BIKEPGH MESSAGE BOARD ARCHIVE

It is next week. For some reason, a bunch of people (including myself) thought it was yesterday.

Yeah, me too. I even had a couple of tweets about it. Well, good. Maybe I can talk it up a bit more in the coming week. I'd really like to see a 250+ CM in Pgh sometime.

Cool glad I didn't miss the ride.

i bet 250+ will happen this summer sometime, i haven't been in forever though

I've been talking with some people, and we decided this month we are going to push for a law-abiding ride.

If we can get enough people to push for stopping at lights, letting cars pass, etc... it should be a very nice ride capable of pulling big number this year.

If this month's ride goes like last month's (despite our current planned efforts), this will be the last Critical Mass for me.

I've never been to a critical mass. I avoided them for the very reason ndromb brings up. I can't imagine I am the only one. A law-abiding ride would be most welcomed and I would be happy to ride along.

It always struck me as backwards that we were trying to make our legal claim to the roads while complaining that drivers aren't following the law when they pass too close, or right hook us, etc. Then once a month we ride around like idiots running red lights, taking 4 lanes, rolling through stop signs in a massive group, and blocking traffic for no reason other than to block traffic. That isn't exactly the message I want to send.

Oh boy.

Helmets and now Critical Mass, what's next, fixed gears are bad for you?

i think your best bet with this is to start a first friday of the month critical mass, or a monday night ride, or something else that's law abiding... much better use of your effort... pgh needs more massive group rides anyway...

there are several monday night rides in other cities, first monday of the month, that are really cool, chill, and fun. the concept of holding a law-abiding mass ride on the busiest, most angst ridden commuting time of the week/month is a really flawed one. just something to consider.

We do a first-Friday-of-the-month midnight mass. It has been going on since last June and has been very successful. Every so often some people show up that want to run lights and block cars, but if enough people keep on the few, they eventually abide.

My theory is, if enough people come to mass and start yelling for people to, "stop at the light," and "let the cars pass," we can have a successful ride. The whole thing is, we need a bunch of people to speak up.

Anyone want to join me and test my theory this month?

i think if you ride in the front and stop at every light a lot of people will follow suit... managing a group of 100+, all of whom are obeying lights, gets to be really slow though, especially if you're only taking one lane

I don't know the last time we had 100+ people.

I think it's a good idea to demonstrate that yes, it's possible for people to share the road courteously and equitably. Trying to improve Critical Mass is a fine idea. I see no reason that such a demonstration shouldn't happen during rush hour. But I think that trying to make that happen this week might be premature. I'm afraid you'll wind up frustrated.

It's not quite as simple as saying "okay, we're all going to obey the vehicle code now". I have led rides like that before, and it's difficult to do once the group gets bigger than about 6. It was even hard with 20, who were 100% committed to the goal of riding lawfully. The social pressure to "stay with the group" after it gets split by a light is almost overwhelming. And even if a few riders stop for the light, when somebody behind them whips around and through, then somebody else follows, then the waiters just look foolish, and eventually they give in, and follow along, and then what's the point? And it's actually even more chaotic than just giving in to the mob rule. Chaos and confusion leads to accidents.

Critical Mass corks intersections because it's the lowest-skill way to keep a big group of riders safe, with nobody taking responsibility for leading. Starting and stopping groups of riders together takes skill and practice.

I suggest finding a group of about 10 like-minded riders, who are 100% in unison, and scale it up from there. How many people are you getting for your Midnight Masses? I am really busy the next three weeks, but I'm on board for after that. And I'd be happy to talk about tactics over a beer, except that the only evening I have free is this Tuesday.

After the tweed ride and the support that many gave for such a themed ride, we are planning another for July (not tweed, seersucker saunter actually). Details will of course come later, but this seemed a good thread to plant at seed in.

I like the balance of traffic abiding and critical mass both, and think promoting both gives members a choice as to what they want to participate in.

We usually have between 20-40 people for midnight mass.

Interesting dynamic playing out here. On the one side seems to be a group of cyclists who are trying to promote cycling as a legitimate means of transportation, as well as recreation. They advocate playing within the rules, presenting a more positive image, and generally seek to welcome novice and weekend riders into the cycling community.

On the other hand are cyclists who want to exercise their right to ride without a helmet - regardless of the safety or image concerns; to ride en-masse in disregard of stop signs and lights and traffic laws; who express at best mild disdain for any rider in gear or on a bike that is too new, too expensive, to trendy - or too old, too cheap or not trendy enough.

As someone who has recently re-discovered cycling, I care what motorists, law enforcement and those kids on the overpass think about all cyclists. In their eyes, we are all the cyclist darting in and out of traffic and blowing off lights, we are all the mob blocking intersections and aggravating motorists.

We are all targeted equally.

So the next time that motorist runs you off the road, the next time someone hollers at you to get off the road, or that kid drops a brick on your head - don't take it personally. We all look alike.

But maybe we all ought to give some thought to how the choices we make on a bike reflect in the eyes of others. And how are actions affect not only motorists, but our fellow cyclists.

Whoa, holy cow, ALMKLM, there's a whole lot going on there and I'm not even going to start going into all that.

Tweed was awesome, a few lights were run in the interest of keeping the ride together, a lane or two was taken, ok. But I think most motorists even got the joke, that we were out there to have fun, not necesarily to make a political statement or incite conflict, and everybody got slowed down a little; but it was cool.

