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79

Help pick the bike route signage the City uses!!

caitlin
2010-10-06 18:43:25

my pick = Option A.


Option B - 3-Rivers is a cute idea but obfuscates the bike icon.


Option C - another logo on top could really confuse things.


pseudacris
2010-10-06 18:48:57

Option A.

Most concise. The bike icon tells me I'm on a bike route and the direction with location name is easy to understand.


I thought the 3rivers symbol in option B would be somewhat confusing to people from out of town.


In Option C I think there is a disconnect with the information given. I know I'm on a bike route because there is a bike symbol, but the number doesn't mean anything to me. At first I thought it was a mile marker. I don't think I could associate a whole bunch of locations in the city with corresponding numbers.


I cant wait to see these In the city.


roadkillen
2010-10-06 18:54:11

I picked A as well.


rsprake
2010-10-06 18:54:19

A.


It was clean and direct.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-06 19:04:12



erok
2010-10-06 19:05:09

A all the way


erok
2010-10-06 19:07:51

I picked B. I dig the 3-rivers logo. It ties in the bike racks too. Anyone who can't figure out this is a bike probably doesn't own a bike. I'd be equally happy with A though.


C seems like the least helpful of the group unless you are familiar with what numbered route goes where, and then, you probably don't need the signs.


dwillen
2010-10-06 19:08:22

i know! c is no good, I want as much real estate on a sign as cars on roadways get! i was torn between a and b, but i ultimately picked b for fun. its going to be awesome when these are up!!!


caitlin
2010-10-06 19:15:06



pseudacris
2010-10-06 19:26:15

winner!


cburch
2010-10-06 19:28:11

HA!!!


erok
2010-10-06 19:33:58

Option A FTW.

I love the 3Rivers motif on the bike racks, but for some reason on the sign it looks ugly.


C is a bad idea.


rosielo
2010-10-06 20:01:51

A is so much clearly better, I'm surprised they needed a survey. B looks like a new rack design.


lyle
2010-10-06 20:21:41

C is consistent with PennDOT bike route signs. If they started having a hundred thousand of these around the state, then maybe it would be useful, but in general, no.


mick
2010-10-06 20:25:27

All three of me voted for Option 2. Does that survey record ip addys?


Wait, I want Option BB!


sloaps
2010-10-06 21:32:07

C: 44 bicycles ahead? 44 bicycles overhead? Next bicycle 44 miles? Number of wheels on a bicycle plus the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, the Universe and Everything?


stuinmccandless
2010-10-06 21:45:56

A.


I imagine anything 'custom' would cost more money.


noah-mustion
2010-10-06 21:51:11

It would be kinda cool to get the second one made into a bike rack now that someone mentioned it!


wojty
2010-10-06 22:08:38

i think c is good for long distance use, like for the PA bike route system, but for around town, meh.


i think SF uses something similar to C. A is also the standard in the MUTCD


erok
2010-10-07 00:15:48

A. B is cool if you know what it means, but probably will be a distraction. Standards are good.


quizbot
2010-10-07 01:16:44

I went with A. It's the cleanest/easiest to read. I don't know how much more expensive the custom wheel design is (they're going to have to custom print most destination names anyway) but if they ever wind up replacing them, it would be easy to overlook the Three Rivers design and re-order the standard design. A mix and match would be neat in its own way, but for consistency's sake, I'd go with A.


It would take a lot of signs around, at most every intersection, before the route numbers really became useful to the average occasional cyclist.


ieverhart
2010-10-07 01:56:34

+1 for the mUtcd


lyle
2010-10-07 12:15:52

A


jeg
2010-10-07 14:25:46

A all the way.


chinston
2010-10-07 15:49:05

I would like to formally vote against the pavement markings that were proposed at the meeting.


dmtroyer
2010-10-07 18:12:07

pavement markings?


lyle
2010-10-07 18:18:47

I can't see the page linked, IE or mozilla, and google says it's there but won't show me cached. Employer hasn't blocked it (didn't show the "No Page For You" internets nazi page, just the "page doesn't exist" thing)... Am I doing something wrong?


ejwme
2010-10-07 18:20:42

I don't know what pavement markings were discussed, but in Davis, they have a "bike loop" around the whole city, marked with green, painted pavement markings (very few signs--only a couple of "maps" along the route, of the route). If you have a few minutes, watch the video going around clockwise or counter-clockwise.


