BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

in this magical world where cars have to sit behind bikes when there is only one lane of travel in a direction, and bikes have to sit behind a long line of cars at traffic signals

everyone loses.

poor guy was probably cold, wet, and wanted to get home, i'm sure if he would have had the option to sit in a dry truck in traffic while obeying all traffic laws with his bike in the back he would have taken it.

Yeah, so if it's a little uncomfortable, all rules and expectations go out the window?

If we expect cars to respect us, we can't just bust down the middle of the lane because we're cold and wet.

You may have misunderstood my description: traffic on Negley at Penn is two lanes - he was between the two outbound lanes (hence "Pac Man" - get it?). I have no problem riding behind a bike. I do have a problem with a cyclist making a "third lane" for himself.

And believe me, if I could load a bunk of lumber or ten sheets of drywall on my bike, I would ride it everyday.

I expected a Pacquiao thread. Oh well.

Lane splitting is legal in CA so it's not like it's a completely foreign or inherently dangerous practice. So, I'm curious why you "have a problem" with it? I realize it's not legal here, so if you object on that basis that's one thing. I think it's completely ludicrous considering cars are allowed to "lane split" every time they pass a bike in the same lane.

Bikes fit in small spaces.

If we want people in cars to respect us we need more people riding bikes. I learned a long time ago to just mind my own business. If someone wants to ride like a maniac so be it, so long as they aren't putting me in danger by doing so.

i actually thought this thread was going to be about "pacman" jones doing something horrible to a cyclist or woman or animal or something like that... glad it was just this

re: yourkidsloveyou

i understood the situation, i do it often. the "third lane" or "lane splitting" phenomenon is one built out of a simple desire that bikes and automobiles share - getting where you're going as fast and safe as your vehicle allows. when you're in a car (or truck) your advantage is speed, when you're on a bike your advantage is size. people will use these advantages to achieve their goals as well as they can. using their size sometimes bikes can go faster than cars, using their speed sometimes cars go faster than bikes.

sometimes people choose not use their advantages with safety in mind... maybe they aren't in a hurry, or maybe they feel something is outside their skill or comfort level (passing a bike in close quarters, riding up a dotted line)... good for these people! but realistically lane splitting is probably at the end of the list of what we should be worried about in the cycling community (and maybe off the list, as it's legal some places).

as for cutting off buses... shame on him.

PS http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxwgUUxJPaI

@salty: I guess I "have a problem with it" because the next time i'm riding and (@rsprake) "minding my own business" (@mark) "legally", and some a-hole runs me off the road with his car because he has seen some guy on a bike "lane sharing" one too many times and has decided that all cyclists are jerks.

There is a real double standard here. Bottom line, to get respect, we gotta show respect. "Lane sharing," whether is is legal in CA or not (and I'm pretty sure E. Liberty has not been annexed by the Golden State, regardless of how lovely it is this time of year) does not look respectful to people in cars.

It looks dangerous - and believe it or not, most people in cars (and trucks) are worried about cyclists safety.

@mark: your rationale for "lane splitting" is pretty thin. We all have a desire to "get where we are going as fast as our vehicle allows." However, that desire is is not absolute, and is in fact highly regulated by speed limits, stop signs and lights, etc., intended to provide for the public safety. Similarly, cyclists need to adhere to limitations on this desire.

Keep in mind the "best response" for This BikePgh Poll taken last year.

I'm with AtLeastMyKidsLoveMe. Yeah, it can be uncomfortable or inconvenient at times to sit in traffic behind cars, but it's not always safe to pass. I'm all in favor of safe passing, and completely against unsafe passing - no matter whether we're talking about the passer being a car, a bicycle or a pedestrian.

It's not the lane splitting that I have a problem with - it's cutting off another vehicle that was making a legal maneuver.

ALMKLM, to be honest that sounds like a bunch of "bike inferiority" nonsense. The double-standard is that it's legal for a car to pass a bike in the same lane but not vice versa. How is it any more dangerous to pass between two lines of stopped cars vs having a stationary line of cars on one side and one passing you on the other?

If "some a-hole" is going to "run you off the road", that's because they're an a-hole and has nothing to do with anything any biker does. If you're worried about irritating people in cars you're going to have to stay home because a large number of them feel disrespected by the presence of a bicycle on the road whether acting legally or not.

To be clear, I don't lane split (although sometimes I do filter forward, I'm not sure if that's legal or not - FWIW there is no explicit law against lane splitting either AFAIK) and I'm not trying to justify breaking the law. My issue is with the "blame the victim" stuff, it's bad enough to have to hear it from non-cyclists.