That's really what critical mass OUGHT to be, but you get a few, mmm, agitprops out there looking for a tussle, someone needs to have the cojones to call them out and cut them loose, let em go. I don't care, I'll fkn' do it.

edmonds59 - please forgive - wasn't necessarily responding to the mass ride thing, but more to the tone that comes across the various threads, whether bike v. motorist, bike v. car, helmet (or not), brick v. cyclist... and mostly cyclist v. cyclist.

Tweed ride sounds like it was a lot of fun.

I'm cool with the level of law-breaking on the tweed ride. It was relaxed, a few lights were run (at the end of the mass) out of the interest of keeping everyone together, which was fine. We stopped at a fair number too. Downtown, we got a little broken up, but we made it back together. The people in the front, even if they had a green, could tell if the light was about to change (from the flashing ped signals) and stopped and waited for the next cycle, which seems to be a good way to go about it.

I don't think we took more than one lane on the tweed ride, when there were two available. Single file for more than about 10-15 riders is a little difficult and I don't suggest it. On the other hand, the only reason I see for taking up more than one lane rolling down Forbes is to piss off motorists. I guess if thats the goal then have at it, but personally I think we have enough enemies out there already.

No, ALMKLM, it's cool, sometimes I myself like to incite from within to promote spirited discussion.

Dwillen; "On the other hand, the only reason I see for taking up more than one lane rolling down Forbes is to piss off motorists. I guess if thats the goal then have at it, but personally I think we have enough enemies out there already."

+, +, +, etc.

No one said anything about single file. You can easily stagger 4 riders in less space then a car. on a road like Forbes or Fifth, I'm not saying we have to stick to a lane, but I'm saying we don't need to take all of the lanes.

If the situation arises where it would put cars dangerously inside the group, I think it can be appropriate to get the rear of the group though.

However, what I am really pushing for is just courtesy--I'm not saying we need to feed 80 bikes through a stop sign single file one at a time.

On one CM last summer, the group got split at a light when a cop in a full-regalia cruiser was the lead vehicle on the green side of the light. I opted to stop, and the 35 or so behind me did so. Might've been one or two stray cyclists who blew the light in front of the cop, but he opted not to bother them. He got the green and simply drove away. Whether he would've been cool with us corking him or not, I cannot say; I only mention this to illustrate that we CAN stop at a light, mid-group, if we really want to.

I want to hear more about this midnight mass, ndromb. Midnight bike rides are my favorite. Peaceful and enjoyable.

Maybe instead of trying to change critical mass why not host your own ride. You could even start it at the same place and at the same time, that way people can choose what ride they would like to go on and then everyone will feel the same about what ride they choose to go on.

I've never participated in CM. Do most people ride at the same speed? My physical and mental/emotional recovery from wrecking still has me cycling pretty slow, but it'd be cool to come to one of these.

saltm513:

I guess you can say people ride at the same speed... I sometimes think of Critical Mass as a parade--at least during the first portion of the ride. If you stick around for a while people start to drop out, the group gets smaller, and it gets a bit faster. It looks like the weather is going to be nice this Friday, so I imagine a lot of people will show up. I'm sure it will be a fun ride (especially if we all work to stick together and be courteous riders as ndromb says). Also, when you are surrounded by so many other bikers it makes you feel pretty safe and it's very encouraging--the motor vehicles can see you a lot better, and there will always be someone there to help you out.

I hope I make it to this ride--I have a final exam around 4

Mustion, basically, we meet at 11:59pm on the first Friday of the month. We try to leave within a half hour to give stragglers some time. It is a slightly faster paced ride and we usually have some nice climbs. However, I make it a personal mission to make sure no one gets left behind. We usually ride 15-30 miles depending on the night, with the group slowly dropping off around 2-3a. I hope to see you there next week. If you make it, come introduce yourself (I'll be on a green bike clearly labeled "bike").

Willie, you have a good point, but I think most of the red-light running, car-blocking, etc is mob mentality. I think there are only a few bad seeds in the group and everyone else follows them. If we seed the group with people that share the same ideas of how mass should go, I think we can have a big impact on the attitude of the ride.

Saltm, I'll probably be on my tall bike, so I'll be right with you riding slow.

skipdip, I hope to see you there!

Yeah, Willie I'm not going to go on some crusade to try and change Crit Mass into Crit Manners. I really would like to see some huge CM's this year. I've had some super fun experiences on CM, I even brought my 14 year old son a couple of times, he thinks the people are a friggin' hoot. Especially in the Armstrong tunnel. Try and get that response out of a 14 y.o.

I've also had some very souring experiences from the whole thing. It's really hard to believe in the concept of the thing when some zealot is angrily screaming "bike riding is fun!" with clenched teeth and crazy eyes at a clueless driver.

At this moment I have to say the sour feeling is a tiny bit stronger than the good feelings.

"Anyone want to join me and test my theory this month?"

(someone tell me how to quote on this board to make it stand out. i'm used to [q][/q] and

I'm in, but for May (i'm out of town the last friday in april).

I've felt the same way as dwillen, I haven't gone to a CM ride in Pittsburgh for the same reasons. Ndromb's experiment has me rethinking my attitude towards it, though.

