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How do we get a mirror on the chute?

Now that the RR is sitting in the UPMC parking lot not allowing people to cross the tracks, and the road (second ave) from the Jail Trail to Panther hollow gets backed up/is difficult to pull out on, the stupid chute is the best option. However, even with slowing down, yelling out, ringing my bell over and over, people are coming around the blind turns from the opposite direction on foot and by bike wearing headphones. They can't hear. And even if they aren't wearing headphones, the noise from traffic makes it too loud to hear sometimes. Even if I got off and walked my bike, chances are some other tail user from the opposite direction is still going to be coming at me at speed around a blind turn. We need a convex mirror on both sides so we can have visual confirmation of people approaching from the opposite way. Who do we talk to about this? At this point, we are being forced into a more dangerous situation by th RR being douchebags.
stefb
2015-09-19 16:41:22
I 311'd this, maybe we can get something done. If not, pressure the RR maybe, if you eliminate a route, make the other ones safer?
jason-pgh
2015-09-19 16:49:12
@stefb: I admire that you continue to use the chute even though it's broken, as you point out. I only wish I had the discipline you have to do the right thing, as opposed to the convenient thing. Your patients are lucky people. I've given up and just use the street to get through that bit. The chute should be for just pedestrians. Why should bikers have to put up with the existing arrangement? Why can't we have a marked sharrowed path, in both directions that legitimates bike presence on the street? In reality this is what works anyway, given the traffic light patterns (except maybe at the height of rush a hour). But legitimation is key for having motorists accept the reality and accommodate. Also, an actual traffic light at the rump Swinburne intersection.
ahlir
2015-09-19 17:15:24
The chute is a long-standing disaster, an attractive hazard connecting two wonderful, frequently used bike routes. It's not wide enough for 2-way traffic, and it's got two blind 90-degree turns. In the midst of a year of so many improvements, I wonder if it's not addressed because "soon" there's going to be an Alomono transition built and they want to do it all at once? Just uninformed speculation. (you know, it's the web)
vannever
2015-09-19 17:35:29
I do use the road in the morning and other times of the day cause you can keep your speed up and flow with traffic. However, there is still the issue of gravel at that turn up to the UPMC parking lot/trail head. Ok rant time: The whole thing has me annoyed. Obviously the safer way to get to certain parts of schenley is to cross the tracks leading to Panther hollow lake (that are now patrolled by the RR) rather than take the road , as mentioned in other threads. Now that option is gone. The hazelwood trail was nice cause it got you pretty close from the HMB to to duck hollow, which connected to Frick. Now that is closed. And even if it was open, you can't cross into the duck hollow trail, which is marked as part of the trail system with markers IN the trail. I am completely dissatisfied with the taking away of bicycling options. Is the trail through the strip open again? Sure, we are getting more bike lanes, but they are still taking safe trails away from us. Sometimes the jail trail is open at 530am and sometimes not. So I take a chance, but this past week, I have had to take second ave, whereas last week it was open. Still no detour posted. And still no signs from the downtown end indicating that it is closed. I don't know what people who are traveling outbound are doing, but when I see that the trail is closed, I can easily bail out on the hot metal pedestrian bridge. Whatever. I can only hope that we can get something permanent and good. That may not happen while I am still living here to see it though.
stefb
2015-09-19 18:54:46
These "soon" items, Almono, BRT, they can't come soon enough. There are real problems, serious problems that need to be dealt with now. What I'd propose is to focus energy on those that effect pedestrians as much as us. The trail needs to be open or there needs to be a clearly posted alternate. At all times. Mirrors in the chute and sharrows on 2nd so more bikes continue in the road rather than going through the chute inbound... I never understood the attraction but some folks on bike do go inbound via the chute and it's a problem. And while the greenfield bridge is out can we please address a couple trivial items to make Bates/Panther Hollow less of a disaster? On Bates, can we please get handicapped curb cuts so it's possible to cross the parkway ramp smoothly without going counter-flow briefly? On Panther Hollow Drive, can we please get something to make crossing the northern side of the interchange next to the playground less harrowing? Like, say, something cool for people with strollers? Make a crosswalk from the southwest corner of panther hollow and hobart and another crossing of Beacon (this one with a pedestrian activated signal) at the top end of the field to get bikes back on the right side. Bonus for fixing the grading and paving the path through the field as then it's not a mess, not an ankle turning hazard, and it's a reasonable bike route continuation from the panther hollow sidewalk going east. It always frustrates me to see stupid things like this hang around without resolution waiting for some big fix. Who knows if/when that actually comes? Fixing these things should be an instantaneous reflex not a who knows if it'll ever happen thing.
byogman
2015-09-19 19:43:54
I never understood the attraction but some folks on bike do go inbound via the chute and it’s a problem. Good point. There is no need to use that chute inbound, since you are going downhill AND making a right turn. Talk about easy! I always am going outbound, so I do use that chute. I haven't met anyone inbound yet, but I suspect I will someday.
