BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

It wasn't me even though I ride and live near there. The intersection at Maple is terrible and I avoid it now. What I started doing is riding through once the crosswalk signals turned on so I could get out of the intersection, up the hill and out of the way by the time the cars were allowed to start moving again.

divide and conquer

I ride that route three days a week; that whole bit from Pennwood at Race up through Race at Swissvale around the corner to Swissvale at Maple is nerve-wracking to me. When I can swing it timewise, I go out through Wilkinsburg, down Swissvale, then cut left up through the Presbyterian church access road and then between the church and Edgewood Primary out onto Maple. It's a little goofy but feels a lot easier to me.

If this guy's riding that route every day, and doing that nonsense every day, it's impressive that he hasn't been in an accident. Drivers through that area are pretty surly in the evenings.

@mntbiker25.

There is a lot about your post that makes me uncomfortable.

First, a guy in a car trying to give riding advice to a biker? I dont' like it.

That 's in general, but there are things you say in almost every sentence that squick me pretty hard.

The corner at Pennwood and Race? If you are making a left at the red light there, you need to watch for oncoming traffic in two directions. If it isn't safe to go through without signaling? Then it isn't safe.

If it's safe to go through, It would be unsafe to hang out at the intersection and wait for it to be legal, but potentially deadly.

The corner at Swissvale and Maple? When it is safe to make a left, it would be a dangerous jackass thing to loiter in the middle that deathtrap intersection just because the lights for the cagers are one color or another.

Safety trumps legality.

How is saying "I ride this every day," spewing? I don't get that at all.

People make decisions that make them say "I wish I could ride every day." What are you? In jail? Physically disabled? No luck involved that I see.

"I didn't want to get into an argument with you or yell but your sucky attitude prevented that."

I don't understand. Did you get into an argument with him? Why? It's hard to imagine any biker NOT having a sucky attitude to a car driver telling him how to ride. I get a sucky attitude just hearing about it.

If you got into an argument with him, I don't see why you would put the blame on his attitude.

I ride for transportation. Most every day. Sports riders such as yourself often are fitter than me. They load their bikes on to their cars and drive to their centuries. If some sports rider spoke with derision about my hill-climbing in a public forum, he would find that he has an enemy for life.

I don't see you as describing anything that biker did as inappropriate. Illegal perhaps, but not inappropriate.

"It's hard to imagine any biker NOT having a sucky attitude to a car driver telling him how to ride. I get a sucky attitude just hearing about it."

Why? Are drivers supposed to be automatically ignored and disregarded when pointing out poor biking behavior?

"I ride for transportation. Most every day. Sports riders such as yourself often are fitter than me. They load their bikes on to their cars and drive to their centuries. If some sports rider spoke with derision about my hill-climbing in a public forum, he would find that he has an enemy for life."

You are making a huge assumption about the original poster and I, personally, object to the whole "how dare a driver speak up when he sees poor biking behavior" thing. It strikes me as very arrogant, close minded, and counter productive.

It strikes me as very arrogant, close minded, and counter productive.

I felt that way about the original poster.

I think he described behavior that was OK, but used judgmental terms "spewed" "jackass" "sucky attitute" "sucking wind"

There is a sentence that implies that Mntbiker25 yelled at the rider. I might be misinterpreting that sentence, but that is what he seemed to describe.

At the same time, there was no behavior Mntbiker25 described in the biker that struck me as inappropriate. The biker didn't signal in a situation where Mntbiker would have. Unless there was more to it, that's no big deal, in my opinion.

The rider responded to Mntbiker's criticism by saying "I ride this every day" and by making a signal at the next turn?

OK. That's a problem?

The rider went through red lights at several intersections. I know it is hair-raisingly dangerous to sit in the left turn lanes at either of those lights. If traffic is clear? I'd make the left. I'd get out of the middle of the road.

Just where is the problem with this "jackass" rider? Where is the "poor biking behavior" you mentioned?

I dont' see it.