I always aim to ride smart, with one eye on survival, and the other on fun and momentum. I run red lights when it makes sense, but I always slow down and take a look before I do. Stop signs are always yield signs. In my neighborhood (Brighton Heights) I know them all; I blow right through at high speed if I can see that it's clear and there are no obstacles. I always stop at lights with cars downtown, though I do go through Penn & 12th with a quick stop most mornings. It's out of synch with 11th and a general pain in my ass (i won't pass on the right to do it, though).

I like the whole "ride intelligently and predictably, and ride in traffic" philosophy. Pedestrians don't stop at stop signs or put on turn signals, and they don't have speed limits. They're not hazardous enough to need them. We weigh a little more with out bikes and move three times as fast, but we're sitting up higher and can see a lot further. We're only margianably more dangerous (the knuckleheads riding on the sidewalks downtown excepted). We're a lot closer to 'Pedestrian' on the Car--Pedestrian Traffic Spectrum.

CM seems like the biggest regular bike ride in Pittsburgh, and it seems to attract people who are passionate about biking it Pittsburgh. It seems like the perfect opportunity.

Ndromb is right, individuals in a group tend to follow the ones at the front (don't believe me? try it this week: step in the road at a crowded corner downtown against the light but when it's clear to cross, and then suddenly stop. what does everyone else do?). A few riders riding smartly can set the standard for the whole group. I'm in for the experiment.

I'll be up front with ndromb on the last Friday in May. Black and silver Specialized, drop bars, and a white helmet (bike pgh stickers on the rear fender and helmet).

Matt

I'm a little afraid to try your experiment, Mattre. On a Monday people might just knock you down and walk over you, or just throw you in front of a car.

(someone tell me how to quote on this board to make it stand out. i'm used to [q][/q] and

Quick lesson in formatting: Use angle brackets, i.e., greater-than and less-than signs. Use bracket EM bracket for italics, and bracket STRONG bracket for bold.

Example: italics

Looks like:

less-than

EM

greater-than

the word italics

less-than

slash (regular southwest-to-northeast slash)

EM

greater-than

Same but STRONG instead of EM for bold.

With that said, I just copy/paste what I want to quote, and stick the EM tags on either end.

Thanks Skipdip and Ndromb-- that's good to know. I think my blue Nishiki and I will probably make it out. Though this is unpredictable Pittsburgh, the weather forecast looks quite perfect. It will be comforting to bike in a group. Looking forward to riding and meeting some folks. -Stef

(someone tell me how to quote on this board to make it stand out. i'm used to [q][/q] and

Quote:

...are there tags or do i have to use html?)

You can also use < blockquote > (without the spaces around it).

I'll be out there this friday being courteous along with Nick (ndromb).

Kinda of ironic - trying to get a critical mass within the critical mass to inspire courtesy.

If you aren't part of the Pittsburgh Critical Mass Group on Facebook, you should join.

Everyone has the ability to send group wide messages. I will be sending out a group wide message later on in the week to re-introduce the idea behind critical mass as a reminder.

Midnight Mass sounds like a blast...I'll try to make it the next time I have a free first Friday. (checks calendar)That would be August. Crapola.

Reddan, we'll see you in August!

As long as the weather holds up I'll be there this friday for my first CM.

I should be there also.

Myself, my roommate and my fiancee will be making our first CM this friday as well.

I think I'll make this my first CM as well, unless post-semester-ending celebrations get in the way.

Could I find more about the event details on this? I backtracked looking on the events calendar on this website, but found conflicting times. I'm assuming it's the 5:30-7:30 pm slot, not the 2:30-4:30 one correct?

I get the meeting at Dippy outside the Carnegie Museum in Oakland. Any details of the route? I suppose the route could be amorphous/spontaneous as the ride could seemingly go only until all but a small group remain riding around.

ndromb, where does midnight mass meet? i can't make it this week - i have to work. but that job will be no longer after this weekend so hopefully i could make it next month...

Impala26, there is no fixed route. I've been on maybe 10 of these rides, and we never take the same path twice. We usually loop Oakland (Forbes, Craig, Fifth, McKee-or-one-of-those, Forbes again) and then go somewhere. Often we end up on ECarson and/or Downtown. The last one I was on we ended up in Manchester. Once we kinda ended by the 40th SB. We did Herr's Island once. I recall heading through Friendship on another ride. There's just no telling.

Gather 5:30, shoot the breeze until 6, and then we somehow all start riding.

I haven't done a Midnight Mass yet. The 10-mile ride north on DUI-filled highways afterwards has never been a big draw.

Midnight Critical Mass meets under the dinosaur at the Carnegie Museum and Library in Oakland, as does the rush hour Critical Mass. If you find yourself out of town on any given last Friday, you can look for the nearest Critical Mass on this website: http://criticalmass.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_rides

Midnight mass is the first Friday of the month (next one is May 7th).

Critical Mass starts meeting around 5:00-5:15, and leaves anywhere from 6:00-6:15.

Like Stu said, there is no set route. It just goes where it goes.

It seems like there is going to be a good showing of like-minded massers this month. I am looking forward to it, I just need to get some grips brake cables for my tall bike.

Thanks for the info guys. I hope to make it. I could probably hang on with the group for awhile if we're doing general big loops right in the area because I live within about a 5 minute bike ride of Dippy to my place in South Oakland. Even if we ended somewhere odd, Oakland is central enough that it's not very far from anything.