gg
2015-09-19 21:10:13
The new bike lane funnels people toward that chute. And if you do not feel comfortable riding in the lane on Saline with its very light traffic, then you are certainly not going to ride in the lane on the 200 yards of Second. Second is not easy. You absolutely have to take the lane AND you have to slow down considerably to make that turn. If there isn't a vehicle coming down from the parking lot, there is loose gravel making that turn dangerous at speed. Not a lot of riders have the gonads to slow a line of would-be-40 mph traffic to a near stop to make a turn. Myself, I've hit the opposite curb trying to recover from a near wipeout trying to turn there. I suspect I'm not alone.
stuinmccandless
2015-09-20 06:15:10
I've used my leaf blower to clean up gravel. So it's all good till the next rain.
mikhail
2015-09-20 23:35:02
Stu, that's a very good point. The same contours that make the turn in the chute ridiculous still make the by road turn quite unpleasant. Still, putting down a couple sharrows (and sweeping the gravel!) is a very cheap and very worthwhile intervention.
byogman
2015-09-21 07:20:03
It cannot be kept clean. Each rain washes new silt, gravel, etc., into the center of that turn. You have to slow to sub-10mph to make that turn, well below that if there's a car coming down the hill to the stop sign. Move those jersey barriers out 10 feet, forcing Second to be one lane each direction, and then we can talk.
stuinmccandless
2015-09-21 08:30:24
I think a mirror would be vandalized within a week in that location.
gg
2015-09-21 08:59:03
We saw two cyclists actually WALKING their bikes inbound yesterday.
rustyred
2015-09-21 09:01:14
That chute is an abomination and an embarrassment. Stu has it right, there is no need for 3 car lanes there.
salty
2015-09-21 19:44:19
This idea may sound preposterous, and may be superbly expensive -- a tunnel going from the parking lot, and exiting at Saline Street at street-level. This would be a good replacement for the chute. It is probably not practical, aside from cost, since there may be utility pipes below the lot, and since the earth the lot is on was probably put there in the 1800's when the railroad was built. However, hopefully this (crazy) idea can stir up some more ideas on how to better this connector in place of the chute :-).
abf
2015-09-21 20:17:00
BTW, another crazy (and potentially hilly terrainy) idea is to built a trail connection on the Frazier Street Bridge (the I376 bridge), by attaching a pedestrian bridge on the side of or under the bridge (there are two catwalks under the bridge (and on the I376 Commercial Street Bridge at Frick Park further east), although I doubt these could be safely/easily made into a regular connector.
abf
2015-09-21 20:26:37
About the I376 bridge idea: The connection on the east (schenley park) side would be to the Bridle Trail, and on the west side to the back of the DPW building on Swinburne. Personally, though, would prefer a nice bridge, tunnel, or level crossing over the RR near Panther Hollow Lake to a I376 bridge-connection to Bridle Trail; since the Junction Hollow trail, together the Hollow Run trail and Lower Panther Hollow trails in Schenley Park present a easy, smooth ride, suitable even for children, while connecting easily to multiple points along the way (four mile run, junction hollow (and on to oakland), panther hollow lake and trails, etc.).
abf
2015-09-21 20:44:06
Steel Valley trail just put up a mirror at the bottom of the little hill by Kennywood back in August. It has a plastic lens and I think it cost about $90. Here's some mirrors from grangers (they have a store on Liberty in the strip) http://www.grainger.com/category/convex-safety-and-security-mirrors/traffic-safety/safety/ecatalog/N-i61?ssf=3&bc=y Of course we had a fence to attach ours to, I'm not sure what's available to attach to at the chute. You could petition Friends of the River Front (donations probably help) or pester Corry O'Connor's office http://pittsburghpa.gov/district5/ or "what are you doing with that ladder at midnight?"
marko82
2015-09-22 08:35:30
The mirror would have to be mounted up high or it will be destroyed. Maybe across the street on a pole would work. It doesn't have to be all that close to be effective.
gg
2015-09-22 08:56:15
Across the street is a good idea, assuming that you really will be able to see well enough. I hadn't thought of that. It could be mounted up high there, on the traffic signal pole, and would probably be pretty safe against vandalism. There are stainless steel as well as plastic mirrors that are designed for just this purpose.
jonawebb
2015-09-22 09:01:48
I'm trying to follow this discussion but honestly am not terribly familiar with much east or southeast of Oakland, besides the route I used to take in my car from downtown to Shadyside (2nd Ave. to Bates). What's the "chute"?
doublestraps
2015-09-22 09:10:30
It's the area between Second Avenue and the wall where the Eliza Furnace Trail starts that is blocked off with Jersey barriers. It directs two-way walking and biking into a small, confined area, with two right angle turns. BTW we'd need another mirror at the other end. It could be attached under the railroad bridge.
jonawebb
2015-09-22 09:13:47
I emailed Corey O'Connor's office. corey.oconnor@pittsburghpa.gov. He can make it happen, I think, and is more likely to if other constituents do, too.