I see the charged terms mntbiker25 used as reflecting himself, not the rider he describes. The rider seems OK to me.

I looked at a couple of the mntbiker25's posts before calling him a sports rider. My "huge" assumption was that those posts, and his posting handle, reflect his riding patterns. I might be wrong.

Plenty of folks here ride centuries and drive to the start of them. I wasn't trying to insult those riders. I was pointing out that I would be offended if one of these guys (who, if they do centuries, are ++fitter than me) spoke badly of my transportation hill-climbing aptitude in a public forum.

I'm not sure that telling someone to "use better XXX etiquette" is likely to garner any other type of response regardless of context. Frankly, I'm surprised there wasn't more profanity.

When you see another car speeding, running stop signs, or any of the other illegal things drivers do on a continuous basis, do you tell them to "use better driving etiquette" then post on the AAA board about how drivers can't get any respect when they behave like jackasses?

The line between constructive criticism geared towards improving overall social interactions and judgemental reprimands is thin enough to be virtually impossible to exchange in any traffic situation between two strangers. I'd garner it's thin enought to be misconstrued in online forums as well - acutal intent aside. Heck, even over beers between friends it can be tricky.

While I realize that hanging out at red lights can be dangerous, I can't run them, even on a bike. I hope to god the people who do run them suffer no ill effects, but car drivers, mostly, can't tell the difference between someone who is cycling in an illegal manner as the safest option and someone who is cycling in an illegal manner simply because they can and it is faster. The two are not always different either.

These are nuances that many cyclists can't distinguish or agree on in each other's behavior, and cyclists in cars are not typically prone to road rage in traffic against cyclists on bicycles. I think a point to make is that there are a lot of drivers out there who wouldn't understand that behavior, probably the bulk of which would either be enraged or panicky (and later indignant and angry) over such behavior, regardless of perceived of safety.

If that really is the safest way to cycle the route in question (I admit I've heard of most of those roads but couldn't picture the intersections to save my life), then there's something wrong with the intersections that needs to be corrected. If that's NOT the safest way to ride that route, then perhaps something needs to be clarified to cyclists that go through there everyday, either through road signs or words from people who know them that will be taken better.

Well said, on all points.

Thanks to everyone for the interesting discussion. I think the Pittsburgh cycling community has come a long way, but I also think it has a long way to go. I don't think cyclists will get much respect from the driving community until the cycling community starts policing it's own ranks and stops bending traffic laws to suit it's needs. There are numerous other posts on this forum stating this fact. I regularly donate money to Bike Pittsburgh and I don't think that I can continue to support this forum or this cause anymore. Good luck to everyone out on the road. Signing off.

The intersections in question are awful and there are not many alternatives. Pennwood and Race is parallel to the elevated train tracks and busway, there is this intersection and one about a quarter mile back (also an ugly intersection) that go underneath it.

Maple and Swissvale has a turning lane with poor sight lines which you are expected to wait in while cars from behind you rush around a 90 degree bend.

It's the worst part of any bike ride I take. I have been yelled at and buzzed maliciously and even threatened to be beaten over the head with a shovel in this area. There is no grid. There are no alternatives. Also keep in mind that Maple is a 15mph road with a school zone, and people still speed and act like assholes daily.

If this riders experiences are anything like mine, I honestly don't blame this rider for not being polite back to you. He probably thought you were another asshole who was out to get him.

I don't think cyclists will get much respect from the driving community until the cycling community starts policing it's own ranks and stops bending traffic laws to suit it's needs. There are numerous other posts on this forum stating this fact.

There are a good number of people that may agree with that point, mntbiker25. I think the problem is the way one goes about this policing. Yelling at someone from your car? When has that ever worked? 90% of the time I can't even make out what people are yelling at me from their vehicle. I imagine it is something like, "hey, nice bike, keep pedaling!" but in reality it is probably something more along the lines of, "hey get the fuck off my road!" The guy you yelled at? I don't know, I probably would have not responded so kindly. Rarely does a constructive conversation ensue when a driver of a car yells at anyone. I wouldn't really expect to change anyone's behavior by yelling at them, they aren't my kids. Please stop yelling at cyclists from your car.

