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Well, if people are complaining and shielding their eyes, shouldn't you try pointing the light down? And if you can't ride as fast as you like with the light pointed down, perhaps you should consider slowing down at night.

I usually cover the light when approaching oncoming joggers and walkers. If you can temporarily shield or aim it lower, that helps and is appreciated.

Others will disagree, but I don't think there's any such thing as too bright. This opinion may or may not be informed by an incident that I had with a car back in February where I was apparently not seen despite having about 6 different lights on and despite it still being light out... I want it to be inconceivable that a driver would not see me. Some still won't, because they aren't looking, but I want all the lumens I can get.

But — I do really hate getting blinded by people's insane helmet lights and stuff in places like Panther Hollow, so I try not to do that to people. My solution is that I turn my bright light down to a lower setting (in the 100-lumens-or-less ballpark, and definitely off of flashy mode), and since it is on my handlebars, I tilt it down so that it's not shining directly into anyone's eyes. Sometimes, if the trail is really empty, I'll leave it tilted normally and just tilt it down when I see someone else coming.

I can understand the concern about safety, but I find that just tilting it down and turning the brightness down is a good compromise — and I feel bad that I might be compromising the safety of other cyclists if I'm blinding them so that they can't see anything. I probably wouldn't want to engage in a full-out sprint with my light like that, but for reasonable trail speeds, it's plenty of visibility. Then when I get back on the road, anything is fair game (since car headlights will always be more obnoxious than my bike light)

I find an oncoming flashing light more disruptive to my vision than a steady one...are people complaining while you're in flashing mode, steady, or both?

Do these same people yell at every on coming car too?

Cars have cutoffs as required by federal DOT standards.

Of course that doesn't preclude people from aiming them improperly.

Edit: Here's what a good projector can do:

I've thought about building a proper projector for cycling, but I honestly only see one person a month with a light bright enough that would require it.

I have never given anyone a hard time about it, but when I am riding in the city at night on the trails I am frequently momentarily blinded by approaching bicycling lights. I do not think most of the riders are aware of how bright the lights are and that they are causing an issue. I do not know if they are correct, but I have read online blogs that maintain even basic lights can momentarily blind approaching riders. These lights give off far less light then the 100 lumens cited or other lights currently for sale. Etiquette and awareness may be what is needed in the future because the lights sure aren't going to get less bright. I don't think you can expect it not to happen. A considerate bicyclist may just not have time or be delirious after a tough ride and not have time to adjust the light to keep it from blinding approaching riders.

With a 250 lumen light they're complaining that loudly? I have a 900 lumen I love and use without hesitation on maximal brightness on the trails.

It's a steady beam (nothing flashing). When there's someone facing me I do drop the light level to about half, and point the cone down a bit if I can do so conveniently (I'm a klutz, so not always). I also always slow down quite a bit passing people to avoid giving a scare.

But still, that's a ton more light and nobody has complained to me. Is it just absolutely pitch dark out there? If so, maybe that explains the pupil dilation and discomfort, but if it's that dark I also have to wonder what someone is doing out there without a flashlight.

@Freakflag A considerate bicyclist may just not have time or be delirious after a tough ride and not have time to adjust the light to keep it from blinding approaching riders.

+1

A lot depends on how the light is pointed and whether it is flashing. I dont' think you can have a light too bright - but you can have one pointed into people's eyes.

If people on trails are yelling at you and shielding their eyes, then it is also a problem for drivers.

Think about it - you don't want to have motorists averting their eyes, if there is some reason they have to pass closely.

When I ride on teh sidewalk, if a pedestrial is coming towards me, I point my light down.

I went on a group ride with someone who had a bright flashing light pointed way to high. On Carson St. you could see it on the retroreflective signs above intersections two or even three blocks away. Sooner or later there will be (and should be) laws against that.

The first time s0omeone suggested a bright helmet light to me, I was utterly appalled. WTF? Some of the reasons I ride are based on community responsibility. As in not supporting oil companies and despotic governments that run on oil money, not runininbg the environment jsut to get places a little faster, tec. Part of community I like is interactiing with people as I travel.

In the last year or so, more and more bikers make it obvious that a wave, a nod, or a bell ring is not completely welcome. I guess it's one consequence of the growing success of biking in the city.

The first time s0omeone suggested a bright helmet light to me, I was utterly appalled.

Sounds utterly appalling for sure.

I really see it on the dark city trails. It happens on the jail trail, over on the north side, and the section on the southside going to the Glenwood bridge, so it can be very dark. There is a surprising number of people riding out there at night. There is a homeless guy on a bike who frequents the Glenwwod Bridge section and even he has a light!! Come to think of it, I can't really remember it happening on city streets with some kind of lighting.

Look online for thousands of observations on lights, some silly and some not so silly. One idea is to mount a light closer down to the front wheel.

I just think most people do not think of it, any problem is momentary and I just kinda grumble and then shrug it off without confronting anyone or yelling at them. Also, it never seems to be a helmet light-always a handlebar mounted light.

The other thing about bright lights is that THAY ARE GREAT!!! Really. It is just amazing how much they help. I had a light die on me at South Park last summer and as a result, took a bad fall. Wow that hurt. Damn light.

Yeah, I really like my dynamo lights. When I got them I stopped worrying about riding at night. It's not just that they're bright enough, it's that I never have to worry about them not working, buying or recharging batteries, etc. They are just always there. So whether it's dark out or not makes no difference.

