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Forbes Avenue bike lane design frustrations

There are certainly worse stretches of road to ride on, but I have ridden the Forbes Ave stretch between Dallas and Braddock both ways enough to see the need for improvement.


Towards Braddock a cyclist can travel at 20-25mph easily, and with a bike lane where you are constantly dodging drainage grates and tree limbs it becomes unsafe fairly quickly. If you take the lane drivers don't like it and use the fact that you're not in the bike lane to complain about it. If you are in the bike lane no one gives you enough room to safely dodge the hazards mentioned above.


Leaving Braddock the lane starts out way too narrow and cars don't give you any room and it can be scary, especially when you are following an inexperienced cyclist such as I was this morning when I took my wife to work. It widens nicely in the middle but then suddenly ends. If you aren't prepared for the lane to end you're screwed if someone is approaching from behind.


I certainly think this is an improvement over what it was before the lanes were installed, but it's still rough at times.


Anyone else have any thoughts on the matter?


rsprake
2010-06-11 19:58:14

i can say that a bit more is designed, to actually have it all connect, but we're still waiting on the city to install it.


we've been waiting awhile.


*sigh*


erok
2010-06-11 20:43:08

I am guessing that it is sharrows which will be nice. How about the city post a 25mph speed limit!


rsprake
2010-06-11 20:55:12

How about the city enforce a 25mph speed limit…


wojty
2010-06-11 21:12:35

I don't understand the air of secrecy here. Why must anyone guess?


lyle
2010-06-11 21:21:05

there's no air of secrecy. there are sharrows designed.


erok
2010-06-11 21:48:15

The street certainly needs to be cleaned more regularly, plenty of debris has accumulated lately. That's something pretty easily solved.


Overall, I think it's a dramatic improvement over what was there before.


Yet. The way the lane ends inbound (to Squirrel Hill) is disorienting. The way the lane starts outbound (toward Braddock) -- right where traffic merges -- is potentially dangerous. And the way the lane ends outbound, on the bridge, is an unmitigated disaster. Narrow, narrow, narrow, gone!


nfranzen
2010-06-11 22:03:44

Agreed, and agreed. Very frustrating. No way do I trust cars at the S. Braddock/Forbes intersection approach, I usually hop onto the sidewalk for that last bit. And the debris - smack dab in the middle of the lanes - forms a dangerous obstacle course.


eastender
2010-06-11 23:06:33

I also don't like the approach to the bike lane uphill from the Margaret Morrison intersection. The issues are that Forbes goes from two lanes to one lane, and the right lane there is right turn only onto Margaret Morrison. I usually still ride in the right lane through the intersection, but the issue is that you have to merge left before the bike lane because there are parking spaces for anywhere between 6 and 8 cars before the bike lanes.


I'm not sure what needs to be designed here, I would prefer if the bike lane started at the Margaret Morrison intersection, but I understand the logistical problems of removing street parking. Failing that, I would like to see better marked uphill sharrows before the bike lanes so that drivers know where to expect bikes there.


Riding on Forbes between about Murdoch and Murray can also be quite harrowing at times, and there are already sharrows there. I kind of take issue with sharrows on two-lane roads because they seem to me like a cheap way of labeling a given road with "bike infrastructure" rather than actually improving the road for bikes. The exception to this would be like the sharrows on Liberty Ave. through Bloomfield where the generous road width allows for cars and bikes to ride side-by-side safely. Unfortunately, I don't think this is comparable on Forbes Ave. through Squirrel Hill.


impala26
2010-06-11 23:18:34

Impala the issue is that you have to merge left before the bike lane because there are parking spaces for anywhere between 6 and 8 cars before the bike lanes.


This is an issue at all the areas along Forbes.


We need bike lanes at the intersections. Having them other places? OK, but not very useful.


Intersections are where the cars will kill us.


On Forbes we have a bunch of bike lanes that aren't close to the intersection. They either start up way fter the intersection or end before you get to the critcal, dangerous point.


Both directions at Dallas is like that.


Forbes to Braddock -when you aren't near the intersection?


You don't need a bike lane. Going down hill, you can take a lane and go near the speed limit. Going uphill, there is an little-used sidewalk.


