice stop along the way. So with regards to quizbot's route, is there a more direct way up to North Park, and then I'd follow the rest of that route?

@Mick--Ah, the old Pumpkin Pie ploy. Problem is, Alnilam might get hungry on the way home and have to eat the pie!

My favorite way to North Park esp. if I am going beyond it is to cross the 62nd street bridge--get over into the left lane and exit left from the bridge about 2/3 of the way across and...let me just diagram it:

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=4140326

Zoom in close enough at the start of the map and you'll see the route over the bridge. Also, be aware that the right turn off off Little Pine Creek onto Wetzel is a steep uphill. Shift down before you start up it*. Once into North Park you can just keep straight on Babcock up a long climb out of the park and eventually connect with 3 Degree road in Valencia and take it North from there. (Ignore the stupid little loop at Hemlock and Babcock in the park--the Gmap-Pedometer does these things to be mischevious I think).

*Not that there aren't other hills, but you really don't see this one coming and you can just be tooling along Little Pine Creek thinking "What a nice road" and WHAM!

Bus options: First, 13A/12A to the terminus at Showcase Cinema, then it's a simple ride to & thru NPark. Second, take a "1" or P10 to the end, which isn't too far from Freeport.

Oops, scratch the P10, which is usually on a 45-footer. (Bus 1926 has a rack, but the chances of you ending up with that exact bus for that one trip are minuscule.)

Personally, I'd avoid Saxonburg Blvd as much as possible as it has been ruined by center line & white line rumble divots for the majority of the distance from Etna almost all the way up to 228 / Saxonburg. It is pure suck. @alnilam - where are you starting out from?

@alnilam --3rd for Three Degree and Old Plank Roads. The reason it's called Three Degree Road is becuase it was laid out in the early days of auto travel when the engines would overheat easily. They kept the gradients gentle so the cars could make the hills without overheating. Hence the road grades are no more than about 3% with a few exceptions. Old Plank continues the same way. It will bring you into the SW end of town down the hill via Roosevelt Blvd.

If you can get to Freeport, the trail is a good way up. As Swalfoort pointed out, it brings you into town from the SE. The last four miles are not yet completed, but have been scraped down and are rideable, though slow if you're not on a mountain bike. The trail doesn't yet go all the way to Marinaro Park. You should get off the trail at Loco Lane where Burd Bros Landscaping is, onto Herman Road and into town. You'll see our sharrows.

Alternatively, you could get off the trail at Bonniebrook Road (Summit Twp municipal bldg and the road dept gravel pile), turn left onto Bonniebrook for 1/2 mile (it's a busy and unpleasnt road to ride on), then turn right at the stop sign/intersection onto Herman Road and follow it into Butler.

How you want to go really depends upon where your sister lives.

@Mick -- what JeffinPgh says. Besides, if the pie is really good, and he's burned up all those calories -- well, his stomach made him do it! And you go hungry instead. :>(

JeffInPgh Alnilam might get hungry on the way home and have to eat the pie!

cdavey what JeffinPgh says. Besides, if the pie is really good, and he's burned up all those calories -- well, his stomach made him do it! And you go hungry instead.

This board sucks and I hate it.

there is a whole other thread about how to get to

north park.

I would head north out of it on pearce mill.

red belt. valencia... mars... towards evans city..

then turn up toward 3 degree and take it to meridian...

There are a bunch of options heading to Butler depending on where you're starting from, and what sort of ride you want to have, particularly after you get north of the red belt. North of Mars, Cruikshank Rd. between Rt. 8 & Saxonburg Blvd/228 (ends east around Victory Rd) is a bit of short steep roller work, but a nice scenic treat (intersects with 3° somewhere up there). In general, if you're looking at google map view, avoid the yellow roads & stick with grey...2 lane unpainted roads with low travel... you really can't go wrong out there.

I'd have to respectfully disagree that Saxonburg is "pure suck" but I ride a lot and am not that bothered by cars passing fairly close to me. "Some suck" maybe? Certainly you need to be aware of the bumps and where you are but I've had many a pleasant ride since they cut all those bumps. YMMV. It's certainly no worse, traffic wise, than sections of Freeport Road all the way out to Freeport. I

But Quizbot is right, there are a lot of ways up to Butler. Just avoid Route 8 for anything than a really short length of time, that is PURE suck.