After CM think about circling back to the start, WYEP is having a concert at Schenley Plaza, band - Elizabeth and the Catapult (I dunno), Emily Rogers band. That's usually a chill fun time.

Top!

Who's going to be there? The weather can't get much better than today.

Unfortunately, I'm not. No bike. Chain problem.

My bike's at Thick.

I'll be there. Riding to Oakland from Larryville for the first time. Should be superfun.

I'll be showing up at Dippy at around 5:30... is there also a midnight critical mass tonight as well and is it at the same place?

Midnight Mass is first Fridays. CM is last Fridays.

I wanna make it to one of this but not tonite!! Saving my juice for the race!

Although I should hopefully be less-sore for May 7th - Midnight Mass

Critical Mass was pretty good, insofar as, platooning. Stopping at intersections, single lane grouping and holding intersections open through red lights. Not letting the H3 Hummer pass was a nice touch, though...

Oh and Ian on his hybrid is taller than Nick on his tall bike. Dunno. Just an observation.

Our mini-mass that broke off to obey laws was awesome. We rode with bumper bike, pushed a broken down suv off the street, stopped by filmmakers for a bit for drinks, and finished off at OTB.

It was great meeting you guys, I'll see you at midnight mass!

Awesome picture, Rob!

I agree, our five-person, helmet-wearing, blinky-blinking, SUV-pushing, bumperbike-included massette was AWESOME.

I had a ton of fun on the five person mini-mass. Meeting bumper bike was the highlight of my week.

Here is a lousy cameraphone video of Mick on ndromb's tall bike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9fcDenhDG0

bumperbike + critical mass = all kinds of effin' awesome. i'm there next month for sure!!!

Mini-massing was a total blast. It was so great meeting some bikepgh-ers in person. And hanging with our friend

I was the one early on in the back yelling at people to stay in lanes.

Some chaos ensued going down Fifth around Halket and Craft, I think once we made the first loop around Oakland things improved, though it seemed like there was the constant turmoil of the people in front pushing forward and hoping the back riders treat the group as on big vehicle (think of it as a funeral procession) and the folks in the back wanting to not run red lights and stops signs...

All in all though, it was a great time, and I think the most positive-viewed areas we went through was Penn through the Strip and Downtown and Carson Street.

Mini-mass was awsome. See you next week for midnight mass - mom will be pleased I'm at church!

I'd like to thank you guys again for sticking with me. Honestly, I feel like an ass for having to call people out on this stuff, but I feel like it is needed. We all get viewed the same, so when a group of cyclists do dumb things, it hurts us all.

Speaking of critical masses, just a half hour ago I saw a critical mass of sorts composed entirely of motor scooters. Not hogs, choppers, or power bikes, but motor scooters of the Vespa and vintage and classic variety. It was the first of its kind I've ever seen. I've seen processions of motorcycles, but not scooters like this.

There had to be at least 50 of them, I saw them right here in South Oakland coming up Dawson from Swinburne and turning right onto the Boulevard heading up into Schenley. They were content to follow the road rules individually as well, splitting up from the light and rejoining as best they could and about 90% of them were wearing helmets. I thought it was cool enough to share anyway.

Thought I remembered something about this on Facebook.

Via PIper's Pub:

Piper's Pub welcomes all participants in Pittsburgh Vintage Scooter Club's 10th Annual Scooter Rally this weekend! Have a great time!

Critical mass was awesome, as soon as we got out of oakland. Since this was the weekend where finals ended and kids moved out of dorms, tempers were high, especially the parents. Combine that with a Pens game and rush hour traffic, I felt very uncomfortable with pissing off so many people. However, once we went to east liberty and the strip, I had a legitimate great time. Maybe I'll come next month and just pick up the group on Ellsworth. (by the way, it was me and my fiancee with the great Pitt kits)

PVSC! It is all vintage Italian scoots--Vespa, Piaggio, Lamberetta.

I was going to go to that rally, but I had to work (and they don't care for my modern direct injected Italian bike). You should see the Scoot'n Yinzer rallys--it is a bunch of retired guys on maxi-scooters.

Great time.

NICK! thanks for letting me ride your tall bike!

I wish the the law abiding mini-mass had stayed with us.

Critical mass is an ongoing event. It isn't going to instantly change character because half dozen folks show up once. Regular attendence by that same small group might make a profound change, though.

I think we were all happy to leave.

Mick, you should have come with us! It was a blast!

@ndromb Mick, you should have come with us!

Uh.... i wasn't invited...

It's tough for me to get to these due to family responsibilities, and last week was a particularly rough day, but I wish I was there with you law abiding massers. I'll get out there one of these times.

Nick et al, you guys are on the right track. Lead by example and people will get it. Big thumbs up.

We just kind of kept going straight on Ellsworth when everyone turned because I was getting extremely aggravated with a few people in the group. It just happened that Stef, Mark, Dan, and Rob were behind me.

I understand the criticisms of Critical Mass, and don't want to get into it again. I dug this up that I wrote a while ago, that still seems pertinent to this discussion.

...

Critical Mass is all about community. The connections made through this monthly ride in cities across the world has led to partnerships that have forged systemic change for the better of all cyclists. Many people neck deep in urban cycling advocacy can trace their first meeting with like-minded folks to a given Critical Mass, myself included. Since the inception of Critical Mass as we know it back in 1992 cycling access has improved across the country and around the world due in part to the collective work of the CM community, not in spite of it.