AT Dallas? You NEED a bike lane. Nothing. At the intersection with Braddock? You need a bike lane. Nothing.


This is simlar to Beacon near Wightman. Where there is no need? There is a lane.


At the dangerous intersection? Nothing.


Not a good pattern. Like "pretend bike lanes" or something.


mick
2010-06-12 00:23:54

again, there is stuff that isn't there yet. it's really frustrating for us.


also, i think the lane that goes thru the (yes)intersection of schenley is really useful:




erok
2010-06-12 03:45:09

I really like the dotted lines. At that point I'm not moving real fast anymore, and it seems like cars know what I'm doing when I'm between them and they wait for me.


dwillen
2010-06-12 04:29:39

@ erok- Yeah, that schenley intersection is great. Sorry for comming off so negative.


mick
2010-06-12 07:12:50

That section of Forbes is awesome. The uphill buffered bike lane rules.


rsprake
2010-06-13 18:06:02

When I first moved to town I came upon the section of Forbes past Dallas going towards Braddock on one of my explore town bike rides. It was dark, there was no bike lane, traffic was moving fast and I was like "F#%K no to whatever street you are"


It is amazing how much safer that white line makes me feel.


Now that part going downhill to Braddock is one of my favorite hills in the city. I kind of like it after a big rain storm and I have to weave around all of the fallen limbs. But I'm weird like that.


roadkillen
2010-06-14 15:51:31

See, I feel less safe because I know that no one is going to bother giving me any space since I have my own lane.


rsprake
2010-06-14 16:57:39

has the city done anything to improve the lighting along that section of the road? it gets DAAAAARK through there at night.


cburch
2010-06-14 17:08:18

I live pretty close to this stretch of road and I'm on it pretty often, both on bike and in car. I agree that the bike lane abruptly ending near the major intersections is confusing/dangerous at best. Especially at Braddock when the green right arrow is on...people fly!


I will say that I do feel much safer since the white line is there. However, I agree that since that white line is there drivers are not going to be forgiving if you breach the white line boundary.


I think having the speed limit enforced during rush hour would help a lot -give drivers the perception that 55mph will not be tolerated on this road-. Park a cop in the community garden pull-off during rush hour.


Also, for some infrastructure, a yield to pedestrians crosswalk at either end of the bridge over Frick Park. Like the one between Murray and Shady, zebra stripe and some yellow signs. It might slow drivers down a bit for the Braddock intersection.


roadkillen
2010-06-14 17:26:17

I agree with rsprake about the stripe.

And with RoadKillen about speed enforcement. There is no reason to drive 55 on that road, especially during rush hour, because traffic just bottlenecks at the intersection anyway. It's reckless AND pointless.


lyle
2010-06-14 18:05:47

There are always police busting people cheating the light at forbes and braddock. I am afraid that without real traffic calming nothing will ever slow people down.


rsprake
2010-06-14 18:15:36

Maybe we can reposition some of those fallen tree limbs to calm the traffic. How about some wooden sharrows to go along with the rustic aesthetic of Frick Park?


The Wooden Sharrows...sounds like a good band name.


roadkillen
2010-06-14 18:27:00

a median strip with a garden in it would be perfect, and tie into the fact that its a road through a park quite nicely. add a nice little brick sidewalk and some bumpouts for crossing and suddenly that feels like a park and not a highway again.


cburch
2010-06-14 19:58:20

Not like we have any money for such things in the first place. I can still dream.


rsprake
2010-06-14 20:56:02

I love the Forbes bike lane through Frick Park, but there are definitely issues.


1) What exactly are we supposed to do when the lane narrows and disappears near the end of the bridge? There are always big potholes there and there's no way to get onto the sidewalk near there without stopping (or developing skills I don't have).


2) I don't think this road is _ever_ cleaned - not even twice a month like most Pittsburgh roads. It needs to be swept regularly and after storms when trees and debris tend to come down from the hillside.


It has slowed traffic; I really didn't consider riding there before the lanes existed. But as a driver who uses that road all the time, I hope we don't do anything to slow traffic any more. It seems safe to me at this point.