It is mostly a recreation thing, rather than a commuter route, but it is perfect for people visiting from out of town who want to ride bikes. The thing started 20 feet from my front door (mile 10 in the clockwise video!). All you had to do is point to the green marks and tell them to follow. It turns out that my normal commute to the campus building I worked in exactly followed the marked route for that portion of travel.


dwillen
2010-10-07 19:05:48

I chose A but I ask you: Is there any chance these could be somewhat interactive? For example, instead of a sign that you can decipher in a fraction of a second (like if you were traveling in a motor vehicle at high speeds), why not provide more detailed information (kiosk style) at each sign. I know that means more money, but for the out of towner that doesn't want to go to any place that has "Hill" in the name, there aren't enough options.


morningsider
2010-10-07 19:15:59

An out-of-towner on a bike doesn't need a sign to see there are hills in every direction. Plus, think about the purpose road signs serve: you're going to Squirrell Hill? 3 miles that way. What more do you need - and if you require more, that's why they made the Google machine.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-07 19:19:25

almklm - i like the loop idea. We already have belts (red through purple!) Why not expand the belts to include bikes... or if cars have belts, why can't bikes have chains? We could have red chain through purple chain, they could be scaled for bike riders and put on streets that are more bike friendly.


ejwme
2010-10-07 19:27:20

It might be nice to have certain places, like maybe Point Park, where they post the BikePgh map - or maybe even a enlarged version that would be easier to see the details.


mick
2010-10-07 19:31:12

(ejwme - I was primarily responding to the "kiosk" idea) - but I like the loop idea too - in theory. Unfortunately I think our geography would defeat any practical application. Worth a shot though - or possibly as a means of establishing more "bike throughways" kind of like the ELB.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-07 19:32:54

We already have belts (red through purple!)


If I recall correctly there are several of the colored belts that don't make a full loop.


mick
2010-10-07 19:33:54

I chose A but I ask you: Is there any chance these could be somewhat interactive?


just had a conversation with the consultant about this. he thinks that's one of the benefits of a route signage plan is that you can give choices at times. for instance, we were talking about getting from shadyside to squirrel hill, and say you're on aiken or negley, you can choose whether you want to climb negley or go a little out of your way to get up wilkins.


sorry, i don't think pointing 3 miles that way will necessarily get someone to squirrel hill. riding in a town with wayfinding is a very different experience than riding in a town without, and taking one wrong turn in this town means that you may end up at the bottom of a hill or a completely different neighborhood altogether


erok
2010-10-07 19:33:57

Do the belts that are currently in-place work? I, admittedly, have only lived here for three years but I hear more jokes about them than stories of people using them.


And if we can all have Google with us on our bikes, scrap the sign idea and save the money.


morningsider
2010-10-07 19:36:33

First, these signs need to be practical. Explain to me how putting some sort of decision tree on a road sign is going to be usable or understood.


Our geography (which forces our roads into knots) is obviously going to make any signage plan a challenge. Layering on a bunch of options is only going to make it worse.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-07 19:38:57

Do the belts that are currently in-place work?

Sure they work. Oddly routed in some places, yes. Not full loops in others, yes. But when I moved here 20 years ago we wore out three maps in the car before we finally could get places without getting too lost. The belts were helpful if you were lost because omce you found one, you could follow it and get somewhere you recognized. Would it be the shortest way to get there--usually not, but it works. Many native Pittsburghers are seriously geographically challenged, the won't cross rivers for example. People from the North Hills won't ever go to the South Hills and visa versa. The belts can be quite helpful.


