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Commuting in the city with headphones?

Really? Don't. This was at Liberty & 40th inbound the morning of 3.12.12 (yesterday) around 9:15a.




quizbot
2012-03-13 19:02:49

Taking a photo was somehow safer?


mayhew
2012-03-13 19:51:53

This is undoubtedly a still from helmet-cam footage.


asobi
2012-03-13 20:07:02

Its funny that you posted this today, not a hour ago I watched a guy driving with headphones on.


willie
2012-03-13 20:22:38

I kind of envy the headphone wearers. they seem so happy and oblivious to the world riding through potholes up and down penn, friendship and the like.


dmtroyer
2012-03-13 20:23:16

i used to wear headphones while riding, thinking that it was no worse than someone in a car listening to their stereo with the windows up. i could even hear most cars coming up behind me. then i realized that i had more to lose than the guy blasting music in his car, so i stopped. if i want to listen to music now, i use something like this bag-strap mounted cell phone holder or a breast pocket on my jacket and the phones integrated speaker. sure, you lose stereo imaging on the tunes, but you might hear some dipshit in a prius sneaking up behind you in the bike lane.


melange396
2012-03-13 21:34:09

I listen to musicpodcast in my left ear all the time


it's not a problem


Doesn't look like that one is an in-the-ear canal headphone either so he can probably hear what's going on around him


sgtjonson
2012-03-14 00:49:18

What could possibly go wrong?


salty
2012-03-14 00:51:40

I've never felt the need to have every moment of my life accompanied by my very own super special private soundtrack, and earbuds are just one more annoyance I don't need to deal with. But I'm solidly in the pre-ipod generation.


edmonds59
2012-03-14 01:01:44

@salty


And I remember saying that didn't prove anything on a thread related to that accident


sgtjonson
2012-03-14 01:03:29

Edmonds, I feel the same way, though I remember when it was cool to have one of those fancy yellow Sony Walkmans to play your high fidelity cassettes (mix tapes!). Even on the bus, I prefer to listen to the world around me.


As far as headphones whilst riding go, I could never do it. I find that on my regular commute, I know the sounds of the road (a utility hole cover, road surface, etc) and that helps me judge where traffic is. I can't imagine losing that sense to listen to something else.


bjanaszek
2012-03-14 01:35:56

+1 to Edmonds and Brian J. I too prefer to listen to the world around me. On a bike I have an additional, even better reason -- I prefer to stay uninjured and alive. Being able to hear what's going on around me helps me to do that. Plain common sense, I guess.


cdavey
2012-03-14 01:51:01

I would need to know what music this guy is listening to before I pass judgment. 


greasefoot
2012-03-14 02:12:21

Personally, part of the allure of cycling is spending time in my own head-space, free from music, media, email, text, phone calls...


My hearing is dodgy even without headphones - I am certain I would get run over or pull in front of something big and heavy if I rode with headphones in my ears.


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-03-14 02:13:02

Really, dosen't seem like the guy did anything wrong in the video.


b-s
2012-03-14 02:29:51

Even if he did I'm not sure this thread really moves the ball down the field. How would any of you feel if someone anonymously posted your photo with a comment about a perceived infraction?


(and I have direct experience with that having inadvertently made fun of a friend of Scott Bricker's)


Car drivers, I get. A fellow cyclist, not so much.


mayhew
2012-03-14 02:33:59

@B.S.: nothing wrong:


"Title 75 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes contains the laws which govern the operation of vehicles on Pennsylvania roads.


In Pennsylvania, a bicycle is considered a vehicle and, as such, is governed by a general set of rules (common to all vehicles)


75 Pa. Cons. Stat. § 3314. Prohibiting use of hearing impairment devices.


(a) General rule - No driver shall operate a vehicle while wearing or using one or more headphones, earphone, or any similar device which the department by regulation determines would impair the ability of the driver to hear traffic sounds."


To be honest: commuting around the city... 360º ambient sound is probably what you should be listening to. Out doing solo hill repeats on a low traffic hill on a sunday morning, you can probably get away with something in your non-traffic side ear at low volume.


quizbot
2012-03-14 02:55:18

@Chris Mayhew: do you want that guy riding with your sunday bunch? Probably not, I'm guessing. Discuss.


quizbot
2012-03-14 02:58:03

Eh, I haven't said anything on here I wouldn't say right to someone in person. I try to go by that.