^What Jon said.

I usually buy dynamo headlights that adhere to the German standards for road use, so they have a nice asymmetric beam with a cut-off specifically designed to avoid blinding oncoming road users.

With comtemporary dynamo systems, do they still go out as soon as you stop? (Say to make a left turn at a busy intersection)?

There's a capacitor-driven standlight in the ones I have (Supernova). But it's not very bright.

@jonawebb - does your supernova have a way to control the maximum brightness or is it always on max brightness?

It's not adjustable. But like Dan says, there's a version that cuts off the light to be compatible with the German rules on light pattern so that it doesn't blind drivers. That's the one I have, too.

Peter White has some decent beam pattern photos on his website, for both battery-powered and dynamo-powered lights. You'll be able to see the difference between the symmetric and asymmetric beam patterns pretty easily, especially near the bottom of the page with the E3 shots.

Also, note that some of the headlights with the asymmetric pattern are available in battery versions, not just dynamo.

Thanks for all the replies!

I'm still sticking with my opinion that 250 Lumens is minimal. It is also strange that up until about two moonths ago, no one complained. The vocal complaints are confined to maybe two people and the shielders are also few and far between.

For the record, I've tried duplicating the oncoming view by parking my bike with the ligfht on and walking into the beam at various angles. I do not find it glaring or blinding, even looking directly into the light. Lets consider my forward speed plus the forward speed of another cyclist and you get a closing of maybe few seconds. A momentary glace to the side, at worst, should take care of it.

900 Lumens?! Wow! If I did a lot of night riding on serious single track, or was as fast as I used to be, I'd be all over that, but for what I do, I've found 250 is fine. I support you if you got more light, though!

I use the flash mode primarily for daylight hours or very early twilight. I've read, and unscientifically found, that flashing lights attract more attention than a static light. Come full dark, I switch over as I want to SEE as well as bee SEEN. That's were the extra brightness come into play.

I used to have various generator lights. I liked them until I had to comp to a full stop. That was before the capacitor aided system someone mentioned were around, so I never tried one of those. I've tried the cheaper ones, but they make better flashlights for walking than riding.

Be bright and stay safe!

@jon/dan, where'd you get your dynamo stuff? Peter White? I suspect I am going to want a dynamo setup one day, although I'm trying to keep myself from spending money on it anytime soon. I wish that stuff was more readily available in the U.S.

I ordered mine through QBP. I have a friend who has a friend who can get QBP's wholesale prices.

If things work out the way I expect I'm going to be switching to Dirk Strothmann's "Magnic" light system early next year (http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/dynamodirk/magnic-light-get-new-energy). So then I'll have a used dynamo system for sale.

Well, I might just know who you could sell that used dynamo system to when the time comes around. What kind of setup do you have now?

Supernova E3 headlight, E3 taillight, internally wired, Schmidt SON hub + a 700c rim, I think Mavic A719.

Cool. Spoke count?

There is not too bright. Cars are around 1,500 lumens with normal bulbs, HID's are 2-3 times that. Asymmetrical or properly aimed it key.

One things I might add, I had a co-worker who commuted by bike only in daylight because he was uncomfortable at night even after he bought a really nice front and rear light. After he purchased a helmet light he had the confidence to ride night or day. He felt much more at ease at night with it. After a few negative comments about it from other cyclist he stopped using it and stopped commuting at night then eventually stopped commuting by bike. I told him if the light gets him on the bike use it. Once he mounted it back on he never stopped commuting again.

@pearmask: I've bought two SON dynamo wheels from Peter White. Peter makes damn fine wheels.

That said, you can save a whole lotta money by going with a Shimano hub (slightly less efficient, less than half the price, nicer connectors) instead of the bling-tastic SON. I built one up based on a Shimano dynamo for my commuter, and I can't tell the difference between that and the SON wheels.

@Mr Marv: I almost always ride with a good helmet light as well. I look for a model with a low-power be seen mode, to augment my dynamo headlight; but also a high-power mode good enough to see by, for use on narrow trails or if my primary light craps out for some reason.

I'm always checking out the vibe of the people around me when I ride. I'm looking for cool, friendly interaction. They mean a lot to me.

Taht also keeps me aware of bad things that might be about to happen, but I'm mainly interested in the positive.

I'm guessing a bright helmet light would preclude most of the good interactions - and prevent me from being aware of human hazards.

I think it's 32. The rim will need replaced not too soon from now (why do rims wear out now? They never used to.)

But anyway, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I'll contact you once I'm sure Dirk had delivered on the Magnic light promise.

Yeah, reddan, that's what I hear. I hear ordering from him can also be a bit of a pain since he doesn't really do interwebs very well, but if I decide to get one built up, I'll still consider going through him. I guess I shouldn't derail this thread too much further into dynamo talk, but next time I see you I might interrogate you further about your setups

@jon, yeah, I was just curious / no pressure / just let me know if you do indeed find yourself with a dynamo surplus sometime in the future

Also I have passed cyclist with super bright blinking lights on trails and streets. I have never been blinded, or crashed, or needed to pull over, they pass in seconds and move on. Even the brightest of lights really haven't really been a problem. It's the same thing I tell drivers your only behind me for seconds till you pass. The cyclist passes me then they are gone.