...and some a-hole runs me off the road with his car because he has seen some guy on a bike "lane sharing" one too many times and has decided that all cyclists are jerks.

This is where, in my opinion, your logic is flawed. One does not decide to all of a sudden run someone else off of a road simply because another user of the road is an asshole. If that were the case it would be a destruction derby on our roads every day.

What I'm saying is that someone who buttonhooks someone else is the a-hole. Whether the perpetrator is driving a bicycle or a car is irrelevant. I'm opposed to people being a-holes.

I'm not sure what "bike inferiority" means. And I'm not "blaming the victim." I'm merely trying to highlight what I perceived to be dangerous and damaging behavior by one cyclist that could have consequences to the cycling community as a whole.

You can't have it both ways. You can't choose to follow the rules when it suits you, and break them when it does not. Not if you want the respect of the other users of the road.

What my point is about the "asshole driving me off the road" is this: cyclists tend to develop an attitude that all cars are out to get them because of one or a handful of "car rage" incidents, or harassments, etc. Fair enough.

However, it doesn't take that many incidents of cyclists flaunting the law or the rule or whatever before certain drivers develop their own attitude about cyclists. And unfortunately, for some it only takes one incident, and then all cyclists are viewed the same as that one cyclist who did something he ought not to have done.

And then we all (cyclists) suffer the consequences.

I'm kind of on board with JZ.

Last week I was riding toward town on Penn through the strip, and stopped at the light at the end of the 16th st bridge. I sensed a truck behind me, wasn't being agressive at all, but I turned my head, saw a right turn signal, made eye contact, and waved him around in front of me. I could have been a douche and held to the letter of the law, but if nothing else, it got him out from behind me, and probably made his day go a little smoother. Law does not exist to dictate every human action, individuals have to exercise common sense and common courtesy for things to work.

And "filtering forward" IS lane splitting, which I think is ok when done appropriately.

I almost always sit behind a line of cars at a stop light. The exception being if said cars decided they needed to race me to the stop light, crossing the double yellow, passing me too close, and just barely pulling in front of me 20 feet before a red light. duuuur. Happens every day. The extra 500 ms they saved being one vehicle ahead the stop light makes any difference?

Maybe the bus cut this guy off? Maybe it was stopping every other block and he was sick of waiting behind it? School busses are not exactly renowned for their acceleration, but do tend to spew tons of nasty diesel fumes. Lane splitting a bunch of traffic at a stop light seems like the least of our communal infractions. At least he stopped for the light!

I know most of the turf I ride on. I know some of the lights.

I'm not going to split lanes like that if I think it might be dangerous.

On the other hand, I'm not going to wait in a 100 ft long line with 10 people in it that's there because some folks want to carry a ton of steel and plastic with them. And I'm not going to refrain from splitting lanes when I think it's safe because there might be someone in a internal combustion vehicle that will resent it.

+1 Mick - well put.

@ALMKLM fair enough, and I agree with JZ about not being an a-hole in general. Appeasing motorists doesn't have anything to do with it and I'm certainly not going to walk (ride?) on eggshells in fear of doing something that might piss a mighty motorist off. Once we have 100% compliance with 100% of traffic laws by 100% of the road users you might have a complaint, but I see cars doing far more illegal and dangerous things on a daily basis and sincerely I doubt they're sitting around on the AAA message board discussing how it affects cyclists' respect for them. I'm not arguing that one thing justifies the other but I do think your apparent outrage is completely misdirected.

Cyclist inferiority @ Sheldon's site

I finally looked at this thread, and ironically, I was thinking about this sort of stuff on the ride to work this morning.

My riding habits have changed radically in the last few years. I almost never split lanes, and rarely pass traffic at a red light (I will, however, do it if I can a safety advantage at the light and easily pass the cars since I ride with two panniers). Basically, I ride in a manner that attempts to respect all of the road users in the hope that they will treat me the same way. I know other users (peds, cyclists, AND drivers) won't, but that's not an excuse to be a jerk.

Since I've started riding this way, I've noticed two things:

1. I am hassled by drivers far less. Yes, some people are just jerks, but I like to think by riding in a mellower manner, I'm not bringing out anyone's latent jerk-ness.

2. I have a more pleasant ride, because I'm not constantly trying to get ahead of cars/cyclists/peds. So what if it takes me an extra ten minutes to get home. That's ten more minutes on my bike.