The Yellow, Orange and Red Belts can also be worked into quite a number of longer road rides in the area.


jeffinpgh
2010-10-07 19:44:59

On another topic, I agree keep the signs simple. I voted for the A design, though it was ideal. The signs in Portland like that made perfect sense to me.


But heck, it's the 21st century so here's a high-techy idea 'nat, put a smart code on each sign. Folks with smart phones who want to stop and scan that code would get linked to the Bike Pittsburgh map and see all the routes from that point.


jeffinpgh
2010-10-07 19:48:12

I like the idea of giving two options if it is appropriate, a direct/hilly way and a flat way. If the sign lists "minutes" rather than miles, even better. List two ways, give the times, and put a hill icon next to one. That is what way-finding is for, yea? You can do this up to a point...if there are two dozen things listed on each post, I see it being impractical.


dwillen
2010-10-07 19:49:03

Equally useful (and far less high-techy...maybe) would be a 6"x8" placard below the sign that has the map on it. Less maintenance with the same benefits.


morningsider
2010-10-07 19:51:00

When my grandparents first moved here in the 70s(or when the belts were first put in place, whichever makes logical sense), grandma drove all around on each one, having fun getting to know the area. At some point, they were complete loops. I think they still are, just perhaps choice signs have been removed by vandals.


I use them constantly. I work on the red loop (which sign helps me not turn too early), I live just off the yellow loop (helps me get from South to East without a convenient highway). I've used them when I didn't know where I was going ("ok, there's a green loop sign, and I need to be east-ish, if I follow it it should intersect something I recognize... yay! I'm not lost anymore!) and to judge distance to where I was going (radially, being on the green loop is closer to "civilization" than being on the orange loop, so I chose highways accordingly).


They are horrid if you are looking for the fastest way to get somewhere, as they include no highways and were never intended to find specific locations. I've found them most useful when the only way to get from A to B that I knew of was to go all the way back in to the city again, and I wasn't in the mood for that (and I have no GPS).


I think bike chains around the city would be fun, and easy - just a sign. No promise of flat riding (we're in Pgh, not Florida), just a loop.


edited to add - we need more bridges over the Ohio, glancing at the Bike pgh map, it looks like we'd have enough to get two chains (including the McKees Rocks Bridge) before we get too far in to the boonies to be reasonable, maybe Sewickly bridge is just off the map but there's not much West of here.


ejwme
2010-10-07 19:54:34

I don't think the Red Belt was ever a full loop. It's good riding all the way from Ambridge to Tarentum though...


jeffinpgh
2010-10-07 19:59:31

the only belts that are complete loops are blue and purple. i saw a wqed special on the belts.


cburch
2010-10-07 20:00:13

I stand corrected. And my point has been underscored. These things are for those that don't know their way. If you live in Pittsburgh, know where you are going, and you are prepared for the hill that you have to pull to get there, do you need the sign to tell you which direction and how many miles it will be?


morningsider
2010-10-07 20:02:24

Morningsider, I'd say yea. I've lived here for 2 years now, and I still have to look at a map to figure out how to get home from some areas. I usually go really round-a-bout ways where I know I won't get lost. If there is a direct, bike-friendly route, I would love for there to be signs.


This is infinitely more important for those who have always lived in PGH, know their way around, but haven't biked in their adult life. Imagine if your route from Shadyside to Greenfield in your car is through Squirrel Hill? It is the way my other half takes in her car, vroooom up Negley. Whenever I get in the car, I drive down 5th and go through Schenley park, because thats the way I go on my bike.


These things should be a recruitment tool for new cyclists. "Hey, it only takes 10 minutes to bike to ____ from here? Cool!"


dwillen
2010-10-07 20:18:39

ok, so don't point any up Negley or Rialto, but if you're an out of towner and bold enough to go exploring on a foreign city's streets (a la that SF guy from a thread a few weeks ago), probably you can handle a hill or two... never said anything about miles to get there (belts don't have miles or destinations).