Also, if you travel there at evening rush hour the traffic backs up at least halfway through the park. No speeding cars to worry about then.


Now, on the other section of Forbes, near Margaret Morrison - I hate those big pavement things that loop out into the road. Why design a bike lane that causes us to swerve in and out of the main travel lane? They should have made the pavement bumps narrower so I could fit in the lane with a bus. Very unnerving. No more like that, please.


erink
2010-06-14 20:58:39

my advice for the downhill direction at the bridge -- you have to take a lane. By the time you get to the end of the bridge you are squeezed, it's too late. Poor little squishy sideswiped cyclist. No.


Start looking backwards at the start of the bridge, maintain good speed, and take the middle of the right lane. I myself am almost always going straight, so at the end of the bridge I want to be in the middle of the center lane. I move left mid-bridge.


It may seem a little scary but I never have any problems with it, I keep track of where the cars are, make it clear with hand motions what I'm doing, and things are fine.


I think somebody mentioned getting on to the sidewalk at the start of the bridge? That should work too. I would just STRONGLY advise against riding in the bike lane over the bridge. It just leaves you with nowhere to go at the end. Take the sidewalk or take the lane.


nfranzen
2010-06-14 21:23:24

yeah, not a fan of those bump outs too much either, but the idea of the sharrows is that you take the lane and follow those. they were apparently put in because of how much neighbors complained about how fast cars were traveling, and these were meant to slow people down. you can do the speed limit just by coasting there.


as for the debris. please please call 311 about it.


erok
2010-06-15 15:20:12

It would be great if there was some way to get on to the sidewalk where the bridge over Frick Park starts in case you wanted to actually get into the park and avoid the Forbes / Braddock intersection. During rush hour this would be amazing as it would allow one to avoid all the backup and cars gunning it to make the light.


rsprake
2010-06-15 15:30:10

The Frick Park stretch of Forbes also demonstrates how awful a situation would be if the bike lanes were physically separated. If this were the case, the lanes would be even MORE debris-filled as I doubt the public works would ever get around to clearing them without a standard street sweeper.


impala26
2010-06-15 16:18:37

Physical separators ensure bike lanes will accumulate tons of crap.


Davis, CA has bike lanes on just about every road in the whole city and they come in all shapes, flavors and sizes. One of the worst ones I've biked is on a little stretch called Olive Drive (a road lined with Olive trees - riding on olives is no fun). Right outside the city, the road is a 55+mph county road that parallels a congested freeway. Inside the city, it turns into a small residential street. If anything needs traffic calming, it would be that situation. They have these goofy concrete bumpouts to calm traffic, but the bike lane bit rarely gets cleaned. They just pile up with leaves, olives, trash, etc. Taking the lane is kind of hazardous too, because its a super narrow traffic calming part of the road. Since it is one of the few in the city like that, I consider it a failed experiment.Google Street View.


dwillen
2010-06-15 16:39:01

Physical separators ensure bike lanes will accumulate tons of crap.


Exhibit A: the "chute" at the end of the Jail Trail that had tons of dust and sand in it until the Jersey barriers were moved to repave the street.


ieverhart
2010-06-15 18:19:57

Fyi, the Forbes lanes in both directions were (mostly) debris-free tonight!


eastender
2010-06-19 01:08:34

I bike Forbes between Braddock & Dallas several times a week.


The bike lane is a huge improvement over what was there before but it could certainly be better. I agree that we need more frequent street sweeping. I've seen car batteries and other car parts in that bike lane. In early spring there was still lots of gravel there left over from the winter.


It would be REALLY nice to get a curb ramp for the eastbound lane of Forbes at the east end of the bridge over Frick Park. It would give bicyclists a safer and quicker way to get onto the sidewalk and away from the cars, which are squeezing them into the curb at that point, and for bicyclists who are not riding along Forbes but want to cross it (cycling south from the Park Place neighborhood on Undercliff Rd, crossing Forbes, then cycling behind the Forbes-Braddock playground and baseball fields), they could cross Forbes much more safely there if they could avoid dismounting in the street.


To get from Forbes & Dallas to Forbes & Schenley Dr, don't take Forbes and don't take Northumberland (their traffic lights will slow you down).