With news outlets in American cities sporting helicopters to report on the recurring, utterly predictable automobile traffic of the morning and evening commute it is an uphill battle to convince me that the momentary inconvenience that drivers may experience from a passing Mass has any real, lasting negative impact. Nevermind the actions of individual riders—there are assholes everywhere, and no reason to believe that cyclesport is absent of them. Lumping all Critical Mass participants together with a few troublemakers is as logical as railing against all drivers because someone cut you off once.

...

You can read the whole point/counterpoint here: http://www.urbanvelo.org/issue2/urbanvelo2_p58-59.html

I remember reading that in Urban Velo.

Inconvenience is one thing. Offensively (not defensively, like trying to get the rear of the group through an intersection) blocking cars is dangerous for both parties, not to mention stupid.

I think CM last week was especially bad.

Regardless of inconvenience, I think showing drivers that cyclists think they are exempt from the rules is counterproductive.

Here is something I posted on the CM FB page:



I just had a customer at my work who does wholesale delivery. He and one of his drivers witnessed CM yesterday in Oakland and Shadyside. He said, "They put these signs up,'Share the Road.' If you aren't going to respect my rights to the road, I'm not going to respect yours."

Keep in mind, this was a complete stranger who had no idea I am a cyclist.

He brought this up when I mentioned I lived in Oakland. This is a guy who drives for a living and has employees that drive for a living. To me, it is solid proof that there are consequences. Luckily, I wasn't busy and was able to have a decent conversation with him about it.

Many of you know I used to be all about CM (and disregarding lights). What really changed me was a chat I had with Erok during CM last September during the G20 Summit. Although it is fun, and can bring people together, it is still counterproductive the way is was last Friday.

The positive effect of CM on cycling has been huge. CM was started by a small group of passionate individuals who wanted to effect change, the approach they developed I'm sure was what they believed would be most effective in the given context. Many others joined in who believed in the cause. I think CM has gotten the attention of the public discourse.

What we have how is a small group of passionate individuals who want to effect a positive change. The context has changed, progress has been made. Time to evolve.

I wholeheartedly accept the concept of critical mass. In theory it has every positive aspect people mention for cyclists in Pittsburgh and around the world. However, in its current state, I believe it is a significant disservice to the cycling community.

The first thing out of anyones mouth in Pittsburgh when I mention cycling is "those asshole cyclists run red lights and stop signs all the time!". Well, sure, there are a few of us who individually do that on a regular basis, but I think the vast proportion of us don't. At least I don't. My issue with critical mass is that we uphold this image on a grand scale. There are a few people who think critical mass is "fuck up the traffic friday" and do everything they can to achieve that goal. Drivers notice. Shoot, even people sitting on a bus notice. I've had my butt planted on a bus seat sitting behind CM in Oakland a few times listening to the people grumble about the "idiot bikers". I've participated in mass in a number of cities, and not often am I really disgusted with what I see. This last Friday was an exception. There were a few folks who insisted on running every light possible and blocking extra lanes on Forbes and Fifth. If you're in SF and you have 3000 people, fine.. take up the whole road. When you only manage to bring in 40 cyclists because everyone else is sick of the BS, then maybe you shouldn't. When you're in the front of a mass of cyclists and the light turns yellow, perhaps you should stop instead of corking the intersection and yelling for everyone to "keep going!" It isn't just the cars you are messing with (cars that will right hook you, pass with inches to spare and honk next time they are behind you) but the pedestrians too. I felt like the worst human on Earth when I went through a corked intersection on red and some lady was trying to push her stroller across the cross walk with her little 2 year old walking next to her. I couldn't really stop either, since the person behind me likely wouldn't notice and either go around me and hit them, or run right into the back of me. Wait till some masser goes through a red light and plows over a 2 year old in a crosswalk. No way I want any part of that. We aren't brighting their day, I can promise you that. Making more enemies doesn't seem like the greatest cycling advocacy move we could make.

My proposal? If the people that ride up front made an effort to keep the group together, they could stop at yellow lights and let everyone bunch up, stop at stop signs and let a few cars through and wait for everyone to bunch up. We could take only one lane when appropriate and allow some cars to pass, in this case communication about WHICH lane would be very helpful. IF the mass is tight and there are no gaps and the light happens to turn red in the middle or end of the mass, fine then cork it and finish going through. If drivers see a big pile of bikes navigating the roads being even a little respectful it might make the positive impact we all hope it will.

CM last Friday started out horribad, but once we were out of Oakland and Shadyside the communication was there and we were able to clear intersections through green lights and bunch up into a single lane to permit motorists to pass. Perhaps it's the routing, but we were quite mannerly through East Liberty, Bloomfield, Lawrenceville, Strip District and Downtown.

Yea, I participated until I said sorry to peds and motorists about 2 dozen times, then I just said fuck it and followed Nick. I figured if biking was stressing me out more than sitting on the interstate stuck in traffic I probably needed to not continue. Glad to hear it got better though.

+1 dwillen

The point was driven home to me early Sunday afternoon at Smithfield & 7th Ave. I chose to stop for a red, braked rather hard actually, and with my wet brakes overshot the stop line by several feet. In backing up so as not to be in the way of 7th Ave traffic, a pedestrian had to choose which side of me to walk, and said to me, "Thanks for stopping. At least you know the difference between red and green."