jonawebb
2015-09-22 09:26:08
@jonawebb, if that fails, I'm partial to @marko82's "what are you doing with that ladder at midnight?" approach
chrishent
2015-09-22 09:30:51
Oh, I did indeed use the chute a few times back when I lived in Shadyside and was just starting to bike with regularity. I figure that, given I was a cycling novice in the truest sense of the word (first time biking since I was a teenager, first time biking in an urban environment), I would be Peduto and company's target market. My experience was that I was SURE I was doing something wrong going through that section, and I tried to get through as fast as possible. I do believe I walked my bike at least once. That sort of anxiety and confusion-inducing moment is exactly the sort of thing that scares new cyclists from jumping on a bike. Why should I put myself in an uncomfortable situation when I don't have to? I could always just drive...
doublestraps
2015-09-22 09:49:43
311'ed this, will report back the response.
ka_jun
2015-09-23 11:07:35
I thought for sure there was one there YEARS ago, maybe when they first did the chute, but it didn't survive long.
edmonds59
2015-09-23 11:36:39
“what are you doing with that ladder at midnight?” Sir, I am merely trying to rescue lost kittens. I assure you it has nothing, NOTHING AT ALL, to do with your daughter's bedroom window. I'm so glad we could clear this up.
mick
2015-09-23 12:17:03
At the risk of being flamed, I feel I need to weigh in on this location. Having ridden through that area year round during my 5x per week commute for 13 years, I am quite familiar and comfortable with that section. Riding inbound, during rush hour, since I was going downhill and making a hard right on the road, I was at least going as fast as the cars, if not faster if they were backed up. No problem there, if you are comfortable riding in traffic. Making the hard right to get up to the parking lot, I never noticed gravel, but never expected to take that corner at speed as there were sometimes others coming down the hill towards me. Anywhere where I am turning and road conditions dictate slowing, it always seems like the impetus is on me to ride safe in that location. Riding home, rather than having to cross the road twice, I rode the chute. I never looked at the mirror when it was there, but did buy a good bell to use at both corners and to let people waiting for the bus know that I was coming through. I got tired of yelling "YO" coming into the corners. Sure, it would be nice if the chute was a foot or two wider so 2 bikes could pass more comfortably. Yeah, people sometimes throw stuff against the wall, usually fast food related, sometimes glass. Litterbugs are everywhere. I did stop sometimes to unblock the drain, especially if it was going to freeze overnight. When the road puddled up, cars sometimes splashed a lot of water onto me, but that could have happened anywhere. But all in all, I thought it was a good, although not perfect, but acceptably safe place to go through every day. There certainly are much worse areas to ride through. As we wish the car drivers would do, if an area dictates less speed and more attention, slow down a little, be safe for yourself and anyone you share the road with.
helen-s
2015-09-23 16:57:46
@helen s: I do not use this route 5x a week but it's still the least complicated way to travel between Oakland and the South Side or Downtown, so I'm on it quite often. I used to take the chute (and even thought that crossing the tracks was a good idea) but eventually just stayed on the road. It's much simpler. Why do we have to put up with inconvenience just because we're on bikes? We don't do this stuff because we're masochists. We certainly don't "deserve" a harder life. So let's be reasonable: 1) Dedicate the chute to the walkers and joggers. I somehow believe it originally was meant for them anyway. Why make them dodge bikers all the time? 2) Traffic light at Swinburne for benefit of outbound bike traffic [sensor activated to make everyone happier.] The parking lot people will surely appreciate it as well. 3) Sharrow 2nd between Greenfield and Swinburne, both directions. Northern lane. The turn and the lights will calm car speeds and make it work. 4) Repave Swinburne, already. Bikers deserve these amenities, and not just because we "pay taxes". It's the civil thing to do.
ahlir
2015-09-23 19:56:14
Here's what I got back from 311: "City does not install mirrors as a traffic control device because they show distorted images to drivers. Vehicles appear to be much farther away than they actually are; mirrors require routine cleaning & subject to vandalism and unfamiliar drivers require time to become oriented when attempting to use a mirror. Any individual not familiar with the images displayed may misjudge the speed and distance of oncoming traffic." So apparently, the priority is for drivers. Anyone else we can ask about this?
ka_jun
2015-09-23 21:15:23
I thought there once was one there, if that is the case, who installed it (DPW/UPMC/Lot owners)? Is that Kraus' district?
ka_jun
2015-09-24 09:01:13
Someone should get a few pieces of mirror finish stainless steel and just epoxy them on to the inside face of the barrier itself at strategic points. Would be adequate to show something coming the other direction, and would probably survive as well as convex mirrors.
edmonds59
2015-09-24 09:34:54
If anyone complains, tell them it's art.