Take Aylesboro. Aylesboro is a dream for bicyclists. From Forbes, R on Dallas (or cut through the cemetery), L on Aylesboro, cross Beechwood (carefully!), jog L when you get to Shady to stay on Aylesboro, cross Murray, cross Wightman. Not a single traffic light, and few cars!


paulheckbert
2010-06-19 09:07:28

That's the route I take as well Paul. Dallas is an easier climb than Forbes and if you want to escape traffic you can take the cemetery driveway so long as you are respectful.


rsprake
2010-06-19 12:39:23

I wonder if this section of Forbes through the park could be reduced from 4 to 2 lanes just like east liberty boulevard?


Could Mr. Patchan check with the city traffic engineer lady and find out? Considering the 60 years of population loss, overcapacity is quite common in the urban primaries.


sloaps
2010-06-19 23:31:49

I think 3 lanes would be sufficient but the engineers would want two lanes each way right at the intersection with Dallas -- either a dedicated left-turn lane, with a separate through/right lane, a left/through lane with a right/through lane, as it is now.


And then you've got that right-turn lane from Braddock to Forbes inbound.


You could do something, but it would get complicated, and Pittsburgh drivers aren't that great with complicated intersections.


lyle
2010-06-21 15:30:08

You would need dedicated turning lanes for sure.


rsprake
2010-06-21 17:13:15

I bicycle through there every day, twice, and get to observe the traffic. I wish I could say that the street is over-capacity, but ... it isn't. There's a lot of cars go through there morning and evening, and it frequently backs up, stopped cars, even now. Maybe traffic engineers are cleverer than I am, but I don't think lane removals work here.


nfranzen
2010-06-21 18:57:20

I was glad to see bike lane continuation through intersections was addressed here. To me the most important function of a bike lane is to remind drivers at intersections to check for bikes before turning (preventing the ol' right hook). They're a lot less effective at this when they disappear for the intersection. The Schenley/Forbes one is a great example of how it should be, but most of the other bike lanes I can think of in the city just disappear at crossings.


As for the Forbes/Braddock ones...yeah, it's always bothered me that they're essentially a glorified shoulder.


alnilam
2010-06-21 19:05:10

Nate, the annoying thing is that the backups happen right where the road narrows and there is no room for a bike lane anymore.


rsprake
2010-06-21 19:10:55

Okay, so three lanes. Stacking lanes for turning at the intersections with Braddock and Dallas Avenues? the stacking lanes can be "shared lanes" while the segment between the two intersections will have one westbound and one eastbound traffic lane along the curbs and full size bike thoroughfare in the middle with street tree dividers?


sloaps
2010-06-21 19:11:55

Something like that could work. You don't need two lanes the whole way most likely.


rsprake
2010-06-21 19:13:31

To me the most important function of a bike lane is to remind drivers at intersections to check for bikes before turning (preventing the ol' right hook).


Oh dear.


Straight through traffic does not belong on the right of turning traffic. Ever. Whether it's a bike, or a bus, or an 18-wheeler.


Bike lanes at intersections encourage everyone but the most confident, expert cyclists, to place themselves precisely where they should not be.


The best way to prevent a right hook is to ride well into the through lane at intersections.


lyle
2010-06-21 20:58:45

Here's a new obstacle on Forbes Ave. that I encountered last night - people! Heading toward S. Braddock, two women were walking IN the bike lane (NOT on the other side, where there is a SIDEWALK), which made me had to swerve into the car lane to avoid hitting them, while a car was close behind. I screamed something, well, not nice ...some people are idiots, period.


eastender
2010-07-01 23:09:12

Last night I saw a school bus ride the entire ELBL


Didn't even try to change lanes until Negley when it made a left


sgtjonson
2010-07-01 23:15:10

EastEnder, my preferred strategy here is to ride slowly behind them until they move. Start talking to them from behind if they don't notice you at first.


I also prefer this strategy when encountering runners that use the road instead of the sidewalk. What tears me up is when they try to run out into the street even farther to avoid me rather than realizing that I am more "traffic" than they are and as such should be the one to go out into the street. There's an awkward dance, it doesn't end well.


asobi
2010-07-02 12:52:06

FWIW...