@mm You have your own light, your pupils are not open that wide while walkers relay on their own eyes and no light. It's much harder to adopt to darkness again after light. It takes minutes.

An article I wrote a year ago.

http://www.recumbentjournal.com/views/columns/item/485-views-on-equipment-choices-for-nighttime-cycling.html

In StVZO compliant lights, I have used a B&M Cyo T and a B&M Ixon IQ. The latter being a reasonably priced battery light that takes AAs. Both work wonderfully without blinding anyone.

Mr marvelous The cyclist passes me then they are gone.

And the orange spots remain behind.

And possibly the consequences of a driver looking away when they should be tracking you.

Very nice write-up Tom, thanks for sharing.

I use the Blaze 1W rated at 76 lumens. On the road, I typically use it in the flashing mode which tends to irritate motorists. I've been yelled at numerous times, and even caused people to run red lights to get away from it. I pretty quickly adopted a strategy of pointing it away from cars when I am stopped at a light. On trails, I will put it in a steady beam mode, and I've once been yelled out by a cyclist who said he was blinded. Once, riding on the jail trail, I was blinded by someone using a light a bit brighter than my own. All I could see was an ultra bright light in front of me until the rider passed. I was able to see in front of me enough to ride, but it was irritating nonetheless. Perhaps pointing the light downward instead of level is the best thing to do?

@brybot Perhaps pointing the light downward instead of level is the best thing to do?

+1

There is no such thing as too bright.

But there is pointing in eyes and blinking.

Unfortunately I have had to do more driving lately than I have in a couple of years.(driving post-op family members around) When driving I notice blinking lights several blocks before steady lights. When coming to an intersection the reflection of the blinking light is noticeable before I can see the bike. I can see the blinking light even if the cyclist is obscured by a building or vehicle. I've noticed the steady light tends to blend in with other lights.

Fortunately my car is back in my garage where it belongs now and I'm back on the bike.

Speaking of too-bright lights, if anybody's looking I thought I'd mention the DesignShine project. I've been on the waiting list for quite a while and I just took delivery on the tail light, very pleased so far.

Man, how had I not looked at those B&M battery-powered lights? Want.

On a dark-ish trail (like Junction) I'll use the non-blink light, pointed down to about 10m ahead of me. On streets it's always on blink. (And the back is always on blink.)

My impression is that most riders on trails use steady lights. I like the fact that you can see people approaching from a good distance. It's great. If you don't have lights, draft someone who does (if you can).

Bikers with crappy (low-lumen) lights are dangerous. I find them hard to spot and have to pay more attention to be able to notice them. (So you can imagine what car drivers are dealing with.)

Bike lights (and car head-lights) are not blinding if you don't look at them directly; just look at the ground that they're illuminating, or to the side of the road. Works for me.

Saw someone coming down Forbes near Dallas around 6:30 last night with a really bright light. As bright as a motorcycle or car headlight. Totally cool.

Sometimes you can have all the lighting in the world and it won't help, especially if the other person is in HUA mode. See my blog for one such account: Dragonman's Bicycle Blog

Actually, this is a better link, it goes direct to the story: Dragonman's Bicycle Blog - Dangerous Distracted Riding

Awful story but a great blog, +1 !

Not meaning to be a crank, but it seems like the Weaver gave plenty of advance notice that she was an accident waiting to happen, and maybe it would have been prudent to slow to even less than 12 mph when passing. I observe people trying to maintain a "pace" on the trails and it does cause me to wonder. Sometimes as they say discretion is the better part of valor. Sorry to hear of your injuries, glad it wasn't worse. Also FWIW I am NO fan of earbuds when riding.

Back to the original question of how bright is too bright. Let's first compare the lights on a bike to the other lights on the road. Traffic signal lights are over 1,000 lumens (some even 2,000). Brake lights are 350-500 lumens x 4. Headlights can be 1500+ lumens. Police sirens are designed to be seen from 2+ miles away. The lights that a typical cyclist rides with are an absolute JOKE in terms of brightness when compared to those above. That's why they are often still unnoticed until they are 20 feet a motorist (sometimes that's already too late). Consider the playing field you are competing against when you choose how bright of a light you really need. When the police/fire/EMT's want to be seen by other other motorists/cyclists/pedestrians, they use bright flashing lights. People simply respond out of instinct when they see flashing lights (even in the corner of their eyes). Motorists making a left turn might or might not notice a cyclist coming the other direction, but they are much more likely to notice flashing lights and the cyclist attached to them. Those flashing lights illuminate more than the profile of the bike and therefore offer an exponentially larger array of surfaces to project onto and be seen my motorists BEFORE they see your bike. Lastly, I challenge anyone to find a single documented case of a driver/cyclist/ped that was in an accident caused by "blinding cycling lights". Compare those to all of the cyclists that are hit by motorists who "never saw the cyclist". Instead of hoping that another car notices your existence, increase the odds in your favor by having bright, blinking lights in the front and back of your bike. Slightly annoyed drivers vs getting blindsided by a motorist who isn't paying attention. Your choice.

Just one comment on dynamo lights. You are at a stop and your bike is producing zero light since there is no power source when at zero velocity. You emerge from the stop with either zero or extremely dim lighting. The cars around you and the ones approaching (from any direction) hit you since they don't see you or your lights. Yes, dynamo lights look good on paper. But in practice, they present multiple scenarios in which they can fail. Additionally, the amount of current they can generate might not be nearly enough to power all of the lights on the bike.