edmonds59
2015-09-24 10:19:55
I am writing to add my hearty support to the notion that there need to be mirrors in the "chute" along second avenue between greenfield avenue and the driveway to the EFT parking lot. I have read a prior response and would like to address it head on. “City does not install mirrors as a traffic control device because they show distorted images to drivers." Vehicles appear to be much farther away than they actually are; mirrors require routine cleaning & subject to vandalism and unfamiliar drivers require time to become oriented when attempting to use a mirror. Any individual not familiar with the images displayed may misjudge the speed and distance of oncoming traffic.” If by traffic you mean roadway traffic, there is no conflict since the orientation of these mirrors would be substantially lower and further to the inside of the turn toward pedestrians and cyclists in an area physically divided from the roadway. Thus oriented, it would not provide any attractive illusion of visibility that might be misused by motorists. And while the images presented are distorted, distorted images are vastly better than the alternative view, which is, at present, so obstructed as to be non-existent. Cleaning is a concern, but not a significant one given that again, what we're comparing with is no view at all. Vandalism concerns can be significantly ameliorated by mounting these mirrors high enough and using the ones made of steel. The expense of these is vanishingly small compared to the bike and foot traffic they improve safety for. Functionally, this is just an extension of the eliza furnace trail, a part of the trail system, and similar mirrors are present and quite helpful where the GAP goes by the metal recycling plant. If the concern can be addressed there, why not here, where there's more traffic through a narrower restriction?
byogman
2015-09-24 11:46:19
@edmonds59 I wonder of Center for Creative Reuse might have a "few pieces of mirror finish stainless steel" that are thin and flexible that would fit the bill. You know, just throwing it around as an academic exercise. Just a couple of strips that would illustrate to oncoming users if there is any movement in the chute would probably be sufficient. @byogman if you feel like it, submit a 311 request and see if they tell you the same thing they told me.
ka_jun
2015-09-24 11:53:25
@byogman, I suspect the mirror that was put up near the scrap yard in SS was not put up by the city, but rather installed as part of the wall/fence contract. So the city's 311 response is not inconsistent, it's just that the request is misdirected. FWIW I think the low cost walmat mirror would be worth a try and I'd be willing to help others install it. When we put the mirror up near Kennywood it helped to have at least three people to aim the mirror correctly - one from each direction and one holding the mirror. I'll try to remember to look at the area more closely tonight for attachment options and will try to take some pictures as well.
marko82
2015-09-24 12:28:10
Will share any results from what I sent to 311. Wasn't it the city that installed the jersey barriers? If not, who did? The city wasn't saying it wasn't their jurisdiction which would've been the easy answer for them if they just wanted this question to go away. For sure, the roadway oriented excuses just miss the mark entirely and the rest is whining about something that's really nothing, that's my point. If we need to show to tell, I'd be delighted to help with any effort to even slightly ameliorate this longstanding cluster&*.
byogman
2015-09-24 13:13:06
Even just pretty randomly oriented mirrors will help there, I think. You should be able to tell if someone is approaching from the other side. It doesn't have to be perfect. And several mirrors stuck in place should be pretty resistant to vandalism.
jonawebb
2015-09-24 13:27:53
Could we rent a forklift and just move the barriers out a smidge?
dmtroyer
2015-09-24 13:32:18
Maybe just a little bit each day...
jonawebb
2015-09-24 14:16:57
That spot definitely needs three lanes. Go there at 5pm any weekday and it's always backed up. Would be worse with only two lanes. I used to live in Greenfield and used that route all the time. Maybe it's gotten worse since then. As far as making it wider, it's still a sharp turn. I occasionally have people almost run into me on the HMB because they take such wide turns. So even if it's wider, people are still going downhill and will still probably cut into your path of travel. There's a mirror by the scrap yard on the Waterfront trail. Maybe just reach out to them and see where they got it from.
sgtjonson
2015-09-24 19:39:11
I spent some time checking out the chute yesterday. Here are some observations: -the narrowest part of the chute is 4'2", which is right at the bend of second ave under the trestle (first pic) -the short 4' wall at this location is permanent pored concrete and can't be moved. The permanent wall continues down second ave for 37 more feet(2nd pic where my tape measure is on wall), then it becomes movable jersey barriers -the width of the bike lane (other than @ corner) from curb to permanent wall is 5'2" -it seems the only option for attaching a mirror is either to attach it high to concrete wall, or low to concrete wall. -I also talked with Ronald who walks this every day heading to his job downtown. He said that very few cyclist (or runners) ring bells or shout out their approach at the corner & he has had many close encounters here http://i.imgur.com/QVVSUFu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/3avc2qe.jpg http://i.imgur.com/0So2vW3.jpg http://i.imgur.com/a8otSWP.jpg
marko82
2015-09-25 08:31:53
I still think we could put up a mirror at the corner, it will just take a little more effort. I have a hammer drill, ladder, and small generator that would allow us to drill into the concrete. We would just need to buy some angle iron and hardware in addition to the mirror. Of course there are two more corners in that stretch that could also benefit from having mirrors. But I'd suggest we try this corner first (since it's the narrowest) and see how it lasts. Then we can put up the others if everything goes well.
marko82
2015-09-25 08:44:41
I trust your judgment on viewing angles etc. but I think that the more elaborate we make the installation, the more likely it is to get ruined by vandalism. Wouldn't it work to just epoxy up multiple convex stainless steel mirrors at that corner?
jonawebb
2015-09-25 09:29:51
Ronald? Is that the guy who gave me high - 5 riding through the chute?
ka_jun
2015-09-25 09:38:54
I think epoxying a small (6 inch) mirror to the low wall might work and it would be easy enough to do. But I think if you want to put up a larger mirror, attaching it higher up on the tall wall would probably make it more difficult to vandalize. I'm open & willing to try anything.