So, yeah, what edmonds59 said, the context has changed. There are enough cyclists out there who screw the rules, so we need to set a new standard or else change the rules, and it's a lot easier to do the former than the latter.

I honestly don't think anything other than more people biking will change that perception. No one complains to each other about those pesky people walking across the street or crossing at a don't walk signal.

More people are biking all the time, and more people biking by the law will change the perception. If there are 30 peds waiting to cross a street, and 1 guy runs in front of a car, most people would think, of that individual, what an idiot. Noobs coming in need to be shown by example, and friendly suggestion, follow the laws, wear a helmet, use lights.

When a "critical mass" of riders is reached who follow laws then we all won't be lumped together as whackos.

My perception:

This was the second time I've ridden a CM.

The first time was a few years ago. It was totally obnoxious, people got arrested (and deservedly so). I didn't want to return.

This last Friday there were voices to calm things. There were some obnoxious moments, particularly at the beginning. That is different from being totally obnoxious.

For sure, there was some abusive riding.

Taking all the lanes on 5th avenue come to mind.

I did notice, like dwillen, that we blocked off pedestrians in Oakland. More so than cars, even.

I don't think anyone wanted to block pedestrians, but we did and obnoxiously. It wasn't deliberate. I don't know if taking all the lanes on 5th was deliberate on anyone's part or not.

So, yeah, we were jerks.

But then for a few folks to come into an established event and expect the regular attendees to change their behavior instantly?

At best that is unrealistic. It borders on being devisive. In my opinion, it set the stage for the extremes in CM to be more extreme next time.

If you want to work with critical mass, you have work with critical mass.

Critical Mass is not an organized ride. It will always have some element of unruliness to it.

I don't know how decisions are made by this group, nor how to influence it. I'm confident that a small group of people could make a mark on it.

I was separated from the group when the "law abiding" folks took off. I'm not sure if I would have gone with them or not.

Oddly enough, the vast majority of illegal, obnoxious things happened before the "law abiding" folks left. It's hard to say if that was due to a confrontational vibe or not.

The final leg of the trip was through the southside. There was strong peer pressure in the group to prevent people from passing up cars and to keep the group together. As a practical matter, this meant following laws.

People were happy to see us.

******

I disagree with Brad - I don't think critical mass has done shit for the status of cyclists.

I think that as ndromb's example and dwillen's logic point out, CM has the ability to hurt the cycling community. Getting people pissed off at us won't change things.

Even if someone is sympathetic, there is no answer to their query, "What do they want from us?" Showing drivers that cyclists will be obnoxious when they have the power to doesn't encourage the electorate to empower us.

*****

I think it's worthwhile to make an effort to shape CM in Pittsburgh into something mroe positive than it is. I think this forum can be an instrument in that.

But look at the mechanics of how that can happen.

A small group being dissatisfied and leaving early in one CM ride - is that going to change anything? I don't think so.

@dwillen. You think the behavior of the people in the front can change things? I agree.

If you believe that and if it is important to you, *BE* at the front. Month after month. Even with that, you can influence change, but argument is ineffective. Critical mass is direct action. Not leader driven.

Change will take time.

Agreed with Mick and dwillen. I was screaming my lungs out early on trying to tell people to stop hogging all the lanes on Fifth to little avail. I think part of the problem is that the most riders and the most harrowing part of the route was RIGHT at the beginning. Things are going to be disorganized right at the outset, but with the most difficult stretch being right at the beginning it just compounds the issue.

I thought we were at our best through the Strip, Downtown, and South Side. Like I was thoroughly suggesting, if we kept tight and didn't pass cars, Carson was going to be awesome and it most definitely was! I would also chalk up some of our "better" parts due to the fact that there were fewer riders, allowing us to clear intersections (relatively) safely.

When it's a small group on slow streets with stops signs and traffic lights, I'm actually okay with a little "cheating". With Fifth and Forbes though, there is no way we shouldn't have stopped individually at the lights. Mick is right in that we need leaders from this very forum in these cases. There is no way we couldn't have worked it out so that, okay the group got split, so lets ride slower or even stop so we can rejoin. Or, failing that, let's do a set number of loops around Oakland, following traffic laws, and then reconnoiter (stop) back at Dippy after said number of laps. Then proceed as one group, rejoined.

We need ideas like that, and frankly I love the loop idea because it could get lots more people involved (random people on bikes in Oakland more likely to see it and join in the fun) and motorists seeing us following the traffic laws, would also convey a strong message. It would also allow more people to join in for a shorter ride so they wouldn't stray far from their home turf if they wanted.

This shouldn't be a hostile political message, it should be a peaceful law-abiding one. The sooner some people like those in this forum take it upon themselves lead/organize this instead of the "fight the man" hipsters that were doing so, we might actually have an amazing thing here.

You're not going to change the fight-the-manners, and you're not going to improve things by screaming, and I have serious doubts about trying to "lead" the thing. It's supposed to anarchy, after all.

I think the only way things are going to change is for each person who wants to ride by the rules to connect up with one other person and talk up the issue, convince one new person each ride. It has to be a person to person thing. I actually think it would be a pretty easy sell, most people want to be happy and have fun.