Plus, I fully expect that someday I'll get called out on someone's video for something iffy, or just for being a Fred. For ex, the other day, I was stopped right at the foot of Steuben St hill about to go up, and a Verizon work truck with a beautifully placed grab bar stopped right next to me. Oh so perfect. Like BikeDevil was on my left going "go on, that's for you" and BikeJesus on my right saying "no that wouldn't be right". Then Marco Pantani popped up and called me a poosie if I grabbed that bar, that's what finally convinced me.

Back to the thread.


edmonds59
2012-03-14 11:08:42

WELCOME TO 2012!


those white headphones that come on iphones

are also hands free communication devices.


Not saying that anybody mentioned in this

thread is 100% doing this, but if you see

somebody driving with headphones they are

probably using them to talk into.


steevo
2012-03-14 11:41:41

Oh, yeah, that never occurred to me. Yeah, I don't use that function either.


edmonds59
2012-03-14 12:12:38

Hang up & drive! (or pedal or whatever)


quizbot
2012-03-14 12:21:33

People have shown up on our Sunday ride with headphones. I give them a wide berth and a lot of flack to their face.


mayhew
2012-03-14 13:10:11

I ride all the time with headphones (also work, read, walk, drive, play hockey, and sleep with headphones on). Having grown up with them it's never ever been a problem for me. I'm sure I'll get flack for this, but as a headphone-wearer I thought I'd put my two cents in.


sarapgh2
2012-03-14 13:50:49

The most oblivious cyclists, joggers, drivers, and walkers are those who cannot hear because they have their damned headphones in. You may think you can hear well enough but you just can't. There is so much sound gives us when it comes to safety, why shut all of it out? An external speaker will allow you to hear both, hell, even smaller speakers on your helmet will be better.


orionz06
2012-03-14 13:55:42

I used to ride with headphones on occasion, and I did some tests to see if I could hear what I considered the "important noises" around me with and without the music. I didn't think it was all that impairing, but it's probably better to do without.


The thing that inspired me to stop was when I realised one of the best parts about moving by bike was being connected to the community around you. I love striking up conversations with folks on the street, or at least saying hello as I go by.


alnilam
2012-03-14 13:59:07

@alnilam I think you cannot hear a lot of contemporary cars going downhills. Literaly, there is no engine sound, only tires just a little bit. I had more then few cases when passing rider with generous space (I always try to give more then 4 feet and if I cannot safely pass then I would hold the line with traffic until we reach a place safe to pass) and bicyclist just swerved into my path because (s)he was sure there is no car. And every time those riders had ear buds. Usually I try not to honk so bicyclist does not get surprised but in case of ear buds I honk. And I don't care if this particular rider gets shocked and jumps off.


2012-03-14 14:27:59

@ alnilam The thing that inspired me to stop was when I realised one of the best parts about moving by bike was being connected to the community around you


+1


mick
2012-03-14 15:47:41

For me, Riding With Headphones falls into the category: Things I Don't Do, And Don't Particularly Care If Other People Do.


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-03-14 17:01:06

I think the headphone wearers only think they can really hear when in reality they cannot. I once stopped someone to ask directions to a nearby fieldhouse. Their response? "It's 11:45."


Sarapgh- read and sleep? Maybe they can start doing ipod cochlear inplants to directly pump the sound into your hearing without having to go through the ear canal.


helen-s
2012-03-14 17:21:00

helen - I'd love that:) but no "i" products.


sarapgh2
2012-03-14 17:24:59

For me, Riding With Headphones falls into the category: Things I Don't Do, And Don't Particularly Care If Other People Do.


Until they find your way into your life like plastering themselves on your windshield. :D


rice-rocket
2012-03-14 17:46:35

I once stopped someone to ask directions to a nearby fieldhouse. Their response? "It's 11:45."


I actually have this problem without even wearing headphones.


bjanaszek
2012-03-14 18:06:52

@rice rocket: agreed, but then there are a lot of things people do that might result in them being "plastered on my windshield." I still don't think that gives me the right to reprimand them for doing it.