If you're not trying for the absolute shortest route, another fun option is to head out to Freeport Rd (I like ARB to Hulton Bridge, but that's just me), then left on Pearl (becomes Little Deer Creek) up through Russelton to a right on Superior to 908 Ext. Left on Bull Creek, then straight crossing Millerstown onto Thompson, first right on Sun Mine.

Sun Mine eventually becomes Westminster, and dumps you off just outside of Saxonburg at 228. Follow Saxonburg Blvd into town, then a left on Main and right on Butler St(becomes Saxonburg Rd) will eventually bring you into the southeast corner of Butler.

Probably something like 40 miles, depending on where in Butler you're headed.

@Dan's route is a good one. Sun Mine/Westminster is very nice with a good climb or two.

Well, in the spirit of other routes, if you don't mind a bit more climbing, you could also take Middle Road from Etna, when you get to the the 910/Orange Belt. Turn Right and then left on Middle Road extension, left when you get to Bairdford Road. Straight ahead at the red belt. Follow what is now Deer Creek (wave to the Alpacas) then (look at a map before you try this) straight into Monks when Deer Creek goes right, right on Sandy Hill, cross 228 (right then left right away) to Spring Valley, right on Dinner Bell, left on Frazier, follow Frazier to Saxonburg and on into Butler. Probably 35 to 40, not sure. I've ridden all of this, but as parts of other, longer rides.

OT: I once ran into the Saxonburg Hunt on Deer Creek near Monks. Horses, red jackets, baying hounds, people blowing horns etc. No foxes seemed to be at hand but that was definitely one of my odder on-road encounters.

P.S. Butler Freeport Trail rises slowly but steadily south to north. It's a trail, so incline is gradual, but you notice the difference between the level of effort/speed northbound vs. southbound.

The SPC Bike Suitability Maps for North Park can be seen at http://www.spcregion.org/pdf/biketrailmaps/evalmaps/Map20.pdf

You can work your way north to Butler from there by following the links.

@jeffinpgh - ok, I'll go with "some suck", because of the divots, and because it's much less suck on many of the mentioned roads that run north... Middle, Deer Creek, Sun Mine.

A nice route out of Freeport is Bakerstown to Silverville Rd, 356 For a mile or so then jump onto Bear Creek Rd, Star Grille Rd (a little bit of climbing on those 2), Herman, Bonniebrook, Portman, Mitchell Hill Rd - this will bring you to the east side of Butler. From Freeport, it's about 20 or 25mi.

I find Oscar Swan's 'Bike Rides Out of Pittsburgh' (partial pdf) pretty handy when it comes to finding good roads. Amazon link if anyone is interested.

The Bicycle Suitability Maps are another good resource, and cover Allegheny & Butler counties as well as Armstrong, Greene, & Indiana.

Awesome, thanks for the many good suggestions. I'm still playing phone tag with my sister to find exactly what part of Butler she's in (moved recently), and as Mick mentioned I'm coming from Oakland - hopefully with some extra pumpkin pie on the backswing.

- hopefully with some extra pumpkin pie on the backswing

This place is wonderful and I love it.

Take this bike route to Evans City, then head north on route 68 to Butler.

Okay, I've found out more exactly where she lives: Right around the southwest tip of Lake Oneida. It's north of the city, so I guess most of these routes are about equivalent as far as getting me close to her house, as I have to continue on north anyway.

Anyone ever biked on Oneida Valley Rd? Google tells me that's the best way up to her place from Butler, and also it's like the only road.

If I remember right, Oneida Dam is on Rt. 38 - take one of the routes up the Freeport-Butler trail, to Herman, from Herman to 38 (I'm sure you can Google much better directions, but that should get you in the ballpark. I think - it's been awhile).

Oneida Valley Road (Route 38) shows up as being good cycling on the SPC Suitability Maps.

It looks like Lake Oneida is about 6 miles north east of Butler City.

From Route 8 in Butler, head east/northeast on Brady to catch 38. Then just follow that. It appears to be flatter than any of the route options, based on a quick trial routing on bikely.com

If you take the Butler/Freeport Trail options, it dumps you onto Jefferson Street (RT 68). 68 North takes you to 38 North/ Oneida Valley Road.