Also, and I've said this before, some drivers are jerks, regardless of your mode of transportation. When driving in the city, I generally follow speed limits, actually stop at stop signs, and don't run yellow lights (note my driving habits attempt the whole respect-other-users thing, too), and I get honked at, yelled at, and flipped off as much as (if not more than) when I'm on a bike.

I'm trying to figure out where in this discussion would fit a potentially bone-headed stunt I pulled a week or so ago.

Date/Time: Marathon has just ended. Place: Sixth St Bridge, inbound. Situation: Traffic is at a standstill. I am taking the (left) lane, waiting (semi-)patiently with 100 cars.

I decided I'd had enough of this, and unlike everyone else, I *did* have an alternative. I dismounted, walked in front of an idling car, threw the bike up on the bridge structure, vaulted onto it, jumped down onto the sidewalk, took the bike down, and coasted off.

Legal? Ummm...dunno. Safe? Safe enough. Drool inducing? You bet. Creating good vibes for the cycling community? Probably not. Time saved? Easily 10 minutes.

I'd assume the bridge sidewalk would be considered a multi-use sidewalk, unless bikes were specifically prohibited via signage.

The whole look-I'm-road-user-wait-I'm-on-the-sidewalk-I'm-a-pedestrian situation is a huge gray area for me. I feel like I should stick to one or the other (and usually, I stick to the road), as it is less confusing to motorists and pedestrians. That said, Stu, I may have done the same thing in a similar situation.

it would have been much cooler to ride up the bridge structure, but that might have been a bit crazy.

I did a similar thing on marathon day near forbes and craig, although I walked my bike because there were a lot of peds.

In my younger days I used to jump on and off the sidewalks at will, run all the lights, and probably get from Shadyside to Pitt twice as fast as the cars. Now I realize the error of my ways - but mainly because I think riding on the sidewalk is dangerous for for yourself and for pedestrians. .. getting stuck in a stream of cars still doesn't sit well with me, especially considering all the complaining we hear from the other side.

Here's a question, presume we get the Idaho stop sign/stop light rules passed here, how does that affect your views on lane splitting and/or filtering forward?

Here's a question, presume we get the Idaho stop sign/stop light rules passed here, how does that affect your views on lane splitting and/or filtering forward?

I'm not sure that changes anything, does it? I assume the stop sign allowances are for quiet intersections. I can't imagine being allowed to approach a traffic-laden intersection and treat the stop sign as a yield sign is very safe. The stop light rule might change things a bit, but still--if there's enough traffic that I need to consider passing on the right, I'm guessing the intersection is too busy for me to safely treat a red light as a stop/yield sign.

If faster moving bikes cannot pass slower moving cars, then faster moving cars should not be allowed to pass slower moving bikes. You know, 'cause we're all equal road users. Never going to happen.

@salty: "outrage"? C'mon. Where's the love. Whaddya say we kiss and make up. How 'bout a hug.

I really appreciate the opportunity to have this conversation. It is rare for differences to actually be discussed. It has deepened my understanding for sure.

The other day I encountered this on the highway, with some crotchrockets flying through the cars inbetween lanes at 80+ mph. Not the same situation at all but I thought it was pretty incredible. And stupid.

I'll split the lanes if cars are totally stopped. But it's kind of a gamble. I've been caught in a bad situation doing that before.

today i lane split many times in my three hours on the road, notable times that I think you would have to be crazy not to:

coming down the hill outside the coop, there is a 5-10 minute backup there on a regular basis due to a poorly timed light and people parking on the road outside the store, the traffic coming the opposite direction comes in spurts due to the light, probably passed 25 cars, i doubt anyone cared.

going down penn after braddock towards wilkinsburg, there are a series of 4 or so lights that are ambiguously 1 or 2 lanes, cars always mess this up, i always hug the curb and ride alll the way down.

thomas blvd, after the middle island stops there is a series of stop signs and lights that back up cars 4-5 deep at every single one... i just cruise down the side, usually keeping pace with one car that guns it between the lights/signs and then waits in line at the next one

i also got run off the road by a prius trying to pass me and getting squeezed by a bus, and almost hit by a crazy woman in an SUV who was on her cell phone and just didn't see me... then she did and swerved and almost hit someone else... oh well

I had multiple opportunities to lane-split in Downtown this afternoon. Did so only when there was plenty of space between moving traffic and the other cars (right lane was often parked cars). Even where it was wide enough, I refused to do so when there was a coach-sized PAT bus askew between the driving and parked lane on Smithfield Street. I refuse to make a maneuver such as that when buses are involved.