Your other method of policing seems to be complaining on a community message board, on the Internet. While this particular forum is better than any other I've ever visited, it is still the Internet, and feelings might get hurt. I am not sure taking your ball and going home is an appropriate or constructive response. There are many threads that started the same as this one, and they all end the same way. The guy who pissed you off probably doesn't even read the message board.

So what to do? I and a number of other people try and lead by example. We stop at lights and signs when we go out riding. We also organize fun group bike rides that adhere to traffic laws. People go on these rides, and they have fun. I guess my hope is that this behavior slowly rubs off, and these people continue to stop at lights and such when they go out riding by themselves. If you are really interested in changing the behavior of Pittsburgh cyclists, this might be a more constructive and less frustrating approach. If you have other suggestions, I'd be happy to discuss them with you.

I have stories to tell about this area.

Going downhill, it's a 15mph speed limit. I take the lane. I am always overtaken by vehicles traveling a least twice the legal limit who I then wait behind at Maple and Swissvale. This road is also partially a school zone.

I was traveling uphill on Maple to the left of some parked cars, somewhat in the door zone to not be rude, but not enough out of the way to allow cars from behind to pass me. Probably traveling at 8-12mph. Again the speed limit is 15mph. I clear the parked cars and pull to the side of the road to allow cars to pass. A dude in a truck pulls along side me and asks me, "don't you know that bikes are supposed to ride on the sidewalk?", among with some other ignorant thoughts.

I was buzzed by not one, but two drivers speeding on Franklin in a row when I pulled up behind the two of them at the very next light at Pennwood. The truck driver started telling me how I should act on the road and how I don't belong there, blah, blah. I talk back and before long he's getting out of his truck and threatening to beat me over the head with his shovel.

Oh, do I have stories to tell. I have lived here for a year and I have had more altercations around here than any other area of town. You'll have to forgive me if you ever say something to me near here and I don't respond with the politeness you may expect.

To Dwillin's point. Bike Pittsburgh is the only educator we have on these issues and they have created a map, a commuting guide, a website and have never advocated the sort of behavior you describe. They deserve your support even if you don't agree with some of their members.

@mtnbiker25 - I've been flamed on this board for a similar position, and more than once. There are a lot of viewpoints on this topi, as you have noticed.

I hope you'll reconsider and stay in the conversation. You can't afford to take the responses personally, and by the same token, you have to extend the benefit of the doubt.

You can't help change things if you don't stay in the conversation.

You can't start something like this and then sign off.

When people yell at me from cars, depending on my mood, I yell back. That's ridiculous. I don't yell at people on bikes when I'm on a bike either because I am not very fit and am still a fairly new commuter. I ride because my husband and I only have enough money for one car. I sometimes have to get off my bike and push it up hills. Sometimes I don't go places (like the bridesmaids dress ride) because I seriously doubt I'm strong enough to get there and back. I treat 4 way stops like yellow lights and roll through, proceeding with caution, because if I dont, its really freaking hard to get started again. sometimes I dont signal because I can't let go of the handle bars. Would you like to criticize my riding, dear mntbiker25? I'd love to hear how you think I can improve the overall thinking of all drivers towards all bikers. This was the point, wasn't it?

Please make a list of who is allowed and who is not allowed to speak up when they disagree with how a biker is behaving. So far, it seems that if a person ever drives a car, they are not permitted to speak up, even if they are a biker themselves. Also, "sports riders" are not allowed to make any sort of comment about a "true" rider. Is there any further way we can Segerate and separate the community?

I ride a bike to work ocasionally. When I'm walking around downtown, I often see bikers zipping in and out of traffic, between cars and running red lights. Am I allowed to speak up even though I'm merely a "walker" and not a "real biker"?