Following up ALMKLM's suggestion, once you are on Jefferson you will have a short fairly steep hill to go up at the 5-way intersection(Jefferson, Monroe and Kittanning). It's narrow and curbed and not very bike-friendly if you're in traffic. But it's short; only about 300-400 feet.

If you take swalfoort's suggestion about Brady Street, once you are at the top of the hill by Hill UP church (the stone building on your left) I would make right onto 2nd street and go a couple of blocks to Eau Claire, then left on it. It eventually intersects Route 68 and is more direct and flatter than staying on Brady Street.

Whichever way, you're good till you cross the blue bridges and have to make a left onto 38 at the 422 bypass interchange. The traffic engineers get a fail on this one -- it's absymally bike unfriendly. I usually go up the hill and turn around in the exit ramp so I have a straight shot across the highway. (The turn off 38 comming back your from sister's place will be no problem.)

Swalfoort is right. 38 is flatter than anything else in the area. 6 miles is about right. The shoulder is mediocre but usuable. If your sister is far enough north to be in Oakland Township (the south end of the lake is just north of the township line) the shoulder is pretty sketchy once you cross the township line. It's tar and chip but the underlying asphalt is broken up. You'll be riding in the lane at that point.

P.S. Please make Mick happy and bring him back some pie.

Okay, coming back to this. Tomorrow's the day!

I think I'm doing Butler/Freeport trail to 68/Jefferson to 38/Oneida.

So street view looks like there's a sidewalk along the blue bridge, yay (why people slow down in tunnels but speed up on bridges we may never know). But then at that 422 interchange you were talking about, there's not even a sidewalk anymore. Wtf is the point of the bridge sidewalk then?

So cdavey, are you suggesting going straight through the cloverleaf part, and doing the ol' right-then-U-turn approach to making a left when I get to Oneida?

Also, I've biked as cold as like 10F, but never for 4 hours. Do you think gloves + lining will work for 4 hours in 40F weather, or should I grab some chemical handwarmers? If so, any suggestions on what handwarmers are good for this sort of thing?

40 degrees is really not cold at all for biking. you'll generate enough heat to keep you warm. you might be comfortable in a long-sleeved shirt and a windbreaker. that's probably what i would do, but make sure you bring some extra layers in case you get uncomfortable. you don't want to be 20 miles from anywhere and freezing.

ditto HV.

Except that you may find fingers and toes get chilly, depending on what kind of gloves you're talking about. Uninsulated full-finger bike gloves will not be adequate for the entire ride. Liners, maybe. Ski gloves, too hot.

Personally, I'd probably bring my nylon overmitts, just to have.

@alnilam -- there is a sidewalk on the blue bridge but it's on the other side of the road. It also gets really narrow in one spot part way across. You actually don't need to use the walk. Both shoulders on the bridge are wide enough that you should have no trouble using them. It's what I always do.

The WTF reason for sidewalk only on the bridge is time differential. The bridges have been there for at least 60 years. The reconstruction of the interchange at the bypass is 3 years old. Like I said earlier, the PennDOT folks completely blew this one for cyclists when they designed it.

You have the turn onto 38 figured out. Go beneath overpass carrying 422 and start up the hill. You will see two ramps connecting to 422 at that second light. The second is the off ramp from 422 westbound. Do the bear-to-the-right-U-turn in it.

Good luck, safe riding, enjoy the trip. It should be warm enough that you can dress right and be comfortable. And don't forget to bring some pumpkin pie back for Mick so he'll be happy!

Take extra snacks, you'll burn more energy than you would in the warm, and a snickers bar will keep you warmer than those handwarmer things.

I'd take the liners and an extra layer even if you don't need them on the bike, if for some reason you're off the bike for any period of time you don't want to get chilled (lots harder to get warm once cold).

yeah - about gloves...

I recently got full finger "wind resistant" gloves. They were fine, until I went down my first hill. I'm no speed demon and it was about 45 degrees out, but my fingers went shockingly numb (continued on every down hill, regardless of sweat or body heat or ride time) (I'm guessing 15-20 mph wind equivalent?). Do I run cold, was I sold some fiction, or am I missing these "liners" you speak of which should be worn below, on average, (X greater than 40 deg) temperatures? I know my mileage may vary, but I expect wind resistant to resist wind, not fail at a brisk breeze.

ejwme; Women do tend to get cold quicker then men (there is a physiological reason) but the I think that cycling aggrevates this in our hands for both mmen and women. IMHO the act of "gripping" the handle bars restricts blood flow, to a certain degree due to the pressure forcing blood from our fingers (same thing occurs if too many socks are worn - the feet get colder quicker due to restricted blood flow). Snowmobilers use pogies(?). It sort of fits over the grips and there is an opening for your hand. Something like this could be adapted for a bike. I still prefer wearing a liner, full fingered glove (sized larger due to wearing liner) combination. In really cold weather may even add a "wind proof" glove over that.