I totally agree with Mick and dwillen that law abiding leaders should be at the front for riders to follow their lead. As far as getting split up, I really don't see this as being problematic, provided that there remain a few to a group. Perhaps it would even serve to our benefit (advocacy-wise) if there were multiple groups riding throughout the city, abiding by the laws and riding with traffic throughout. This past Friday was the first CM in which I've ever participated (and I think the largest group I have ever ridden in prior to this was 9 people). It felt good to ride with a group, but I hated feeling like a jerk in the beginning when things started out a bit nutty- I guess things can typically be a little chaotic in the get-go when folks first peddle off without much direction. I don't know if it's because I got hit or got smart, but among my recent cycling goals is an effort to piss off as few people as possible. Abiding while riding is true cycling advocacy, and I feel as though the safety for us all is at stake in this. I used to just wait for traffic to slow, and continue to ride through lights as I felt comfortable to do so, regardless of what was technically legal. I felt that this was part of my advantage of riding a bike, and not driving a car. I have since tried to consider how this effects drivers, realizing that if I piss someone off, it serves to enhance their hostility towards cyclists, and I don't want that aggression to manifest in hitting someone else. To me at least, this is Critical.

Okay guys... is this a ridiculous idea? Why don't we organize an alternative to critical mass, on a different day, maybe even not Friday when rush hour traffic is so heavy (and angry)? The majority of you seem to be on the 'law-abiding' side, why don't you organize something else? And have it meet somewhere other than the clusterf**k of Oakland, so that any growing pains at the beginning aren't being forced upon hordes of drivers and pedestrians?

Thoughts? Or is CM simply too untouchable to go against?

Haa haa...I love the *anarchy* of doing a counter-CM! I'm in!

edit:

Sorry to everyone who's totally into CM as it is... Generally, I think people know when they're being cool and when they're not acting right.

I think just getting a bunch of folks together and just riding around is a lot better than heading out with an attitude. Whatever...that's just what I think.

just the notification that "yes, there will be law-abiding people on this ride" is enough to persuade many to join in. the message I'd like to get across to fellow cyclists is "what are you in such a rush for?"

@mustion Last year a few folks tried to start "Critical Manners". It, uh, didn't go anywhere.

On "Critical manners":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_Mass#Critical_Manners

It's hard to say how much of a success critical manners rides are.

Example: There is a page for Seattle's RideCivil that says 2nd friday of the month, but a brief, perfunctory search doesn't turn up anything on forums or calendars about it. Is it ongoing? Don't know.

Anyone know of an ongoing critical manners, anyplace?

I'll try to make any critical manners rides.

As far as Critical Mass reformation? The nature is that changes will be slow and -at best - partial success.

IMO, that's still worth a bunch of effort. Methods like Edmund59's are good.

Why do I think it's worthwhile? Why do I think it can be a success(even partial)?

Because 1) I think everyone agrees that CM should reflect the community - and 2) I think Pittsburgh is a very polite, accomodating community (not sure that #2 would have universal agreement).

Googling turned up a Critical Manners next month in San Francisco and a regular one in Fort Wayne.

Convincing cyclists to engage in a regular group act of civil obedience seems very difficult.

There is always the ever-present third option. If CM-ers wanted to cause trouble, there is a much more effective, and much more legal, way to accomplish that. Note: I do not endorse this.

And that is: To form into groups of four, spread out around the city, going every which way, take the lane, and rigidly adhere to every traffic law, especially stop signs (planted feet) and red lights. Not so much going slow (not the point) as simply being part of traffic, and forcing cars to acknowledge them as legitimate traffic.

But be beyond reproach.

Oooh, Nano-mass. Genius. Sweet.

I like that idea, not that I would endorse it but I might go. I think people expect bikeists to ignore the law. I was stopped next to a bus that was unloading kids and some girl leaned out the window and asked me what I was doing, "Waiting" I said "Why?", "I'm waiting for everyone to get off the bus". "But your on a bike". "You ever been hit by a bike?" I often find when I obey the law while riding some people get annoyed.

StuInMcCandless, I often wonder how frustrated people in cars would get if I put my feet down at every stop sign.

I encountered two people who told me, they do not care about bicycle advocacy, and the whole reason they come out is to piss off drivers. After that I branched off. Partially piss-off and partially saddened.

Mick, I think that the confrontation between the two camps caused a lot of the issues. I think that when ever there is a disagreement in a group, it tends to polarize the group.

Honestly, I have given up on CM. I was wrong in my hypothesis, and our experiment last week proved it.

However, a few of us discussed a "Critical Manners" of sorts (I hate the name).

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2nd-to-last Friday. Meet at 5:30 at Dippy.

****************

I often wonder how frustrated people in cars would get if I put my feet down at every stop sign.

Sometimes I do this around Oakland, sprinting in between the signs.

Nick, I'll see you there on Friday May, 21st.

On the stop sign issue I rarely ever come to a full complete stop unless it is a four-way with cars basically approaching on all sides. The fact is, if cyclists behaved EXACTLY as they were supposed to with regards to traffic laws, drivers would still complain thinking bikes are "too slow and in the way".

My general policy is this:

Stop signs: Stop pedaling coast and brake. How busy the intersection is dictates how much I slow down. By stopping my pedaling I'm hoping that drivers see that I do intend to come to a stop if necessary.