I'm very concerned and unhappy about the knee jerk reaction to "cage drivers". The biking community wants respect from those "cage drivers" but doesn't seem willing to give that respect to them. The prevailing attitude I'm seeing here is that "cage drivers" are to be automatically ignored and dismissed when they speak to a cyclist. Like cyclists are somehow above reproach.

Yelling shit at a perfect stranger, regardless of how you or they are transporting your respective bodies probably won't get you positive results, and certainly isn't going to lead to the desired outcome.

Please make a list of who is allowed and who is not allowed to speak up when they disagree with how a biker is behaving.

1. The police

2. Bueller?

You can speak up all you want, you just can't demand you be treated with respect when you do so.

I don't agree with yelling at anyone on the road, unless it's a situation where they can't hear you. This is mainly because I never know if someone's got a weapon on them, whether it be a gun or a U-lock. Even then, I personally don't think it's going to change much of anything, esp. in this city, which is filled with poor examples of commuting, whether it be by bike, car, or on foot. People don't take well to being criticized by strangers, let alone people they know well. While we DO need to do something about poor commuting habits (texting, running red lights, cutting in and out of traffic), scolding fellow commuters to their faces unfortunately isn't that successful. And it doesn't matter that I get just as angered by "salmon" or "weavers" as I do by texting drivers or oblivious pedestrians....scolding someone at close range only makes them feel more defensive, whether it be a car to bicyclist, or a bicyclist to a car.

And, for the record, I don't agree with flaming anyone on this message board because y'all are nice people and we need all the help and input we can get to make this city a safer and more civil place for everyone, regardless of how they commute.

Just throwin' that out there.

"At the same time, there was no behavior Mntbiker25 described in the biker that struck me as inappropriate."

I'd like some clarification on this, specifically regarding the Swissvale/Race situation. I'm assuming the cyclist was headed south on Swissvale and turning left onto Race. As rsprake's link shows, there's a dedicated left turn lane. We don't know whether the cyclist was in that lane or not, just that he didn't signal and turned left (east) against the light.

OK, if he's in the left-turn lane, I can see how not signaling isn't a big deal.

But I don't understand how running the light there when turning left is supposed to be safer. When the light is red, there can be westbound traffic coming under the busway there and turning south. You can't see it and it can't see you. This seems like a situation where running a red light would be particularly dangerous.

Similarly, the cyclist heading south on Swissvale had a dedicated left turn lane to turn east onto Maple. A building hides traffic entering from Maple, and the curving road hides northbound traffic on Swissvale. The cyclist entered this intersection when such hidden traffic had a green light. Again, this seems unsafe to me.

Can someone who believes it's the better alternative explain the greater hazard avoided by running the red in these two cases?

The only rationales I can think of are (1) fast traffic in the adjacent lane to your right might swerve into your lane and hit you, and (2) a car in your lane might rear-end you (although on these roads, visibility for drivers behind you is fine, as the road is straight). But neither of these seem convincing compared to the risk of being hit by a car you can't see with a green light.

Can someone explain the rationale for turning left on red in these two cases?

I don't think cyclists will get much respect from the driving community until the cycling community starts policing it's own ranks and stops bending traffic laws to suit it's needs.

Gosh. Where to start? How about, the flaw in this reasoning is that there is an identifiable "cycling community" that somehow accumulates points that can be traded for "respect" from the "driving community," which is another precise category, and that the "driving community" will actually behave in such a programmable manner.

First, as a normative matter, this is wrong. The "cycling community" —scratch that, I prefer to talk about individual cyclists. A cyclist deserves reasonable accommodation on the public roads whether or not he or she has in the past run stop signs or red lights, or violated whatever traffic law. Does the "pedestrian community" not deserve respect from the "driving community" because it regularly violates traffic laws, as of course pedestrians do all the time and everywhere and almost every chance they get? Of course pedestrians deserve respect—individual pedestrians. Because, just like a cyclist, a pedestrian deserves to be treated as an individual, not as a representative of some larger group. Being afforded reasonable accommodation on the roads is something you are entitled to as a citizen and a human being, not because you are trading in points of past good behavior that a larger artificially defined "community" has accrued on your behalf.