Numb fingers at 45? How long was the hill? It wasn't from squeezing the bars too tight during the descent?

On really cold days (below 15) I try to not expose my fingers by "hiding" them from the wind- behind the bars, alternating behind my back, lots of movement to promote blood flow.

heh - I wasn't squeezing the bars too tight, I like the hills now I shook them out and tried just holding on with my thumbs, arms inverted, but before I could get it sorted out the hill was over (gee... 300-500 feet? Verona rd. heading down to Sandy Creek from the PH side, from Third down to the light)

Sounds like I might need liners, or something like tabi for hands ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabi )

I have a pair of these and they seem pretty windproof to me, even doing 20-30mph in winter temps.

http://www.ravx.com/2010_product_pages/gloves/wind_x.html

although, i'm hot blooded or something - i don't get cold enough to wear gloves until it's somewhere under 40F. another 5-10 degrees colder and i put on the ear muffs. haven't needed to go to the balaclava yet.

You can make pogies out of milk jugs, or you can buy them from various makers, include Dogwood Designs and BarMitts. I don't like the limited hand positions. I have considered getting a little fairing but I've never done it.

@ejwme I'm a HUGE proponent of glove liners. They improve the performance of your glove a lot. REI sells them, I'm sure other places do as well.

http://www.rei.com/search?query=glove+liners

You should look at them in person though, some of them are too "glove like" in and of themselves to be useful as liners under gloves for cycling.

ejwme, what kind of gloves are those that are not working for you? material, etc?

I found some gloves that are awesome, for me anyway, Under Armor running gloves. I mainly got them because they have big reflective patches on the back, but I wore them last week when it was like 32 deg. and my paws were warm as baby marsupials. I may do a review type thing of them. The gloves, I mean.

A very inexpensive (!) glove liner alternative is the thin fleece gloves sold at most dollar stores. Since their quality (i.e. thinness) is actually an advantage, I use them more than my more expensive liners. Besides you don't feel bad when you lose one. Just make sure whatever you use is either poly-fleece or wool, cotton content will hold moisture.

I believe they are Gore Mistral gloves. the fabric is identified as "windstopper". It doesn't.

I've got some ice climbing gloves with solid reinforced backs to the fingers, segregated by joint for dexterity, monster thick, water proof, even have huge lower arm "sleeves" so no ice falls down your arm when you hang. Those should do the job, I just need to dig them out from my climbing gear. They were just a little more than I was expecting to need for 40 degree weather.

I hate cold hands.

Did the Butler ride happen yet? How did it go? I was going to say I've had luck with the el cheapo little plastic wrapped chemical hand warmer squares and still keep some in the car/backpack for "just in case". They're light weight, cheap, and delightfully toasty (I used to slip them down my climing shoes and in my chalk bag for when my partner convinced me 55 is just fine to hang off windy north facing stone cliffs, digging out pro).

Well, now we're getting into admitting I've spent too much money on cycling clothes, but I find the Italian WindTex fabric to be much superior to Gore Windstopper. I have a set of Windtex gloves from Boure in Durango, Colorado and with liners they are effective until it's really cold (under 35), when I switch to some gloves from Craft.

Thanks everyone, it was a great ride. The journey to Freeport got a bit confusing around Tarentum (I think), but then there's this nice parallel-to-freeport road for a while.

The trail is beautiful, especially the beginning (freeport-side) of it. It was very much the early winter scene, with bare trees and a preponderance of conifers and a lovely stream, and every time there's a tributary stream you can look up it and see a tunnel of conifers stretching off among the bare forest. Anyway that was my experience, thanks for the advice all.

Next time I'll try Saxonburg or 3 degree road!

Edit: Oh and there are like 3 ice cream shops along Freeport Rd that are carbon copies of Page's Dairy Mart, it was weird.