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-03-14 20:25:07

Everything I have ever learned about cycling I learned from this message board. I started cycling in 2008 I didn't grow up cycling like some of you, so when someone posts about bad cycling habits it helps. I have learned in earlier post about earphones, filtering, bike ninja, and countless other bad cycling habits. Thing that can save my life. Why when a driver does something stupid is it ok to post, but every time someone posts about bad cycling behavior it gets a negative reaction. This is a cycling message board and why can't we talk about riding safely. This tread might have saved someones life. How many pics of stupid drivers have we posted, is there a double standard here.


marvelousm3
2012-03-14 23:42:48

Quizbot has posted a video about a car not driving the way he liked (linked in another thread) that got the same mixed reaction.


If he came from the perspective of "Hello, I notice you're listening to your headphones and I'm concerned that you might get into an accident due to not being able to hear as well" I might disagree, but appreciate his concern.


Instead, without knowing any information, he just assumes he is right, this guy is wrong (along with other headphone users on this board) and doesn't even bother communicating his concern to the guy actually wearing the head phones. We already had this conversation, but that guy probably hasn't been exposed to it yet


It kind of reminds me of when motorists who have no experience cycling tell me I'm going to get killed (and I can hear what they're saying, despite my headphone)


Bonus points for listing PA statutes, as if people's behavior is based on laws or anybody actually cares.


sgtjonson
2012-03-15 00:30:55

@Pierce, while I agree repeating statutes and driver/biker/pedestrian annoyances is tiresome... if you have any aversion to repeating conversations, internet message boards may not be the best place to spend one's time.


dmtroyer
2012-03-15 01:12:33

Don't get me wrong I think that sometimes these posts need a softer touch, maybe a nicer tone but they can be helpful.


marvelousm3
2012-03-15 01:14:53

@dmtroyer


C'est la vie, c'est la vie


I resisted posting a message earlier, but this time I was weaker


sgtjonson
2012-03-15 01:21:30

I don't get the concern about taking a picture of someone doing something in public and then commenting on it. I think it's entirely appropriate to comment on cyclists behaviour rather than, say, motorists.

I could have posted a pic of the young woman on the bus today who was seriously jamming out on whatever was going on between her ears, mouthing some unheard lyrics. Really? Do you really think that's cool? You're not at home in your shower, you're out in society with other people and you look like a freak. But I didn't, cause that would be unseemly.

Though QB should probably have made some audible attempt to inform the guy he was passing, earbuds or not, esp when both clipping along at apparent speed. Just saying. Helmet cam work both ways.


edmonds59
2012-03-15 04:00:14

@pierce: I'm not coming down on all headphone wearers in all circumstances. This is a specific instance that I'm talking about: while commuting in the city.


It's already a risky thing... so why do things that multiply the risk? A headphone in your ear on the traffic side of your head just seems to me to be a pretty stupid thing to do. I mean... are your phone calls or random music or This American Life podcasts really so critical to tune into that you're willing to up the ante on a possible mishap? Not only are you blocking out ambient sound, you're also taking cerebral focus and processing power away from the task at hand (particularly if you're mid-conversation on the phone). Half deaf to the car (or bicyclist) on your left, and half paying attention to what's actually occurring around you because you're jamming to Gwar, or telling your wife that you'll remember to pick up some half & half on the way home, or something else that's genuinely not an immediate concern. Either wait 30 minutes to resolve the thing after you've arrived at your destination or pull off the road to have a conversation if it's really that important.


I did communicate my concern to the dude... pointed to my ear as I passed him and asked "que pasa?", but I am fairly certain that he didn't hear me (not to mention how hard I dropped him and that I was out of doppler range by the time he was able to form a reply).


I dunno. Maybe it's because I have kids & am in my 40's that I've become much more risk averse while commuting. I like coming home in one piece at the end of the day, and if having 360º aural awareness and 90-ish% mental focus gives me a 5% or 20% or whatever % edge on the odds, I'll take it.


I use a headphone myself (non-traffic side) when on long rides out of the city. But even then, it depends on the road. On the Red Belt or Saxonburg Blvd, I want to hear the pickup trucks gunning up behind me at 50 - 70 mph. Days Run Rd, Cruikshank Rd, 3 Degree Rd.... a bit less to worry about there early on a Sunday.


It is definitely interesting though to see the board reactions to helmet cam videos. When I posted the vid of the jagoff driver on Friendship Ave a few months ago, I thought, gee, my fellow bicyclers will surely see what a jerk that guy was being.... comme ci comme ca.