High end dynamo lighting systems incorporate battery back-ups to resolve the standing stop problem. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/b&m-hl.asp

Dragonman, I'm afraid your post doesn't belong in this "How Bright Is Too Bright" thread. It clearly concerns a dim bulb. :-) Edmonds59, if the clueless cyclist was doing 10 mph, as stated, I'm not sure Dragonman could have gone much slower and still gotten past. I don't know how to safely pass somebody who weaves across the entire trail and won't respond to shouting. Was he supposed to just remain behind the clueless cyclist indefinitely? (I suppose clearing the tunnel and waiting for a rideable shoulder before trying to pass might have been safer in hindsight, but that could take a long time on some trails.)

@UnrealMachine, dynamos these days work pretty well, I think mostly because LED technology has gotten so good. They're useful to have on long rides and on daily commutes since you don't have to worry about batteries. You just hop on your bike and go. But I would always combine them with helmet-mounted lights for the reasons you mention, and as a backup. @Edmonds, I think you're talking about standlights, powered by capacitors. I was never happy with the light output of them on fancy Supernova lights.

@jonawebb It depends on what the current draw requirements are for the individual light setup. My point was that some of the most critical lighting demands (instances where a cyclist needs to be visually detected by a motorist) are when a cyclist is moving at a slow speed or at a stop. The dynamo light will simply not be able to supply the necessary current and the lights will be dim or completely off when you need them the most. While LEDs are constantly evolving, so to is battery technology. Lithium ion batteries are light and powerful. A 4x18650 setup can provide 5200+ mAh for $50 or less and weigh ~220 grams. Most lights are driven at well under 1A in flash mode so you can easily get 6-10 hours or run time. Often much more.

UnrealMachine wrote:

Additionally, the amount of current they can generate might not be nearly enough to power all of the lights on the bike.

Out of curiosity (as I've used dynamos in addition to battery-powered lights for many years, and have had no problems), what dynamo were you using, and what lights were you trying to power? (Also, just FYI: dynamo hubs are mostly constant current, in the range of 300-500 milliamps. If you wire the lights in series, you don't really have to worry about "not enough current to power all the lights", barring a truly spectacular number of LED emitters.) In my experience, battery systems generally beat dynamos on cost, portability, and (as mentioned above) remaining brightly-lit while stationary for long periods of time. Dynamos beat battery systems for convenience/usability (install, turn on headlight and tailight, and forget about it) and for use in cold weather (as every battery light I've used drops in output significantly as the temperature drops below freezing, but dynamo-driven lights are unaffected). Both have points of mechanical/electrical failure, of course. I take the same tack as Jon; my dynamo drives the lights permanently affixed to my bike, and I have a decent set of battery-powered lights on my helmet as backup. If I really wanted to be spiffy, I'd invest in the dynamo lighting system which also charges AA batteries, so I could charge my helmet light batteries while riding.

@reddan I have not used a dynamo to power my lights. My helmet light alone is driven at 2.38A (MS 880 clone). I understand that the current is constant on a dynamo, but that only occurs once the bike attains a certain minimum velocity (do you happen to know what that is?). It's certainly possible to have the dynamo wired in series to a Li-Ion, but that would strain the battery with too many charge/discharge cycles. Way more economical to just charge the battery when needed (read: keep track of your ride time and recharge before battery goes dead).

The minimum velocity is pretty low -- a little faster than walking. But dynamos do produce less current than batteries. It would be really hard to beat a battery for current. I think the choice of a lighting system depends on more than just light. Me, I would always be forgetting to recharge the batteries. I like the freedom of not having to worry about things with a dynamo. Your bike becomes something you can depend on anytime. The night is irrelevant. I almost ran into a biker coming up the wrong way this morning (in the dark) on the Forbes bike lane, just after the cut through from Beechwood. No lights, no helmet, just riding along. People really do need to get some lights, especially now with days getting shorter. They are expensive, especially if you've spent $20 or nothing on your bike, but you really need them.

UnrealMachine wrote:

I understand that the current is constant on a dynamo, but that only occurs once the bike attains a certain minimum velocity (do you happen to know what that is?).

I've not measured output while riding, so can speak only anecdotally. On a Schmidt 28 or Shimano DH-3n7x hub, flickering stops and the light becomes steady at a slow walking pace of 2-3 mph...even while 'enjoying' extended late-night hill climbs at 4-6 mph, I get plenty of light. That said, I have seen a classic dynamo system from the 70s in use (bottle dynamo mounted to frame with brush rubbing sidewall of tire, halogen lamp), and it was certainly not what I'd consider adequate. No standlight, no wired taillight, and no real light output until 10+ mph. As far as charging goes, I prefer lights that I can either not worry about at all, or recharge by buying batteries at a convenience store at 4 AM. Because I A) suck at remembering to charge things and B) occasionally find myself riding extended distances overnight. Of course, I freely stipulate that my use patterns are not those of most cyclists...

Steven wrote:Was he supposed to just remain behind the clueless cyclist indefinitely?