Second, as a descriptive matter, I think this claim is also misguided. It sounds superficially appealing, sure. But it should also be a testable proposition. Let’s consider a city where in some measurable fashion there is more “respect” for cyclists than in the past. I would posit Pittsburgh as such a place, actually, based on my five years of living here. Maybe you might look at Portland, Ore., over the last 15 years, or NYC over the last 10 years, maybe other places, too. Now, has this increased “respect” come because cyclists as a group have suddenly become obedient to traffic laws? Or has the respect and increased mutual accommodation developed because, as a first instance, properly designed public infrastructure has been put into place that is far better suited to people using different modes of transportation with different needs, yet confined to the same roads and pathways, and that thus has resulted in reduced conflict? I know what I think is the true cause of increased accommodation between drivers and cyclist. Of course this is somewhat a chicken-and-egg question, and I also believe that simply greater numbers of cyclists can help by familiarizing drivers to cycling (and studies have shown this). But in any event, I do not think that transportation solutions are driven, in the end, by endogenous increases in traffic law obedience.

I believe that the solution to driver-cyclist interaction is primarily a question of public infrastructure and public transportation design, not a question of manners and morals. It would be nice if the latter were true, as it would be much cheaper, and also because it satisfies our urge to tell stories about how the “cyclist community” is acting bad and therefore should feel bad and won’t get “respect.” But I don’t think that is either accurate or helpful.

I'm sorry, I don't know the specific intersection you are talking about, and you may be a wonderful human being for all I know, and that cyclist you saw may be a reckless jerk. Many people are. Some of those people act like reckless jerks on a bike, some act like reckless jerks in a car, some act like reckless jerks as a pedestrian. But to frame the question primarily as an issue of one “community” needing to show “respect” to another “community,” is to miss the wheel for the spokes.

I believe that the solution to driver-cyclist interaction is primarily a question of public infrastructure and public transportation design . . . .

+1 That being said, it's not the only solution. However, it's a big part of making things better.

@jared - cyclists are certainly not above reproach, but then again they also don't kill 40,000 people a year like drivers do. I could care less if people in cars "respect" me, I just want them to not kill me.

I'm 100% certain you see people in cars doing illegal things all the time - do you "speak up" to them too? It's entirely up to you whether you think chastising people on the street is an effective strategy, but at least be consistent about it.

And, @mntbiker25 saying they're not going to support Bike Pittsburgh anymore because a few random people dared to disagree with him/her on a message board... uh, ok... If the first post wasn't sanctimonious enough, that one certainly removed all doubt.

...especially considering that the board is open to the public, and not all posters are affiliated with, or even members of, Bike Pittsburgh.

"I don't think cyclists will get much respect from the driving community until the cycling community starts policing it's own ranks and stops bending traffic laws to suit it's needs."

I'm not a police, so I don't act like one. I don't tell other drivers how to drive, even though bad behavior in a car is much more of a threat to the public than anything a cyclist could possibly do. I don't tell other cyclists how to behave, unless they ask for suggestions, because I'm not their dad, and bad cycling behaviour really only endangers the actor.

I actually could care less if other cyclists piss off cars, some drivers are going to be pissed at someone who's following every rule in the book, that's their problem. Some people are just miserable, I can't help that, but if they decide to say something TO ME, well then, they opened the door.

I thought this post was going to be about lubricating ones' chain

I thought this post was going to be about lubricating ones' chain

And in the end, we're just yanking each other's chains.

the thing that disturbs me most about this thread is that the OP claims he used to donate to BP and now won't because of the fact that the "cycling community has a long way to go" and needs to "police its ranks". it's just one of those statements that reminds me how fickle, petty and illogical people are.