Also, when I do it, and it's not that often at that, I tend to position myself somewhere between the lead stopped car and the next in line. When the light turns, I let the first car make his move. This way, even though I still might get right-hooked, I'm aware of it happening. I get the impression that sometimes if were to pull right along side the lead stopped car they still might not see me and the potential damage of a right hook would be much worse.

I have no problem with bikes riding on bridge sidewalks, as the roadways themselves have limited to no shoulders and people tend to speed up on bridges. Also, there aren't any road crossings on the sidewalk and the sight-lines are usually excellent. These are perhaps the most safe sidewalks to ride on in all the city. You just have to be careful if it is narrow or if construction crews get overzealous with their use of sandbags with construction signs.

There are a lot of grey areas with these matters. Pittsburgh has certainly made great strides towards bike-friendliness, but we're still at the stage where I think a total 100% adherence to "the bike is a car" legality and staying off sidewalks is impractical, if not a little foolish. My logic is to just use common sense and keep in mind your safety AND the safety of others.

And don't let a few jerks try to convince you otherwise.

Witnessed five minutes ago: two guys trying to filter forward at 5th and Shady. One hit the curb and fell over. Dude. If yer gonna do it...

witnessed 20 minutes ago... two cars try to lane split a merge due to construction... lots of lols:

1. screaming through windows while still hitting each other

2. squished cones

3. me going around both of them once they stopped

4. guy on the outside trying to squeeze in yelling "what were you thinking!"

Awesome.

witnessed yesterday:

cyclist on Liberty through the Strip weaving between lanes multiple times during rush hour, often riding right down the center line, cutting cars off here and there, making a final quick left turn right in front of on coming traffic that was speedily approaching. Quite fittingly, he happened to be helmet-less. I think my nerves jumped out of my skin and got run over on the pavement somewhere in there.

(my motto) Be the change you want to see in the world, and let go of the behavior of strangers whom we can't reach to change.

You would notice if you were driving and a cyclist behaved in a manner you approve of. Other drivers (to the extent that they see anyone around them and aren't yapping on cell phones of course) will notice that cyclist too. It's not like non-asshole cyclists are invisible.

My girlfriend went to the store friday night. She said there were a ton of bikes and they were taking up a whole lane of Penn Ave. I said, "were they obeying the road rules?"

She said "They were stopped at a red light".

Thank you huge pack of bikes promoting a good image!

That may have been the keg ride.

i think this should be called lane sharing instead of lane splitting. there was a TON of this yesterday sue to how many cyclists were on the road because the motorists were not being idiots and allowing room for lane sharing... this was great and safe for everyone.

i didn't read this whole thread, so forgive me if this isn't completely relevant, i just always liked this, from PennDOT's website and Bicycle Driver's Manual:

GETTING THROUGH TRAFFIC JAMS

Traffic jams don’t have to stop you -- that’s one of the biggest advantages of bicycling in the city. But in the tight quarters of a tie-up, take extra care. Stopped cars in a traffic jam present the same hazards as parked cars: blindspots, doors and unpredictable starts and turns.

If there is an open passing lane, use it rather than thread between cars. If the street is completely plugged, pick your way forward slowly and with your hands on the brake levers. Remember, any car door could open!

If you’re in a traffic jam, you can be fairly sure that the cars will not move, since they have nowhere to go. But if there’s an open driveway or parking space into which a car could turn, you have to assume that it will. Look to see whether the car’s front wheels are turned. Move away from the side of the car as you pass, and try to get the driver’s attention as you approach the front of the car.

When cars are stopped, but not completely bumper to bumper, be very wary of cars from other lanes cutting across in the gaps. Stop and look before you move out into a gap. Be especially careful if the vehicle you’re passing, like many vans, doesn’t have a hood you can see over.

Don’t pass a long truck or bus in a traffic jam unless there’s a full, open lane next to it. If you ride close to the side of such a vehicle it may begin to merge toward you, leaving you no way to escape.

As you approach an intersection, change lanes to the same position as you would in normal traffic. Before you cross in front of a car to change lanes, make eye contact with the driver even if the car is stopped. When you reach an intersection, wait behind the first car at the traffic light. Don’t move up next to that car; drivers don’t always use their turn signals, so you don’t know for sure which way the car will turn when the light turns green.

These traffic-jam tactics are reasonably safe, but in some cities it may not be legal for a bicyclist to pass on the right or ride between lanes of traffic. On the other hand, it’s usually legal for you, or any driver, to cautiously disobey normal traffic rules when the road is “obstructed.”