Whoa Nelly, that sounds suspiciously like the position some drivers take in the car/bike relationship, and we're always going on about how they should wait until it's safe to pass. I can easily ride as slow as 3 mph if need be. He didn't mention that he was delivering a donor heart, so I assume stopping was an option, but maybe this is a subject for another thread.

My question is more along the lines of, ok, cyclist ahead keeps drifting, keeps drifting, unresponsive to shouts why keep shouting? Why not hit the breaks earlier and more gently and just make for the opposite side of the (apparently decently wide) trail so there's room to pass someone totally oblivious safely? I think we all do that at some point or another around oblivious earbuds in walkers and joggers. But anyways, maybe the drift was faster than portrayed, and of course hindsight is 20/20. Referring back to the thread title, too bright is hard to find. I have accidentally had my headlight aimed too high, however.

@edmonds59: OK, that's a fair point. So I guess the answer is yes. If you can't pass a bike on a trail safely, you wait for as long as it takes, even if the bike you're trying to pass is swerving randomly across the entire path. Maybe especially then. @byogman: As I understand it, the clueless cyclist was swerving enough that there wasn't a safe side. As I recall, the National Tunnel has ruts, dripping water, and it's relatively dark so you have less time to react to them. That could have been responsible for a lot of the swerving. Maybe avoid passing in tunnels if you can help it?

byogman wrote:

Referring back to the thread title, too bright is hard to find. I have accidentally had my headlight aimed too high, however.

Me too...I've blinded a few pedestrians on Smithfield St Bridge that way. Personally, I think the more important question is "how bright is bright enough?"

edmonds59 wrote:High end dynamo lighting systems incorporate battery back-ups to resolve the standing stop problem. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/b&m-hl.asp

Thanks for this link, I actually found a fork mount light there that fits my needs! A handlebar headlamp is useless for illuminating the ground in front of me with a front basket. I also love their sense of humor. I found this while poking around looking for a fork mount: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/wmds.htm

reddan wrote:as every battery light I’ve used drops in output significantly as the temperature drops below freezing, but dynamo-driven lights are unaffected

As winter comes, this is reminder is timely. I rid in all weather. Bad conditions+ inadequate light is not optimal. Will look into being a dYnAmO!

Mick, just watch out for that dynamo hum.

UnrealMachine wrote: Yes, dynamo lights look good on paper. But in practice, they present multiple scenarios in which they can fail. Additionally, the amount of current they can generate might not be nearly enough to power all of the lights on the bike.

I keep an extra blinker on my dynamo powered bike for this reason, you adapt. At some point, I'd like to add a 300 lumen helmet light to my set up. I do agree that this is a weak spot for some dynamo setups, although my brake light stays on for a good ten minutes at close to full brightness even when my headlight goes out. I also keep a separate blinky on the back as a 1w LED tends to grab attention better.

edmonds59 wrote:Not meaning to be a crank, but it seems like the Weaver gave plenty of advance notice that she was an accident waiting to happen, and maybe it would have been prudent to slow to even less than 12 mph when passing. I observe people trying to maintain a “pace” on the trails and it does cause me to wonder. Sometimes as they say discretion is the better part of valor. Sorry to hear of your injuries, glad it wasn’t worse. Also FWIW I am NO fan of earbuds when riding.

I think you nailed it... and Dragonman admitted to all of these things in the blog, even if they were played down. The earbuds aren't the biggest part of the problem with the other rider, the fact that Dragonman was behind her for a while and she was unaware of his presence in addition to the wearing of earbuds was the problem (but, we've already determined that she was a novice rider swerving around). I think it is important that Dman confronted her to make her aware of some things, but ultimately, the responsibility lands on the OP. You choose a bad place to pass, a place where you are not expected to pass, a place where it is more difficult for a novice to look over her shoulder and see you. There were a lot of things within your control. I can't help but think how much worse this could have been if a ninja no-light cyclist came from the other direction. I totally understand your anger and frustration, but take the earbuds out of the picture and it still could have played out the same way for various reasons. I am sorry that you had to experience this, that sucks, and I appreciate the blog and your taking the time to share the experience. *edit to add* you have a real knack for writing!

Drewbacca wrote:You choose a bad place to pass, a place where you are not expected to pass

Why? I rode this part of trail quite few times and can tell that people pass other people both on two wheels and on "two legs" in this tunnel.

Mikhail wrote: Why? I rode this part of trail quite few times and can tell that people pass other people both on two wheels and on “two legs” in this tunnel.

Maybe it's just me, but I try not to pass in confined areas like over bridges and in tunnels... I wouldn't expect someone to overtake me in such a location (but then, I'd be aware of their presence and give them a chance to pass before reaching it in the first place... or I'd speed up until I got through it).

Discussion split from: http://localhost/mb/topic/hit-by-a-car/#post-284338

rice rocket wrote:7 is right around dusk at this time of year, probably the absolute worst time of day for visibility, even more than when it’s fully dark. Lights barely show up, and even flouro colors are barely visible. I very much avoid riding around then.

This is very true as evidenced by the fact that a steady beam of light does not greatly enhance a cyclist's own visibility of the road during these conditions. There is not enough contrast for this light to stand out to a passing motorist as well. A light that is flashing is perceived quite differently during dawn/dusk though. That is to say, the background reference light is now in a dynamic state with the frequency of the flash. Additionally, the light reflected off of smaller surfaces such as street signs, other vehicles, etc. will be more visible to motorists. Motorists are programmed to respond out of seeing flashing lights (police cars, etc.) and flashing lights are considerably more visible than steady lights at dawn/dusk. The best demonstration of this is to simply keep an eye out for cyclists who are using a flash mode during those time periods and compare their visibility to others using a steady beam.