Those 2 intersections are part of my regular commute. I have never considered running the red lights there because there are not clear sight lines. Unless the light was yellow and just turning red and he ran it so he could keep up the momentum to get up the hill- that I could see a cyclist wanting to do.

Still right or wrong, I would never critique a stranger on their methods while driving, walking or biking. Maybe there are times when you stopped or arrive at the same destination and you can start a conversation. Go for it, maybe you'll have success. Definitely not something I'd be likely to do. The closest I've come is wanting to tell a rider on Penn ave to move further left and take the lane because he was hugging the curb so close that cars were splitting the lane with him and passing within inches.

This topic kind of weirds me out though because I've never had any issues at these intersections and had never thought of them as particularly bad. (Note: I go straight at Swissvale/Maple so I can't speak to the left turn onto Maple part). Still, I love Pennwood and Swissvale is okay too because they're straight and flat and cars rarely pass me. Maybe I'm naive, maybe I'm lucky, maybe I'm a predictable rider, maybe it's because I'm female. Sometimes I think I'd be better off NOT hearing how awful such and such intersection is.

@Tabby: I've found that for almost any location in the city, you can find one person who says "OMG, you're taking your life in your own hands when you go there" and one person who says "huh? it's safe as houses!"

Those two intersections aren't my favorites, exactly, but I've never had trouble there -- though I have never used them as regularly as rsprake either.

If the original poster is so closed minded that a little constructive criticism makes him feel so alienated that he must withdraw his support from bike pgh, then I say good riddance. I mean he was offended when the rider in question didn't respond well to his constructive criticism in the first place!

Actually mntbiker25, I hope you are still here and reading this and when you said you planned to withdraw your support from bike pgh you were just having a little hissy-fit. I am not going to agree or disagree with your position (though I do have strong opinions on the matter at hand) but you can't withdraw your support from this great organization just because some folks criticize your opinions or methods.

Maybe if we all chip in a few extra dollars, mntbiker25's absence won't be felt to BP's budget. I'm sorry for the loss of a voice in the discussion, but when strangers with strong opinions air them in heated public forums, toes will get stepped on, and I think everyone's entitled to "take their ball and go home" as it were when they feel the need. Cutting out BP... pretty uncool, but hopefully when the dust settles mntbiker25 will see things differently. Ultimately it's their decision.

This kind of reminds me of when the SUV pulled next to me on 48 and stopped all traffic and yelled at me that I was stupid and suicidal for taking one of the lanes, he felt justified by starting "You know, I ride a bike..."

Looking back at my personal incident, the thing that sticks with me is - what exactly was I supposed to do? Never bike that way again? Get off the road then and there, call a taxi, and stick to trails? What would have satisfied that person and allowed me to get to work on time that day, or indeed by bicycle on any day? For me, was riding in a car that person's only acceptable answer?

Turning back to the conversation at hand, what would have satisfied mntbiker25 at the time? An apology? An immediate change in behavior (if possible)? Would s/he have driven through there again to see any lasting change in that particular cyclist? Could a productive conversation be had during the brief interlude of a red light, assuming both parties took each other's words in the most constructive possible light? I think it's safe to say that particular cyclist isn't a regular poster (or doesn't want to be recognized as such) - but there are literally thousands of people who ride bikes in PGH who don't post here. Was the post here to get that cyclist's attention? Garner sympathy/agreement from the other posters here?

Interesting to note: while more than one person above has pointed out that the general "cyclists" in Pgh are not a cohesive "community", this thread was posted under the sub-heading "Community".

Since no good has come of the original encounter, or this thread so far, what good can come of this? Any?

What good can come of this? Well, I'd say there are about 20 people on this thread who've brought their ball to play and only one who's taking theirs home. That was fairly typical of where I came from, and if that's any measure of a community, I'd say we're fairly typical and doing OK. Carry on.

I'd like to apologize to Mntbiker25. There was a harshness in my reply that I don't belkieve is appropriate on this board.