I'm called out for the decisions I make in the moment just as I'm calling out what I see. But, armchair quarterbacking is easy. Show me your helmet cam vids, and I'll take part in a discussion to dissect them too. At least I'm being open about it, documenting things, and not just flapping my gums with nothing to show for it.


One thing that does strike and concern me is how often I see opinions (from presumable cycling advocates) on things we consider to be bad driver behavior (distracted driving, jabbing on the phone, etc) so easily being condoned when those actions are being performed by a cyclist. Car culture mentality is creeping into bike culture mentality, and I definitely do not see it as a good thing.


quizbot
2012-03-15 06:09:28

I have what melange has for my iPhone so I can listen to music. As loud as iPhones are with them turned upside down right next to your ear, I still can't hear any music coming from it when I ride on most of the jail trail. On quieter streets, there has never been a time when I couldn't hear traffic coming from behind, even the quiet, more modern cars. There is always the sound of the cars hitting potholes, the engine making noise, or the tires on road debris. If I was wearing earphones (not earbuds- those never stay in my ears), I wouldn't be able to hear much. Even if the music is low, sound is being blocked because there is something in the ear.


I agree with quizbot. When you're on the road, you have a certain amount of danger you can control and some that you can't. Why risk injury? The last thing I want is to cause myself to get hurt and be off of the bike, but if people want to do dangerous things that cause injury to themselves, they can go ahead, and I won't feel quite as badly for them. But when people wear headphones on the trails or on the road and it makes it dangerous for me to be in the same general area as the person, I am not pleased. I passed a few people on the trail yesterday and said "coming up on your left!" a few times. They never heard me and I had to basically go off of the path to avoid these people weaving everywhere. I just have less patience for morons the older I get.


stefb
2012-03-15 09:35:59

I have had more trouble with pedestrians with headphones not hearing me call out passing or just walking/jogging in a zig-zag pattern unable to hear me call out.

I do agree with quizbot that we are very forgiving of bad cycling and not bad driving. I've never been hit by a car but I've been hit by a bike (it was an unavoidable accident). If it was a car that hit me there would be a 10 page thread on it.


marvelousm3
2012-03-15 13:53:49

I think it comes down to expectations. I do not expect any post on any forum will influence a driver. I do however believe that if there is an issue with our own we may be able to do something about it. For every cyclist that uses lights, wears a helmet, signals, rides carefully, and is a good advocate we have so many more who ride on the sidewalks helmetless jumping out into traffic pissing drivers off.


As for pedestrians with headphones, most don't hear me (or do anything) if I say "on the left" or something like that, people with headphones are the worst. I have almost been knocked off of my bike because some moron was oblivious to his surroundings. I even ventured around him by 4-5 feet.


orionz06
2012-03-15 14:07:45

If it was a car that hit me there would be a 10 page thread on it.


and you might not be posting in it.


we as people are very poor at judging potential risk. we drive these hulking death machines everywhere and mow people down and think nothing of it, but some weird disease that kills seven people in south asia scares the hell out of us. we just suck at probability.


a friend of mine (who rides bikes) likes to go on diatribes about cyclist lawlessness and its relation to cyclists bitching about automobile lawlessness. but the threats these two things pose to the public well-being are so disparate that one of them really isn't worth mentioning (at least around here, right now).


hiddenvariable
2012-03-15 15:29:33

distracted driving=bad, right?


*If* headphones are considered a distraction to a cyclist and we share the road with drivers then shouldn't distracted cycling=bad too?


although i do understand the difference in the amount of harm that could be caused by a car rather than a bike, but, just for discussion and thinking about how we are (or are not) subject to the same ideas of road use...


2012-03-15 18:38:43

I still think that cyclists need to stop at lights and stop signs. I do it at 5am on saline st when no one is up or around. I started to yell at people or at least give them the wtf hand gesture. Traffic laws are in place to keep people safe.. Or at least that is what i think they are there for).


stefb
2012-03-15 19:56:11

nobody's brought up an alternative soundtrack method...


Ear thingies don't stay in my ear and the old school ones won't fit under my helmet, so when I'm feeling the need for a sound track, I make one up. Usually attempts at known melodies with substituted words for the ones I've forgotten. Sometimes low volume, but the volume gets higher when I go downhill. One of the only things better than coasting down the other side of a grueling hill is singing (or shouting "woooo") loud as hell while doing it. Yes, this likely affects my ability to hear while I'm doing it. I'm not sure how I feel about that (I know at the time it feels fantastic).