Traffic Lights: If red, ALWAYS a full stop. I often get a slow jump on the light (if traffic is slow or light) by paying attention to cross-directional traffic light and crosswalk signals. I always follow the "No turn on Red" except occasionally not when I encounter time-based ones (No turn on Red 7AM-4PM). For those I use judgment. Schenley Drive and Roberto Clemente Drive on the south end of Schenley Plaza is a good example of this. Also, if I'm at the head of a line, or there is a free lane or only one car to pass I will move slowly through an intersection if it's set with the "All Walk" phasing.

Sidewalks: Admittedly, I think it's sometimes impractical in this city to avoid sidewalks completely. Bridges are an excellent example of this. Anyone going over a major bridge for the first time should probably use the sidewalk, unless it is really hard to access. I also use sidewalks on some of the more nuts roadways (Fifth in Shadyside, Negley, Blvd. of the Allies/Panther Hollow Rd. in Schenley) ESPECIALLY during uphill segments. If warranted, (business area, pedestrians, narrow sidewalk, potential for people to step out from buildings/cars) I will either ride at a fast walking pace or I will simply just walk my bike. Walking a bike can actually be a faster way of getting around jammed intersections, and lets not forget that walking a bike up a steep hill is less work than pedaling it. Most important of all for ANYONE riding a bike on a sidewalk: PEDESTRIANS HAVE THE RIGHT OF WAY AND YOU MUST YIELD TO THEM, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. You can politely say "excuse me", or just be patient and walk/ride slowly behind them until you find a safe area to pass. You really shouldn't be riding much faster than a walk on a sidewalk anyway, unless the sightlines and hazards are clear (bridge sidewalks, park sidewalks).

Sure, my behavior isn't 100% legal, but I have yet to get barked at anyone for "not following the road rules." I think it holds the line well between the following the rules completely and preserving the momentum/speed of the ride, the two natures of cycling that are constantly butting heads with each other.

Oh, and I also hand signal ANYTIME I turn or merge, basically anytime I move from my straight line path in a lane of traffic.

Nick, don't let them get you down. I stumbled across this by way of another cycling site, that actually had nothing at all to do with CM, but I thought it was good, a quote from some woman named Margaret Wheatley;

"Western cultural views of how best to organize and lead (now the methods most used in the world) are contrary to what life teaches. Leaders use control and imposition rather than participative, self-organizing processes. They react to uncertainty and chaos by tightening already feeble controls, rather than engaging people's best capacities to learn and adapt. In doing so, they only create more chaos. Leaders incite primitive emotions of fear, scarcity, and self-interest to get people to do their work, rather than the more noble human traits of cooperation, caring, and generosity. This has led to this difficult time, when nothing seems to work as we want it to, when too many of us feel frustrated, disengaged, and anxious."

In order for things to break down, drivers need to be viewed also as members of the community who are frustrated, disengaged, and anxious, if not more so. Angry CM enables and continues the community disengagement.

Also, BTW title, "critical manners",,, no.

"courteous mass" ? ?

"Out for a normal ride with friends"?

"Flock of Cycles"

And I biked.. I biked so far away.....

Omg, netviln, I actually just laughed my ass off.

"flock of cycles"...gotta skip the helmets to show off the 'do:

Damn. Haunting. That's gonna give me nightmares.

It's OFFICIAL.

Facebook Page

I'm going to miss the first one because I'm going out of town, but I'm definitely interseted in this ride and will make it to future ones. Yay

Flock of Cycles is brilliant. I've marked it on my calendar and will try to attend.

Sorry, I'm really, really slow. *not getting the reference*

It's a pretty god edit (if I do say so myself).

Love the "Flock of Cycles" idea, netviln. Great edit, Nick. Looking forward to the ride.

Anyone notice that there is two cyclists stopped at a red light on the tele?

Nice photoshop dude. I dig it.

I just noticed that this month the 2nd to last Fri is "bike to work day" also, right? All biking, all day.

Anyone else doing the Midnight Mass tonight?

I may throw on the rain gear and pedal over if its not crazy pouring. No sense in being hit by cars and lightning. That'd be a bad night in the ER.

I think I am, pending how the afternoon progresses & how beer-toxicated I'm by midnight!

I'll be there. Just checked the forecast, it looks like it will be dry until early morning

If it stays dry I'll be there.

I don't know man, it looks like the shite basically rolls in right after midnight. And it could be that localized heavy stuff. I'm leaning towards no on this one...

Either way, I'll be there.

The weather.com magic radar of the future says nothing shows up until 2-3am.

What this flock of cycles is going to need is a sound system. But I don't know if I can knock something together by the 21st.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsoL7NBScNY

man I just got lost on youtube looking at bike sound systems...

bling bling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5SDHRgtjrU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGgF42D3hKM

OMG, fire! I hadn't even considered fire!

This is going to attract Saltm...

The one appears to be from Cleveland.

Hearing Caribbean accents talk about their sound systems reminds me of the birth of ragga battles. So awesome.

I don't currently have a bike with a rack, but I can probably get a system together by then. If I do it though, it is going to be ridiculous. I have some car amplifiers laying around from my time in the 12v industry... about 2000watts RMS worth.

...or I could do something more manageable. I have a 50watt stereo amplifier around somewhere.

I've got a 15 inch 1200 watt sub, a 10 inch 400 watt sub, and a 400 watt amp if you wanna go nuts.

If I can find somewhere to store it, I'll built it.

Builders mantra of the city, right there.

@ edmonds: Moth to a flame.

crazy rad!