Section 3544. Pedestrians walking along or on highway.

(a) Mandatory use of available sidewalk.—Where a sidewalk is provided and its use is practicable, it is unlawful for any pedestrian to walk along and upon an adjacent roadway.


(b) Absence of sidewalk.—Where a sidewalk is not available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk only on a shoulder as far as practicable from the edge of the roadway.


(c) Absence of sidewalk and shoulder.—Where neither a sidewalk nor a shoulder is available, any pedestrian walking along and upon a highway shall walk as near as practicable to an outside edge of the roadway and, if on a two-way roadway, shall walk only on the left side of the roadway.


(d) Right-of-way to vehicles.—Except as otherwise provided in this subchapter, any pedestrian upon a roadway shall yield the right-of-way to all vehicles upon the roadway.


salty
2010-07-02 14:36:41

Interesting that you talk about pedestrians using the bike lane as a walking path. I have seen on at least one occasion a pedestrian using the bike lane on the Birmingham Bridge. Granted, this actually falls in a grey area acording to the laws Salty posted because they were using it as a means to get from Fifth Ave. to, presumably, the sidewalk further down the bridge that rises only from the onramp from Forbes.


Just an interesting case. I actually don't mind it really on the Birmingham becuase the bike lane has a few feet of buffered space between the travel lane and even more space between it and the edge of the bridge. Like I said in my earlier thread about street observations. I still think at this current juncture that the north end of the Birmingham is especially poor for pedestrians and only marginally better for cyclists. In my humble opinion of course.


impala26
2010-07-02 15:56:51

I always see people running and walking in the road next to a usable sidewalk, and nobody is ever cited, so this is just another empty law.


lyle
2010-07-02 18:13:59

I almost always run in the streets, even if there is a sidewalk. Lack of pedestrians and more even footing make it usually the safer place, especially in winter and/or when it is dark, which usually is both. I am mindful of traffic (2 or 4 wheels or more).


helen-s
2010-07-02 18:33:29

I used to run in the city all the time, there were places (especially in point breeze I noticed) where the street was a lot safer. Eventually I found non-ankle turning routes, but some places to get from one end of the block to the other, it's a choice between two evils.


ejwme
2010-07-02 18:47:03

I ride this stretch of Forbes all the time and just last week (Friday)called 311 due to the 6" of debris piled onto every drain grate. DPW out cleaning the drains on Tuesday.


The abrupt end of the bike lane at the end of the bridge going outbound is a huge problem because, even though I try to move to the middle lane (I want to go straight to turn into Flotilla Way), the cars are often going so fast that I don't feel comfortable cutting over (I'm not rill fast n'at), not to mention trying to avoid the crap on the drain grates while, you know, looking backwards and all. Lots of fun that.


I was, however, impressed to see DPW out clearing things up so quickly after I called, so hope springs eternal.


One item I have not yet seen mentioned, and would love if others similarly so bothered would report to 311, is the storm drain just after the entrance to Homewood Cemetery and just before the bus stop at S. Dallas. As you know, the bike lane ends at the cemetery--immediately after this, there are these weird metal cylinders raggedly sticking up out of the pavement on the left toward the middle of the lane, but there is still enough room between them and the curb for a bike, HOWEVER, immediately after that is the storm drain from hell. It's sunk down about 6-8" from street level, there is a good 6" gap between the edge of the asphalt and the metal grate, and it's just before an intersection and as the grade starts to get steeper, so it's a clusterf#ck of epic proportions, especially if you're working on your pedal legs. Yes, I often go up on the sidewalk or out into the middle of the lane if there isn't too much traffic, but often there is traffic, or people standing at the bus stop, so it's a little hairy.


I reported this drain when I called about the build up of debris, so maybe if enough people complain something will happen. :-/


To answer someone else's question--no, the lighting situation has not improved. I find it worse going outbound, around the section where the community garden is. I think a street light is missing and the trees block light from others.


All that said--the bike lane is still a HUGE improvement. If it weren't there, I wouldn't ride Forbes at all (at least not on that section or on the street).