And in any discussion of distracted driving/cycling, don't forget it's the operator's mind that is in question. Awareness I believe is a separate issue: you don't need to be focusing intently on some music to miss the driver sneaking up on your right. I do think that by potentially partially obstructing a sense or means to observe your world, you're more likely to miss something, but even obstruction free senses must actually be focused on to do any good. Not saying other people's distractedness is an excuse for more. Just trying to keep some context in mind.


kelw, I think you have a good point there.


ETA: not that I'd wear headphones. But I do add a soundtrack. I do the same thing in the car. Sing, that is. Sometimes clashes with the radio.


ejwme
2012-03-15 19:59:03

iPhone with the volume all the way up upside down (speaker pointing up) in the unzipped mp3 pocket at the top of the backpack i commute with is plenty loud for me to hear my music (or npr) on quieter streets. when the traffic is too loud for me to hear the music that means its too busy for me to not be paying 100% attention to it.


cburch
2012-03-15 20:40:43

I still think a thread like this helps. It seems every time we post about cyclist doing dangerous things it gets a negative reaction. http://bike-pgh.org/bbpress/topic/cyclists-on-24th-and-sidney I have learned from these kind of threads to be a safer rider, so why do we get so offended. If not for the message board I still would be filtering, riding the sidewalk and using cable locks.


marvelousm3
2012-03-15 21:03:29

I do sometimes still filter - slowly and what I feel is safely.

I ride some sidewalks, where it is really rare to encounter a pedestrian but crossing where cars do 45 for a few hundred yards seems like a bad idea.

I still use a cable lock.


I learn things every day, then make decisions based on what I know.


helen-s
2012-03-15 21:19:10

"I still think that cyclists need to stop at lights and stop signs."


Agreed. However, I do sometimes roll through clearly marked 4-way stop signs assuming good visibility.


headloss
2012-03-15 21:21:42

Traffic laws are in place to keep people safe.. Or at least that is what i think they are there for).


that's what they're supposed to be there for. i wouldn't readily concede, though, that it's something they accomplish.


"it's the law" is not reason enough to behave a certain way. and often enough the circumstances to which the law is meant to apply aren't present. at 6 am on saline, for example. i obviously don't condone running red lights and terrorizing pedestrians all willy-nilly, but neither can i abide people incessantly complaining about "scofflaw cyclists", especially when it's not a real public health concern (e.g. in pittsburgh in 2012).


sorry, i guess my friend's anti-cyclist grouchery has been getting to me!


hiddenvariable
2012-03-15 22:20:00

""it's the law" is not reason enough to behave a certain way."


That statement erodes the social contract. If you are free to pick and choose, the why should anyone follow the rules. It is the very definition of hypocrisy to expect adherence to the law by others (specifically motorists) and then casually disregard it yourself.


That statement IS the problem.


atleastmykidsloveme
2012-03-15 22:57:42

if people were mature enough to consistently make good decisions based on the welfare of those around them we wouldn't need laws. i hope to meet people like that someday, but i doubt it.


cburch
2012-03-16 01:35:50

I believe Kant and Hume have words for you. Not that I would know them - I'm no philosophy expert ;)


alnilam
2012-03-16 02:51:43

i was actually more paraphrasing thoreau, but that works too.


cburch
2012-03-16 03:00:32

“What is important is to spread confusion, not eliminate it.”

? Salvador Dalí


“We started off trying to set up a small anarchist community, but people wouldn't obey the rules.”

? Alan Bennett


“Beginning with Santa Claus as a cognitive exercise, a child is encouraged to share the same idea of reality as his peers. Even if that reality is patently invented and ludicrous, belief is encouraged with gifts that support and promote the common cultural lies.

The greatest consensus in modern society is our traffic systems. The way a flood of strangers can interact, sharing a path, almost all of them traveling without incident. It only takes one dissenting driver to create anarchy.”

? Chuck Palahniuk


“It is only when we have renounced our preoccupation with "I," "me," "mine," that we can truly possess the world in which we live. Everything, provided that we regard nothing as property. And not only is everything ours; it is also everybody else's.”