marko82
2015-09-25 09:45:31
I just measured the (mustache) handlebars on my commuter bike at 2'2". Darn! That's more than 1/2 the width of that chute corner. It won't work. My other bike has 2"1'. So it fits! I should definitely be on it when I plan to do that stretch. As long as no one else screws it up.
ahlir
2015-09-25 19:24:28
But seriously. Let me ventilate for a bit. It's been a long week. Making the chute work is not our job. This is why we have a municipal government. And elected representatives. And of course why we "pay taxes". We are a legitimate part of the community. Trust me we are. Deal with it, already. We are entitled to reasonable amenities. Particularly when people's safety is at stake. Why is it ok to expose bikers, joggers, walkers and our children to the chute? It's not. The chute may have served a purpose a long time ago, when traffic was light, but it no longer does. It has to be fixed. We're spending tens of millions of our "tax dollars" to fix the (unbikable) Baum/Craig/Bigelow. Why not a fraction of that for the much more critical upgrades to the 2nd Ave bike connection? The chute is in District 5, "D.5": Corey O'Connor (412-255-8965). D.5 even has a website! Fortuitously I happen to live in his district. On Monday morning I will call my councilor's number and bring the chute problem to his (or his voicemail's) attention. I'll let you know what happened. But if you also live in this (oddly salamanderish) district why don't you also check in? But you don't even have to live in D.5; just be a city resident who needs to travel through the chute. [this bboard software...]
ahlir
2015-09-25 20:23:41
What I do is just post it and then edit accordingly
sgtjonson
2015-09-26 07:44:53
Yeah the chute is terrifying. I ride it infrequently but there is usually so much traffic I can't bring myself to use the road. Is the dead mirror not still there? There was a mirror when they built that and it was completely broken by vandals within a few months.
erink
2015-10-03 10:49:24
I like everything said above, including the advice to gush-a-post and then edit subsequently, but I'd like to ask a slightly different question: While a mirror is wonderful and lets you see around the corner to identify an inbound cyclist (unwisely) using the chute, how does that inbound cyclist know what we want them to do? Which takes me to: Do you think it would have a noticeable affect if we put a sign on the Jersey barrier under the bridge? The mirror will tell us when an inbound cyclist is using the chute. BUT telling cyclists about the flow will give them the info to do the right thing, and probably X% will take the guidance. what do yinz think?
vannever
2015-10-03 20:13:31
Need another one for outbound if you are going to do that.
stuinmccandless
2015-10-03 20:36:51
@v. I know most of us usually take the lane inbound rather than deal with the chute, but I would hate to make that the preferred route for all cyclists. Do we really want to tell an adult riding with little ones that we think it's safer for them to take the lane rather than stay behind a nice concrete wall? I'm all for encouraging people to use roads, but I don't think this small stretch is where I'd start doing that. You know putting up small stop signs (for bikes) like they did in Homestead might not be a bad idea. Surely no one will stop at them, but hopefully it will draw their attention the fact that conflict with other traffic should be expected.
marko82
2015-10-04 08:43:29
I’m all for encouraging people to use roads, but I don’t think this small stretch is where I’d start doing that. The point is not to make all cyclists use the road, the point is to legitimate the road (at that spot) for those cyclists who do use it. And to make it safer for everyone by reducing traffic in the chute.
ahlir
2015-10-04 10:25:06
Marko you are wise as always. Thanks!
vannever
2015-10-04 10:44:25
You know putting up small stop signs (for bikes) like they did in Homestead might not be a bad idea. Is the "Walk Bikes" sign on Saline near the entrance to the chute still there? That seems like the same idea; nobody does it, but it warns there could be conflicts. It might be tough to position a stop sign so chute users see it, but it isn't sticking out in their way, and people in the lane right next to the chute don't think it applies to them too. Maybe paint on the ground would work better?
steven
2015-10-05 02:04:06
Is there any reason that 2nd needs to be 2 lanes outbound there? It is coming up to a light and of course splits in various directions under the RR bridge, but I rarely see a ton of traffic going in that direction. Why not just make the chute actually wide enough to work as a bike lane on 2nd? This does not totally solve what to do under the bridge / on the sidewalk, but it would make the whole thing much more functional. At the same time, one could imagine re-painting my "favorite" Irvine to make it 1 lane each way and creating bike lanes there too -- it is likely to be at least a year before some form of lane returns on the ALMONO site.
neilmd
2015-10-05 04:54:01
I have always figured the purpose of the "walk bikes" sign is just to put the blame solely on me if I get into a dispute there. If I rode it more frequently I probably would take the lane. As it is, I slow down to a crawl (and my brakes always squeal like crazy) and balance bike my way through there making as much noise as possible at the corners. The one time I did see a conflicting cyclist, he yelled real good as he came down the outbound path, so that was good. But I haven't been there much on weekends.