Discussion split from: http://localhost/mb/topic/hit-by-a-car/

jonawebb wrote:@unrealMachine, I take back what I said about the light not being an issue — a 1/2 watt LED light with a weak battery is pushing it…

But how many cyclists are using a 1/2 watt LED or worse? I would guess that 20-25% of cyclists I see use zero lights at all. Of the remaining 75-80%, I would say that 75% of those riders equip themselves with a setup similar or worse to that 1/2 LED light. At best, less than 20% of riders have what I would consider the minimally acceptable lighting setup in terms of enhancing the visibility of the rider to motorists. Personally, I would put the number at closer to only 5-10%. Certainly the cost of lighting in relation to the bike is a great consideration, but the lighting on the bike can be just as or even more valuable to a cyclist in terms of avoiding a potential accident. Since there is no standardization for lighting, people wrongfully assume that a $10 light is going to enhance their visibility and justify that assumption by standing in front of the light and looking directly at it. Certainly all lights look bright with that approach, but real world cycling conditions expose a rider to all kinds of different distances and angles from a motorist. That's where most lights fail because in real world applications, their visibility is actually quite limited. If a motorist can only see your light from 30 feet away and staring directly into the light, it leads itself into many scenarios in which there is not enough time/space for either party to react.

Just out of curiousity, how do you judge what is minimally acceptable measures for visibility? I'll start with my "system", which was really more of an accumulation of things that seemed like good ideas at the time than anything planned. I have a 1 watt rear blinker, and a pathetic blinker in front that looks like it belongs on a keychain as the lights most frequently running. Both are helmet mounted. I have a strong (900 lumen) headlight bike mounted that I use perhaps less than I should, usually only about when streetlamps come on. I use it in steady state, not blinking mode. Side visibility used to be my weak point, but I don't think it is anymore since I plastered on retroreflective tape to the visible part of the frame (panniers block the rear) and fork. Also added the tape to the visible part of the rear fender to supplement the reflector and added strips to the sides of my helmet. I tend not to wear the hi-viz clothing, just whatever I'd be wearing normally except when I know I'll be changing (and I probably push the stink boundaries a little further than I ought).

One of the reasons I use helmet-mounted lights is that, in addition to flashing, they move around in an anthropic kind of way. That's got to help arouse a driver's empathy. Also, they're high up, so drivers can see them farther off. So even if they only look up occasionally from their texting, they've still got a chance to see me. And when I'm approaching an intersection, I can aim the headlight so it shines directly in the driver's eyes, increasing the chance they'll pay attention. Basically, you have to think of them as dull monkeys who have the ability to turn the wheel and press the brake and accelerator, but no higher brain functions, and do whatever you can to draw their notice.

"Basically, you have to think of them as dull monkeys who have the ability to turn the wheel and press the brake and accelerator, but no higher brain functions, and do whatever you can to draw their notice." as long as you do not piss them off too much in the process.... I often use a similar thought process for riding in traffic.

helen s wrote: as long as you do not piss them off too much in the process….

Yes, I believe that eye-contact is more advisable than light-in-eye-contact, when possible... I guess it depends on distance.

It's really hard to see eyes for eye contact in the dark. My helmet headlight (which is non-flashing, BTW) is the PrincetonTec Remix. It has variable brightness and when I don't need the extra brightness I doubt it will stimulate aggressive behavior in the monkey brain. If I was running it turned all the way up I'd briefly flash drivers with the light instead of just staring at them as I approach.

byogman, That's a good question. Honestly, I'd have to defer to the "I know it when I see it" answer since, as I stated, there is no standardization for bike lights here. I would base my assessment on a light setup with how it performs in terms visibility at a distance, how much square footage the light can illuminate and how it performs at close distances & sharp angles. Since you admit that your front blinker is weak and that you only use your other front light at your discretion, I would say that you are not even using your setup at its full potential. In low-lighting scenarios (~dawn/dusk) where you might be hesitant to turn on your better front light, your reliance on reflectors is completely dependent upon other sources of light (streets, vehicle, sun, etc.). Those conditions change frequently (shadows, etc.), so your setup lacks consistency as well in my opinion. Overall though I'd say you are still better off than 80-90% of the lighting setups I see. What prevents you from using your 900 lumen light as a flashing unit on a regular basis?

A thought: if your light is harder on the eyes than the low beam headlight on a new car, that's too much, IMO. That isn't uncommon. Probably more obnoxious by being smaller area light source, pointing at people's eyes, and blinking than actual brightness.

What prevents you from using your 900 lumen light as a flashing unit on a regular basis?

Just laziness and frankly a dislike for strong flashing lights. For the rear blinker there's the justification that people continuously need to be aware. In front it's really only helpful in route crossing/joining scenarios. But I suppose those are probably frequent enough that I just ought to do it anyway.

fwiw, a solid white light is legally required. you can augment it with a flashing light but not replace it. http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=35&sctn=7&subsctn=0

Mick wrote:A thought: if your light is harder on the eyes than the low beam headlight on a new car, that’s too much, IMO. That isn’t uncommon. Probably more obnoxious by being smaller area light source, pointing at people’s eyes, and blinking than actual brightness.