At the same time, I still do not think anything he described was particularly inappropriate on the biker's part. It's possible the cyclist was inappropriate, obnoxious, and unsafe, but Mntbiker's description doesn't really capture that.

I thought Mntbikers behavior with the cyclist questionable. I was offended by the tone and language he used to describe the cyclist and "talk to" the cyclist on the forum. I don't apologize for posting either of those things, but I was far harsher than I needed to be.

At the same time, Mntbiker, please remember, I'm just a guy on the forum here. My opinions are my own.

Until I renew my membership, I'm actually not even a member of Bike Pgh (SHAME on me). None of the bike pittsburgh staff or board members have posted to this thread. They would be very hard pressed to moderate the forum at a level that would prevent hurt feelings.

As to the intersection. When I follow that guys route (or how I think he went) I wait at the top of the slope on Pennwood until the light is going to change to green for me, then blast through there.

I haven't often turned up Maple. I have a vague memory of seeking sanctuary on the sidewalk and pushing a "walk" button to get through there in that direction.

Even though I think of myself as catuious, I know that I have come down Maple and said to myself "I can get away with this," then immediately realized I had done something obnoxious and dangerous. (shrug) It happens.

There are different ways to approach those intersections. It's not a great bike place. There are clearly times where prudence and patience battle it out.

I'm guessing the rational for going through those lights is same as many bikers use when running red light "I can see there is no danger in going through the light right now, but if I wait for it to change, there will be dangerous traffic that I'd have to deal with." I don't know if this was the biker's situation or not.

Just this afternoon as I as biking up Race to make the right turn on to Swissvale Ave I moved into the center of the right turning lane and had a driver, screech his tires while right hooking me. I was aware of his maneuver and was able to manage not getting hit, but if someone would have immediately after asked me to ride my bike better I may not have been the most open to the conversation. Just sayin,

I love how these threads go though. Someone posts something annoying then leaves the conversation, then we all talk amongst ourselves.

...I moved into the center of the right turning lane and had a driver, screech his tires while right hooking me...

I wonder if he would have done that if there was a cop sitting at the intersection.

I don't think it would have mattered. Edgewood generally has good enforcement of speed and stop signs, but I don't think they would have thought this was a problem. The traffic signs encourage right turning vehicles to keep moving up and around the right hand turn.

Mick, I'm not sure all the intersections and turns you're thinking of are the ones described in the original post. You're talking about waiting at the top of the slope on Pennwood, but both the intersections where the cyclist made a left turn against the light are pretty flat.

Here's a map I made showing the cyclist's route, as I understand it, with the two blind left turns marked. (I wonder if your "wait[ing] at the top of the slope" comment referred to the right turn at Race onto Swissvale? That was where mntbiker had his conversation with the cyclist, but not one of the turns mntbiker was criticizing.)

As I mentioned, if there's some subtlety that makes the cyclist's actions reasonable and safe, I'd like to hear it. But from what I can tell, right now, it seems the cyclist was behaving in an extremely unsafe manner.

So I understand how mntbiker was tempted to try to do something, seeing a fellow cyclist behaving so recklessly. Perhaps there was nothing he could have done that would have been effective. Or maybe if enough people tell the cyclist he's behaving dangerously, he'll consider changing his behavior.

Question for those who advocate doing nothing: Is there any cyclist behavior sufficiently dangerous that would make you speak up? Racing a train to an intersection, say? Cycling on Route 28 at night, with no lights, all in black, reflectors taped over, on the wrong side of the road, weaving around the speeding cars going in the opposite direction? Or is your attitude "I'm not the police or that guy's dad, not my business" no matter what?

Personally, I've not yet spoken up about any dangerous cyclist behavior I've seen, though I've never witnessed any as dangerous as what mntbiker described. I'm not sure doing so helps, especially if you're not actually on a bike at the time. But maybe it does sometimes.

"Or is your attitude "I'm not the police or that guy's dad, not my business" no matter what?"

Speaking strictly for myself, yeah, pretty much.