? Aldous Huxley


headloss
2012-03-16 03:21:46

My favorite entropy related quote from my favorite old curmudgeon:


“There is no order in the world around us, we must adapt ourselves to the requirements of chaos instead. It is hard to adapt to chaos, but it can be done. I am living proof of that: It can be done.”

— Kurt Vonnegut


cburch
2012-03-16 03:29:25

:) That's a good one!


headloss
2012-03-16 03:58:46

there's something to be said for behaving predictably so that, in case there's something going on that is beyond one's observation or ability to control, the others in the area at least know what to expect.


I'm not saying that I blindly follow laws and expect other people around me to be therefor protect me somehow, but even when I can't see or hear anybody, I stop anyway (or at least slow to what safer cars consider a "stop"). I stop for the people I don't see. I stop for the problems I'm not aware of.


I also stop and signal turns so that it's a habit. Because when there IS a problem that I DO see, I don't want to think about the predictable and hopefully safer thing to do, I want to keep that extra split second to think about what's next. Or if it's just busy and I want all my energy focused on the traffic around me, not on what I need to be doing to behave like legal, predictable traffic.


ejwme
2012-03-16 11:11:13

"To live outside the law one must be honest."


R. Zimmerman


helen-s
2012-03-16 12:31:22

@ AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe "That statement erodes the social contract. If you are free to pick and choose, the why should anyone follow the rules."


I don't think anybody should follow the rules just because they are rules. I think it is more important to follow oneself.


As hard as this may to be believe, the majority of the population cares about the welfare of those around them. That feeling just gets highly distorted by a lot of things.


As far as stop signs go, wouldn't it be better for people to carefully check the intersections they're going through rather than mindlessly stopping and starting at every red octagon. Didn't that delivery guy get killed in Oakland at a stop sign?


As for the social contact, why am I obliged to abide by it? The government does all sorts of things I don't agree with (as well as the general population)


I have almost no representation on a national, state or local level and the choices represent selections by the established parties which I don't participate in. So if I have no part in the lawmaking process, why follow the laws?


I'll accept the punitive (and ineffective) punishments when I get caught breaking the rules, but I won't abide by them


sgtjonson
2012-03-16 13:08:14

Yet we expect others around us to follow the rules, and we get very annoyed when they don't, especially if they are in a car.


marvelousm3
2012-03-16 13:42:58

I don't think anybody should follow the rules just because they are rules. I think it is more important to follow oneself.


I would disagree...I think it is more important to follow the rules, until you have a concrete reason to do otherwise. ("Following oneself" as a goal, worthwhile as it may be, is a general statement of autonomy, not a concrete reason to do X instead of Y.)


Slavish devotion to laws, rules, regulations, etc., is foolish and unrealistic...but so is rejection-by-default of said laws, rules, and regulations.


As for the social contact, why am I obliged to abide by it? The government does all sorts of things I don't agree with (as well as the general population)


I have almost no representation on a national, state or local level and the choices represent selections by the established parties which I don't participate in. So if I have no part in the lawmaking process, why follow the laws?


Well, my acid test in such matters is, "can I in good conscience claim a freedom for myself that I would not want others to claim?" As a blunt example, I would not accept "I didn't have any part in setting speed limits" as a valid excuse for some Adam's apple doing 50 in a 25 and wiping out a pedestrian.


reddan
2012-03-16 13:55:28

That statement erodes the social contract. If you are free to pick and choose, the why should anyone follow the rules. It is the very definition of hypocrisy to expect adherence to the law by others (specifically motorists) and then casually disregard it yourself.


That statement IS the problem.


if you could find one person who always tried to follow whatever laws they could, i would have an easier time agreeing with you.


in fact, part of the social contract is that we don't follow all of the laws. i think highway speed limits are a good example. it is indeed a rare occurrence to find someone doing 65 the whole way along 79 from erie to here.


laws are not an enumeration of the social contract. "that is where you make your bloomer" (-p.g. wodehouse). we agree to behave certain ways, and we set up laws so that agreement can be enforced, but the laws are not necessarily the agreement itself.


also, for what it's worth, i'm more in agreement with reddan here than pierce.


hiddenvariable
2012-03-16 14:07:23

I mostly agree with Dan. I have certain anarchist tendencies, but even those are rooted in communitarianism, rather than pure autonomy.


Regarding the social contract, living in society kinda binds you to it. Sure, like Pierce, I don't find that my representatives actually represent my views, but, I certainly enjoy benefits of the gub'mint, too. Part of the social contract is taking the good with the bad (and working to fix the bad). You can't really opt out of the social contract unless you choose to completely move off the grid.