The lighting needs for a car and a bike are different. WAY different. First off, car lights have to meet Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108. The maximum number of watts (supplied at 12.8 volts) is 55-70. Depending on the light source and luminous efficiency, you are talking between 1100 and 3000+ lumens. Car light heads are installed in a factory (standardized) and have cutoffs, but if you catch the car coming over a hill or around a bend the light will still be shining in your eyes. Those designs conform to the dimensions of vehicles and the dimensions of the roads they use. Travel by bicycle, relatively speaking, does not enjoy those same standardized parameters so any comparison to such is already starting out on a very uneven playing field. Until someone posts an actual accident *caused by a cyclist's light that was too bright* then all of this "blinding" talk is all nonsense. Is it so hard to look away from a bright light (unless you plan on walking/driving straight into it)? Do a search for: 1) No. of accidents caused by a cyclist's light being too bright =zero; and 2) No. of accidents caused by insufficient or non-existent cycle lighting = thousands So do you want to buy a lower lumen light to "protect" all those poor road users from your "blinding" light? Or do you want to prevent an accident by being sufficiently lit?

salty wrote:http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=35&sctn=7&subsctn=0

It doesn't say that it has to be turned on or otherwise functioning. ;)

http://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/consCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&ttl=75&div=0&chpt=43&sctn=2&subsctn=0

I don't ride in the dark very often, but the other morning I had occasion to, at 6:00 am. Nite rider 650 lumen on steady on front (low setting) pointed to a pool of light 10+- feet in front to see the road, with a Blackburn voyager 1 watt set on flash beside it. On back a basic Blackburn blinky set on steady with a Planet Bike superflash on blink right next to it. I felt quite adequately lit. Also w/a viz/reflective construction vest and a reflective leg band.

@edmonds, that's pretty damn bright. For comparison, Peter White photographed various headlight beams in a standard setup here.

Apparently we're all supposed to have amber reflectors on the sides too. Anybody actually have these? I've got white reflectors in the wheels on some bikes, but no amber.

WillB wrote:Apparently we’re all supposed to have amber reflectors on the sides too. Anybody actually have these? I’ve got white reflectors in the wheels on some bikes, but no amber.

<---- *quickly scribbles on her white reflectors with an orange marker*

UnrealMachine wrote:Until someone posts an actual accident *caused by a cyclist’s light that was too bright* then all of this “blinding” talk is all nonsense.

Well, there is some problems measuring everything in lumens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_%28unit%29). While it's defined as 1 lm = 1 cd·sr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candela, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steradian) and candela is a base unit of luminous intensity weighted by the luminosity function (a standardized model of the sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths), the model itself uses continuous function with a concrete behavior. Xenon lights and especially LED do not confirm to it. That is why very often people complain that xenon/LED lights are brighter and at the same time you don't see much with those lights. Earlier LED lamp for household were so bad that with a lot of brightness you almost in darkness. And this is because of the fact that spectrum is shifted to the blue side and pupil is closed but there is not enough green/yellow part that eye could not see good enough. So in additions to lumens we need a spectrum of a particular light to be able to estimate how good is light. PS red light does not affect night vision and that is why using more "natural" warm light (shift to the yellow part which is possible if there is enough red part of spectrum) makes transition from light to darkness usually easier.

@unrealmachine Until someone posts an actual accident *caused by a cyclist’s light that was too bright* then all of this “blinding” talk is all nonsense We're talking about oragnes and apples here. I'm talking about something being seriously irritating. You're saying that because you ahve not heard of a death (there are reprots of epileptic seizures being caused by lights) that they are not obnoxious? If you are, I believe you are wrong. I've had to stop on trails until the light shining in my eyes was past. Many times. I've certainly shouted angry things at cyclists that were blinking lights in my eyes. I don't beleive I'm epileptic or anything but I am sensitive to blinking lights somehow. The comforts of car drivers is not my top priority , of course, but I'd rather not have the word bicylist to be always (and justifiably) preceded by "obnoxious." Cars have high beams that are sometimes misused. There are rules against that. Given that tickets are rarely, if ever given for that, it's surprising high beams aren't misused more. I looked for a report on fatalities inappropriate high beam use. Couldn't find any. Not one. That doesn't make misuse of high beams OK, somehow. Nor is having blinding, blinking headlights on a bike OK. So you might disagree with what I say, but calling it "nonsense?" Unreal, for sure.

edmonds59 wrote:I don’t ride in the dark very often, but the other morning I had occasion to, at 6:00 am. Nite rider 650 lumen on steady on front (low setting) pointed to a pool of light 10+- feet in front to see the road, with a Blackburn voyager 1 watt set on flash beside it. On back a basic Blackburn blinky set on steady with a Planet Bike superflash on blink right next to it. I felt quite adequately lit. Also w/a viz/reflective construction vest and a reflective leg band.

How fast were you riding? If you can only see 10 feet in front of you and are traveling at 15 mph (22 fps), you will have less than 1/2 of a second to identify, react and maneuver you bike around any potential obstacle (pot hole, debris, etc.) in your path that may not be visible without lighting.

Mikhail wrote:

UnrealMachine wrote:Until someone posts an actual accident *caused by a cyclist’s light that was too bright* then all of this “blinding” talk is all nonsense.