The only caveat would be if someone is doing something that endangers an uninvolved third party, like say an idiot going 25 mph on the Jail Trail when there are kids and families toodling along, yeah I'd probably get involved in a situation like that. But if you're only going to kill yourself, race a train, ride in black with no lights, go at it if that's what you like. I've done enough stupid shit in my time to understand that unsolicited comments would not have caused me to alter my behaviour.

Here's a crazy idea. How about, both on the roads and on these message boards, everyone just stop behaving like jerks?

heh - I agree with you JZ.

edmonds - if you see me personally on the road doing stupid shit, pretty please speak up? nebby strangers have saved my life by airing concerns while the little voice in my head is saying "la la la... great idea! la la la..." There's intentional stupid shit, and there's ignorant stupid shit, and though it may be giving myself too much credit, I like to think that I'm more guilty of the latter than the former when stupid shit is concerned.

It takes the whole village to keep all its idiots alive and well.

Stupid shit doesn't endanger only yourself. I've been nearly hit a few times over the last two years by n00bs doing stupid shit. AAMOF, if I think about it, I think I've had as many close calls with SS cyclists as with SS motorists recently. Presumably, it wasn't the first time they'd done SS. Social pressure does work, and it probably works better coming from the seat of a bicycle than when it comes out of a steel box.

Jz, you're a crazy romantic.

@Steven- the left turn lane on Pennwood (to turn onto Race) starts up the hill from the intersection. I too try to wait as far back as possible so that I can take advantage of coming down the hill as I make my turn when the light turns green.

About speaking up- it takes all kinds I guess and in a traffic situation I'm not going to be the type to tell someone what I think about what they're doing. It has less to do with me thinking it's the job of their parents or the police and more to do with it just not being my personality.

I am not going to try to explain why or why not these intersections are dangerous, or why this rider was riding the way he did. I have already explained why I probably would have reacted the way he did.

We see how it comes out when someone tries to tell someone else how to ride or drive. I know it's never worked for me to tell a driver that what they did was dangerous, so now I just "STFU!" If you don't have time to say, "Hi, how are you doing," then you don't have time to strike up a conversation about safety.

@ Steven - that route is exactly what I had thought. Right about where your blue line starts, there is a short but steep slope. You can wait for the light to change. Years ago, I knew the timing, so I would start before the light changed.

If I was at either of those lights and I was far enough forward to have good sight lines and the only traffic was coming up from behind? (particularly erratically driving from behind?) I would go through a red light. If the conditions I set were all met that would be safer than staying at the light and waiting for the drivers to (recklessly) catch up.

Now, particularly at Pennwood and Race, I'm not completely sure that there *is* a safe place "far enough forward to get good sight lines"

Lately I've had good luck with speaking to drivers about behavior I thought was unsafe. Part of it, I'm soft spoken and polite about it "I felt that you passed me too close for it to be safe," with my tone conveying a kind of "It's-not-my-place-to-tell-you-how-to-drive-but..." attitude.

With bikers, the only comments I've made are to people with insanely bright head lights pointed to my eyes and blinking. IMO, a light pointed at the eyes and blinking doesn't have to be very bright to be insanely bright.

Two times I've gotten bad responses and one surprisingly good, where we both stopped and talked. Some of the bad reception was due to me being aggressive/hostile - which I became aware of when the person I spoke with said "Let me know how I can do it right."

Had I been in Mntbiker's position and I felt that it was a safety issue that the guy did not signal, I would have said something like "Hey, I would have signaled in that situation. It struck me as dangerous that you didn't. Pisses drivers off, too."

I believe there was a conversation a while back on this board about how to tell someone they need lights, and I feel this result might be extrapolated to a good way to give any constructive criticism:

Pretend you think they usually do right and accidentally messed up this time.

Hey dude, I think your lights are broken or you forgot to turn them on, cause I could barely see you [even if you can secretly see they have none at all].

Then again, catching up with someone and saying "I think you forgot to signal back there" sounds a bit strange. So maybe not. Shrug.