This is seperate and distinct from the planned signeage, though, I apologize if my idea of an adaptation of a road navigation system that others find mostly useless but I have a strange fondness for has derailed the conversation.


But I still can't see the options!


ejwme
2010-10-07 20:23:57

Right. Again, you identified the things I was trying to advocate. My question may have confused things. I asked if you already knew where you were going and were prepared for the hills, did you need the signs. For those, whether from Pittsburgh or not, that needed more options, they should be there.


morningsider
2010-10-07 20:26:45

It is mostly a recreation thing, rather than a commuter route, but it is perfect for people visiting from out of town who want to ride bikes.


Maybe they could incorporate Bob's bike map (http://pdfs.bobsmaps.com/eend_bike.pdf) for this.


ieverhart
2010-10-07 20:56:57

Why does that map show Penn as "Mostly Cycling Unfriendly?" Don't the sharrows make it "Mostly Friendly?"


morningsider
2010-10-08 00:25:04

Explain to me how putting some sort of decision tree on a road sign is going to be usable or understood.


It seems you haven't ridden in a city with a wayfinding system in place. it is really useful, helps alleviate stress, and makes sure you stay on the more bike friendly streets, which aren't always the most direct, obvious, or main arterial. a big part of riding in this city is knowledge of the roads. ie which ones to take and which ones not to take. once you learn the better roads for cycling, it completely changes your experience. the idea of this is to lower the learning curve. i don't know what else to say beyond that.


erok
2010-10-08 01:11:54

I'm not too worried about the design of the sign, but the placement within the right-of-way. Signage in the city a atrocious. Too high on a utility pole, too low and obscured by vegetation. It's horribad.


sloaps
2010-10-08 01:25:42

Yeah, I was riding on the blvd of the allies today, sorta by accident. It was stressful. Not that a wayfinding system would have prevented that for me, but maybe for someone who was simply trying to get to Squirrel Hill without being clever.


lyle
2010-10-08 02:14:07

@erok--I think the comment about a decision tree was an argument against a complex sign with multiple route options for the same destination, rather than against a directional sign in general. I don't want that point to get lost (whoever made it) because I think it's a good one. These signs need to be fairly simply and easily grasped as you ride by them to be effective. (Plus, if it's easy to understand, a person zipping by in a car at 35 mph (as if! okay 50mph)can see the sign they might think "hey, I should try that on a bike some time."


jeffinpgh
2010-10-08 12:10:06

+1 what jeffinpgh said. I was initially responding to a suggested "kiosk," and then something that sounded like a decision tree. You're right, I've never ridden in a city with a "wayfinder" system, so I don't know what that is. Regardless, signs need to be practical and easy to use. My position is that if you put too much information on them they stop being useful and simply become confusing.


@erok - on the off-chance there are other readers of this thread who might benefit from the information, perhas you might more ully explain what a "wayfinder" system is. From what I can glean, it sounds like it is more than just a signage system, and if so, perhaps conflating the two is muddling the discussion.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-08 13:40:14

On nice weekends there should just be friendly, smiling, attractive, young, bike pgh bicycle guides riding around to help people and hand out Bike Pgh maps and info.


Hosted by imgur.com


I would do it but I look more like a cop.


edmonds59
2010-10-08 14:12:03

sorry if i came off snooty earlier, that wasn't my intent


erok
2010-10-08 14:12:26

bicycle hall monitor


erok
2010-10-08 14:12:52

i also agree that signage in this city is atrocious, but 80% of the signs don't apply to me, so when you're riding it's easy to filter out all but the relevant ones.


erok
2010-10-08 14:14:55

@erok - me too.


(So if that's a wayfinder type sign, how is that different from "Squirrell Hill 3 miles? Is it just the addition of the minutes? And for what it's worth, i still think that type of signage would be hard to do because of all the wacky twists and turns our roads take.)