erink
2015-10-05 07:38:21
Maybe this has been mentioned before at some point, but it would be interesting to what the motor vehicle lanes are painted at. I believe the nacto min. is 10'. If they are marked wider, a push should be made to have the road reconfigured to the minimum lanes and the chute moved out correspondingly. Google makes it look a bit excessive. https://goo.gl/maps/7fo3gJ1B3Po
edmonds59
2015-10-05 08:51:00
We could also probably get some additional width (1'?) by replacing the jersey barriers with candlesticks (although with an obvious trade-off in terms of less armor 'twixt trail users and motor vehicles)
reddan
2015-10-05 08:58:50
^If you look at my third picture above, the low wall right at the bend is NOT a jersey barrier that can be moved easily. It is a permanently poured concrete wall that extends down the trail another 37 feet past the curve. To gain any width at the bend they would need to demo that wall with a jackhammer/backhoe etc. and then you would only gain a foot or so of space. IMHO, it's not a very good return on investment (of bicycle advocacy). I think fighting for a more direct connection (across/over/under the RR tracks for instance) would be something more worthwhile to fight for, even if it seems less plausible.
marko82
2015-10-05 09:28:13
http://rockalley.org/routes/bike-routes/panther-hollow/ describes a good replacement for the whole mess. The route they suggest is drawn in red: You would head off to the right (west) from the end of Junction Hollow trail at the edge of Schenley Park, instead of going to the left under the railroad bridge. You stay on the west side of the railroad the whole way to the Eliza Furnace trail parking lot, and never have to deal with any railroad crossings. The biggest problem with this is that you have to fit the trail under the Parkway East bridge, and the space between the trail and the railroad is tight at times.
jonawebb
2015-10-05 09:41:45
See my map at http://goo.gl/lT0LWO and click on "Junction Hollow Trail - rerouted" to see a picture of the route that jonawebb mentioned.
paulheckbert
2015-10-05 10:37:23
^I've been meaning to measure how close the tracks are to the parkway bridge supports but keep forgetting to do it. I know it gets pretty tight at the piers. But knowing that it get's tight shouldn't deter us completely - here's a pic of how close the tracks are to the trail in McKeesport by the police station. http://i.imgur.com/ZRgAj5Q.jpg
marko82
2015-10-05 10:56:54
Go big or go home. I want some serious infrastructure there, and to spend some real money. Whatever we put there has to scale, not just handle the weekend joyriders we have now, but five times that number, when we have people coming down from Squirrel Hill and over the river from Rankin. We need to make the case for The Spindle. Suspend a big ring over the whole intersection and run bike path ramps up to it from all sides. Make the pinnacle 150 feet high so it attracts a lot of attention. This will likely cost ten million. I'm not kidding. This is THE knot in the whole area, the one corner where stuff already doesn't fit, doesn't work, where cyclists are already "breaking the rules" so as not to get killed, and which makes entire parts of town essentially off-limits to all but the brave or foolish. Whatever you put there, ask yourselves, how high would it rank on the Popsicle Index? Whatever we put there, we will be looking at for years, probably decades. How long has the chute been there? Would you bring in friends from out of town to look at the chute, other than to point fingers of derision at it? How about instead we have a Coming Out Of The Fort Pitt Tunnel At Night For The First Time scale of infrastructure to solve this big problem? I have some rough sketches, but it would be nice to put together a better presentation to sell to the big boys. Spend the money. Do it right. Think big.
stuinmccandless
2015-10-05 13:04:04
I really think the Eliza Furnace trail's centrality to bike commuting from the east is an accident. It's just some space that wasn't used for anything else, so it got dedicated as a bike/pedestrian pathway. Connecting from Squirrel Hill and Greenfield requires climbing a steep hill, and the connection from Oakland and points north makes no sense at all. The primary connection to the downtown from the east should be through Oakland, so it can pass CMU and Pitt. Say, dedicate a lane of Forbes through Oakland to bikes, then connect to a BRT lane the rest of the way.
jonawebb
2015-10-05 13:18:43
Off topic, but as part of the BRT, a segregated bike lane is under consideration for either Fifth or Forbes.
jason-pgh
2015-10-05 13:26:24
Make it easy to get to the Jail Trail from Hazelwood, and you will see some bike traffic from there. Right now, Hazelwood is one of those places like McKees Rocks that are completely inaccessible to human beings except by a vehicle powered by an internal combustion engine. Braddock isn't that much farther upstream that you won't see some traffic coming in from there. Same thing as would-be cyclists coming in from Sharpsburg and Aspinwall, if only they could get down the ballast from the 62nd Street Bridge.
stuinmccandless
2015-10-05 17:21:10
"Spend the money. Do it right. Think big" Amen.
stefb
2015-10-05 17:53:45
If spending that kind of money i'd prefer it go to solving missing links, not just inconvenient links.
dfiler
2015-10-07 14:50:42
This is a missing link. You cannot put 500 bikes an hour through there, either direction, any time of day. As a simple rule of thumb, you need to put as many bikes an hour through there as you have cars going through there, per hour, either direction, any time of day, without chaos. The Spindle would do it. The chute would not. Taking the lane would not.