Also, "freedom" and "liberty" are two different things. The social contract, at least here in the U.S., is more about liberty--we give up certain things (running around nekkid in public, for instance) for other things (a collection of laws that protect our lives--when those laws are exercised correctly).


Society is imperfect, and I believe we won't ever get it right. But, like Hobbes, I think it's probably better than the alternative.


bjanaszek
2012-03-16 14:08:51

MrM, and I apologize if I'm putting words in your mouth Pierce, but I think part of the arguement is that we can't expect others around us to follow rules, indeed some may hope that others DONT follow rules mindlessly.


I think a big problem is that we can't easily tell the difference between mindless stopping at stopsign or following rules, and alert careful driving that happens to coincide with the rules, until something bad happens. Face to face interactions are easier to gage if there's nobody home, but from across the street and behind a reflecting windshield, it's impossible.


Personally, I hope above all else that everybody is safe. I believe that the best way to achieve that is for everybody to behave predictably (assuming personal safety and public welfare are pervasive goals). I believe the best way to achieve THAT is for everybody to follow the public laws of the land. I believe the best way to achieve THAT is social pressure, education, and law enforcement.


Balancing those beliefs with forgiveness of any single or habitual yet minor infraction of strangers, that's the real trick. I don't always do it, I think a lot of people struggle with it, but I think most people also try to find that balance.


ejwme
2012-03-16 14:13:12

@ ejwme I think you explained it best. And don't get me wrong I'm not trying to be jerk, I just want to encourage safety. As long as everyone makes it home at night safely I'm happy.


marvelousm3
2012-03-16 14:42:49

Americans tend to like passing laws, and also like picking and choosing which ones they follow. There's an interesting history to this. The Puritans, as well as other religious groups, came to this country to establish what they thought would be a perfect society, which included lots of rules regulating personal behavior -- no work on Sundays, etc. Indeed, they left Holland because they considered it too liberal.

On the other hand, pioneers, including many who settled Pittsburgh, really didn't like people "back East" telling them how to live their lives. There was a big disconnect in this state between the government, which was run by Quakers in Philadelphia, and the settlers here in Pittsburgh. And in any case, given the difficulties of communication and travel, it was hard for Philadelphian Quakers to enforce their laws here. There was a saying, "a fool can put on his coat better than a wise man can do it for him."

So we ended up with two contradictory strains of thought: it's a good thing to have laws against things we don't like ("there oughta be a law against it") and we pick and choose which laws to obey ("get the government out of our lives").

That's just the way it is, not only for cyclists. It's different in countries that don't have this history -- for example, if you ride the wrong way up a one-way street in Germany, you'll be surprised to find yourself getting a ticket. But here, everyone does things like:

-- Ease through stop signs

-- Exceed posted speed limits when running downhill

-- Filter forward through stopped traffic

-- Cross lanes to get to a bike lane

-- Proceed after stopping at a red light at a T-intersection


And some of these things make perfect sense from a safety point of view. For example, I'm much safer riding straight to a bike lane (after making sure there's no traffic near me) than riding down the middle of the driving lane to get to the point where I can make a legal left turn to it.


jonawebb
2012-03-16 15:20:17

indeed, selectively following laws is institutional. throughout human history, judges (and their equivalents) have been granted leeway in prosecuting their cases, for things like exceptional circumstances and the like.


really, safety is my primary concern. i will weigh things like practicality and convenience against safety, and make decisions accordingly. the law only comes in peripherally, by setting up a framework by which we are meant to interact on the road. if everyone followed all the laws, road interactions would be fairly predictable, and there is definitely safety value in that. however, that doesn't mean i'm going to feel bad about blowing a stop sign with no nearby traffic and excellent sight lines. unless there's a nearby cop, of course!


hiddenvariable
2012-03-16 17:26:55

the headphone wearer/rider in the photo, was probably ready to jump up and start riding on the sidewalk (or just came down off the sidewalk)....LMAO!!


willie-p
2012-03-16 18:54:43

I normally wear a headphone in my non traffic side. No music playing but it helps (to me ) increase the sounds on the left especially riding through busy pedestrian neighborhoods where there is alot of random non traffic input.


2012-03-25 14:48:07