That last line deals with the ambiguity of bicycles in traffic. the rules and law and the roads themselves were written and designed for cars. bike law and infrastructure is an afterthought, and incomplete at best.

i don't like the mantra, "same rules, same roads, same rights" or whatever it is. it should be "better rules, better roads, better rights"

From PenDOT? Interesting.

http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Internet/Bureaus/pdBikePed.nsf/BikePedHomepage?openframeset&Frame=main&src=InfoBikeManual?readform

chapter 9

Yeah, and while on one hand, I think it's great PennDOT realizes cyclists should enjoy certain (safe) advantages over autos, it would be even better if this was a part of the pedacycle code.

somehow i have never read that particular wording, but i knew it was legal to some extent. i lane shared two police in east liberty and was a little nervous about that last week... this makes me feel better.

So, this dovetails with my idiot motorist moment yesterday.

I was riding with a small group of people down Butler St near 56th. People were generally keeping to the right, ish, avoiding the door zone but following the law, and being extraordinarily courteous. We were stopping at red lights, etc. I was encouraging people to "filter backwards" at red lights, to allow the motorists to advance. We were NOT holding up anyone for more than a few seconds at most, and certainly operating within the law.

Then some ass started angrily blasting the horn behind us. Anyone would interpret that as a threat. The riders I was with started to get panicky and tried to scatter, but some held their line. As was their right, they were riding at the "ordinary speed of traffic" and keeping right in accordance with the slow-moving vehicle law.

The motorist blasted past us, screaming out his window "GET OFF THE ROAD YOU JAGOFFS!"

I did get a little angry at that, so I tailed him to the next intersection in order to explain to him that clearly, being an ass hadn't really helped him at all.

The driver was an older white guy, probably in his 60s, with wireframe glasses and a big nose. I was really tempted to escalate, but I generally kept my cool, though the more he screamed at me the harder it got.

"YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO SHARE THE ROAD!!"

Well, no, I was passing someone, and anyway, that's not the law.

"THAT DOESN'T MATTER,%*&&()@))!(*@&$" (honestly, he was just ranting, not making any sense at all.)

Sir, you can't scream and threaten people. If you don't like the way I ride, call the police.

CALL THE POLICE?!?! I *AM* THE POLICE!!!

(yeah, sure, crusty. Retired, maybe.)

Oh yeah? What's your badge number?

630!!

Where?

and then the light changed and he sped off, shouting WHERE ELSE!?

and sure enough, he had FOP plates. Sorry, I didn't get the number.

Technically, this was an assault, though since he didn't actually threaten to maim or kill me, I don't suppose I have much recourse.

During snowmageddon I had a some guy play chicken with us (in our car) on a road with only one lane plowed. We were about 2 blocks deep, only a few spots away from our house, with nowhere else to go. He had just turned, but refused to back up (there was a cleared intersection about 3 car lengths behind him). We just sat there for a few minutes with headlights shining at each other, wondering wtf this other guy was going to do. I got out to ask him where he was heading (a driveway/parking spot?), and if he wouldn't mind backing up, in my most polite tone. As I got up to his window, I noticed the older guy driving was some sort of cop/firefighter in full uniform (in a personal car) talking on his cell phone. He starts screaming at me for not backing up and told us we're going to jail. I asked him what he would like us to do, and he told us we shouldn't have "kept going". Whatever that means. I got back in and we backed up a full 2 blocks with this guy a following us with only 1-2 feet of space before we got down to an intersection and this guy sped away. There are definitely a few power-trip personalities in the protect and serve crowd.

@Lyle, I just wonder what this guy would have thought or said or done if you had been a line of horse riders instead of cyclists. They stay to the right and move even slower than cyclists.

Maybe that's the question I would ask the next idiot I interact with who acts in a similar manner.

If your horse is really coöperating, it'll look at motorists like so to calm them down:

@stu; During the keg ride on friday a very frustrated guy in duquene light truck asked what was going on. I told it it was a bike ride. He said he was on the way to an emergency and need to get through. At this pint there was a SOLID three or four blocks of bikes in front of us. I just shrugged my shouldes and moved on. When I mentioned to the others I was riding with we all agreed - what would he do if it was three blocks of stoped cars? Horses, cars, bikes? We all deserve our space.

I had a guy honk at me while I was coasting down Liberty behind a bus and a truck. I was going the same speed so I took the lane. Not sure where he thought he was going to go if I moved out of the way.