stuinmccandless
2015-10-07 17:29:08
I seem to recall, back in the earlier days of this board, someone claiming that they were on a funded project surveying bike trail options in that area. One posting suggested reconnecting Swinburne (probably impractical, given the Parkway) to provide a route to Oakland. But anyway, if that person is still around or if someone else was involved, was there some published evaluation of the (lower) Swinburne -- Boundary Rd connection? The terrain is sketchy and I can see a bike route being expensive (but of course way cheaper than any road or highway work). A cantelever? I may, of course, be making this up. Memory is like that (for some of us). While we're at it, that survey was also supposed to evaluate the reconnection of Sylvan Ave (on the other side) to provide a route to Hazelwood. Doing that could moot part of the whole Almon[d]o bike issue. Another thought: what if the Junction Hollow trail had a spur up to Swinburne so that bikes could use the bridge and get to the Sylvan Path with less effort?
ahlir
2015-10-07 19:15:19
I appreciate the DIY ethos prevalent on this Board, but I gotta agree with Ahlir. Contact your elected public officials, and in a logical, reasonable manner, make your case. Public officials are desperate for public input (notice I am talking about elected public officials, not the enduring bureaucracy…). Put you issues in front of the officials. Make your case, and hold them accountable. That's their job.
atleastmykidsloveme
2015-10-08 08:17:36
I've thought about defying the conventional wisdom and just sticking a mirror up there. But any decent mirror is at least $20, probably more. And it will likely be vandalized in a matter of weeks. So then it would need replaced. I think the city would have the same problem. Anything they would put there would get smashed or painted over. So what would be the point?
jonawebb
2015-10-08 08:51:43
Maybe ... ...putting some sharrows on the inbound lane of 2nd ave would reduce inbound traffic in the chute? Also making 2nd Avenue two lanes instead of three would make the backup longer in distance - but likely would not change the wait time, unless outbound traffic backed up all the way to the HMB. Is there that much traffic at rush hour? Anyone know?
mick
2015-10-08 17:36:32
I've had occasion to continue in on 2nd, at the end of the day. Traffic does pile up a bit at the HMB. My impression of the the outbound traffic is that it doesn't seem to back up much beyond Swinburne. So this sounds a bit counter-intuitive but I'd have to say that 2nd might be able to go on a diet. But I've never explicitly paid attention to it. So please correct me. Why is there money to refurb Craig/Baum while people like us have to wrack our brains trying to rethink this intersection? Aren't there professionals who do this?
ahlir
2015-10-08 18:31:39
someone in city hall said to me yesterday that the Swinburne bridge was also on the list for replacement next year. anybody know about that? aside from totally isolating greenfield it might be the chance to put some order into the chaos.
neilmd
2015-10-08 20:10:03
If that bridge is up for replacement then this is the time to demand a bike-able ramp from the EFT parking lot (and ramp back down the other way along the hillside into junction hollow) and stop dealing with the chute. Am I also remembering that Almono said they're going to connect between the east end of the parking lot, toward their bike/ped infrastructure? The more connects the better.
byogman
2015-10-09 07:47:37
It's way past that time. Back when it was time, we did raise the issue. But it went nowhere.
jonawebb
2015-10-09 08:23:53
@neilmd I would be surprised if Swinburne bridge would be replaced in the near future, especially with the Greenfield Bridge coming down. They just repaved Swinburne, likely in anticipation of the clusterfuck that is going to occur when they demo Greenfield Bridge.
ka_jun
2015-10-09 08:57:07
I think the upshot of this whole thread is that we cyclists are sick of the status quo chute, it doesn't handle the traffic now let alone any more, so City Hall needs to hear us loudly, often, soon, and from several individuals and groups. More pointedly, we ned more than one solution. "Well, Almono said they would address that" is not an acceptable answer. At least it is not a complete answer. And I don't think it's an answer at all, since it's outside their immediate bailiwick.
stuinmccandless
2015-10-09 10:45:07
ALMONO project may actually route a lot of traffic off of irwin street after their grand boulevard is complete. If that is the case, there may be a case for closing one lane adjacent to the sidewalk since there may be less need for the extra throughput. This would likely be several years down the pipe though, and also after the greenfield bridge is rebuilt. Also, other opportunities could arise if the city gets funding for a transit connection via panther hollow as well. http://www.post-gazette.com/news/transportation/2015/08/29/Pittsburgh-seeking-money-to-build-transit-link-between-Oakland-Almono-site/stories/201508290058
benzo
2015-10-09 11:07:45
someone in city hall said to me yesterday that the Swinburne bridge was also on the list for replacement next year. anybody know about that?
it's in the 2016 capital budget proposal, as is replacement of the Anderson Bridge which carries Blvd of the Allies over the Hollow, but as a future-year proposal to start planning for work to begin in a further-future year. (That is, as far as i can tell, the 2016 budget proposes to in 2017 start work to replace the Swinburne/Frazier Bridge in 2018, or maybe later. See also the budget-proposal thread, where I may have been a bit more coherent....)
epanastrophe
2015-10-09 16:43:16
I see byogman was talking about the Swinburne bridge, not the Greenfield bridge. Sorry.