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-08 14:16:36

Here's one of my favorite example of bad signage. Years ago there was (perhaps still is) a sign on Beechwood Blvd near Brownshill/Hazelwood. It was brown in color, about 15 feet off the ground, and said "Pittsburgh Zoo" with an arrow pointing up Beechwood in a general sort of way. Good luck with that though, because I don't recall seeing any other signs. And when you finally twist and turn your way all the way to Mellon Park and Fifth avenue, what then?


I think the key to Wayfinding signs is that you find them at places where you need to turn, you find one every so often confirming you and on the right route and etc. If you have confidence in the signs you can enjoy your ride more. These signs are not going to be used by people from here who know where they are going. They are going to be used by people from elsewhere (which could just mean the burbs) who are trying to see our city by bike, or new arrivals who want to use a bike to get around but are somewhat confused by all the "wacky twists and turns our roads take." I think both minutes and mileage are useful--they no doubt use some sort of standard speed to devise the timing (12mph?). Some people find it easier to work with times, some with distance. On a long route in a system, you'd pass several signs and be able to make mental adjustments on your own.


edit--and like @sloaps said, the signs themselves are placed so that you can see them!


jeffinpgh
2010-10-08 14:30:10

i think another user group is longer term residents who do know the city a bit, and are picking up biking for the first time. even for a long term resident, there's a good chance that you don't know how all of the non arterial streets connect


in a way, you need to unlearn what you have learned (sorry for the gratuitous yoda quote), and learn different ways of getting there.


i lived here for years, and would take fifth to penn to get from oakland to the food coop. that sucked. then i finally learned some of the back roads, it was all of the sudden pleasant and fun.


erok
2010-10-08 14:44:21

erok - I'm a "third-grouper" as well, and it does take some time to transition from simply following the car routes I am accustomed to. One thing I think might be worth looking into - and separate from this signage question - is formalizing some of the cycling routes across town. Routes that not only get you from place to place, but also do so safely, on roads or streets with sharrows or dedicated bike lanes, routes that take advantage of existing trails, etc.


I'm a little slow, now that I'm thinking of it in these terms, maybe this is just the "beltway" idea repackaged for bikes.


atleastmykidsloveme
2010-10-08 14:52:09

Another, more practical, example: say you are on a nice long ride on a predetermined route (a chain, if you will) and you have to abort for a family emergency or an appointment you forgot. Well, what now? Sure, I know Oakland is 3 miles in that direction, but can I get there faster if I take this road and climb the associated three hills?


I know it can't be implemented for a family emergency I may or may not have in the future; but I think the real estate that goes along with a sign post is valuable and could be very useful.


morningsider
2010-10-08 14:55:39

JeffinPgh

...."Pittsburgh Zoo" sign...


I think the key to Wayfinding signs is that you find them at places where you need to turn, you find one every so often confirming you and on the right route and etc.


+1


It would be easy to put up a few signs.


Without continuity to one's destination? Useless.


But they would look nice.


Getting a useful system of signs that would help people would require considerably more thought, work, and expense. Someone would need to think things out to get get signs placed where a newby would look for them. It would require some regular checking for missing or invisible signs.


I*'ve been in Pittsburgh since about the time they spoke French at Fort Duquesne, and I still need to study a map to get to Monroeville, North Park, South Park, or Robinson "Town Centre."


mick
2010-10-08 15:21:57

I walked around Squ'ill before I learned to drive, and am still stuck driving the same routes (though with all the stop signs, it's probably only faster in rush).


++ on the continuity. I LOVE the river signs that went up a while ago, I think that Bob guy helped with them. Exactly THAT for cyclists would be fantastic, adding the mileage would be ridiculously helpfull. If I'm in a car looking for something, I now have confidence that I'll find one of those signs in the right place at the right time - I look for them.