One other note--the posted speed limit between the bridge and S. Dallas is 35, not 25mph, but people often go 50+, just like they do down S. Braddock between Forbes and Penn. Gotta love inconsiderate, self-centered people!


kxm
2010-09-15 17:10:08

Yes, going outbound on Forbes, if you're not turning right onto Braddock, you have to start merging out of the bike lane about 50 yds before you reach the bridge. It's a shame there's no "bike lane ends, merge left" painted in the lane.


Same going inbound on Forbes, there's just not enough warning that you need to merge.


The underlying problem at both points is that the paved road surface narrows abruptly without warning. Before the road was striped for a bike lane, all the lanes narrowed slightly, and the cars would slow down slightly at that point. But now the "car lanes" stay the same width the whole way.


lyle
2010-09-15 17:31:42

I rode Forbes Ave today. Inbound I was buzzed by a PAT bus driver who couldn't be bothered to move over a foot and the outbound lane is still full of acorns and sticks, not to mention all of the storm drains and other obstacles.


I wish that the bike markings on the bridge would be replaced by sharrows in the center of the lane so that drivers would know to expect me in their way and that the city would install signage letting people know that the lanes end and to merge.


rsprake
2010-09-15 17:46:12

I agree rsprake. that would do wonders to calm my nerves as I look over and hope that the next set of cars flying towards the intersection will see me.


tabby
2010-09-15 18:41:54

Outbound, I just ride in the through lane, since I can't count on being able to merge over when I need to avoid the debris or the bridge.


Inbound, I try to remember to plan ahead and merge in advance, but I sometimes forget.


I've heard it said that close-passing is the unstated goal of the bike lane. The stripe is supposed to make motorists comfortable that you'll stay on your side of the line, and make you comfortable that the motorists will stay on their side of the line, and let the both of you share the same 13' of pavement more closely than you would do without the stripe.


lyle
2010-09-15 18:43:50

oh, well I guess that's good that it's someone's unstated goal because that's certainly what it does. I've got little love for bike lanes in general.


tabby
2010-09-15 18:49:09

I think they are great when traffic moves at a safe speed, but being passed at a close distance by an SUV or bus doing 45+ is not cool.


rsprake
2010-09-15 19:27:43

as far as where it ends, particularly inbound, the city never finished installing markings, and we're expecting them to in the upcoming week or so. mostly, it's sharrows connecting the two sections of bike lanes.


erok
2010-09-15 19:32:46

So I was out riding Forbes yesterday, and, sure enough, the drains were looking pretty clear vis-a-vis their previous appearance before I called...EXCEPT the ones ON THE BRIDGE where the lane is narrowest. :-P


The debris is starting to build up in general, so I'm going to try 311 again...


kxm
2010-09-19 20:37:50

The lanes were cleared up today 9/19....except for the dead deer in the eastbound lane (deer was cleared away before my return home).


Cars need to slow the f DOWN on this road. >:|


eastender
2010-09-19 21:19:14

Yeah, on S. Braddock too. People go over 50mph down S. Braddock between Forbes and Penn (I'm not exaggerating).


And the motorcyclists just need to move to another area code--they've been VROOOOMMINGGGG down the street with notable increased frequency at particularly annoying speeds and volumes this summer. Last night I could hear the growl/whine of some jagoff's bike even after it was probably nearly a mile away. ARgh! (I used to ride a motorcycle, and I hated loud bikes then too.)


Thanks for the note about the bike lanes!


kxm
2010-09-20 15:36:23

take east end blvd instead of braddock. much more pleasant.


cburch
2010-09-20 19:15:26

take east end blvd instead of braddock. much more pleasant.


:-D Yes, except for the part where I *live* on S. Braddock. I should have been more clear that that was a slightly tangential mini-rant. :)


The speeding bothers me if I'm standing in my kitchen, let alone waiting to cross the street for 4 minutes before someone will slow and let me cross or there is a break in traffic or riding my bike. I only ride a few blocks on S. Braddock generally, and then only at times when the traffic isn't so bad.


kxm
2010-09-22 23:35:54

Geez, they must've put the interns to work on the restriping.....Forbes Ave inbound @ Frick Park, late this morning.




pseudacris
2010-09-24 19:33:53