Well, there is some problems measuring everything in lumens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lumen_%28unit%29). While it’s defined as 1 lm = 1 cd·sr (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Candela, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steradian) and candela is a base unit of luminous intensity weighted by the luminosity function (a standardized model of the sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths), the model itself uses continuous function with a concrete behavior. Xenon lights and especially LED do not confirm to it. That is why very often people complain that xenon/LED lights are brighter and at the same time you don’t see much with those lights. Earlier LED lamp for household were so bad that with a lot of brightness you almost in darkness. And this is because of the fact that spectrum is shifted to the blue side and pupil is closed but there is not enough green/yellow part that eye could not see good enough. So in additions to lumens we need a spectrum of a particular light to be able to estimate how good is light. PS red light does not affect night vision and that is why using more “natural” warm light (shift to the yellow part which is possible if there is enough red part of spectrum) makes transition from light to darkness usually easier.

Good post. I agree that the colors can be significantly improved upon. Some of the better lighting systems offer this.

Mick wrote:@unrealmachine Until someone posts an actual accident *caused by a cyclist’s light that was too bright* then all of this “blinding” talk is all nonsense We’re talking about oragnes and apples here. I’m talking about something being seriously irritating. You’re saying that because you ahve not heard of a death (there are reprots of epileptic seizures being caused by lights) that they are not obnoxious? If you are, I believe you are wrong. I’ve had to stop on trails until the light shining in my eyes was past. Many times. I’ve certainly shouted angry things at cyclists that were blinking lights in my eyes. I don’t beleive I’m epileptic or anything but I am sensitive to blinking lights somehow. The comforts of car drivers is not my top priority , of course, but I’d rather not have the word bicylist to be always (and justifiably) preceded by “obnoxious.” Cars have high beams that are sometimes misused. There are rules against that. Given that tickets are rarely, if ever given for that, it’s surprising high beams aren’t misused more. I looked for a report on fatalities inappropriate high beam use. Couldn’t find any. Not one. That doesn’t make misuse of high beams OK, somehow. Nor is having blinding, blinking headlights on a bike OK. So you might disagree with what I say, but calling it “nonsense?” Unreal, for sure.

You keep misusing the word "blinding". Additionally, you infer that (your definition of) "blinding" lights should be removed or possibly legislated out of use. Meanwhile, there are only very specific circumstances in which a light can truly be menacing, and they have to do with the aim, proximity of those affected and the reactions of those affected. It could be an issue with a 1500+ lumens light or a 300 lumens one. For road use, which I am focusing on here, where oncoming traffic is not directly in line with the cycling light, the idea of extrapolating experiences from a trail ride (where one is almost directly in line with oncoming cyclists/PEDs at times) to a road ride is not particularly applicable or useful. Oncoming traffic should not be in the direct hotspot of the light at close distances for any considerable amount of time.

This is one of the reasons I've become fond of headlamps that include an upper cutoff, such as the many European lights that conform to the StVZO standard. Barring significant misalignment, the majority of the light will be focused where it needs to be in a road or cyclepath situation, and you won't be blinding/annoying oncoming traffic (automotive or otherwise). Another benefit to the StVZO lights is that their asymmetric optics tend to focus the light downwards, not just block some of it, so you get more effective illumination for less power consumption. Symmetric lights are great in an offroad environment, especially if you're riding singletrack in darkness; on pavement, though, I see little need to illuminate much of anything over my head level.

byogman wrote:

What prevents you from using your 900 lumen light as a flashing unit on a regular basis?

Just laziness and frankly a dislike for strong flashing lights. For the rear blinker there’s the justification that people continuously need to be aware. In front it’s really only helpful in route crossing/joining scenarios. But I suppose those are probably frequent enough that I just ought to do it anyway.

I have a 900 lumen light and I use it in flashing mode near sunset and during twilight to draw attention to me, however, I switch to solid mode once I deem it to be "dark." The reason is that even though I have it mostly aimed down, it makes ALL of the reflective street signage for some distance in front of me look as if they are flashing on and off. It's eyecatching, but I also fear it might be distracting for drivers. In solid mode I almost never have it running the full 900 lumens, I only need that on unlighted trails. Usually the medium or low light modes are fine on city streets. I discovered this when I lived in Pittsburgh and would come into downtown via the jail trail. The light was making all the of the big green directional signs on the Parkway East near Grant Street appear to be flashing. I don't know if the angle of reflection allowed that effect to appear to cars on the parkway, but I figured they didn't need to be distracted looking for the source of the light.

UnrealMachine wrote: Good post. I agree that the colors can be significantly improved upon. Some of the better lighting systems offer this.

Cygolite is a good example, their lower "metro" series has cooler colors compared to their higher end and warmer "expilion" series.

@Unrealmachine - re; speed: I don't know, I don't pay attention to speed, I toodle (i.e., generally under 15 mph.). I rode to the comfortable speed/sight distance of the lights, not vice versa.

UnrealMachine wrote:

Mick wrote:@unrealmachine Until someone posts an actual accident *caused by a cyclist’s light that was too bright* then all of this “blinding” talk is all nonsense I’ve had to stop on trails until the light shining in my eyes was past. Many times.

You keep misusing the word “blinding”.

Tell me please, oh wise one, how to use the word "blinding."