If the same thing happened when I was on a bike, I would probably no longer show up an hour and 40 minutes late for things b/c I underestimated timing and couldn't find the Jail Trail entrance.


ejwme
2010-10-08 15:45:44

Maybe I'm cynical, but here's what I imagine happening.

1. The city will not release the actual numbers from the poll, and claim C won.

2. C will be turned down in some committee for its uselessness.

3. We won't get any signs.


joeframbach
2010-10-08 16:04:12

Wow, look at that beautiful clean smooth pavement in that P'land picture. I'd kill for some of that.


lyle
2010-10-08 16:05:20

In their bike presentation, the Portland people showed a slide of their lack of bike infrastructure in a low-income neighborhood. It was brand new, smooth pavement 4(?) lane road, ADA curb cuts for the sidewalk, modern pedestrian signals on the lights. I think more than a few of us giggled.


dwillen
2010-10-08 16:10:13

@dwillen- were they trying to show where they still need to improve thus the laughter becuase their bad was better than our good? Or were they making the point that their infrastructure is so good that even the bad is good. or something else? surely they must know what truly "horrible" infrastructure looks like.


tabby
2010-10-08 16:13:55

I can hear the excuses...


"but Portland doesn't have the extreme weather we have here in Pennsylvania, that's how come our roads are so bad comparatively. It's the extreme weather."


That's always been the excuse I've heard for why our highways are washboards up to the political boundaries of the state, then smoothe out for miles. I'm sure that's as good an excuse as any.


Or maybe "if we put in decent sidewalks, pedestrians would just abuse them, walking all over them everywhere, using them up"?


at least we have top of the line sports facilities.


ejwme
2010-10-08 16:41:04

@ejwme- the other excuse about the roads that I have heard is that since PA had highways first, ours are older and therefore in worse shape.


yes, that's the problem with sidewalks- it forces everyone to acknowledge that there are pedestrians. I was in a no sidewalk town last weekend and it made me very sad to so SO MANY peds and bikeres on the shoulder. They would be traveling in both directions too some salmoning and some not so you know they would have to stop and go around each other. I've never seen so many people walking in a place designed for cars.


tabby
2010-10-08 16:52:27

I think they were showing they still had work to do, but yea.. their example of bad has better pavement than my preferred cycling corridors right now. The road might have speeding cars and be bad in other ways that the picture didn't get across.


dwillen
2010-10-08 16:59:12

Tabby - that excuse is horrid too! Maybe if roads had an 80 year life span, the "ours are older" would work... But I'm pretty sure that a survey of roads in other places 10 years older than ours would not reveal a meaningfull average of decay consistent with our same roads in 2000. or 20 and 1990. maybe 90 and 1920... but that proves it's a maintenance issue.


The sidewalks... that's just shamefull.


But it's not safe to assume that they know what truly horrible infrastructure is - I'm quite sure there are places with worse infrastructure than PGH who would also giggle when we complain. Anywhere in West Africa comes to mind, but I'm sure there's places in the US (Detroit area probably, those roads were abysmal). It's all relative.


ejwme
2010-10-08 17:05:27

Belts - Purple, Blue, Yellow and Orange are complete circles. Green and Red are (northerly) arcs. Developed in the 1950s, the idea was to help people get around the city rather than through it. Blue approximates the city line of Pittsburgh. The others are at radii of multiples of about 3 miles beyond that.


How well they were accepted -- and how well any bike signage we come up with will be accepted -- is subjectively variable by person. Some people will get lost while being led by hand. Others can navigate through a strange area without any help at all. When I came to Pgh in 1982, I found the Belt System very helpful in getting around, and still do.


There is no perfect system. I think all we need to do is try.


stuinmccandless
2010-10-08 20:22:01

Purple, Blue, Yellow and Orange are complete circles.


I was lost southwest of the city in a car once. I found the Orange Belt and knew I would be OK if I followed it.


I encountered a sign "End of Orange Belt."


Wikipedia gives a good explantion. The Orange Belt was once complete.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Belt


mick
2010-10-08 22:13:12