jonawebb
2015-10-09 16:52:03
Does anyone have actual numbers of the amount of bike and pedestrian traffic in the chute during peak times? My personal experience is it is not a crowded venue. I may try to get over there next week and do some counts. I can do them similar to the traffic counts done by the city a few weeks ago. Any suggestions on how to count traffic also? I thought I would count numbers inside and outside the chute, whether people walk their bikes or not, and maybe note if car traffic is backed up even with the chute and for how long. Anything else? I really feel for this to be a legitimate concerned discussion, we need real numbers rather than just saying it is too crowded or unsafe.
helen-s
2015-10-09 20:42:12
As I stated earlier, I did get a chance to count bikes through this area today- 7-9:00 am and 4-6:00 pm using similar format to the city counting process from a few weeks ago. Yes, that was me sitting on top of the wall on the south side of 2nd avenue today. I think I got a weeks or more worth of fumes and particulates even though I was elevated and it was breezy. I will compile data in the next day or two, but may not get a chance to do so until early next week. Stay tuned..............
helen-s
2015-10-14 19:34:12
I found a mirrored hubcap on the way to the West End and stuck it up. Well see if it lasts. The tape is to hold in place until the glue sets.
jonawebb
2015-10-17 12:25:27
Lolz I wonder who did that.
stefb
2015-10-19 19:05:51
I didn't even see that today. It might still be there though.
gg
2015-10-20 00:21:25
It was there yesterday afternoon. By the way (and for reference), I was just notified that my request (earlier in this thread, for reference 25015) had been forwarded to the traffic engineering department. Which probably means nothing in terms of it getting done and just means they're so backlogged it take THAT long to get 10s of attention to delegate, but who knows, and FYI in case we'd all like to pile on the same things directly for tracking purposes.
byogman
2015-10-21 12:59:51
Haven't been through the chute since the DIY mirror install. Does it work?
ka_jun
2015-10-21 13:56:37
i don't think so, no. IMO it's way too small--i think i only saw it because i was looking for it, and trying to focus on it was actually more difficult than to just slow down and look around the corner.
epanastrophe
2015-10-21 14:00:26
I did count traffic in or next to the Chute on October 15- it was in the low 50's, overcast, windy, and spit a little rain in the afternoon. Count times were 7-9am and 4-6pm. Am- total inbound (towards town) was 51 bikes, with 21 using the chute and 30 using the road. Also during this time there were 14 bikes going outbound- with 11 using the chute and 3 in the road. PM - total outbound was 72 bikes, with 70 in the chute and only 2 using the road. Inbound there were 22 bikes total- 15 in chute, with only 7 in the road. You can draw whatever conclusions you like from this - my observation was that totals coming inbound, it was pretty much a toss up with 36 in the chute, and 33 in the road. Outbound however, 81 were in the chute opposed to 5 in the road. Clearly the chute gets most of the traffic total. Interestingly, although I saw a few (5 or 6?) people virtually stop before entering the chute at either end, I only was aware of 5 people that gave any sort of signal (bell, whistle, shout) while approaching the ends of the chute. The few times I have encountered another bike in the chute or on the sidewalk past the chute outbound, it was always possible for us both to ride past each other with exercising caution, meaning slowing down and riding straight. If you cannot do either of these, stopping until the opposing bike passes will only take a few seconds. Sure it would be great to make the chute 3 feet wider, have mirrors at both ends, and for everyone to make some sound before slowly taking a 90 degree blind turn. But until then at least my expectation is the same as I have of a car trying to pass me with adequate clearance- slow down and only go when you have enough space to do so safely. I can send anyone the full document broken down by 30 minute segments, including identification by age, sex, and helmet use if you PM me. The info has been sent to the City bike/ped coordinator. There were a few pedestrians, but only 11 in the am, and 29 in the pm, mostly from cross country teams. All but one were in the chute- one person did pass inbound in the am on the sidewalk on the south side of the street.
helen-s
2015-10-29 12:40:43
Thanks helen s. That is quite a bit of traffic. I haven't had a problem in the chute yet. I ride it outbound only. Enjoy.
gg
2015-10-29 23:26:31
I noticed the little mirrored thing yesterday. Too small to be of value if you're going with any speed. Me, I'm a chute man, both directions. I tried the road but didn't feel safe. Speeding vehicles around two pinch points. Then trying to go fast with them, signal that I'm turning, turn, and drop into a lower gear just wasn't fun. I tried it on a HealthyRide and so far, that's the only hill I've had to walk up because I got stuck in 6 or 5 trying to go from sprint to climb. I always slow at the turns along the chute route to a crawl, and ring a bell many times. I have had a dozen close encounters, and almost always the people going the other way are not doing anything to announce their presence. I did like the one guy who bellowed "Wow! Corner!" several times.
jamin
2015-10-30 13:56:42
One little thing that could make a big difference: Going from the Greenfield Ave chute section to the 2nd Ave section, the chute goes from being sidewalk to being half-sidewalk, half-road. This narrows the effective width of the bikeable chute even more that it is already. Therefore, perhaps the lower, street-part can be filled in with concrete, making the chute be all at sidewalk-level. This still does not make the chute into an acceptable trail, but it is better than the status quo, and relatively easy to do, until the better alternatives can be performed.
abf
2015-12-20 15:41:55